Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: AJBuwalda on <11-13-10/2018:27>
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How does dodge work exactly? I can't seem to figuere it out. The rules are very fuzzy or I can't seem to find the right page. Either way, I'd like some help.
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I will kill you. Because you now have one of my players begging me to answer your question because she doesn't know how it works. She's silly like that. I'm going to be a little more detailed in the interest of a thorough answer.
When you are defending against a melee attack, it works as follows (SR4A, pg. 156 - 157):
You can block, dodge, or parry the attack.
If you block, you roll Unarmed Combat + Reaction opposing the attacker's roll.
If you dodge, you roll Dodge + Reaction opposing the attacker's roll.
If you parry, you roll the weapon skill for the weapon you're wielding (blades or clubs) + Reaction opposing the attacker's roll.
Obviously, you want to use the one you're most skilled in, and the one that you have an available option for (you can't parry without something to parry the blow).
When you are defending against a ranged attack, it works as follows (SR4A, pg. 153):
You roll Reaction opposing the attacker's roll.
On your action, or if you have not yet acted, in reaction to an attack (as an interrupt action, in lieu of your action that initiative pass), you may declare Full Defense (SR4A, pg. 160). This works as follows:
* You may declare Full Dodge, adding your dodge skill to ranged defense or melee dodge.
* You may declare Full Parry, rolling (melee combat skill x 2) + Reaction against melee attacks.
* You may declare Gymnastics Dodge, adding your gymnastics skill to ranged defense or melee dodge.
As always, there are a ton of modifiers that can apply, see Defending in Combat, SR4A, pg. 159.
Wait, that's right, you've got the straight SR4 book. . .
SR4A, pg. 156 - 157 == SR4, pg. 147
SR4A, pg. 153 == SR4, pg. 142
SR4A, pg. 160 == SR4, pg. 151
SR4A, pg. 159 == SR4, pg. 150
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I will kill you. Because you now have one of my players begging me to answer your question because she doesn't know how it works. She's silly like that. I'm going to be a little more detailed in the interest of a thorough answer.
But... wouldn't it make more sense to kill the aforementioned player, not this poor guy? She's within arm's reach no less, and frankly, I don't want to die horribly in-game tomorrow. It's going to happen sooner or later, and I know it's gonna be her fault.
Heh, my gaming group isn't dysfunctional, I swear. :D
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On your action, or if you have not yet acted, in reaction to an attack (as an interrupt action, in lieu of your action that initiative pass), you may declare Full Defense (SR4A, pg. 160). This works as follows:
* You may declare Full Dodge, adding your dodge skill to ranged defense or melee dodge.
* You may declare Full Parry, rolling (melee combat skill x 2) + Reaction against melee attacks.
* You may declare Gymnastics Dodge, adding your gymnastics skill to ranged defense or melee dodge.
Just to clarify these three a bit:
1) Full Dodge (Ranged) = Reaction + Dodge
Full Dodge (Melee) = Reaction + Dodge + Dodge
2) Full Parry (Blades) = Reaction + Blades + Blades
Full Parry (Unarmed) = Reaction + Unarmed + Unarmed
3) Gymnastics (Ranged) = Reaction + Gymnastics
Gymnastics (Melee) = Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics
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Thanks mates! I got the melee part right. Now I also get the ranged part!
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On your action, or if you have not yet acted, in reaction to an attack (as an interrupt action, in lieu of your action that initiative pass), you may declare Full Defense (SR4A, pg. 160). This works as follows:
* You may declare Full Dodge, adding your dodge skill to ranged defense or melee dodge.
* You may declare Full Parry, rolling (melee combat skill x 2) + Reaction against melee attacks.
* You may declare Gymnastics Dodge, adding your gymnastics skill to ranged defense or melee dodge.
Just to clarify these three a bit:
1) Full Dodge (Ranged) = Reaction + Dodge
Full Dodge (Melee) = Reaction + Dodge + Dodge
2) Full Parry (Blades) = Reaction + Blades + Blades
Full Parry (Unarmed Clubs) = Reaction + Unarmed Clubs + Unarmed Clubs
3) Gymnastics (Ranged) = Reaction + Gymnastics
Gymnastics (Melee) = Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics
Fixed it for ya. ;D
Note, it's full parry and using the Unarmed skill is specifically called block vice parry. I don't see why you shouldn't be allowed to use a Full Block action, same as Full Parry, but in terms of RAW, a parry uses a weapon. I'll grant, the very text of Full Parry tends to lump unarmed in:
Characters who go on full parry roll (melee combat skill x 2) + Reaction against any and all melee attacks made against them.
Sounds like it should include Unarmed, but a parry is defined as using a weapon to deflect an incoming blow, not blocking with your arms/wrists/legs/body. This holds true in the RAW (pages 156 & 157 of SR4A) and in RL. Maybe I'm being too much of a stickler, though. Heck, I'd house rule it to include unarmed, or house rule a "Full Block", to keep consistent with the language used on pages 156 and 157. But, I would consider it a house rule.
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I'd allow both. The case can be made and rule aren't meant to be ironclad. Its beyond me how some GMs or players can be so blacn and whit on the subject. You ought have thought that people who RP are especially flexible in that regard, seeing as that is what RPGs are about. Alas this is not the case and it is one of my pet-peeves.
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Yup, you'll only ever see me turn into a rules hard-ass when someone asks for a strick "by the RAW" interpretation (usually this forum and the Errata forum, but others as well).
The only problem with using our own interpretations is that we get so comfortable with them, we forget they aren't the RAW. Then, when you put two of us, with different house rules in the same room, we'll butt heads and not be able to explain why until we step back, and look at the RAW. RAW provides a framework within which you make a game fit your group like a glove and Shadowrun is better at admitting that than most games I've played. Look at how often the books say "GM discretion", what is that if not a way to say "house rule it"?
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Yup, you'll only ever see me turn into a rules hard-ass when someone asks for a strick "by the RAW" interpretation (usually this forum and the Errata forum, but others as well).
The only problem with using our own interpretations is that we get so comfortable with them, we forget they aren't the RAW. Then, when you put two of us, with different house rules in the same room, we'll butt heads and not be able to explain why until we step back, and look at the RAW. RAW provides a framework within which you make a game fit your group like a glove and Shadowrun is better at admitting that than most games I've played. Look at how often the books say "GM discretion", what is that if not a way to say "house rule it"?
If only we had more people like you here to game with... Rural country sucks for RPG playgroups :(
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Thanks Chaemera. Like you, I'd allow the Full Block which is basically the same as the Full Parry, so I didn't bring it up. But you're right, there's some hardcases out there that wouldn't allow it.
Also, per the maneuvers in Arsenal, I'd substitute the Block for Parry as well.
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A couple of notes:
@FastJack: When you use Full Dodge, you can add Dodge skill to any defense pool. For example, you can roll (Melee Weapon) + Dodge + Reaction instead of Dodge + Dodge + Reaction; see SR4A p. 60. Likewise, you can add Gymnastics to any normal defense pool, not just Gymnastics + Dodge + Reaction.
@Chaemera: In my game, you simply declare Full Defense as your action, and you choose the defense option separately for each attack. (In other words, you never specifically declare "Full Parry" except in response to a particular attack.) I do that partly because that's how regular defense works: You choose whether to dodge, block, or parry depending on whatever is best at the moment. I also do it because otherwise, Full Parry is almost always an inferior choice, since it leaves you vulnerable to ranged attacks (which are already bad enough at -3 defense in melee).
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@FastJack: When you use Full Dodge, you can add Dodge skill to any defense pool. For example, you can roll (Melee Weapon) + Dodge + Reaction instead of Dodge + Dodge + Reaction; see SR4A p. 60. Likewise, you can add Gymnastics to any normal defense pool, not just Gymnastics + Dodge + Reaction.
Yeah, I hadn't really paid attention to that myself, but it's right there:
So a character on full defense against a ranged attack rolls Dodge + Reaction, whereas a character on full defense against a melee attack could roll Dodge + Dodge + Reaction, or melee combat skill + Dodge + Reaction.
@Chaemera: In my game, you simply declare Full Defense as your action, and you choose the defense option separately for each attack. (In other words, you never specifically declare "Full Parry" except in response to a particular attack.) I do that partly because that's how regular defense works: You choose whether to dodge, block, or parry depending on whatever is best at the moment. I also do it because otherwise, Full Parry is almost always an inferior choice, since it leaves you vulnerable to ranged attacks (which are already bad enough at -3 defense in melee).
Yeah, the RAW implies you choose when you go on Full Defense, but I can definitely see the advantage to allowing the person to choose the most effective Full Defense for a given attack.
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Thanks guys! I skimmed that part before posting.
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In my game, you simply declare Full Defense as your action, and you choose the defense option separately for each attack. (In other words, you never specifically declare "Full Parry" except in response to a particular attack.) I do that partly because that's how regular defense works: You choose whether to dodge, block, or parry depending on whatever is best at the moment. I also do it because otherwise, Full Parry is almost always an inferior choice, since it leaves you vulnerable to ranged attacks (which are already bad enough at -3 defense in melee).
I do this as well. Seems to work rather well and have never had a complaint. Even when the bad guys dodge the PCs attacks more often.
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In my game, you simply declare Full Defense as your action, and you choose the defense option separately for each attack. (In other words, you never specifically declare "Full Parry" except in response to a particular attack.) I do that partly because that's how regular defense works: You choose whether to dodge, block, or parry depending on whatever is best at the moment. I also do it because otherwise, Full Parry is almost always an inferior choice, since it leaves you vulnerable to ranged attacks (which are already bad enough at -3 defense in melee).
I do this as well. Seems to work rather well and have never had a complaint. Even when the bad guys dodge the PCs attacks more often.
Complaint :P
Ultimately I went along with this house rule not because I like it but because it streamlines the game a bit. It does remove a tactical choice which is why I'm not the biggest fan, but it's mostly a "how do I not get screwed" tactical choice.
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Yea, I'm all about the steamlining of RAW via house rules. So long as it doesn't significantly change the rules, I tend t o favor less dice rolling and quicker resolutions.
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Streamlining is your friend. ;D
Sadly, SR4 is a game in need of a lot of streamlining, and everyone complains that the most streamlined systems feel like MMO's.
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Yea, I tried D&D4e. Couldn't hack it after about 2 hours, had to stop. Was way to WoW, except without all the conveniences like a computer to do all the work for you and make pretty pictures. Then again, I wouldn't call D&D4e streamlined in the least either. It's hideously un-streamlined, but w/e. I still love my SR, even with it's few flaws.
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Love SR4 to death. Has become my favorite system, though I wouldn't try to port it to a different universe, wouldn't work de-cyberpunked.
Streamlining in dnd4e comes from realizing that it's a keyword system. If you want to know how to things interact, look at the keywords, they tell you everything about that item and its interactions with anything else in the game. In this sense, it is very streamlined. Once you really get that concept, everything falls into place. Honestly didn't feel like WoW once we started playing (looked like it when we just read the rules, though).
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I think one of the best things about SR4 is "buying hits", that tends to streamline a LOT of stuff.
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I think one of the best things about SR4 is "buying hits", that tends to streamline a LOT of stuff.
Yes. Yes, and Yes again. Now, if only my players weren't so insistent on getting to roll their darned dice!
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I think one of the best things about SR4 is "buying hits", that tends to streamline a LOT of stuff.
Yes. Yes, and Yes again. Now, if only my players weren't so insistent on getting to roll their darned dice!
It's addictive. You tell a player s/he can roll 18 dice to succeed and s/he gets that "Wizard tossing a massive fireball at the goblin army" look in her/his eye.
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I think one of the best things about SR4 is "buying hits", that tends to streamline a LOT of stuff.
Yes. Yes, and Yes again. Now, if only my players weren't so insistent on getting to roll their darned dice!
It's addictive. You tell a player s/he can roll 18 dice to succeed and s/he gets that "Wizard tossing a massive fireball at the goblin army" look in her/his eye.
And there is no methadone for massive fireballs to goblin army face. Except making the wizard roll separate attack rolls for each goblin. ;) That's one nice thing about 4e, makes the players do the work so us GMs can go back to sleep.
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I think one of the best things about SR4 is "buying hits", that tends to streamline a LOT of stuff.
Yes. Yes, and Yes again. Now, if only my players weren't so insistent on getting to roll their darned dice!
It's addictive. You tell a player s/he can roll 18 dice to succeed and s/he gets that "Wizard tossing a massive fireball at the goblin army" look in her/his eye.
And there is no methadone for massive fireballs to goblin army face. Except making the wizard roll separate attack rolls for each goblin. ;) That's one nice thing about 4e, makes the players do the work so us GMs can go back to sleep.
There's also the gambler aspect. It's a 1 in 43,046,721 shot that you'll hit with all 16 dice, but as a wise man once said, "Don't tell me the odds!"
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I think one of the best things about SR4 is "buying hits", that tends to streamline a LOT of stuff.
Yes. Yes, and Yes again. Now, if only my players weren't so insistent on getting to roll their darned dice!
It's addictive. You tell a player s/he can roll 18 dice to succeed and s/he gets that "Wizard tossing a massive fireball at the goblin army" look in her/his eye.
And there is no methadone for massive fireballs to goblin army face. Except making the wizard roll separate attack rolls for each goblin. ;) That's one nice thing about 4e, makes the players do the work so us GMs can go back to sleep.
There's also the gambler aspect. It's a 1 in 43,046,721 shot that you'll hit with all 16 dice, but as a wise man once said, "Don't tell me the odds!"
Sadly, his odds of 16 1's are significantly lower. :(
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I think one of the best things about SR4 is "buying hits", that tends to streamline a LOT of stuff.
Yes. Yes, and Yes again. Now, if only my players weren't so insistent on getting to roll their darned dice!
It's addictive. You tell a player s/he can roll 18 dice to succeed and s/he gets that "Wizard tossing a massive fireball at the goblin army" look in her/his eye.
And there is no methadone for massive fireballs to goblin army face. Except making the wizard roll separate attack rolls for each goblin. ;) That's one nice thing about 4e, makes the players do the work so us GMs can go back to sleep.
There's also the gambler aspect. It's a 1 in 43,046,721 shot that you'll hit with all 16 dice, but as a wise man once said, "Don't tell me the odds!"
Sadly, his odds of 16 1's are significantly lower. :(
1 in 2,821,109,907,456
To put this all in perspective, the odds to win the Powerball Jackpot are 1 in 195,249,054.
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Yes, but then again, to glitch, he really only needs half (8) 1's. Which'd be 1 in 1,679,616. So we're back in the realm of not winning the lottery.
It'd just be funny to watch the goblin-eating grin turn upside down when all the 1's pop.
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There's also the gambler aspect. It's a 1 in 43,046,721 shot that you'll hit with all 16 dice, but as a wise man once said, "Don't evertell me the odds!"
Fixed it; assuming you were talking about Han Solo to Threepio. But I'm certain that others have said this line too...this is just the one that sticks out in my mind.
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There's also the gambler aspect. It's a 1 in 43,046,721 shot that you'll hit with all 16 dice, but as a wise man once said, "Don't evertell me the odds!"
Fixed it; assuming you were talking about Han Solo to Threepio. But I'm certain that others have said this line too...this is just the one that sticks out in my mind.
Nerd Cred all 'round 8)
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On the topic of using Dodge, how does a Melee Combat specialization for the Dodge skill affect the use of Full Dodge (Dodge + Dodge+ Reaction) in melee combat? Does it benefit a +2 or +4 modifier from the specialization?
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On the topic of using Dodge, how does a Melee Combat specialization for the Dodge skill affect the use of Full Dodge (Dodge + Dodge+ Reaction) in melee combat? Does it benefit a +2 or +4 modifier from the specialization?
Since specializations are dice pool modifiers:
A specialization grants the character a dice pool modifier of +2 dice on tests using that skill when the particular specialty applies
You would get +2 per test, not per time the skill is added to the pool.
EDIT
Before this fight starts up again, if you wish to debate whether or not it's a dice pool modifier, go here (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=1229.0).
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Since specializations are dice pool modifiers:
A specialization grants the character a dice pool modifier of +2 dice on tests using that skill when the particular specialty applies
You would get +2 per test, not per time the skill is added to the pool.
EDIT
Before this fight starts up again, if you wish to debate whether or not it's a dice pool modifier, go here (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=1229.0).
Thanks, I figured this, but I have a fellow player in a group I play with, argue that since Dodge is used twice in a Full Dodge during melee combat, he can apply a +4.
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My group was wondering something similar about Full Parry. I suppose then that you'd get Reaction + weapon + weapon + 2.
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My group was wondering something similar about Full Parry. I suppose then that you'd get Reaction + weapon + weapon + 2.
If you're weapon specialization is in defense/parrying, then that would be my ruling - yup.
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On the topic of using Dodge, how does a Melee Combat specialization for the Dodge skill affect the use of Full Dodge (Dodge + Dodge+ Reaction) in melee combat? Does it benefit a +2 or +4 modifier from the specialization?
Since specializations are dice pool modifiers:
A specialization grants the character a dice pool modifier of +2 dice on tests using that skill when the particular specialty applies
You would get +2 per test, not per time the skill is added to the pool.
EDIT
Before this fight starts up again, if you wish to debate whether or not it's a dice pool modifier, go here (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=1229.0).
+1 :)
Hough!
Medicineman
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Sorry guys, I've got a follow on from this.
Pretty sure I've got the dice pools figured out, but do successes from defence stack with the resistance test at all?
Meaning, if I try and defend against the attack either by trying to dodge it entirely, block the attack or parry it, does this in any way reduce the damage value of the attack before attemption the attempt to resist said damage.
In some ways it makes sense to, but on the other hand it might make it impossible to get hurt.
I didn't note anything in the rules.
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Dodge/block/parry reduce your attackers successes when it comes to hitting you. If their successes are reduced to zero, you don't get hit. If you don't reduce their successes to zero, only the remaining successes are factored in the damage you have to soak.