Shadowrun

Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: Vandarl on (13:06:15/01-14-14)

Title: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Vandarl on (13:06:15/01-14-14)
I happened to be on Amazon and noticed that Run and Gun is up for pre-orders with a release date of Feb 28. Anyone know how close to real that might be?

http://www.amazon.com/Shadowrun-Run-and-Gun/dp/1936876582/ref=pd_sim_b_12
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (13:37:45/01-14-14)
Pretty much imaginary. Amazon is famous for making things up. A lot.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: DWC on (14:06:45/01-14-14)
CGL does not commit to release dates until they have the books in hand.  It's how they avoid missing deadlines.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: martinchaen on (16:35:36/01-14-14)
All that being said, do we have any official indication of which book is next? In other words, is Run & Gun the first SR5 supplement to be released, or will the matrix or magic (or something else) come first?
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Ryo on (16:49:58/01-14-14)
All that being said, do we have any official indication of which book is next? In other words, is Run & Gun the first SR5 supplement to be released, or will the matrix or magic (or something else) come first?

Your guess is as good as anybody's. As annoying as it is, CGL hasn't said a word about upcoming core books.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: PeterSmith on (17:20:49/01-14-14)
The Armor chapter from Run and Gun is back from layout, it popped up on CGL's Twitter feed. It's also a purdy chapter with a rather...uncomfortable...typo that needs to get fixed.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Vandarl on (18:02:36/01-14-14)
Hmmm, I don't see it. I will have to look harder, I am really curious what it will include.  :)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (18:25:23/01-14-14)
The Armor chapter from Run and Gun is back from layout, it popped up on CGL's Twitter feed. It's also a purdy chapter with a rather...uncomfortable...typo that needs to get fixed.
Ooooh, got a link to the specific tweet?
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: PeterSmith on (21:44:03/01-14-14)
I'm having a brain fart this evening, I can't figure out how to link to the post. The tweet was made on 10 January.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (06:34:37/01-15-14)
Check, https://twitter.com/catalystgamelab/status/421866985862205440

Now I am really curious about the typo though. :-X
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (08:21:50/01-15-14)
Pretty sure that this also popped up on their FB feed as well.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: martinchaen on (08:39:10/01-15-14)
OK, what am I missing; should there be a page there, or is PeterSmith referencing internal information. If the latter, that's just cruel :)

There is a typo in the Tweet, but it's not uncomfortable to me, at least. Peak, instead of peek. Intentional or not is a whole different matter.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: PeterSmith on (10:09:42/01-15-14)
Cruel.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Prime Mover on (13:27:20/01-17-14)
Sneak peek of of R&G cover art?

http://shadowrun.tumblr.com/post/65720357935/run-and-gun-art
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (15:25:23/01-17-14)
Quite possibly. Would like to see the complete image :)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Prime Mover on (22:52:48/01-17-14)
Would like to see tumbr mirrored over to official blog, has more regular info.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Namikaze on (01:44:58/01-18-14)
That is an awesome image for my Russian Vory troll arms dealer.  :)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (02:33:37/01-18-14)
Quote
Awwwww—form-fitting body armor will no longer be the must-have, buy-this-unless-you’re-crazy item in Shadowrun that it used to be. Them’s the breaks.
— Jason M. Hardy, Shadowrun Line Developer
*insert evil cackle here*

Nice. :)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (11:07:17/01-18-14)
Quite like the sounds of that... :) Out of curiosity, where did you stumble across that quote?
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (11:25:54/01-18-14)
On the tumblr page, 9th of january. :)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (11:42:02/01-18-14)
Ahhhh...thanks  ;D
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Mäx on (19:05:54/01-21-14)
All that being said, do we have any official indication of which book is next? In other words, is Run & Gun the first SR5 supplement to be released, or will the matrix or magic (or something else) come first?

Run & Gun is most likely the first, as it is the only one of them listed in the upcoming books section of the official site.
And Gun Heaven 3 does mention that it should come out soonish after it.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (21:56:27/01-22-14)
Some art just got posted on Tumblr:

Shadowrun "Run & Gun" Art... (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/74224445975/shadowrun-run-gun-art)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (13:53:33/01-28-14)
And some more preview art:

Two weapon illustrations (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/74841005074/shadowrun-run-gun-art)

Very happy to see that these preview samples are all in color...hopefully that hints towards a color print release... ;D
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: PeterSmith on (15:06:49/01-28-14)
Very happy to see that these preview samples are all in color...hopefully that hints towards a color print release...

I think this would be a safe assumption to make.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Namikaze on (15:09:42/01-28-14)
I really love the attention to detail in these pictures.  I'm hoping this standard of quality exists throughout the book.  Very good work thus far, CGL!
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (15:48:24/01-28-14)
I think this would be a safe assumption to make.

Well, that certainly is a nice info byte ;D
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Csjarrat on (15:58:02/01-28-14)
That thunderstruck looks awesome! Long range taser?
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: PeterSmith on (16:27:36/01-28-14)
That thunderstruck looks awesome! Long range taser?

Man-portable gauss rifle, based on its previous incarnations.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Ryo on (16:53:29/01-28-14)
Really hope they don't nerf the AP. Plenty of weapons in 4th had AP -half and have been nerfed, but the Gauss rifle definitely deserves the 'half armor, then apply AP' it had. I already introduced the Thunderstruck into my campaign punching a fat hole in a heavily armored vehicle, so I really hope that aspect is maintained.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (17:00:09/01-28-14)
With Armor having gone up, AP -half is too big a punch. Would be better to have dual AP for people and vehicles.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Ryo on (17:04:58/01-28-14)
With Armor having gone up, AP -half is too big a punch. Would be better to have dual AP for people and vehicles.

The Gauss Rifle isn't a shaped charge explosive or anything that has any reason to penetrate differently depending on what it hits, it's just a large slug of metal accelerated to ludicrous speeds until it just goes through whatever it hits without stopping. The Thunderstruck and the Aztechnology Gauss Cannon vehicle weapon were the kings of AP in 4th edition, and the increase in overall Armor ratings is all the more reason they should maintain treating armor at half it's normal value, especially with the massive increase in price it's going to have. (Considering how much more expensive every other Assault Cannon got, the Thunderstruck is going to be pushing 100,000 nuyen.)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (17:21:10/02-14-14)
Cover (http://www.shadowruntabletop.com/2014/02/run-gun-cover/) by Victor Moreno has been posted on the SR blog.

Also a new weapon (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/76650906281/shadowrun-run-gun-art) preview on Tumblr and light mil-spec armor (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/76246962388/shadowrun-run-gun-art).
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: CanRay on (18:43:36/02-14-14)
Love the cover and the new weapon, but I have to wonder if we're going to be seeing Dead Space in Shadowrun now with that armor.  :P
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (18:51:12/02-14-14)
*puts CanRay in Light MilSpec and paints it white* The sheep hunt has begun, people! 1 million bounty on the sheep!
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Digital_Viking on (19:45:58/02-14-14)
*puts CanRay in Light MilSpec and paints it white* The sheep hunt has begun, people! 1 million bounty on the sheep!

I like the cut of your jib
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (20:30:59/02-14-14)
TBH, nit too sure what too think about the armor...mire "Sci-Fi" than I was expecting...maybe just the color scheme. Regardless, am thinking some of my Infinity minis will fit in extremely nicely... ;D
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: All4BigGuns on (20:38:44/02-14-14)
*puts CanRay in Light MilSpec and paints it white* The sheep hunt has begun, people! 1 million bounty on the sheep!

*nukes CanRay afterward*

Hunt's over, I got him!
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Digital_Viking on (20:39:49/02-14-14)
TBH, nit too sure what too think about the armor...mire "Sci-Fi" than I was expecting...maybe just the color scheme. Regardless, am thinking some of my Infinity minis will fit in extremely nicely... ;D

My first thought was "Disney Infinity?"

I'm such a parent now...
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: CanRay on (21:38:09/02-14-14)
*puts CanRay in Light MilSpec and paints it white* The sheep hunt has begun, people! 1 million bounty on the sheep!
I like the cut of your jib
Look, I answered the damned question about the sheep already!
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (21:42:25/02-14-14)
Which is why we need a real sheep. :) You.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (17:33:19/02-21-14)
Preview #1 (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/126584/Shadowrun-Run--Gun-Preview-1) is up on DTRPG.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (18:41:41/02-21-14)
Awesome, SR5 Armor Stacking rules! ;D These look niiiiiiice. So if you take a Berwick Suit and an Argentum Coat fit as a pair, you'd be at 9+4 Armor.

Edit: Holy Crap @ Second Skin. Stack usually goes with the same maker but there's no same maker here, so this one needs clarification as to what exactly it can all combine with... Unless the table isn't complete here.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (18:57:32/02-21-14)
Okay, so Form-Fitting got changed quite nicely, Big Game Hunter sounds awesome for in the Barrens (essentially 18 capacity + 2 more armor than an armor jacket, and easily available even in Missions), cute.

MIL-SPEC ARMOR IS HARDENED?! HOLY MOTHER OF KANE! O___________O Yup, definitely know what I'm spending my Availability Favor (if I earn one) on if Suprathyroid Gland ends up not stacking with other bioware. That's 5 armor more than with FBA, and Hardened at that...
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Ryo on (18:58:29/02-21-14)
I think we can revisit your 'halving armor is too big a punch' argument now that Mil-Spec gives you freakin' Hardened Armor. They better not have nerfed the gauss rifles after that massive buff.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (19:00:22/02-21-14)
Given how Mil-Spec is still something we call a reason to pull out the Vehicle Weapons, I still disagree. See that picture? That's LIGHT Mil-Spec. Heavy will cause the cops to call in tanks.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Ryo on (19:02:14/02-21-14)
Given how Mil-Spec is still something we call a reason to pull out the Vehicle Weapons, I still disagree. See that picture? That's LIGHT Mil-Spec. Heavy will cause the cops to call in tanks.

With 23 Hardened Armor, you may even be shrugging off Tank shells. That's 12 automatic hits before you even roll the damage soak. Stick a troll with 10 body in that and he's untouchable even against a rocket launcher.

Assuming an Anti-Vehicle rocket, that's 24P -4 AP against a metahuman target. Drops the hardened armor to 19, which gives 10 auto hits, and then the Troll with 10 body is rolling 29 dice to soak the other 14 +net hits. He could take a direct hit from a rocket to the face and come out of that with only 4 or 5 boxes of physical damage, and he'd have 13 total with Body 10. And he could easily roll well and take no damage at all, especially if he added edge. (and when you're getting shot by a rocket, why wouldn't you edge that?)

Compared to how the Thunderstruck worked in 4th edition, which would halve armor, then apply -4 AP. That'd drop his 23 armor to 7. He'd get 4 auto hits on his soak of 17, and he'd be facing an assault cannon, so probably 14-17P base damage when converted to 5th. Far more reasonable for getting shot by a massive cannon that requires two different types of ammo and will probably cost 100k+ nuyen.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (19:10:16/02-21-14)
True, it does make you a walking tank.

Let's see, I'd have 8+(4+23) soak dice, say I eat an AP of -8, that leaves me at 8+(4+15). That's 15 Armor vs DV to decide if it even hurts, 19 Armor to decide if it's Stun or Physical Damage, 27 soak + 8 auto-hits, giving me an average 17 damage soaked...

Or 8+(4+23) vs -half, that's 8+(2+12), so 12 for Hardened, 14 for Stun vs Physical, 22 soak dice + 6 autohits = average 13 damage soaked.

Vs your Rocket: 10 auto-hits, 31 dice, so 20 damage average soaked without Edge, and it'd barely be Physical. Vs the Thunderstruck I'd have average 4+6=10 damage soaked.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (19:16:13/02-21-14)
And to be fair gents...I'm expecting the other shoe to drop once we see more details on the weapons...good times ;D
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Ryo on (19:21:05/02-21-14)
I'm definitely looking forward to this book. They mentioned Ruthenium polymer coatings on a few of the armors, but at different ratings, so I'm a little hopeful that it works different than the Chameleon suit, but still nervous that it got nerfed to a limit bonus. I so much preferred the optical camo of 4th edition that was a penalty to see you, rather than a bonus to your sneak rolls.

I'm also a little confused by the Wireless bonuses on the formal wear armors. Why does connecting my evening gown to the internet give me a +1 bonus to my social rolls? Even by the standard of some of the weird wireless bonuses in the core, that's a head scratcher for me.

I'm also curious how certain things stack. Would the -2 Concealability from the Berwick Dress stack with the -3 modifier from the Argentum Coat for a total of -5 Concealability while wearing both? If so, pretty sure I know what fancy duds my face will be buying for herself.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (19:24:56/02-21-14)
Observes the environment and looks up the proper dresscode for a few tweaks that make you look better?
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on (02:58:55/02-22-14)
K, posted this in issues topic.... Got excited an did not read the topic fully (my defense it is easy to do on smart phone).

So far this is a highly amusing read... Along with a great way of layering armor bonuses without it getting stupid.

Funniest thing so far is Kane taking about Slamm-O mom's boobies

Quick edit: wanted to add that the light intro fiction is brilliant, showcasing different armor mods and there tactical effects... Also funny as hell:)

One thought, maybe there will be more discriptive txt in final product but to get an idea for what sleeping tiger looked like in style I had to jump back to 3rd edition cannon companion... Not cool for those just picking up SR 5 and trying to get a mental picture of what style they are buying. Maybe it is just me though?????
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (08:35:06/02-22-14)
Well, having had a chance to read and digest this last night, must say that I'm really looking forward to the book. Aside from the content, I'm EXTREMELY pleased that the book will be released in full color...yay!! ;D
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: firebug on (10:57:02/02-22-14)
I'm liking the Argentum coat.  An alternative for those who want a trench coat but don't want to feel vulnerable if they get the Lined Coat in the core book as opposed to the Armor Jacket.  I'm thinking the Ork Shaman my friend plays will want one of them ASAP.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Namikaze on (11:08:40/02-22-14)
I like the Custom Fit (Stack) rules.  The only caveat is that I think it might be tricky to read if you're not paying close attention.  The tables should list armor by manufacturer (for the stack rules), rather than separating the table by armor type within the manufacturer.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: firebug on (12:28:21/02-22-14)
I like the Custom Fit (Stack) rules.  The only caveat is that I think it might be tricky to read if you're not paying close attention.  The tables should list armor by manufacturer (for the stack rules), rather than separating the table by armor type within the manufacturer.

I'm also hoping the full book gives a bit of information on whether or not they're limited by attributes at all, as in, do they work like other "armor accessories" like helmets and shields do.  Though I think by reading the "Armor and Encumbrance" section again, they'd have to, which means they won't increase threshold of making attacks do Stun instead of Physical.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (12:34:34/02-22-14)
I don't think they count as Armor Accessories. And I don't think Armor Accessories don't count for Physical vs Stun.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: RHat on (17:30:04/02-22-14)
Observes the environment and looks up the proper dresscode for a few tweaks that make you look better?

Perhaps 2075 high fashion involves electrochromic fibers, and what's "in" changes rapidly and perhaps even involves frequently seeded shifting patterns?
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: martinchaen on (19:39:55/02-22-14)
One thing that probably needs clarification just for the rules lawyers out there is the Social Limit hike. For Charisma-based magicians, this could impact their Astral limit, and I don't know about y'all but I think that is a little messed up.

Proposed errata/change to the document if the above is not the intent?

Change this line from the Social Limit section:
"Some pieces of armor raise the Social Limit of the wearer."
to
"Some pieces of armor raise the Social Limit of the wearer for the purpose of Social tests only."
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: firebug on (21:07:22/02-22-14)
I didn't think about that, but yeah that would be pretty silly. "Haha!  You think you have the upper hand in this astral combat, but my body is wearing some pretty swag clothes right now!"
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: DeathStrobe on (23:27:49/02-22-14)
I didn't think about that, but yeah that would be pretty silly. "Haha!  You think you have the upper hand in this astral combat, but my body is wearing some pretty swag clothes right now!"

To be fair, you only get that bonus if they can see your suit. So if you were maybe fighting a manifested spirit, who can see both planes at once, and he gets a glimpse of you in the snazzy suit, he'll be like, "Damn, look how good that guy looks. He'll definitely be able to hit me harder with the awesome force of his personality now."
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: JackVII on (23:36:09/02-22-14)
Fear the power of my bowtie focus!
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: All4BigGuns on (01:41:59/02-23-14)
One thing that probably needs clarification just for the rules lawyers out there is the Social Limit hike. For Charisma-based magicians, this could impact their Astral limit, and I don't know about y'all but I think that is a little messed up.

Proposed errata/change to the document if the above is not the intent?

Change this line from the Social Limit section:
"Some pieces of armor raise the Social Limit of the wearer."
to
"Some pieces of armor raise the Social Limit of the wearer for the purpose of Social tests only."

Not really because it does specify Social Limit. In order for it to affect Astral Limit as well, it would need to state that it increases Charisma by <blah> for the purposes of calculating limits.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (06:51:08/02-23-14)
I didn't think about that, but yeah that would be pretty silly. "Haha!  You think you have the upper hand in this astral combat, but my body is wearing some pretty swag clothes right now!"

To be fair, you only get that bonus if they can see your suit. So if you were maybe fighting a manifested spirit, who can see both planes at once, and he gets a glimpse of you in the snazzy suit, he'll be like, "Damn, look how good that guy looks. He'll definitely be able to hit me harder with the awesome force of his personality now."
Don't forget Tailored Pheromones: "Man, I smell GOOD! Let's rock this shizzle!"
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (21:15:23/02-23-14)
I'll admit I'm worried about Milspec armor being "Pretty much cannot be injured by any of the weapons in the core book."  Heavy milspec armor can take the heaviest rocket statted out in the game, right to the face, and will essentially shrug it off.  If the answer to that is to use even bigger and badder weapons in this book, then you've essentially made everything in the core book obsolete.

As for the wireless bonus, seems obvious enough: bragging rights  ;).  It's one thing to wear a suit, but you're broadcasting to the entire world: "Damn.  I.  Look.  GOOD."  When others see you normally, they see those nice clothes, and that lets you butter them up a bit better.  With wireless on, they see you aren't just wearing a classy Berwick suit, their AR tells them it's a custom made - not tailored after the fact - Berwick bought at the most expensive tailor in Seattle, made with non-synth materials, WITH Mortimer of London's official mark of approval on not just your clothing, but you, specifically.

The magic thing has always been sort of a weird cross thing between Charisma the Talky Stat and Charisma the Mental Power Stat.  If you want, view it this way: Magic is very literally bound to your belief, partially in yourself, and when you look good, you feel good, and when you feel good, you have that much more confidence  ;D
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Namikaze on (00:44:02/02-24-14)
I'll admit I'm worried about Milspec armor being "Pretty much cannot be injured by any of the weapons in the core book."  Heavy milspec armor can take the heaviest rocket statted out in the game, right to the face, and will essentially shrug it off.  If the answer to that is to use even bigger and badder weapons in this book, then you've essentially made everything in the core book obsolete.

Disagree.  Check the availability of these milspec armors.  If your runners are kitted out with this stuff, then they deserve to have a great dragon attack them.  Or two.

The magic thing has always been sort of a weird cross thing between Charisma the Talky Stat and Charisma the Mental Power Stat.  If you want, view it this way: Magic is very literally bound to your belief, partially in yourself, and when you look good, you feel good, and when you feel good, you have that much more confidence  ;D

I agree.  I've always seen Charisma as a combination of lots of little things.  It's not just about how you look, but how you sway people.  And nothing sways people quite so much as confidence.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (06:23:38/02-24-14)
MilSpec is heavily Forbidden and military equipment, so when a cop sees you with it, or a SINner for that matter, the first thing they do is run and while they're running they'll ask for the army to send in the big guns. And if a sniper sets up at half a mile distance and attacks with a Ranger Arms APDS with 4 net hits, even my heavily boosted Human Street Sam would take damage, nevermind that mage with 3 Body. And we haven't even brought in the vehicle guns, with helicopters spray-painting you with Vigilants or tougher stuff.

Short version: If you bring in military equipment and you aren't out in the middle of nowhere or the Barrens, expect for a military response. If you want to run anywhere else, you don't bring MilSpec and you don't face MilSpec.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Redwulfe on (09:36:48/02-24-14)
Corp security forces would wear mil spec wouldn't they? I think the description even mentions red samurai. So these really high numbers are going to be on the opposition. Now that I think about it I don't really have a problem with that. If the runners stick to the shadows like they are supposed too then it shouldn't be an issue.

Red
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (09:39:19/02-24-14)
In the city? I don't think so, FBA at best. The very elite and any personel in military zones, perhaps. And even then you got to think cheap, the soldiers in WAR! all were walking around with light MilSpec.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Mäx on (10:59:54/02-24-14)
In the city? I don't think so, FBA at best.

Red Samurais are specifically mentioned to wear mil spec and those are exactly the guys quarding the kind of places runners are payed to hit.

And yes that means in the down town of Seattle.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (11:20:41/02-24-14)
They're the Elite Security Forces, those wouldn't usually guard the places runners are paid to hit. When you start hitting places guarded by elite soldiers on a regular base, you're already quite more experienced than the general runner.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: JackVII on (11:27:00/02-24-14)
Quote
MilSpec Armor
Finally gives the direct combat spellcasters something to cheer about...
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (11:34:41/02-24-14)
Yeah, glad I got 5 Willpower and 4 Body myself, and even then I really want some Counterspellers on my side.

Just imagine, an entire squad of Red Samurai, taken out by a few manaballs.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Redwulfe on (15:25:48/02-24-14)
actually it would not be downtown but in the country of Renraku. Just teasing, back on topic.

I could see R and D facilities having a single small unit of red samurai to guard things that runner would be hired to take. I don't think there would be an entire building full of them but it would make since for them to be present in the archology like a swat team style backup for when the building is getting attacked or someone is trying to blitz the border crossing into the corps sovereign tiled floors. I don't think they would be decked out in heavy milspec but light I could easily see as do-able.

Red
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: RHat on (18:09:03/02-24-14)
In the city? I don't think so, FBA at best.

Red Samurais are specifically mentioned to wear mil spec and those are exactly the guys quarding the kind of places runners are payed to hit.

And yes that means in the down town of Seattle.

I really don't think Red Samurai would be a normal standing security force at a facility.  HTR, perhaps, but HTR teams are not supposed to be something you can generally handle.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Redwulfe on (23:34:46/02-24-14)
I never thought it was that uncommon, given that most corporate security that I faced was always in heavy armor. Which in earleir edition was what we had for milspec, and even the picture of corp security guards in first which is what I've been reading a lot of lately shows them in mil spec style armor. Also given quotes like this "The Renraku Arcology has a Red Samurai unit in at least company strength. They're not shy about leaving the arcology to cover other com-pany interests in the Seattle Sprawl, either." from many of the shadowrun books always gave me the impression that when you faced off against a corp you will run into some military grade gear.

just my impression, to each there own though,
Red
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Namikaze on (00:11:00/02-25-14)
Well, Renraku doesn't own the Arcology anymore.  Hasn't for some time now.  Times change.  Many companies have decided to switch to a HRT method of dealing with runners.  It's cheaper to man the buildings with rent-a-cops that call in the big boys when they see the runners arrive.  Not only does this make sense in the setting, it also rewards teams that favor stealth and manipulation tactics.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (02:10:51/02-25-14)
MilSpec is heavily Forbidden and military equipment, so when a cop sees you with it, or a SINner for that matter, the first thing they do is run and while they're running they'll ask for the army to send in the big guns. And if a sniper sets up at half a mile distance and attacks with a Ranger Arms APDS with 4 net hits, even my heavily boosted Human Street Sam would take damage, nevermind that mage with 3 Body. And we haven't even brought in the vehicle guns, with helicopters spray-painting you with Vigilants or tougher stuff.

The problem is, your heavily boosted human street sam actually wouldn't take that much damage.

Lets use your example.  Someone plugs you with four net hits with an APDS Ranger Arms.  18P, -9 AP.  You're a human Sam with 5 Body, let's say.  Now you're pretty cool to be wearing the armor, so you've got some 'ware; aluminium bones and Orthoskin.  That gives you 27 armor, 23 of which is hardened.  Now, that's reduced to 18 armor, 14 of which is hardened, so you're taking some physical damage.  You roll 25 to soak, and you get 7 automatic, for an average of 15 soaked.  That means, if you got plugged in the head by a sniper using the most powerful sniper rifle in the game, miles away, who scored 4 net hits on you, you are slightly injured.

The rank and file run up and their anti-armor specialist fires a literal anti-tank rocket at you.  24P, -4AP.  Your modified armor is 23, with 19 hardened, so hey, still physical damage.  Your average soak comes out to 10+10 automatic, for an average of 20.  Yeah, you're going to take that anti-tank rocket to the face and walk out limping.  Mind you, only you walk out limping, because everything else around you has been destroyed.

They bring out The Troll.  He's a big troll.  He's holding a big assault cannon.  It's the equivalent of a light tank.  17P, -6AP, and let's give them 2 hits.  Average soak of 9, with 9 automatic.  1 damage.  One.  That's what the light tank gun did.  And it's stun damage.  Hell, if it had gotten 1 hit, you wouldn't have even noticed it!

Finally the chopper swings around and unloads it's heavy machine gun.  12P, -8 AP, and after riddling you with bullets they score 5 hits.  Your armor is 18, so guess what, it's stun damage again.  That's right, you just took like 10 heavy machine gun armor piercing rounds to center mass, and rather then going Dancing Murphy, they're just falling flattened to the floor.  But hey, at least it still managed to do some damage!  Yep, 2 stun damage.  That's a lot, right?

Now hold up.

Back up.

You are proposing that, on the rumor that someone is wearing heavy military armor, the corporation will call in literally the army to invade the city and lock it down and put snipers on the roofs and choppers in the sky to try to kill one dude.

And this does not convince - this alone, that the presence of one runner in heavy armor means "call in the army," this doesn't convince you that maybe the armor is a bit much?

Because even if that doesn't, that pretty much average in every way street sam just took on the army.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Sipowitz on (03:16:54/02-25-14)
So the Ork Tank we gots in our game with armor 35 is going to be awesome when he upgrades from an armored jacket to milspec?  Nifty for him.

I am assuming the bonuses for Social limit is for the more combatty type faces?

I'm looking at my Face and not seeing why I would need even more Social Limit.  Hitting it now means and exceptional roll.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (03:42:49/02-25-14)
Lets use your example.  Someone plugs you with four net hits with an APDS Ranger Arms.  18P, -9 AP.  You're a human Sam with 5 Body, let's say.  Now you're pretty cool to be wearing the armor, so you've got some 'ware; aluminium bones and Orthoskin.
My 'example' would be 4 Body, 4 Orthoskin, 4 Bone Density Augmentation, so 8+(4+23).

And you're talking a heavy machine gun. That's not a vehicle gun, however. Vehicle Guns aren't out yet, those would be in Run&Gun.

And this does not convince - this alone, that the presence of one runner in heavy armor means "call in the army," this doesn't convince you that maybe the armor is a bit much?

Because even if that doesn't, that pretty much average in every way street sam just took on the army.
Well frickin' duh. When you walk around with the heaviest military gear there IS, you are SUPPOSED to get the army tossed at you. This isn't stuff you can take with you around the 'plex. This is the equivalent of driving a frickin' tank into the city. And when the police finds out, not by rumor but by frickin' live-reports and confirmation by every GridGuide and news camera they got access to, that there's a military nutjob walking around town, they're going to call in the army. And have their mages manabolt you from a laaaaarge distance.

And if they don't, if someone walking around in bloody military gear in the middle of a city does NOT get the guy gunned down by the army, then THAT picture is the one that is wrong.

By the way, that Vehicle Gun will do far more damage than a mere machine gun. We're talking probably ~17P/-12 when loaded with APDS. If we throw that at 8+4+23, we got 8+4+11 left, physical damage and 6 autohits. 14 damage reduced, easy 5 hits due to the minigun burst, 8P taken. Even with Edge we're talking an average 3P.



If Runners bring Military Hardware into the city, then they should expect Military Hardware in return. It's an Arms Race.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Csjarrat on (05:36:35/02-25-14)
to be honest guys, heavy milspec means game over, write new chars please.
if you get to the point where the army is called in, no johnson is gonna touch you with a barge pole if IF you manage to somehow survive.
Leave the milpec stuff for merc campaigns i think. best for everyone that way! :-)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (06:14:30/02-25-14)
Or Barrens war against Bug Spirits and worse. There is a time and a place for it, but it's definitely not something your average runner is dumb enough for.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (09:37:24/02-25-14)
If the armor was more then just slightly above assault cannons in availability and significantly cheaper then it, I'd agree.  But as it stands, it's neither of those.  It's about as available as a cyber-arm grenade launcher.  Or rating 4 muscle 'ware.  It's MORE available then a banshee.

The actual mechanics just don't add up to what you're saying.  And frankly neither does the fluff.  Nothing in that section talks about countries devoting their army to hunting you down.  Nothing in the fluff even mentions you becoming any sort of high profile target just by wearing one.  It's overpowered, and you're making stuff up to try to justify how overpowered it is, when the logical response is to simply cut down on how grossly strong it is.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Csjarrat on (09:57:47/02-25-14)
no, maybe it doesn't state it in the fluff, but if you think about the logical response of the police when they see you carrying a restricted weapon (can i see your ID please?), then their reaction when you're carrying a forbidden weapon (put the gun down and put your hands above your head!!!), what is the next escalation in response to you running around in forbidden military gear? it's the SWAT team at a bare minimum.
I'd highly suspect that someone in the military would want to ask you polite questions about which friend sold you your high-tec military-only contracted suit while you're sat leaking bodily fluids in the police station's medbay  too.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Redwulfe on (11:18:54/02-25-14)
Currently today many police forces have specially trained individuals with military gear to use against threats that are beyond the scope of your run of the mill beat cop. They are called SWAT teams and are used. This is why I believe that in the 2070's when corporations are governments unto themselves, random thrill gangs shoot people on the streets for fun, and there are section of towns that the cops will refuse to go, that it makes perfect since to me that the escalation of threat will get a military grade response. In modern times we see SWAT being used in response to such escalation, we would that change in a more violent future. It doesn't mean the actual army will respond to you but HTR should and would have milspec gear, to use the shadowrun terms, this would include elite security used in corporate facilities. There are many presidents in the books showing the grade and level of response we are talking about, as well as there presence in many locations a runner will go. My suggestion is to not try and solve every run with your guns and stick to the shadows, so I don't really have a problem with seeing milspec armor on corp security in games I play in, I've been seeing it since first edition and we tend to deal with it just fine.

Red
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (12:16:03/02-25-14)
you're making stuff up
I'm not, and there is no excuse to claim I am.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (12:22:15/02-25-14)
you're making stuff up
I'm not, and there is no excuse to claim I am.

Could you show me where you got all that from, then?

no, maybe it doesn't state it in the fluff, but if you think about the logical response of the police when they see you carrying a restricted weapon (can i see your ID please?), then their reaction when you're carrying a forbidden weapon (put the gun down and put your hands above your head!!!), what is the next escalation in response to you running around in forbidden military gear?

Probably the same thing as their response to any Forbidden gear.

I'm not suggesting you just wear F armor all the time and run around with no worries.  I'm saying this claim that simply having it leads to the literal army invading the town and putting snipers on the roofs and sending tanks thundering in to kill specifically and only you is a rather gross exaggeration.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Sipowitz on (12:34:05/02-25-14)
If the armor was more then just slightly above assault cannons in availability and significantly cheaper then it, I'd agree.  But as it stands, it's neither of those.  It's about as available as a cyber-arm grenade launcher.  Or rating 4 muscle 'ware.  It's MORE available then a banshee.

The actual mechanics just don't add up to what you're saying.  And frankly neither does the fluff.  Nothing in that section talks about countries devoting their army to hunting you down.  Nothing in the fluff even mentions you becoming any sort of high profile target just by wearing one.  It's overpowered, and you're making stuff up to try to justify how overpowered it is, when the logical response is to simply cut down on how grossly strong it is.
Yes the availability of MilSpec armor is WTF are they thinking low.

 We are 7 sessions into our campaign and getting the group kitted out in MilSpec armor wouldn't be very hard to do. 
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: jim1701 on (13:09:25/02-25-14)
However easy it is to get it a player should be circumspect about where they use it assuming they want to avoid run ins with HRT's IMO.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Sipowitz on (13:18:48/02-25-14)
Of course, but that applies to pretty much everything in SR.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: jim1701 on (14:20:34/02-25-14)
Well, restricted gear may draw some causal interest but as long as your paperwork isn't glaringly bad and you aren't causing any overt trouble you aren't going to have a problem even in the higher security zones.  After all private security is everywhere of some type or another.  BUT, anything with an F rating is going to set off immediate alarms if it gets noticed and if you are somewhere anyone cares about.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: orcmeat on (14:28:06/02-25-14)
I know this will probably be looked at unfavorably but just because there are rules to get something doesn't mean you should be able to get it in game. The last game I ran was using 4e rules and the milspec armor was still pretty nuts, I had a player say he was looking for some and i just said no. I am not comfortable with players owning that sort of gear, just like how i dont want them to have a cruise missile or to be able to hack a thor shot. Gear choices just like everything else should pass through the GM IMO.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: All4BigGuns on (14:33:28/02-25-14)
If they can afford it, then they should be able to acquire it. Period. If you "can't handle it" or "aren't comfortable with it" then, IMO, you are not ready to sit behind the GM screen.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: jim1701 on (14:37:35/02-25-14)
That is an issue between a GM and his players. 
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: orcmeat on (14:46:12/02-25-14)
If they can afford it, then they should be able to acquire it. Period. If you "can't handle it" or "aren't comfortable with it" then, IMO, you are not ready to sit behind the GM screen.

I can handle it just fine. Assassins, HTRs, experimental weapons, or in the case of thor satellites maybe visits from great dragons. These items i dont want them to have are escalations, ones they will not win and will get murdered for. I dont want to have to do that. So I tell them no...which is also another way to handle it.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Namikaze on (14:49:13/02-25-14)
We are 7 sessions into our campaign and getting the group kitted out in MilSpec armor wouldn't be very hard to do. 

After 7 sessions, your guys have:
- Contacts that have access to Milspec equipment
- Contacts with enough Connection rating to get 18+ hits
- Characters with enough money to charge whatever the contact wants

Your rewards may be a little off-balance then.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: All4BigGuns on (15:00:06/02-25-14)
I can handle it just fine. Assassins, HTRs, experimental weapons, or in the case of thor satellites maybe visits from great dragons. These items i dont want them to have are escalations, ones they will not win and will get murdered for. I dont want to have to do that. So I tell them no...which is also another way to handle it.

Apparently you can't by that because escalation is not an immediate thing like people on these boards seem to think. They're not going to bring out those elite units until multiple incidents on their territory (probably about five or six) for things like assault cannons and military armor. They aren't going to give a rat's ass about their competitors' territories.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: orcmeat on (15:08:34/02-25-14)
I can handle it just fine. Assassins, HTRs, experimental weapons, or in the case of thor satellites maybe visits from great dragons. These items i dont want them to have are escalations, ones they will not win and will get murdered for. I dont want to have to do that. So I tell them no...which is also another way to handle it.

Apparently you can't by that because escalation is not an immediate thing like people on these boards seem to think. They're not going to bring out those elite units until multiple incidents on their territory (probably about five or six) for things like assault cannons and military armor. They aren't going to give a rat's ass about their competitors' territories.

It absolutely can be though. When footage is recovered showing a group of runners in milispec armor, the company is going to notice who makes that armor, probably a big 10 like ares or S&K. Injunctions are going to be filled. To cover their tracks the company who manufactured the armor  would send out hits using shadowrunners. these runners may take them alive to find out who they know that can get their hands on milispec armor  at which point they (the players) are going to be burned meaning new characters. Why cant I nip that in the bud before hand?
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (15:37:42/02-25-14)
"If you ever use this equipment then you will be hunted down and murdered and you can never avoid it" is just a very passive aggressive way of banning something.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Sipowitz on (15:42:57/02-25-14)
We are 7 sessions into our campaign and getting the group kitted out in MilSpec armor wouldn't be very hard to do. 

After 7 sessions, your guys have:
- Contacts that have access to Milspec equipment
- Contacts with enough Connection rating to get 18+ hits
- Characters with enough money to charge whatever the contact wants

Your rewards may be a little off-balance then.
Um..

- Don't need Contacts to gain access, the Face is better at it.
- Looks like you are making a mistake,  Book says: To purchase an item off the books, make an Availability Test. This is an Opposed Test of your Negotiation + Charisma [Social] versus the item’s Availability Rating. If you win the Opposed Test, you find the gear at the listed price,.... 
- Nuyen is super easy to come by in 5e.  a Bog Standard mission (for us at least)is  3k plus net hits(typically 4-5)[3500] plus the multiplier (ours is minimum 4{3 from largest DP of 12, 1 from speed/subtlety})   That is 14k per 'runner  times that by the 5 missions we've been on = 70k

Perhaps we are dong something wrong?
Face has Cha 9,  Negotiation 6[8] spec Black Market, TP 3, + Edge  gives him 23 DP vs. 16/18/22 DP?  Sure we'll take that.
Nuyen per mission is base 3000 + (net hits on negotiation) then multiplied by the highest DP/4 of the opposition, + other 1 point modifiers.

Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: orcmeat on (15:57:30/02-25-14)
"If you ever use this equipment then you will be hunted down and murdered and you can never avoid it" is just a very passive aggressive way of banning something.

I never said that. My for instance was taking that suit of armor into a a snatch a grab against another company. There are situations where it would be fine. hunt down bugs in the barrens, actually joining the military for a stint, or maybe cleaning out a barrens go gang. I say no because the missions I am going to run really aren't those. And yes people get murdered every day for less. I thought he had a gun so i shot him turns out it was a cell phone, I thought he had a grenade so i shot him, turns out its an apple.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Namikaze on (15:58:24/02-25-14)
Perhaps we are dong something wrong?
Face has Cha 9,  Negotiation 6[8] spec Black Market, TP 3, + Edge  gives him 23 DP vs. 16/18/22 DP?  Sure we'll take that.
Nuyen per mission is base 3000 + (net hits on negotiation) then multiplied by the highest DP/4 of the opposition, + other 1 point modifiers.

Where is the social limit being applied?
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Sendaz on (16:10:50/02-25-14)
I thought he had a gun so i shot him turns out it was a cell phone, I thought he had a grenade so i shot him, turns out its an apple.
On the plus side, you are ahead one cell phone and an apple. :D
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Sipowitz on (16:16:30/02-25-14)
Perhaps we are dong something wrong?
Face has Cha 9,  Negotiation 6[8] spec Black Market, TP 3, + Edge  gives him 23 DP vs. 16/18/22 DP?  Sure we'll take that.
Nuyen per mission is base 3000 + (net hits on negotiation) then multiplied by the highest DP/4 of the opposition, + other 1 point modifiers.

Where is the social limit being applied?
Well, the Face has a Social Limit of 12, but since he is using Edge....no need to worry about it?  However for you.  let's drop the dge, gives him 20 dice[12] vs a 16  if the Gm rolls more than 12 hits on 16 dice.......
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Namikaze on (16:26:47/02-25-14)
Wait - your face has a social limit of 12?  How did that happen?  Let's assume a Charisma of 9, an Essence of 5.4, and Willpower 7.  That would make him a dwarf AND an elf, with maxed out Charisma and Willpower.  Plus, his Essence is reduced by the Tailored Pheremones.  But whatever.  This gives him 10, with the Pheremones he'd have 13.  So I assume he has some other chrome in there too.

But how did he get those kinds of stats?  I'd rather not derail this thread any longer though: if you could just PM them to me, I'd appreciate it.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: RHat on (20:24:35/02-25-14)
I can handle it just fine. Assassins, HTRs, experimental weapons, or in the case of thor satellites maybe visits from great dragons. These items i dont want them to have are escalations, ones they will not win and will get murdered for. I dont want to have to do that. So I tell them no...which is also another way to handle it.

Apparently you can't by that because escalation is not an immediate thing like people on these boards seem to think. They're not going to bring out those elite units until multiple incidents on their territory (probably about five or six) for things like assault cannons and military armor. They aren't going to give a rat's ass about their competitors' territories.

You're confusing two different things.  There's immediate escalation in terms of the best available resources being leveled against you as soon as you're seen,  and long term escalation in terms of more and better resources being made available.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Namikaze on (00:28:29/02-26-14)
Further reading:
Power Creep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep)
Experience Curve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_point)

Basically, these are terms used to help quantify the overall power of your group.  It's possible for a group to get so powerful that the only recourse is to start over.  It's also possible for a game to develop so slowly that people get bored.  Telling your players that you're not ready to advance to the next plateau of the game is a perfectly legitimate method of controlling the power of the group from getting out of hand too fast.

And seriously, All4BigGuns?  You can't make an argument without resorting to taunting?

If they can afford it, then they should be able to acquire it. Period. If you "can't handle it" or "aren't comfortable with it" then, IMO, you are not ready to sit behind the GM screen.

Let's not lose sight of the big picture here.  Run and Gun has released one preview of the content.  We don't know what other rules are going to be implemented.  All of this arguing is based on speculation derived from one preview PDF.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (07:43:17/02-26-14)
When the group starts paying me to GM, I'll let them get whatever toys they want without throwing things in the way. Until then, game balance guarantees I can give them a nicer adventure and that I can have fun as well. If players don't like that the GM doesn't just blindly give them everything they want, then it's time they GM instead.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: biotech66 on (23:05:21/02-26-14)
When the group starts paying me to GM, I'll let them get whatever toys they want without throwing things in the way. Until then, game balance guarantees I can give them a nicer adventure and that I can have fun as well. If players don't like that the GM doesn't just blindly give them everything they want, then it's time they GM instead.

This is the philosophy I live by!  Don't like what I'm doing?  Either do it yourself, or don't bitch!
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Namikaze on (00:28:07/02-27-14)
I try to make everyone happy.  But that's an unrealistic goal.  For example, in my games I like to encourage the players to come up with characters first and then put the numbers to paper.  It helps to prevent people trying to min/max, and makes them focus on the character itself and how he/she interacts with the world (and vice versa).  But I had a guy that simply refused to even try things my way.  After multiple conversations with him, it became apparent he wasn't going to try my method, and we had to part ways with him.  It's a shame, because he's a great player.  Unfortunately, not everyone's table is to everyone's liking.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: tasti man LH on (02:33:14/02-27-14)
I see it as a cooperative effort by all sides of the table. Both the players and the GM should be having fun.

If the GM is getting sadisitic all the time and dropping Force 30 spirits with all the great dragons and 20 different battalions of Red Samurai on the players every single session, players aren't going to have fun.

At the same time, if the players ae running around with mil spec gear, have full acces to Thor shots, and whose solution to every mission is to use those Thor shots, or decide that they want to kill all the great dragons in the Sixth World, and are able to one-shot kill every single enemy and it's impossible to hit them because they min maxed everything about their character...chances are it's not going to be fun.

For me, no going nuts with super extreme Dark Souls-esque campaigns, and not letting your players pull off batshit insane Saint's Row IV campaigns either.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Sipowitz on (03:09:36/02-27-14)
Hmmm.  Not liking the social limit and skill buffs from armor.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Horsemen on (06:52:39/02-27-14)
When the group starts paying me to GM, I'll let them get whatever toys they want without throwing things in the way. Until then, game balance guarantees I can give them a nicer adventure and that I can have fun as well. If players don't like that the GM doesn't just blindly give them everything they want, then it's time they GM instead.

Absolutely!!!   8)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (12:41:29/02-27-14)
Preview #2 (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/126824/Shadowrun-Run--Gun-Preview-2) on DTRPG  ;D
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (13:54:18/02-27-14)
Only read the part on armor but already spotted a your instead of you're. ^_^
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: martinchaen on (14:09:34/02-27-14)
Sweet, downloaded and reading during lunch break!
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Sipowitz on (14:34:31/02-27-14)
Always amuses me when they write into the book.  "yeah you should be minmaxing"  ::)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: jim1701 on (15:41:06/02-27-14)
Hope to see a preview of some of the weapon accessories and customizations that will be available. 
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (16:37:30/02-27-14)
I'd actually rather just see them release the book... 8)

However, in lieu of this happening in the near future, a snap of the weapon accessories would be pretty cool.

An aside, more art released on Tumblr (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/78035166467/shadowrun-run-gun-more-art-preview-2), though the image can also be found in the second preview.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (16:13:21/03-03-14)
Preview #3 (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/126988/Shadowrun-Run--Gun-Preview-3) is now up. This one is all about combat options (called shots, in particular)...kinda liking where they're trying to go. ;D
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Namikaze on (16:43:29/03-03-14)
Me too.  I like the fact that the optional rules are labeled clearly (RG1, RG2, etc.) - it'll make things a little easier for bookkeeping.  I did see an issue in one of the texty bits though.

Page 57:
Quote
Instead, many aspects of combat are abstracted, and some of the psychological aspects show up in how a player role players their character rather than in a series of dice rolls.

Hardly a breaking issue or anything, but it's just something I spotted.

Additionally, there's the bit on page 60 about Progressive Recoil, which seems to want to run counter to the Errata.

Page 60:
Quote
PROGRESSIVE RECOIL (P. 175, SR5)
Tracking recoil is important to balance the combat field, especially with some of the optional rules presented in this book. Every bullet fired inflicts a –1 recoil penalty that is compensated for by a weapon’s Recoil Compensation rating, whether from the natural Strength of the character or from accessories or the design of the gun.  The basic rules allow every character to fi re 2 bullets before taking recoil penalties (1 free + STR/2(rounded up)), but after that they really start to add up. The only way to stop this ever-escalating penalty is spend an action not firing that weapon.

This seems to go back to the original writing of Progressive Recoil, which was vague.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: firebug on (18:24:02/03-03-14)
RG2, RG3, and RG6 I all really like and will probably regularly implement.  RG1 and RG4 though seem pointless...  They just make certain characters better without any real reason.  Especially laughable that RG4 is followed by a number of points that, to me, just say "but using this rule will just screw everything up".

I understand a lot of people weren't a fan of the "called shot to ignore armor" rule in 4th, and RG5 is prettymuch the same...   Makes me wonder a bit.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: martinchaen on (19:07:59/03-03-14)
Namikaze
Doesn't that rule match the errata exactly? "An action", unfortunately, includes free actions; I'm presuming that little blurb should read "is spend a simple or complex action not firing that weapon" if they want it to match the errata rules.

RG2, RG3, and RG6 I all really like and will probably regularly implement.  RG1 and RG4 though seem pointless...  They just make certain characters better without any real reason.  Especially laughable that RG4 is followed by a number of points that, to me, just say "but using this rule will just screw everything up".

I understand a lot of people weren't a fan of the "called shot to ignore armor" rule in 4th, and RG5 is prettymuch the same...   Makes me wonder a bit.
People were loath to use called shots to ignore armor? Against an AV10 opponent, you're taking a negative 10 modifier to your dice pool; this was pretty much the only way sniper weapons were viable as one shot one kill weapons, by targeting unaware opponents with a called shot. I only ever used it once or twice in surprise attacks, but when they worked they worked flawlessly, much as I would expect a bullet to the brain or a sharp metal spike through the throat or heart would affect someone in real life.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Namikaze on (19:49:48/03-03-14)
Namikaze
Doesn't that rule match the errata exactly? "An action", unfortunately, includes free actions; I'm presuming that little blurb should read "is spend a simple or complex action not firing that weapon" if they want it to match the errata rules.

Unfortunately, the text for the blurb in Run & Gun is not clear about whether it is summing up the Core book's wording or the Errata's wording.  And they do have vastly different results.

SR5 Core Book:
Quote
Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action other than shooting for an entire Action Phase.

SR5 Errata:
Quote
Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, a Simple or Complex Action other than shooting.

Run & Gun:
Quote
The only way to stop this ever-escalating penalty is spend an action not firing that weapon.

Also, there are a few locations in the preview that reference Initiative Passes.  I assume these should be Action Phases, and it would be incredibly confusing to new players who never touched 4th edition to not know the difference.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: martinchaen on (23:19:09/03-03-14)
The rule "RG4" should be what was used for Initiative in the core book with what is in the core book at present being relegated down to the Optional Rule.

RG1, RG2 and RG6 are also great, 3 and 5 not so much though. One caveat to RG1 though, recoil needs to shift back to how SR4A dealt with it.
Respectfully, you need to stop telling people and the developers how the game they made and the rest of us play needs to be...

I believe that stating your opinion is clearly your prerogative. Claiming your opinion is the "one twue way", however, is not cool as I see it.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: RHat on (23:40:07/03-03-14)
I expect a high Initiative to actually be WORTH what you have to put into it, and unless you use something like that RG4, it is nowhere near worth what it costs.

Under the normal rule, there's no real point in enhancing Initiative at all. At least under the other you're actually getting something worthwhile out of the ludicrously high Essence and nuyen cost.

Quite frankly, I think you're completely wrong.  Initiative boosters are very valuable - they're not the kings of the system like they were in SR4, but they're massively important; this is especially true given the ways in which you can "spend" initiative.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Namikaze on (23:49:19/03-03-14)
FYI, life becomes a lot better when you start ignoring All4BigGuns.  As martin pointed out, you're not stating your opinion.  You're telling people right off the bat that they're wrong if they disagree.  That kind of combative stance makes you into a bit of a bully, and it's part and parcel of why I choose when I read your posts or not.

For those that want to ignore someone, like this asshat Namikaze  :), just go up to Profile and look at your buddy/ignore lists.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: RHat on (23:50:29/03-03-14)
Completely untrue. With a mere 5 Reaction and 4 Intuition, you can have all the Initiative you could ever really need under the base rule.

Not at all - for example, what happens when you want to have 2 actions and still use full defense (or simply if you want 3 actions)?  That remains very, very valuable (especially with the errata that basically killed progressive recoil as a meaningful mechanic).
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: CanRay on (00:55:14/03-04-14)
Children, please play nice.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: tasti man LH on (02:45:54/03-04-14)
Actually RG4 I'm more confused at because it seems to be EXACTLY the same as the regular Initiative rules but just reworded.

Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: RHat on (03:16:35/03-04-14)
Actually RG4 I'm more confused at because it seems to be EXACTLY the same as the regular Initiative rules but just reworded.

Am I missing something?

Normal Initiative:  You run through Initiative until everyone acts once, subtract 10 from everyone, repeat for everyone north of 0.

RG4: If you have 31 and the next guy has 9, you get to act 3 times before he gets to act once.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: tasti man LH on (03:34:08/03-04-14)
...ugh. If that's the case, it would certainly help to have worded it a bit better, or have one of those shiny example boxes that the core book was so proud of.

The other thing that I feel needs clarifying is the Movement Penalties table, specifically "Ranged Attack Penalty". I'm not sure if they mean if the penalty is for someone firing on a character that is moving the listed distance, or if the character is shooting while moving that distance.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: firebug on (03:37:30/03-04-14)
Actually RG4 I'm more confused at because it seems to be EXACTLY the same as the regular Initiative rules but just reworded.

Am I missing something?

Normal Initiative:  You run through Initiative until everyone acts once, subtract 10 from everyone, repeat for everyone north of 0.

RG4: If you have 31 and the next guy has 9, you get to act 3 times before he gets to act once.

Which gives high initiative characters a complete dominance in combat, where having an extra turn over someone was already a big deal.  I personally can't see it being balanced...  But it's there if a GM wants to establish a serious dividing line between "combatants" and "noncombatants" and make it so everyone but the street samurai is very unwilling to enter combat.  I could see it lending to a grittier game, because Phys. Adepts and wired combat monsters would be absolutely brutal while the face and hacker would be at a major disadvantage, even if they knew how to shoot a gun real well.  I myself wouldn't use it though, because I like making combat "accessible" to multiple archetypes.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Ryo on (03:56:46/03-04-14)
...ugh. If that's the case, it would certainly help to have worded it a bit better, or have one of those shiny example boxes that the core book was so proud of.

The other thing that I feel needs clarifying is the Movement Penalties table, specifically "Ranged Attack Penalty". I'm not sure if they mean if the penalty is for someone firing on a character that is moving the listed distance, or if the character is shooting while moving that distance.

I'm more confused by the Defense penalty, considering running and sprinting normally give you a defense bonus.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: All4BigGuns on (04:14:44/03-04-14)
All considered to have Reaction 4 and Intuition 4 (values used due to being higher than Human average, but not vastly so).
Average is the only thing accounted for, lower number is assuming 3 average and higher is assuming 4 average (different people in my experience count it differently).

Non-Wired: 11 or 12 average Initiative
Non-Wired with Blitz: 23 to 28 Initiative

Wired 1: 15 to 17 Initiative
Wired 2: 19 to 22 Initiative
Wired 3: 23 to 27 Initiative

Wired 1 + Reaction Enhancer 1: 17 to 18
Wired 1 + Reaction Enhancer 2: 18 to 19
Wired 1 + Reaction Enhancer 3: 19 to 20

Wired 2 + Reaction Enhancer 1: 20 to 23
Wired 2 + Reaction Enhancer 2: 21 to 24

Wired 3 + Reaction Enhancer 1: 24 to 28

For Blitz with the Wired individuals:
Wired 1 – Add 9 to lower or 12 to higher
Wired 2 – Add 6 to lower or 8 to higher
Wired 3 – Add 3 to lower or 4 to higher

On the low-end average it takes Wired level 3 to, on average, go before the Non-Wired individual multiple times, and on high-end average it takes Wired level 2 + Reaction Enhancer level 1 to do so. With both, the Wired individual has paid so much in nuyen and Essence that he should be going before the Non-Wired.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Sendaz on (08:20:43/03-04-14)

I understand a lot of people weren't a fan of the "called shot to ignore armor" rule in 4th, and RG5 is prettymuch the same...   Makes me wonder a bit.
The big difference is RG5 is not for called shots, it is being applied to all shots/attacks with the idea that the chance for you attack of succeeding is now being reduced by the armor and your only really doing damage by getting around the armor/blowing through it. Sort of like the old AR system in palladium where you had to roll your attack higher than the AR to damage.  Anything else was treated as hitting the armor and not penetrating. 

Now this does not mean everytime you do succeed you hit a gap, you may also have blown through the armorey bits, but again the heavier/more covering the armor the less chance of succeeding.

Also remember, under GR5 armor does not convert P damage to S damage, so the shots are either being stopped by the armor or your bleeding from successful hits/penetration.  So passing out from a filled stun track is not much a concern now and a lot of possible damage is going to just flatten against the armor. 

And that is where there is still some questions on the math as an armor jacket is going to reduce that attack dice pool by 12 minus whatever AP you can muster.  So if you got 5 Agil and 5 Pistols with a weapon sporting a -2 AP, your initial attack DP of 10 gets zeroed out by the armor mod of -10 (12 armor reduced by the -2 AP to a penalty of 10), unless you toss in edge or use centering for adepts like Rhat suggested, or get a higher AP weapon or ammo. APDS is going to be popular... 

Still bouncing numbers, but it almost seems like they used old SR4 values for armor when the math was made , but again since damage is going to be P more you want less to get through so the higher armor values of 5th may make sense, but mooks are going to be flattening a lot of ammo against even moderate armor, so maybe that was the idea for more cinematic guns blazing style.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (12:01:47/03-04-14)
Another art preview on Tumblr (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/78555201653/shadowrun-run-gun-more-art-preview-3):

(https://31.media.tumblr.com/b1a40d6c433a8258e49da780a4ed89d9/tumblr_inline_n1x7m8jeJI1s9c9hj.jpg)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Csjarrat on (12:18:58/03-04-14)
that troll laughs in the face of correctly proportioned drawings! :-)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Namikaze on (12:35:28/03-04-14)
DAMN that dwarf chic is a PAWG!
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Medicineman on (12:40:13/03-04-14)
a Dwarf with round ears ?
Human looking pos qual ?

and what does PAWG! mean ? ?

HokaHey
Medicineman
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Namikaze on (12:51:25/03-04-14)
and what does PAWG! mean ? ?

Phat Ass White Girl
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on (13:16:31/03-04-14)
Maybe it is the upscale version of a clown car!!!
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Namikaze on (13:17:53/03-04-14)
I really like whoever they have doing the inking and shading, but that preview image seems almost like three unrelated images all Photoshopped into one picture.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Ryo on (13:51:58/03-04-14)
I really like whoever they have doing the inking and shading, but that preview image seems almost like three unrelated images all Photoshopped into one picture.

The cover feels the same way. If you actually look at the four people on that cover, none of them belong in the same picture together. It looks photoshopped together, and badly. Hell, the orc on the left is basically straddling the dwarf with the way he's positioned. I doubt whoever drew it intended to have him humping the guy's shoulder. And there's even obvious perspective errors that gives it away as a bad composite of multiple pictures, like the fact that the dwarf's sidearm is on top of the knee of the guy behind him, even though his leg is clearly in front of the dwarf by a good distance judging by the placement of their feet.

I'm not sure why Catalyst is doing it this way. They should have just had the picture drawn as a group shot to start with. Maybe it passes inspection for people who don't know how art and design works, but I'm surrounded by this stuff in my daily life and its blatant that corners were cut to make the cover of this book, and sloppily at that.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (14:13:56/03-04-14)
While this particular image doesn't do a whole for me, I have been liking most of what we've been seeing for Run & Gun. I guess that's one of the tough things about art...subject to the individual tastes.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Namikaze on (14:19:32/03-04-14)
True enough.  I guess for me it just breaks the realism completely when the car is the same size as the troll, but also the same size as the (I assume) dwarf.  Scale is important to me, even though I will say that I LOVE the individual elements.  The faces, the details, all awesome.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Angelone on (16:15:59/03-11-14)
I like RG4, it brings back 2nd Ed.'s speed Samurai and I was a huge fan of those. I'm with A4BG that a dedicated combat character who has dedicated a large chunk of their resources to initiative boosters should be rewarded for it in combat by being faster and being able to do more than those who didn't make that investment. Riggers, Hackers, and Mages all have their places where they shine and imo with RG4 the combat monsters do too. Somebody with no IP boosters should get ventilated by someone with them. The whole everyone shoots then the people with extra IPs go again left a really bad taste in my mouth especially if someone with no IP boosters somehow got to go before someone with them.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: firebug on (16:55:25/03-11-14)
Somebody with no IP boosters should get ventilated by someone with them. The whole everyone shoots then the people with extra IPs go again left a really bad taste in my mouth especially if someone with no IP boosters somehow got to go before someone with them.

That's already how it is.  Having high initiative is still a massive boost because it still gives you extra actions on top of going first; people with no initiative boosters still get destroyed by people without them...  And I don't know what you're doing wrong if the unaugmented, non-magic-boosted characters are somehow going before the ones with them--  Which, by the way, won't change with RG4.  Someone who rolled a 27 is going before someone who rolled 12, and they'll get an extra turn as well.  If the non-boosted character rolls a 14 and the boosted one has crap REA and rolls a 1 on all his dice and ends up with, say, 9, RG4 isn't going to have any impact at all on that situation.

Characters are already rewarded for those things...  And they're already able to do more than those who didn't make those investments.  It's already there.

Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: RHat on (19:02:20/03-11-14)
I like RG4, it brings back 2nd Ed.'s speed Samurai and I was a huge fan of those. I'm with A4BG that a dedicated combat character who has dedicated a large chunk of their resources to initiative boosters should be rewarded for it in combat by being faster and being able to do more than those who didn't make that investment. Riggers, Hackers, and Mages all have their places where they shine and imo with RG4 the combat monsters do too. Somebody with no IP boosters should get ventilated by someone with them. The whole everyone shoots then the people with extra IPs go again left a really bad taste in my mouth especially if someone with no IP boosters somehow got to go before someone with them.

Being rewarded and being able to do more doesn't require punishing everyone else.  They're already rewarded, they already do more.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Kincaid on (20:29:00/03-11-14)
Having played a *lot* of 2nd edition, I am thrilled that they changed initiative.  It's awesome for the Sam player (obviously), but as a GM watching all the bored faces at the table while the Sam went over and over, I never felt like it was a good dynamic.  Chromed players dominate the table and chromed opponents become overwhelming for non-chromed characters really easily.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: tasti man LH on (21:50:07/03-11-14)
Right. Basically, it's another version of the Pizza problem with deckers.

Hence why I prefer the default version for 5th.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: RHat on (22:23:45/03-11-14)
If you think about it, under those rules, it's basically a Dick Move to load out on initiative boosters, because you've pretty much set the course of the fight before everyone else gets a chance to act.  For example, the Street Sam with Reaction 6 (12) [WR3, RE 3, wireless active] and Intuition 6 has a minimum initiative of 22, maximum of 42, and an average of 32.  Compare to a Reaction 3, Intuition 3 character, and that street sam could be acting up to 4 times before that character acts once.  That's not a good scenario.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: firebug on (22:30:52/03-11-14)
I feel like it also need to be spelled out that in that scenario, even with the basic rules, the street sam will still go first, and then after the other character has gone, go again, and then after the other character has gone once more, go again two more times.  That is still a big benefit that is without a doubt worth the investment.  RG4 doesn't even make the street sam stronger--  It just nerfs all the other characters and bores all the other players.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Angelone on (23:44:31/03-11-14)
The Combat character, Rigger, Face, and Hacker are bored while the Mage is going around in the astral. The Combat character, Rigger, Face, and Mage are bored when the Hacker is hacking. The Combat character, Mage, Face, and Hacker are bored when the Rigger is using drones for recon. The Combat character, Rigger, Hacker, and Mage are bored when the Face is facing.

Everyone has their own roles, yet they feel they should be able to keep up with a dedicated combat character... for reasons. The Sam/Adept who is built for it should go multiple times before Joe Average who isn't.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: tasti man LH on (23:56:54/03-11-14)
Because combat is far more common then astral recons, big hacking jobs, or drone scouting?
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: RHat on (23:59:47/03-11-14)
The Combat character, Rigger, Face, and Hacker are bored while the Mage is going around in the astral.

Not if you do it right - they can be doing something else while the scouting is going on, and you can intercut.  When the group is in combat, however, this is not the case.

And people aren't talking about "keeping up" with the combat character - under the base rules, the combat character is still way ahead.  Just not horribly so.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Angelone on (08:27:23/03-12-14)
Because combat is far more common then astral recons, big hacking jobs, or drone scouting?

Not necessarily, it really depends on play style. In the majority of my experience combat  takes the back seat and is the only one of the those activities that is avoided if possible.

The person without IP boosters is going to sit there not doing anything just as long regardless if the boosted character uses their actions before them or after them. If the boosted player has 4 IPs they are going to get those IPs either way. Unless there aren't enough enemies and they all get wiped out in the first or second pass which seems unfair to the boosted person. To me it's the same as using background count to take away all the mage's magic.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: firebug on (10:13:22/03-12-14)
They also clearly worked in this edition to remove the so called "decker pizza" problem.  That's why they established the strategy of having the decker with the team, moving in and direct-connecting to everything in AR.  It is established that causing that kind of situation where one player does everything while everyone else waits around is a bad thing.  They are clearly trying to avoid those kind of schisms.  Again I agree with Rhat though; when a decker ends up still away from the team in a host or the mage is astral projecting, the players are not forced to wait.  Often it is the best idea (such as if you're having the mage check it there's guards around a site before approaching) but if they have other things they can do, there's nothing stopping them.  Usually astral scouting is done without rolling initiative in my experience, since it doesn't need to be so precise.    With a decker in a host, however, with IC rolling to spot them every chance, you do need to roll initiative.  At this point though, everyone should still be doing something.  Every time the decker loops a camera feed, the team is moving past it and keeping a look out for physical obstacles in their plan.  Again, no one is prevented from doing anything because of the nature of a decker.

In combat though, unless your player is an ass, you can't just keep moving on.  Everyone rolls initiative and you've got to deal with the threats right then.  Combat sort of "overrides" all other objectives, since that's kind of the idea--  The security or whomever is shooting at you with the intention of forcing you to stop what you're doing and either shoot back or retreat.  Everyone isn't able to keep doing whatever, it involves everyone in the group all at once (who's physically present), and so it's reasonable for everyone to get a chance to contribute...  Meanwhile, that combat monster with 30+ initiative is still going to make everyone shit out their teeth by the end of it.  That player is getting to shine, still dominating, and the other players are also able to contribute.  No where near the level of the street sam or phys. adept, of course, but enough to help and enough to feel like they have a reason to be there.

Combat is seriously a lot different from hacking and astral projecting; and I'm certainly not defending those two when they do end up separating play too much.  It's a bad thing to do, no one wants it to happen, and the game's rules have been trying to fix the most common version of it for 5th edition.  It just really, really seems unreasonable to just institute another rule to bring that factor back in another section of the game.

Ugh, I'm getting too worked up about what is, at base, an optional rule.  Sorry.  Use it if you want, I just want to warn people that it could really take the fun out of the game for other players in your average campaign style.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Angelone on (11:28:45/03-12-14)
You make good points I don't agree though. I think it's a problem when everyone has to stop what they are doing to participate in combat. My belief is that combat should be handled by dedicated characters which includes drone riggers while the rest of the team continues on with their jobs. I feel RG4 empowers combat characters to do so.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: RHat on (15:29:31/03-12-14)
Because combat is far more common then astral recons, big hacking jobs, or drone scouting?

Not necessarily, it really depends on play style. In the majority of my experience combat  takes the back seat and is the only one of the those activities that is avoided if possible.

The person without IP boosters is going to sit there not doing anything just as long regardless if the boosted character uses their actions before them or after them. If the boosted player has 4 IPs they are going to get those IPs either way. Unless there aren't enough enemies and they all get wiped out in the first or second pass which seems unfair to the boosted person. To me it's the same as using background count to take away all the mage's magic.

Actually, no - the Speed Sam acts, 1 pass guy acts, Speed Sam takes his other actions, everyone rolls initiative.  There's a bit more engagement with the game that way, and it's a HUGE difference if the 1 pass guy uses his action to pop an initiative booster, like popping Cram or Jazz.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Redwulfe on (16:59:04/03-12-14)
I also like RG4. In my games my combat characters are board most of the time as the rest of the group avoids combat like the plague. and when combat does hit many of the non-combat characters spend there first pass with little effect as they scramble for cover and such. When the combat character goes he has a great impact on the combat as he should. allowing him to go first several times in our games means that the combat will be over quicker and the rest of the group can go back to doing what they want to and if the other characters wish to go as fast they can blitz, that's the cost for not having the tech but doesn't deny you the option. To me that's what makes a great optional rule it will fit some play styles but not all of them and that is great in an optional rule. use it if you want but its not the base rules.

Red
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: RHat on (18:48:05/03-12-14)
I also like RG4. In my games my combat characters are board most of the time as the rest of the group avoids combat like the plague. and when combat does hit many of the non-combat characters spend there first pass with little effect as they scramble for cover and such. When the combat character goes he has a great impact on the combat as he should. allowing him to go first several times in our games means that the combat will be over quicker and the rest of the group can go back to doing what they want to and if the other characters wish to go as fast they can blitz, that's the cost for not having the tech but doesn't deny you the option. To me that's what makes a great optional rule it will fit some play styles but not all of them and that is great in an optional rule. use it if you want but its not the base rules.

Red

So...  What happens in your game when the enemy has initiative boosters, and can thus waste every character without initiative boosters, or every character who doesn't have their boosters active yet before they can so much as grab cover?

I tend to think people figuring this would be a good rule are missing a lot of the consequences.  The way this nerfs Increase Reflexes in both Spell and Preparation form (the latter being a great way to get boosts to people who don't have them) along with the combat drugs is a huge issue.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: tasti man LH on (19:35:29/03-12-14)
Considering that RG4 states the drawbacks, I think it's less people ignoring the consequences and more people think that the risks are worth it, or that the drawbacks aren't that big of a deal.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (07:05:08/03-13-14)
The answer to the Decker Minigame problem is not to silo everyone else.

At that point, are you even playing a game together?  Have Jack come by Monday to do all the decking sections, have Yuna come by Tuesday to do all the combat rolls, Cris come by Wednesday for all the sneaking rolls...

God, how miserable.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Redwulfe on (09:43:31/03-13-14)
So...  What happens in your game when the enemy has initiative boosters, and can thus waste every character without initiative boosters, or every character who doesn't have their boosters active yet before they can so much as grab cover?

Then they get wasted. Like I said this rule isn't for every game that's what makes it a good optional rule. In my game we play realistic black trenchcoat. The opposition is not balanced to the party, you make too many mistakes and the party is wasted or has to retire due to too much unwanted public attention. It's the way me and my group likes to play. We enjoy the challenge of portraying criminals in a dystopian world. They tend to avoid combat and we see one every four or more game sessions. Typically it's a random thrill gang who are no match for a seasoned shadowrun team and even those fights they avoid due to the possibility of public awareness, someone somewhere has a camera and being caught on tape doesn't fly to well with my group. We like our game deadly and less pink Mohawk. You don't stick out, you avoid getting into a gun fight if possible, you are a criminal, you stick to the shadows. It's the way we play and this rule doesn't really change that, it just make combat more deadly. And if you don't have your boosters on that's what edge is for, you blitz for 5d6.

Red
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Parker on (10:23:45/03-15-14)
So...  What happens in your game when the enemy has initiative boosters, and can thus waste every character without initiative boosters, or every character who doesn't have their boosters active yet before they can so much as grab cover?

Then they get wasted. Like I said this rule isn't for every game that's what makes it a good optional rule. In my game we play realistic black trenchcoat. The opposition is not balanced to the party, you make too many mistakes and the party is wasted or has to retire due to too much unwanted public attention. It's the way me and my group likes to play. We enjoy the challenge of portraying criminals in a dystopian world. They tend to avoid combat and we see one every four or more game sessions. Typically it's a random thrill gang who are no match for a seasoned shadowrun team and even those fights they avoid due to the possibility of public awareness, someone somewhere has a camera and being caught on tape doesn't fly to well with my group. We like our game deadly and less pink Mohawk. You don't stick out, you avoid getting into a gun fight if possible, you are a criminal, you stick to the shadows. It's the way we play and this rule doesn't really change that, it just make combat more deadly. And if you don't have your boosters on that's what edge is for, you blitz for 5d6.

Red

Gotta agree.  It was made perfectly clear since 1st Ed. that the best shadowruns are pulled off without firing a shot or even the enemy knowing that your team pulled it off!  Ya wanna pull an action movie boom-boom?  Go down to the Barrens and tangle with a local gang.  Highly doubt Mr. Johnson is going to pay if your team gets on the 6 o'clock news or even is recorded while breaking a dozen laws pulling off the 'run.  Heck, why did ya think they brought in the Reputation and Notoriety scores back in 4th?
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (16:55:16/03-21-14)
Preview #4 (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/127622/Shadowrun-Run--Gun-Preview-4) on DTRPG
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (07:13:36/03-22-14)
Nice fluff. :)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: firebug on (08:16:14/03-22-14)
Yeah, the talk about small unit tactics is really interesting.  I also liked that it did establish that military units do use wireless devices and why they're willing to take the risk.  Good info on how to make a character in regards to team composition...  And also makes me wonder if maybe they'll have the rules for TacNet in Run & Gun since they seem to be focusing on much more than just straight-up gear.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: PeterSmith on (09:01:48/03-22-14)
And also makes me wonder if maybe they'll have the rules for TacNet in Run & Gun since they seem to be focusing on much more than just straight-up gear.

The fiction at the start of the section seemed to imply there would be something akin to the TacNet.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: callmedinosaur on (12:41:11/03-22-14)
Yeah, the talk about small unit tactics is really interesting.  I also liked that it did establish that military units do use wireless devices and why they're willing to take the risk.  Good info on how to make a character in regards to team composition...  And also makes me wonder if maybe they'll have the rules for TacNet in Run & Gun since they seem to be focusing on much more than just straight-up gear.

Yeah, honestly the direction they're going with Run & Gun as specifically the "combat book", and splitting the rigger book off into it's own thing, is making me wonder if they're gonna split a bunch of the gear into a "b&e book" or a "gadget book" considering most of that stuff is not combat focused.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (17:25:51/03-22-14)
Per the latest blog (http://www.shadowruntabletop.com/2014/03/run-gun-preview-4-up-with-tactical-tips/), looks like this is the last preview...should be available for purchase pretty soon. :)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Sendaz on (17:28:08/03-22-14)
Just take my money already :P
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (19:18:16/03-22-14)
Oooh, can't wait. :) Now if only we had the FAQ so I can finally decide what to spend my Missions availability favour on. ^_^'
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Kincaid on (09:27:02/03-23-14)
Oooh, can't wait. :) Now if only we had the FAQ so I can finally decide what to spend my Missions availability favour on. ^_^'

Don't forget, it's +1 month from Catalyst's street date for the physical book before you get to do that.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (15:39:01/03-23-14)
I'm eternally stuck as GM, I already got over half a dozen missions in backlog in character advancement. ^_^'
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Nightmare on (11:16:07/03-26-14)
I'm eternally stuck as GM, I already got over half a dozen missions in backlog in character advancement. ^_^'

Same here...so stuck....
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Ursus Maior on (12:19:10/03-26-14)
Yeah, double stuck! One, the first GM quit the job out of time issues. Second, he likes to play a lot more than GM SR.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on (15:01:55/03-26-14)
If your in the Seattle area we have two GM's already running a campaign... The two of us are always looking for fresh meat....um new runners to introduce into game:) It would be a great way to introduce run and gun to have a larger okay group! (See what I did....thread tie in!)

We play roughly once a month, but some of us maybe able to stretch to twice if there is more players.

Cheers Frankie
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (01:15:07/04-09-14)
Randall just posted the following on FB:

Quote
A little Johnson just said Run & Gun might go on sale later this week...hope he's not just shining us.... rnb

 ;D
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: CanRay on (01:28:16/04-09-14)
Randall just posted the following on FB:

Quote
A little Johnson just said Run & Gun might go on sale later this week...hope he's not just shining us.... rnb

 ;D
The bigger question is:  Was the Johnson smiling?
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: firebug on (02:07:29/04-09-14)
Sigh.  "A little Johnson"?  "Someone's genitalia told me a book's gonna be out soon."

Seriously, I cannot be the only one who always thinks those kind of phrases sound bad.

Anyways, I am super excited...  Please let it have tacnet stuff in it.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (06:42:06/04-09-14)
*from below* What's your trouble with Dwarves, eh mate? So size does matter, eh?
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Sendaz on (08:32:30/04-09-14)
Would make a Short joke, but we know it would just go over his head. ;)

Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (08:57:20/04-09-14)
It's a shame that since this book will also have a printed version, it won't yet be missions-legal at my Missions run next month (the 10th). ;_; I'm kinda thinking of allowing an exception, since I'll be getting the PDF myself, so that in the last run where guns can shine the players have the new guns available.

(Doing Stormcrow Undone in june, and after that gonna see whether I do something non-Missions in july, and hope that when september hits there will be new Missions... After june I'll be out of FL+SW, and already did SRM 5A 1 to 3.)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: biotech66 on (09:43:32/04-09-14)
Michael, where you running games at?
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (11:16:48/04-09-14)
Europe. :) I live in the east of the Netherlands, only dutch agent there is. I think there's only half a dozen, or less, active demo team agents in Europe.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: grimjaws on (12:45:56/04-09-14)
It's a shame that since this book will also have a printed version, it won't yet be missions-legal at my Missions run next month (the 10th). ;_; I'm kinda thinking of allowing an exception, since I'll be getting the PDF myself, so that in the last run where guns can shine the players have the new guns available.

(Doing Stormcrow Undone in june, and after that gonna see whether I do something non-Missions in july, and hope that when september hits there will be new Missions... After june I'll be out of FL+SW, and already did SRM 5A 1 to 3.)
Refresh me please as to how this works with supplements being allowed into SRMs.

I'll be running Missions in June (to make up for my inability to get to GenCon this year, darn the new job and accumulated vacation time) and want to make sure I have a firm answer in case it comes up.

EDIT: Never mind, I just saw Kincade's post further up. +1 month from street date of print release.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Namikaze on (12:47:52/04-09-14)
Europe. :) I live in the east of the Netherlands, only dutch agent there is. I think there's only half a dozen, or less, active demo team agents in Europe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ882QYzr-M

Best Michael Caine line ever.  :)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Ursus Maior on (02:37:58/05-01-14)
Nothing new yet, hmmh?  :-\

Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: tasti man LH on (02:53:21/05-01-14)
Nothing new yet, hmmh?  :-\

...you've been away from the Internet for a long while, have you? (http://"http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=16007.0")
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Ursus Maior on (07:51:03/05-01-14)
In fact yes. ;D Been to Greece and had no time to look into SR. Also: Hardcover hasn't been made available yet where I looked.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (14:46:30/05-01-14)
Yeah, no street date for the hardcover yet.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Ursus Maior on (04:35:42/05-21-14)
What a pity... Just bought a German anthology of Assassin's Guide, GH3, Coyotes and Parazoology 2, also including an AGS update on cars. Sweet! Now, I need to get my hand on all the other hardcovers. Man, if Catalys keep up the quality of the corebook, I will buy every single book of this edition. Having so much fun with my group right now.

Enough fanboying...  :P
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (04:41:17/05-21-14)
Jealous! Was it a physical compilation? Now I want one. :<
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: TheDai on (03:29:32/05-22-14)
Jealous! Was it a physical compilation? Now I want one. :<

Yup. Pegasus loves us <3
look here: http://www.pegasus.de/detailansicht/45019g-shadowrun-5-schattenhandbuch-limitierte-ausgabe/ (http://www.pegasus.de/detailansicht/45019g-shadowrun-5-schattenhandbuch-limitierte-ausgabe/)
I don't have my copy yet, but i can't wait :)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (05:00:06/05-22-14)
Note to self, ask Bull if the german material is legal in Missions. :P If not, the additional stuff will still be useful for when my normal campaign switches.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Ursus Maior on (12:07:01/05-22-14)
Jealous! Was it a physical compilation? Now I want one. :<
Yes it is. Hardcover, crisp graphics and all...
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Ursus Maior on (12:07:50/05-22-14)
Note to self, ask Bull if the german material is legal in Missions. :P If not, the additional stuff will still be useful for when my normal campaign switches.

I love the cars in it. Especially the BMWs.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Ravennus on (17:31:43/06-25-14)
Any new update on when the Run & Gun physical books are being shipped?

I preordered one from your online store, Battlecorps, and it still shows as "backordered".
Has anyone got a physical copy yet? (not counting copies from Cons, in-house employees, etc)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (18:24:25/06-25-14)
As the official release date isn't until July 16, I'm not expecting to see any shipping notices before then. Of course, I'm quite open to being pleasantly surprised... ;)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: The Tekwych on (18:44:24/06-25-14)
My LGS was asked to finalize their preorder this week. Was given my last chance to upgrade to the Hardbound limited edition.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Dangersaurus on (18:58:05/06-25-14)
Yup. Pegasus loves us <3
look here: http://www.pegasus.de/detailansicht/45019g-shadowrun-5-schattenhandbuch-limitierte-ausgabe/ (http://www.pegasus.de/detailansicht/45019g-shadowrun-5-schattenhandbuch-limitierte-ausgabe/)
I don't have my copy yet, but i can't wait :)

Thanks for the link! Vereinigte Staaten here it comes!

I've already got POD copies of Coyotes & GH3, but the AGS/BMW stuff was too tempting. See if I can remember my lessons for 20+ years ago  ;D
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Bull on (01:00:12/06-26-14)
Note to self, ask Bull if the german material is legal in Missions. :P If not, the additional stuff will still be useful for when my normal campaign switches.

Nope, because that stuff isn't really vetted through CGL (pegasus has pretty free reign, I believe), and I never see any of it.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Bull on (01:02:14/06-26-14)
My LGS was asked to finalize their preorder this week. Was given my last chance to upgrade to the Hardbound limited edition.

Just to clarify, all copies of R&G are Hardback.  However, there is also a limited edition print run being done, similar to the LE version of the SR5 core book (Red leatherette embossed cover, and comes with a double sided poster with pics of all the gear).
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: The Tekwych on (11:17:06/06-26-14)
Yes, Thank you for that. They were asking about the red leather LE addition. I'll stick wit the standard as I have the pdf already.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Novocrane on (21:11:00/06-26-14)
I'd like a red leather pdf. 8)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Sendaz on (21:23:56/06-26-14)
I'd like a red leather pdf. 8)
Digital leather is still digital murder.  :P

Keep the killing where it belongs..... on the physical, because you know those cows have it coming (http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/254178/the-real-bombers)
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: Mirikon on (15:33:37/06-27-14)
Meat is murder. Sweet, juicy, flamebroiled murder.
Title: Re: Run and Gun release date?
Post by: AJCarrington on (09:53:07/07-08-14)
Received word that my LE edition had been received... ;D