Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Jeeves on <11-11-10/1249:48>

Title: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: Jeeves on <11-11-10/1249:48>

does the adept power Power Throw add its dice to the unarmed combat + strength test to determine weather a martial artist throws another character?

I was reading through the arsenal menuvers and had that idea. Now I wanna make a man-thrower character.

My justifications for it would be that metahuman bodies are listed as an improvised throwing weapon.

however my argument against it would be that the power throw increases the damage done to torgets HIT by the metahuman, but says nothing on how much damage the metahuman takes.

well? any clues?

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: FastJack on <11-11-10/1330:20>

First you would need to make the Full Defense action when you're attacked in Melee. If successful, then you would roll the Strength + Unarmed Combat Opposed Test to see if you succeed in actually throwing your opponent. If successful, then you would need to make an Agility + Throwing Weapons Test to throw the opponent at a target. You'd probably have the -3 modifier to that roll for it being a heavy/clumsy object to throw, but the Power Throw adept power would balance that out since you get a + (2×Level) dice modifier.

If you hit, the opponent that you threw takes damage as if they fell (SR4A, p. 164) the meters thrown (net hits on the Opposed Test). The target that you threw at would take (BOD)S damage (Arsenal, p. 20) where BOD is of the opponent thrown.

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: Jeeves on <11-11-10/1358:32>

what if you were to do the same thing but direct it at a wall that isn't the full distance away? for example, say i get 4 hits, so i could throw him four meters, but i instead throw him at a wall only 2 meters away? would this affect anything?

so, let me get this straight:

first, block (unarmed x 2) + agility


then, strength+unarmed to determine throw success. Would Power Throw add any dice here? why or why not?


then agility + throwing weapons to determine accuracy and stuff. Cool.

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: FastJack on <11-11-10/1438:09>

Quote from: Jeeves on <11-11-10/1358:32>

what if you were to do the same thing but direct it at a wall that isn't the full distance away? for example, say i get 4 hits, so i could throw him four meters, but i instead throw him at a wall only 2 meters away? would this affect anything?

There's nothing on intervening barriers. I'd house-rule it that he'd take the same damage when he hit the wall, he'd just be prone at the wall or go through it, depending on the damage done to the wall (see Destroying Barriers, SR4A, p. 166 - Damage done by the body would be 1 DV to the wall).

Quote from: Jeeves

so, let me get this straight:

first, block (unarmed x 2) + agility

Yes

Quote from: Jeeves

then, strength+unarmed to determine throw success. Would Power Throw add any dice here? why or why not?

Power Throw would not add to this, because it's the action of pulling him off balance for the throw. Power Throw gives you a bonus to your Thrown Weapons Test (the next roll) to determine accuracy.

Quote from: Jeeves

then agility + throwing weapons to determine accuracy and stuff. Cool.

This roll get the Power Throw dice.

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: Mäx on <11-11-10/1504:43>

HUH, where are you getting this bonus dice think?
Power throw adds 2*its rating to characters effective strength for determining range and damage of throw weapons/objects, thats it.

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: FastJack on <11-11-10/1521:09>

Oops... you're right. Got caught up in jumping back and forth between SR4A and Arsenal. The Power Throw bonus is only to Range and Damage equations. So, it WOULD be part of the Strength + Unarmed test and not the second Agility + Throwing Weapons test.

Also, it wouldn't affect the damage at all since that's determined by the BOD of the target being thrown...

Thanks, Mäx!

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: voydangel on <11-11-10/1603:14>

Quote from: FastJack on <11-11-10/1521:09>

Oops... you're right. Got caught up in jumping back and forth between SR4A and Arsenal. The Power Throw bonus is only to Range and Damage equations. So, it WOULD be part of the Strength + Unarmed test and not the second Agility + Throwing Weapons test.

Also, it wouldn't affect the damage at all since that's determined by the BOD of the target being thrown...

Thanks, Mäx!

Emphasis Mine.

This (in bold) makes me think that you're last statement is erroneous. The base damage would be based on the throwee's BOD, but I think it would then be modified by the Power Throw power.

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: FastJack on <11-11-10/1608:52>

Quote from: voydangel on <11-11-10/1603:14>

Quote from: FastJack on <11-11-10/1521:09>

Oops... you're right. Got caught up in jumping back and forth between SR4A and Arsenal. The Power Throw bonus is only to Range and Damage equations. So, it WOULD be part of the Strength + Unarmed test and not the second Agility + Throwing Weapons test.

Also, it wouldn't affect the damage at all since that's determined by the BOD of the target being thrown...

Thanks, Mäx!

Emphasis Mine.

This (in bold) makes me think that you're last statement is erroneous. The base damage would be based on the throwee's BOD, but I think it would then be modified by the Power Throw power.

I don't think so:

Quote from: Street Magic, p. 179

Power Throw
Cost: .25 per level (maximum 3)
Each level of this power adds 2 to the character’s effective Strength solely for the purpose of determining range and damage of thrown weapons and objects.

Since it only adds to Strength, it shouldn't effect the damage rating of (BOD)S - which I'm assuming is not the adept's BOD, but his target's BOD.

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: Jeeves on <11-12-10/1147:44>

right, but since you're throwing the body harder, wouldn't each rank in power throw just add 1 to the damage code of the thrown body? if the body is being thrown that much harder, the damage should be increaced. A troll flying at a higher speed will do more damage, is what i'm saying.

also, what if you didn't throw the body the full distance? For example,. if you aim the throw almost stright down, but got four hits on the throw (menuver) check, would that mean they have to resist the fall damage as if falling from four meters?

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: FastJack on <11-12-10/1211:06>

I don't know about adding to the damage. Since it's specifically says it adds to the Strength, I have to fault on the side that it won't. Especially since every other thrown weapon's damage is based off the strength of the thrower.

As with being thrown against the wall, I'd give you the hits to figure the falling damage, not the actual distance traveled.

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: Mäx on <11-12-10/1228:06>

Quote from: FastJack on <11-12-10/1211:06>

I don't know about adding to the damage. Since it's specifically says it adds to the Strength, I have to fault on the side that it won't. Especially since every other thrown weapon's damage is based off the strength of the thrower.

Becouse of that last part i think it would be totally valid to add +1 to damage per level of the power, as thats basically what it does for all other thrown weapons(as those have strenght/2 in the damage code).

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: FastJack on <11-12-10/1241:15>

Right, they all have STR in the Damage code, but a Metahuman Body has BOD as the damage code. So if strength is not taken into account on the damage at all, how would an ability that increases your Strength increase the damage? If STR was at all a factor in the Damage, then they could have written (STR+BOD)S damage.

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: Chaemera on <11-12-10/1305:32>

I think it might help to go back to the source:

Quote from:  Arsenal, pg. 160, Throw

    A character using Full Defense who successfully blocks or parries a melee combat attack may choose to throw her opponent as part of the defense. The character using the Throw maneuver must beat her attacker in a Strength + Unarmed Combat Opposed Test. If successful, the attacker is thrown a number of meters equal to the net hits scored on the test. The attacker suffers damage as if he had fallen an equal distance (see Falling Damage, p. 152, SR4), and is considered prone. This maneuver may also cause secondary damage if the opponent is thrown into something dangerous (such as a dumpster full of broken glass, the edge of a cliff); this additional damage is assigned at the gamemaster's discretion. The Throw maneuver is considered an interrupt action and uses up the character's next available action.

SR4 p. 152 == SR4A p. 164.

So the RAW actually breaks down the Throw maneuver into the following steps:

1: A is attacked by B in melee.

2: A, using Full Defense, blocks B's attack.

3: A and B make Opposed Strength + Unarmed checks

4: For the sake of example, A gets 5 hits, B gets 1 (net 4 hits for A)

5: B flies 4 meters in a direction left interestingly undetermined by the RAW *shrug*. Guess the player gets to choose, though a picky GM might say that B must travel past A (A can't throw B back, since A is using B's momentum against him).

6: B takes damage as though he fell 4 meters (4?, table on SR4A doesn't specify Stun or Physical. I'd figure Stun, unless you fall on concrete or other hard surfaces, but that's not really RAW), resisted by Body + half Impact.

7: Done.

There is no Agility + Thrown check in the RAW, the way Throw is written.

Effect on B if he hits anything during the Throw, per the RAW, completely GM's discretion. Effect on C if B hits him during the Throw? Outside the RAW/not addressed. As written, it's GM's discretion if A even has the accuracy to hit C with B (look at the discussion in step 5).

Add in Power Throw:

Quote from:  Street Magic, pg. 179, Power Throw

    Each level of this power adds 2 to the character's effective Strength solely for the purpose od determining range and damage of thrown weapons and objects.

Okay, we can see on the Weapon Range Table (SR4A, pg. 151) that most thrown weapons have ranges based on STR (0 - STR short, STR + 1 - StR x 2 medium, etc). It's pretty clear their intent for Power Throw was to increase those ranges.

And in the case of Throw, it's got a pretty clear application in the Strength + Unarmed Opposed Test, though some GM's might be uncomfortable  granting dice to something where the bonus as written is usually static (damage of most thrown objects is STR/2 +/- Something, ranges are discussed above).

Since the RAW of Power Throw and Throw don't explicitly reference each other to explain their unique interactions, I'd say it's GM's discretion and up to interpretation.

A lot of Throw is left to GM discretion in the RAW above.

At my table, I'd probably either call for an Agility + Thrown (at some kind of penalty) vs C's Reaction if A specifically wants to chuck B at C, or give B a Reaction test using the net hits A had on the opposed check in step 4 (perhaps minus the distance already travelled?, it's easy to get out of a landing man's way, hard if he just started flying). I like the second one b/c it reflects the ease of dodging something at the end of its flight path and reduces die rolling slightly.

I think that provides all of the RAW for each of the questions we've seen on Throw and Power Throw, and now I'm not so sure it helped, except to clarify how little is clear in the rules.

EDIT: To correct sloppy formatting on my part.

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: FastJack on <11-12-10/1334:08>

You're forgetting Arsenal

Quote from: Arsenal, p. 19-20

IMPROVISED THROWING WEAPONS
     As in the case of improvised melee weapons (see p. 17), a metahuman can grab nearly any item within reach and throw it at his opponents. Depending upon the nature of the item thrown, the effects can vary from distracting at best to quite deadly (meatballs might be fun to throw, but a nightstand hurled by a strong ork is much more effective).
     The Improvised Throwing Weapons table offers a sampling of possible throwing weapons and their potential effects. Gamemasters can adjust these effects as appropriate and apply negative dice pool modifiers of up to –3 to the Throwing Weapons Test for clumsy or exceptionally heavy items.

Improvised Throwing Weapons	Short Range	Med. Range	Long Range	Ext. Range	Damage	AP
Baseball/Billiard Ball	0–STR x 2	To STR x 4	To STR x 6	To STR x 10	(STR/2)P	—
Bowling Ball	0–STR/2	To STR	To STR x 1.5	To STR x 2	(STR/2 + 2)P	—
Brick/Paving Stone	0–STR x 2	To STR x 3	To STR x 4	To STR x 6	(STR/2 + 1)P	—
Chair	0–STR	To STR x 1.5	To STR x 2	To STR x 2.5	(STR/2)S	—
Combat Axe	0–STR	To STR x 2	To STR x 3	To STR x 4	(STR/2 + 3)P	—
Knife (any)	0–STR	To STR x 2	To STR x 3	To STR x 4	(STR/2)P	—
Metahuman Body	(STR – BOD)/2	—	—	—	(BOD)S	—
Molotov Cocktail	0–STR x 2	To STR x 3	To STR x 4	To STR x 5	5P*	–half
Pistol	0–STR x 2	To STR x 3	To STR x 4	To STR x 6	(STR/2 + 1)S	—
Potted Plant	0–STR/2	To STR	To STR x 1.5	To STR x 2	(STR/2 + 1)P	—
Sword	0–STR	To STR x 2	To STR x 3	To STR x 5	(STR/2 + 2)P	—

(emphasis mine)

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: Angelone on <11-12-10/1354:42>

This topic reminds me of a picture I saw linked to Dumpshock a while back, it was a troll throwing a baby through a police car. There was also math involved iirc and it worked... I'll try to find it.

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: Chaemera on <11-12-10/1357:03>

Okay, that gives you damage (BOD)S resisted by C if hit by B, but the consider that the Throw maneuver doesn't actually grant you an attack, by the RAW, distance thrown is specifically independant of the table (result of the Opposed Strength + Unarmed checks, if you somehow get 10 net hits, you throw him 10 meters, even if your (STR-BOD)/2 (whose strength, whose body?) limit is 3.

That general rule, in a table, at the GM's discretion (see the 1st line, second paragraph of your quote) is directly contradicted by the specific rules for the Throw maneuver. As a GM, the only interpretation that results in consistent rules is specific trumps general.

In general, the table on p. 19-20 provides ranges and damage for a creature thrown as an improvised weapon using the Throwing Weapons skill. Nothing, on pg. 19-20 references you to the Throw maneuver, any more than anything in the Throw maneuver references you to pg. 19 - 20.

Yeah, it makes good sense to use this table, but, as we've all seen, good sense /= RAW and the Throw power doesn't use a Thrown Weapons test.

These two bits are in the same book, if they don't reference each other, there's a reason.

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: Jeeves on <11-15-10/1045:23>

"5: B flies 4 meters in a direction left interestingly undetermined by the RAW *shrug*. Guess the player gets to choose, though a picky GM might say that B must travel past A (A can't throw B back, since A is using B's momentum against him)."

I would disagree in the case of a practitioner using Aikido. Aikido is about circular momentum. you can deffinitely throw someone back the way they came.

I don't know how to do the fancy qupte-from-the-book thing, but this is from page 156 of Arsenal

"Aikido (Judo, Jujutsu)
A “soft form” martial art designed for defense, Aikido
emphasizes circular movements that turn an attacker’s strength
against him."

I am by no means an expert in Aikido, but i bractised it for a bit, and yes, with the right throw, you can thro someone right back the way they came.

also, i kinda dissagree with the word "soft" in the description, because there is nothing soft about being thrown to the ground.


I talked to my GM, and he said that he'd allow the man-thrower. he also said that since i have to successfully parry or block the attack he'd allow counterstrike to be added to the throw roll.

This is gonna be great.

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <11-15-10/1326:17>

I think "soft" in this case means that it isn't specifically meant for direct strikes, more turning the opponents momentum against him.

Of course, hitting a stone floor/wall/statue at a speed greater than you walked up to the guy with would definately dissuade one from thinking the martial art was "soft."

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: FastJack on <11-15-10/1346:30>

Quote from: The_Gun_Nut on <11-15-10/1326:17>

I think "soft" in this case means that it isn't specifically meant for direct strikes, more turning the opponents momentum against him.

+1

Wikipedia's got a good discussion on the difference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_and_soft_(martial_arts)).

It's not about what you're doing to your opponent, but rather how you're meeting his attacks. A "hard" technique pits your strength against his--hammer to anvil. A "soft" technique is focused on using his energy against him--sword through water.

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <11-15-10/1352:51>

Also, I would think that a full size body would do more damage to a barrier than 1 DV.  Given the strength of some barriers, even hucking a troll into them isn't going to budge them, but a plate glass window or a standard door is probably going to fail catastrophicly.

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: FastJack on <11-15-10/1358:21>

Well, you do add the net hits to the DV as well. Of course, have you ever been slammed against a door? Trust me a standard door is still pretty strong. You only need 6 hits to go through a door made of cheap material. Not too shabby...

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <11-15-10/1359:39>

I have, in fact, been slammed up against a door.  I have even hurled someone through a door, accidently.  It doesn't require a lot of effort, which makes me think the 1 DV is kind of low.

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: FastJack on <11-15-10/1423:01>

Okay, but did you break through the door or did the lock break allowing the door to swing open? Or it came off the hinges?

Remember, the barrier rules are there for creating a hole within the barrier.

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <11-15-10/1509:59>

Through the door, making a hole.  The door opened the other way (toward us).  It only took a small shift of my 6' 4" frame to do it.

That's what you get for rough-housing.

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: voydangel on <11-15-10/1654:23>

Yea, I once had a semi-humorous incident with my cousin and a throw rug. We were rough housing and I did an aikido ground throw which should have put him on the ground like 2 feet from me and been funny. Except I failed to notice the throwrug on the linoleum floor and he landed on it and went sailing across the floor like he was on a bobsled and his head made a nice 18" head shaped (roundish) hole in the door to the next room. He had to get stitches and I felt really bad, but in retrospect it was pretty damn funny. Like something out of a movie.

Title: Re: Power throw adept power and Throw Menuver
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <11-15-10/2353:47>

An injury that doesn't kill you or permanently disable you is slapstick.

Slapstick is hilarious.