Shadowrun
Shadowrun Missions Living Campaign => Living Campaign Discussion => Topic started by: Pollution on <09-30-13/0946:17>
-
So, I'm running a small group, using SR5, and while we're not an official firebase (yet), we're trying to follow all the Season 5 rules so that characters can go from our bi-weekly game to conventions with their same characters.
Here's where I ran into trouble last night.
I have a mage in our group who want's a Rating 6 Centering Focus. Now, from what we could hash out from the FAQ and from other posts, we're left with the impression that he cannot simply make the calls to get a hold of the thing during a game, but MUST buy the rolls during downtime. Which leaves us with a bit of an issue. Mainly that the rating of the thing and the availability leaves it at 18R and costs 54k.
Now, for the record, he doesn't have the 54k (yet, but he's close). but the availability means he'll NEVER get it with downtimes, unless I'm mistaken.
So, let's say he has a charisma 5, Negotiation, 4. That means he get's 2 successes, whereas the avalability get's 4. So he needs to get 3 more hits. Does that mean he'll never get it?
OR, is this when you put in the "Buy extra dice" rules where he'd have to spend an extra 100% cost PER HIT? So if he needs 3 hits, he'd have to throw down about 220k for a lvl 6 metamagic/Centering foci?
That seems obscene.
Imagine if you were looking for a Superthyroid gland. 20R = 5 hits to overcome = you need 6 hits... So if you can get 3 hits, you need to spend 400% toal cost = 560,000Y
That seems a bit extreme.
If this is the case, I would suggest we change it from 25% per die to 25% per HIT. 75k is way more reasonable than 220k.
-
If you're playing Missions the answer is pretty much that you need to use a contact to get the gear. The mechanics for how contacts are used in Missions are somewhere over in the Missions play documents.
-
That doesn't really help though.
Using Loyalty (Charisma) + Connections (Negotiation) most people will be seeing the same(ish) dicepools if they do it themselves.
I guess my problem is that a 50K item should NEVER cost 200k That's just silly.
-
Don't forget that the contact's pool is actually Connection+Connection+Loyalty when shopping for the item. The character may still need to buy additional dice to get the pool up high enough, but that will at least give you a better starting point.
-
And that in the event of a tie the contact wins, but delivery time is doubled. So a Connection 6 Loyalty 1 Fixer (The best available for Missions) should be able to aquire anything up to availability 15 (IIRC) without extra money. Buying 1 hit would get him to Availability 19.
Remember that Missions is intentionally a low powered setting where aquiring gear is harder than it would be in a home game.
-
Does Missions cover for making the focus at all?
-
Does Missions cover for making the focus at all?
Basically anything that can be done in downtime is handled with buying hits, so you can make a foci, but it'll be used making dead average rolls.
-
Does Missions cover for making the focus at all?
Basically anything that can be done in downtime is handled with buying hits, so you can make a foci, but it'll be used making dead average rolls.
Actually, crafting your own foci is forbidden by the Missions FAQ.
Anyway, like others have been saying, a Force 6 Metamagic Focus is 18R, which means you need 16 dice: a 6/1 contact will be able to get it if you pay 75% extra, while Missions' 5/2 characters will require 100% extra (but if you play your cards right, you may be able to get them to 5/4 through runs, meaning only 50% extra).
Alternatively, if your group has a good fixer-y face (8 or 7 Charisma, Negotiation 6, specialization), you should be able to get it at normal or +25% cost.
-
Actually, crafting your own foci is forbidden by the Missions FAQ.
Good catch. Sorry for missing that.
-
Missions is mostly a low-powered campaign, so it's not that weird that the really powerful stuff can't easily be obtained. 54k nuyen and 18 karma is ~1/3 of a season for a single item. Still, it'd be nice if in the second half of Season 5 we can score Availability discount favors, for the high-rating foci, Krime Cannons, Ranger Arms, Full Body Armor and such things.
A 6/1 contact has 13 dice so needs 3 dice bought for everything below 20, a 5/2 Corp Contact can be raised through runs to 5/4 if you play your cards right, letting you pay 50% extra for everything below 20. Meanwhile, a Chemical Seal Environmental Adaptation (the latter is irrelevant for availability) Full Body Armor at 23R (20R without the adaptation) requires a total of 2.5x the base cost to obtain.
-
Alright, so lets take Juan Xihuitl as an example.
So let's assume that you buy him at his max starting Loyalty of 2 and he has 5 connection.
Would that be Connection + Connection + Loyalty for the search pool of 5+5+2 = 12 = 4 hits?
So then you get:
Contact search = 4 hits base
Item = 18R = 4 hits base
Item is gathered in Time x2 (so if 1 week, then 2 weeks)
Correct?
-
Incorrect. The contact has 12 dice, which becomes 3, not 4, bought hits, while the item has 18 dice, which becomes 4 bought hits.
-
So you pump him to 5/4 by working with him a few times and pay 50% extra for 5+5+4+2 = 16 dice instead.
-
Does Missions cover for making the focus at all?
Basically anything that can be done in downtime is handled with buying hits, so you can make a foci, but it'll be used making dead average rolls.
Actually, crafting your own foci is forbidden by the Missions FAQ.
Anyway, like others have been saying, a Force 6 Metamagic Focus is 18R, which means you need 16 dice: a 6/1 contact will be able to get it if you pay 75% extra, while Missions' 5/2 characters will require 100% extra (but if you play your cards right, you may be able to get them to 5/4 through runs, meaning only 50% extra).
Alternatively, if your group has a good fixer-y face (8 or 7 Charisma, Negotiation 6, specialization), you should be able to get it at normal or +25% cost.
I though that only contacts could obtain gear in Missions play. Can a player that is a face get their own gear?
Also, how do you go about raising the loyalty of non-missions specific characters? Is there any chance to raise a L1 C6 starting fixer?
-
By the way, Pollution: I think you can in fact buy gear during game, but it requires buying hits all the same. So a cheap toy that just requires 1 hit and has a delivery time of 6 hours, would deliver within 3 hours against someone with 12~15 dice. And availability - is simply available.
Arioch: Players can still get gear, but keep in mind it takes you the full delivery period to hunt down in Missions. So if you're getting a 20k item with a tied test, it will cost you two full weeks on your calender.
As for loyalty of non-missions specific characters: Yes, GMs are allowed to say you raised their loyalty. But this requires a LOT of work, so while theoretically possible, you'd be very lucky just to get a single loyalty point somehow.
-
I have a mage in our group who want's a Rating 6 Centering Focus. Now, from what we could hash out from the FAQ and from other posts, we're left with the impression that he cannot simply make the calls to get a hold of the thing during a game, but MUST buy the rolls during downtime. Which leaves us with a bit of an issue. Mainly that the rating of the thing and the availability leaves it at 18R and costs 54k.
Now, for the record, he doesn't have the 54k (yet, but he's close). but the availability means he'll NEVER get it with downtimes, unless I'm mistaken.
So, let's say he has a charisma 5, Negotiation, 4. That means he get's 2 successes, whereas the avalability get's 4. So he needs to get 3 more hits. Does that mean he'll never get it?
Here are some tips directed towards your group's mage:
1) Buy the Bargaining specialization for Negotiation - it's only 7 Karma to get you +2 dice.
2) I don't see anything preventing you from using teamwork with your contact. If you have a Loyalty 2, Connection 5 contact (12 dice), and you buy 2 hits with your 9 dice to assist him, your contact is up to 14 dice. Pay an extra 50%, and you can buy 4 hits - enough to get anything up to Availability 19.
3) If your group has a Face with the 16+ dice needed, give him the money to buy the item (plus a bit extra for his time spent).
4) Combine 2 and 3. It means both you and the face have to spend time acquiring the item, but better to pay your party member extra than let the money go to an NPC.
5) Lower your expectations - a Centering Focus 6 is a game-changer, and it should be very, very hard to acquire.
-
and a level 4 focus is pretty easy to acquire, and two dice is really not that much more
-
2) I don't see anything preventing you from using teamwork with your contact.
That is an interesting approach, might want to run it by Bull to see if teamwork is allowed in this manner.
-
Or Leadership, for that matter :D
-
Remember that Missions is intentionally a low powered setting where aquiring gear is harder than it would be in a home game.
Just what my players will want to hear. "Great news, everybody! You'll all start as putzes, and you'll remain putzes throughout the campaign! Won't that be great to play?"
-
Remember that Missions is intentionally a low powered setting where aquiring gear is harder than it would be in a home game.
Just what my players will want to hear. "Great news, everybody! You'll all start as putzes, and you'll remain putzes throughout the campaign! Won't that be great to play?"
If those characters will not be going into other Missions games, you can tweak things as much as you want.
-
Low Power does not equal Putz either. Just because you won't have easy access to really-expensive stuff with high availabilities, doesn't mean the characters will never amount to anything.
-
Low Power does not equal Putz either. Just because you won't have easy access to really-expensive stuff with high availabilities, doesn't mean the characters will never amount to anything.
Fair point - "putz" does not describe a chargen SR5 character at all.
-
Remember that Missions is intentionally a low powered setting where aquiring gear is harder than it would be in a home game.
Just what my players will want to hear. "Great news, everybody! You'll all start as putzes, and you'll remain putzes throughout the campaign! Won't that be great to play?"
While there is hyperbole being used here, that doesn't mean that he is wrong.
When it comes to advancement, there should be very significant increases by the time a character reaches the 150 Karma point of retirement that Missions uses (going by what the retirement point was for the previous Season). The Street Sam for example with his implants and such should have two or three of his implants maxed out in rating and upgraded to Beta or Delta grade by that point, and the Magician and/or Adept should have a few Force 6 foci. The Decker should be sitting on a deck that is at least the second best and the Rigger should be sitting on having several vehicles each for land, air and sea and have a damn good control console along with enough drones to practically be able to invade a small country (thinking one of those countries not much bigger than Rhode Island here). Not to mention that all of the characters should be reliably able to cover a High lifestyle every month by that point with money to spare to save for upgrading more of their stuff.
-
All4BigGuns I see a lot of "should" where you "should" be using the word "could".
Keep in mind that since Missions is limited in both nuyen and karma rewards, so will your opponents likely not be Great Dragons. So while some of you may "expect" to see 150 karma characters decked out in milspec gear and wielding the most powerful items in the world, that certainly doesn't have to be the case.
A well rounded Missions character has tremendous potential to grow skillwise, as well as character wise, even if you hyper or even just semi-specialize. In missions, you're not SUPPOSED to need 20+ dice pools, because your enemies won't have anything like that...
-
All4BigGuns I see a lot of "should" where you "should" be using the word "could".
Keep in mind that since Missions is limited in both nuyen and karma rewards, so will your opponents likely not be Great Dragons. So while some of you may "expect" to see 150 karma characters decked out in milspec gear and wielding the most powerful items in the world, that certainly doesn't have to be the case.
A well rounded Missions character has tremendous potential to grow skillwise, as well as character wise, even if you hyper or even just semi-specialize. In missions, you're not SUPPOSED to need 20+ dice pools, because your enemies won't have anything like that...
Whether one needs it or not is not in question. However, Missions calls those retired characters "Prime Runners" and a "Prime Runner" shouldn't still be sitting at low ratings in their implants/foci. The Prime Runner should be a scary force in both skill and equipment, and he/she should have gotten into the point where he's living the "high life".
-
Maybe you need to redefine your perception of "high life" for a former runner? There are plenty of examples in the books that have been released over the years of runners "living it up" by retiring only so they can run a bar, or a diner, or live comfortably and not get shot at.
Being a Prime Runner could just as easily be about being well known and connected (which, at 150 karma, with a large contact network and knowledge of a lot of things is certainly the case) as opposed to living it up with a Permanent Luxury Lifestyle, millions of nuyen, and all the wiz gear.
Just go with it, man. It's not going to change, so why waste energy being upset about it? Try playing as a character who has to struggle for his meal ticket, who runs because he HAS to and not because he wants to. Or don't; but stop complaining about "unfairness" and "should" when the campaign clearly has been developed with other goals in mind, and just play Missions with your own modifications.
I intend to play it as described, a lower-level campaign than usual, with some additional challenges; and, judging from the fun I've had creating my character and laying plans for where I want to take him, I'll have lots of fun in the process. Your mileage may vary, so feel free to ignore this advice like I'm sure you will...
-
Whether one needs it or not is not in question. However, Missions calls those retired characters "Prime Runners" [...]
In Season 5, not retired, just doing different things. Or at least I think that's the idea behind Prime Runner missions.
-
Well, I'm in an interesting position with my group. We have 4 players and me, 1 of the players is an experienced SRGM and will be running missions while I get to play. The other is an Agent and can also run missions.
So i came up with a solution for all this silliness.
I made a retired thief B&E specialist. I figured he would need to fence a lot of gear,and is just coming out of retirement, having spent the last few years fencing stuff for his buddies or for runners.
So, Charisma 6, Negotiations 6, Bargaining Specialty which will give us 3 hits = Avail up to 12 and spent my Karma that I earned running games for these guys to get up to Negotiation 9. Now, with Tailored Pheromones and/or First Impression, I should be able to get up to Availability 20 items for my runners.
Of course, he'll take an extra 15% for 1 week searches and %25 for 1 month searches, but hey, a brother's gotta make a profit.
For higher availability items that are just out of reach....there's always a teamwork test (give me 4 dice and I can go to 24).
-
3 hits gets you up to availability of 15, which you can do with a 2/5 or 1/6 starting-level contact in SRM.
-
3 hits gets you up to availability of 15, which you can do with a 2/5 or 1/6 starting-level contact in SRM.
No, 3 hits gets you up to availability 12 (you round down on buying hits).
To get Availability 15, you need 4 hits.
-
Pollution; except that an avail 15 item rolls 15 dice which buys 3.75 hits, which is then rounded down to 3 hits...
As long as your contact can get at least 3 hits (12 to 15 dice) he can get avail 15 items or less, but avail 12 through 15 will take twice as long to deliver because the avail roll is tied.
-
3 hits gets you up to availability of 15, which you can do with a 2/5 or 1/6 starting-level contact in SRM.
No, 3 hits gets you up to availability 12 (you round down on buying hits).
To get Availability 15, you need 4 hits.
The availability rounds down on hits as well, and you win ties.
-
Bear in mind that a tie on the opposed test means delivery takes twice as long.
-
Yeah, I'm a dumbass.
Though, that does mean that my own character can buy things up to avail. 23. :D
-
@Pollution How do you get 20 dice when the max Negotiation skill is 6 (7) + 2 for Specialization + Charisma? At best, I'd think you could manage 8 CHA, which would put you at 16 (17), which buys 4 hits putting you at Avail 19...
I doubt that things like Pheromones apply to those tests, which is the only way I can see reaching 20 dice.
-
martin: Possible that he's bought up his Negotiation a bit.
At this point, depending on how many conventions you've attended (Or been a part of some of the playtest groups), it's possible to have played 8 of the CMP 2010 compilation adventures (Sprawl Wilds and Firing Line), 8 2013 CMPs (Dragon's Song and Dangerous Games), 6 Season 5 SRM's, plus the Origins and Gen Con LARP event. So it is possible that you could have somewhere in the neighborhood of 120+ karma already. And even above rating 6 skills aren't that expensive to raise.
Crazy, I know!
-
Speaking of, any indication of when the 2013 CMPs will be available for purchase for us non-convention going plebs?
-
@Pollution How do you get 20 dice when the max Negotiation skill is 6 (7) + 2 for Specialization + Charisma? At best, I'd think you could manage 8 CHA, which would put you at 16 (17), which buys 4 hits putting you at Avail 19...
I doubt that things like Pheromones apply to those tests, which is the only way I can see reaching 20 dice.
Elf social adept with augmented charisma, a enhanced skill, totem bonus, and a maxed, specialized skill rolls 26 at chargen
-
By the way: Why wouldn't pheromones apply?
Anyway: 8 Charisma, 6 Negotiation, +2 Bargaining, +3 Improved Negotiation, just 1 die short even without augmenting charisma (how does an adept boost charisma?) and mentor spirit. Can go 7 charisma and Dragon Slayer, or 7/8 Charisma, Aptitude, 7 Negotiation and +4/+3 Negotiation. All you need in Missions, really. Sacrifice 1 Magic for Tailored Pheromones 3 and go full-out and bam, 24 dice.
-
Perhaps by "adept" he means "mystic adept". Then he has access to the Increase Charisma spell.
-
I can see an argument made to not allow tailored pheromones. It's not always a single negotiation, it's a series of them, and many of the people you're going to need to talk to won't be able or willing to meet you face to face. Honestly, in a world of things like tailored pheromones, mind control spells, and emotitoys (under 4th ed at least), it's frankly a miracle that ANY meet happens face to face rather than in a relatively controlled online environment.
However, for the sake of simplicity, they're fine. Just keep in mind the time it take to get items, and the restriction of one item (or group of the same items that you would naturally buy in bulk, like ammo) at a time.
-
Perhaps by "adept" he means "mystic adept". Then he has access to the Increase Charisma spell.
Ah, that gets me... 25? 8[12] charisma, 6[9]+2+2 negotiation = 25. 26 with Aptitude or Exceptional Charisma, which are both a bit over the top.
Emotitoys should burn, burn, burn. :)
-
martin: Possible that he's bought up his Negotiation a bit.
At this point, depending on how many conventions you've attended (Or been a part of some of the playtest groups), it's possible to have played 8 of the CMP 2010 compilation adventures (Sprawl Wilds and Firing Line), 8 2013 CMPs (Dragon's Song and Dangerous Games), 6 Season 5 SRM's, plus the Origins and Gen Con LARP event. So it is possible that you could have somewhere in the neighborhood of 120+ karma already. And even above rating 6 skills aren't that expensive to raise.
Crazy, I know!
Speaking of skills above 6, is Missions using the skill training times, since they get so huge so quickly? I've been assuming that it was, but I figured I'd ask.
-
Yup. But keep in mind you can take breaks in the middle of training to do shadowruns (in fact, you need to, since tehre's a limit to how much time you can go without running :)).
-
Emotitoys should burn, burn, burn. :)
*IF* Emotitoys and the associated software return in SR5, I imagine it will be a good deal different, considering the fact that pretty much everyone and their dog went "Holy crap this is broken". :)
-
The dogs usually after they chewed them into bits.
Going from 8 to 9 will cost you 18 weeks. o_O That's 4.5 runs in downtime and 3 runs in karma. 6->10 is basically 68 karma and 53 training weeks so 1.25 years including 13 runs (which pay the karma just fine). Assuming you can simultaneously train an Attribute at the same time (training rules are a bit ambiguous right now), it's doable I guess.
Oh, Bull, I checked Firing Line, dicepools are 12+, 12+, 12+, 11- and none feel like a real do-good run, so that's 6/6/6/5 karma right?
-
Sounds about right. though after getting ShadowRon's ASS kicked in Humanitarian Aid, I'm beginning to rethink the karma award for that one. ;)
[spoiler]Auslander is a beast if the GM goes balls to the wall. Force 8 Shedim. He overcasts toxic Wave at Force 16. Plus pre-edges the casting roll, so he's got 24 dice with exploding 6's, starting at 16DV with -16 AP. holy drek! Ow. I ended the fight one box of overflow from burning permanent edge to stay alive. two players at the other table at our Firebase that Tinner ran DID die (though he pulled the Toxic Wave a little, but they had a tougher time with the fights before that, so both dead characters had taken a beating already).[/spoiler]
-
[spoiler]In our case, Auslander did cast Armor first since Shedim don't have Immunity. That put him at a -2 on all his test, he rolled 9 hits with Edge in our case on that Armor roll. He had 2 Shedim with him, after the 5 players had managed to beat 9 Shedim and the mage was pretty banged up. Mage ended up overcasting an area spell, we didn't know how to apply Spell Defense so applied it to the Resistance roll, not the spellcasting roll. Otherwise that spell probably would have knocked out a few players as well as soften up the good ol' doc.
Now since Regeneration doesn't recover Drain damage, I don't think he'd be foolish enough to overcast his spells unless he feels cornered. In Romero&Juliette, the adventure notes he will not overcast until he really feels forced. Also, at that Force, he'd have a hard time hitting the team and not himself on an island of only about 100m diameter and a much smaller clearing.
In all fairness I should note that in Romero & Juliette's 'recap' of Humanitarian Aid, the team went down except for 1, but they managed to survive without casualties.
I also think the Shedim got too much Edge. Spirits got halved in SR5, Shedim probably should too. Romero&Juliette pretty much confirmed Auslander was too tough by letting him start with only 4 Edge.[/spoiler]
At 8 Edge and roughly following the implied guideline of 2 enemies per player at the start (a dozen said in synopsis, with 6 players on a team that's 2 per), I agree it's definitely much tougher. ^_^ Still, he shouldn't be overcasting, drain damage hurts too much, too suicidal.
-
[spoiler]Shedim lack Immunity to Normal Weapons only because there are no rules in SR5 for Possession. In SR4, a spirit possessing a vessel became dual-natured and had Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 102, Street Magic).
Strangely, Auslander lacks even the Possession power in the SR5 stat block (as do the other Shedim).[/spoiler]
-
[spoiler]They didn't have it listed in their SR4 stats either though, if I recall correctly, in SW. We played him without Immunity, with Immunity he becomes way, way tougher. At that point, even with halved Edge, he's very very VERY dangerous even by himself against a group of 6.[/spoiler]
-
[spoiler]yeah, that got overlooked. Obviously they were possessing, since they had bodies. And we used the Immunity power for them, since, well, we're us. Oi. ShadowRon is not fond of Force 6 and 8 Spirits either, lemme tell you. :) [/spoiler]
-
[spoiler]With Immunity and without his backup, and if Spell Defense decreases AoE spell hits to cause scatter... Of course, the GM didn't let us use a Spirit's Concealment and said Auslander and co. had taken Perception tests in advance so it didn't matter I was sneaking in the bushes at their +3 instead of -2. With a much tougher encounter, I imagine he'd have given us more chances to prepare proper defenses, his inexperience with Missions GMing was partially at play here. Oh, and he forgot that where we took -3 from Heavy Fog with Thermographic Vision, the Shedim would have been at -6. Whups. ^_^' He did mention that as Missions complaint: No clear description of what level the modifiers are on.
With my sniper hidden in the bushes I'd have shot Auslander half to death, even if both of us used Edge on that first shot. If you also do not give him a full 8 Edge but, like Spirits, 4 instead, he'd get drained faster. So that makes it decently survivable, though very tough.
Of course the next point of debate is how many Shedim you face in advance, since those soften up the players. GM went "you guys are taking too long, roll Sneaking" and bam, it'd have been easier if we'd had managed that more sneaky, especially when taking potshots in advance.
Let's see... Auslander isn't taking a Simple Perception action at first and focusing on those in the clearing, so that'd be a -2. Give him a -6 from the fog and we're talking 8 perception dice vs 15 sneaking dice, bam. And that's without Concealment. So a sneaky sniper potshot is an option. Roll 12 dice after vision penalties, reroll for ~7 hits, 12P/-8 +7 = 19P/-8. 8 Body + Immunity 16-8=16 dice + 4 autohits, edge it with a reroll for 9 hits: 6 damage taken. And just like that he's halfway gone. But without that, oh boy... The clearing is what, 30m radius? A Force 8 Toxic Wave likely hits most in the clearing.
Now I want to do this fight properly with Immunity from Possession, a dozen Shedim vs 6 players, and let the players be smart and plan tactics, rather than getting caught flatfooted because they suddenly have to roll Sneaking even when one character can't sneak.[/spoiler]
-
[spoiler]Why is everyone posting in spoilers?
Giving Auslander Immunity would be... painful. I'd have certainly ran him without additional Shedim if that were the case. As it was, the balance seemed nice, with the players having serious difficulty, but prevailing in the end (the extra 2 shedim were basically cannon fodder at this point).
The perception thing was... annoying to adjudicate. Between thermographic vision and shadow cloak and a nonspecified amount of darkness and fog means I basically fudged it. I did roll at -3 for the Shedim though (same as the players), that's why they only saw one of you (who rolled 1 success on his stealth - and the Shedim do have one sweet dice pool). And the only reason why they got to make that at all was because you were all taking your sweet time. I expected you all to shoot them in the head the moment you realized what was going on but after minutes passed I figured it was time for a perception check.
The penalty didn't apply to Auslander because he assensed you. I still made the roll to spot you (and only you I believe - most people were walking in the open, no roll needed). He just happened to roll rather high. As to why he assensed you - the mission describes him coming out of nowhere and surprising everyone by smashing someone against a tree. He's a rather brilliant character, I figured it'd make sense for him to look and see what he's dealing with before rolling in. And he's smart enough to glance to the side to see if there's snipers hidden in the bushes.
Auslander ended up doing a fair bit of damage, but I didn't let him cast excessively high force spells. Turns out that was a good choice - I still ended up almost knocking him out from drain before the players could do serious damage.[/spoiler]
-
At that point we get into the waspnest named Assensing vs Sneaking. But there's 2 things to note.
1: That still means he took his sweet time observing.
2: I was in the middle of a forest, surrounded by auras. Also astral visibility penalties.
-
@Pollution How do you get 20 dice when the max Negotiation skill is 6 (7) + 2 for Specialization + Charisma? At best, I'd think you could manage 8 CHA, which would put you at 16 (17), which buys 4 hits putting you at Avail 19...
I doubt that things like Pheromones apply to those tests, which is the only way I can see reaching 20 dice.
Without anything weird, I have my 6 Charisma + 6 Negotiation + Bargaining at chargen. That's 14 dice. Spent karma for Negotiation 7 & 8 gives me 16 dice.
Now it get's into the area of GM discretion, as RAW for the other 4 dice would be:
Tailored pheromones: These pheromones
are specially tailored to subtly
influence others and can be released
at will. Tailored pheromones add their
Rating as a dice pool modifier to your
skill tests for skills in the Acting and Influence
skill groups, but only when the
person you’re using them on is within a
comfortable conversation range—if they
can’t smell you, the pheromones don’t
work. Tailored pheromones also work
on you to make you feel better about
yourself; increase your Social limit by the
Rating. Tailored pheromones have no effect on magical
abilities and tests.
So,RAW, if you're combing the streets and markets looking for a deal on the item in question (chatting up fixers in a bar, or dropping hints to legitimate gun dealers) then you'd get the bonus for that. As Negotiation is in the Influence skill group, you're good to go. So that's +2 Dice. Since Bull approved this method above, we're all good.
The First Impression quality enables a character to slide
easily into new environments, situations, groups, and
jobs. Whether infiltrating a gang, making contacts in
a new city, or wrangling an invite to a private meet,
the character gains a temporary +2 dice pool modifier
for relevant Social Tests such as Negotiation and Con
during the first meeting. This modifier does not apply
to second and subsequent encounters
Again, RAW, this would work in many cases. Now this one is a bit of a stretch.but as a GM I would allow it. you're not going to deal with the same folk when you're looking for new and different equipment all the time. So again, first time meeting a Fixer in a bar trying to get a line on a restricted or forbidden item, he's going to be hesitant to sell info to you on where to get the item (he doesn't know you, you could be an Ares spy, or undercover Lone Star/K.E.), First Impression would help with that. Again, that one may be pushing it a bit, but it would work in my home games. it's RAW that Negotiation is affected, so there's the other +2. And, if we're allowing Tailored Pheromones, this makes sense too. A bit shiftier, but still legit.
I cannot find anywhere in the book where these two are considered not legit with buying equipment. Quite the contrary, they SPECIFICALLY mention Negotiation (or Influence skills).
And, the best part (IMO) is that I went Skills, Attr, Nuyen, Human, Magic for my chargen, so I'm actually decent in a fight too (13 dice for Firearms group and I also have Wired Ref. so he's not weak)
-
By the way: Why wouldn't pheromones apply?
Anyway: 8 Charisma, 6 Negotiation, +2 Bargaining, +3 Improved Negotiation, just 1 die short even without augmenting charisma (how does an adept boost charisma?) and mentor spirit. Can go 7 charisma and Dragon Slayer, or 7/8 Charisma, Aptitude, 7 Negotiation and +4/+3 Negotiation. All you need in Missions, really. Sacrifice 1 Magic for Tailored Pheromones 3 and go full-out and bam, 24 dice.
Elf with exceptional charisma, aptitude, totem bonus, Specialization, adept boost
9. Tailored Pheromones gets you too 26 face to face, first impression could also be put in the mix
-
The First Impression quality enables a character to slide easily into new environments, situations, groups, and jobs. Whether infiltrating a gang, making contacts in a new city, or wrangling an invite to a private meet, the character gains a temporary +2 dice pool modifier for relevant Social Tests such as Negotiation and Con during the first meeting. This modifier does not apply to second and subsequent encounters
Again, RAW, this would work in many cases. Now this one is a bit of a stretch.but as a GM I would allow it. you're not going to deal with the same folk when you're looking for new and different equipment all the time. So again, first time meeting a Fixer in a bar trying to get a line on a restricted or forbidden item, he's going to be hesitant to sell info to you on where to get the item (he doesn't know you, you could be an Ares spy, or undercover Lone Star/K.E.), First Impression would help with that. Again, that one may be pushing it a bit, but it would work in my home games. it's RAW that Negotiation is affected, so there's the other +2. And, if we're allowing Tailored Pheromones, this makes sense too. A bit shiftier, but still legit.
I see nothing legit about allowing First Impression for obtaining gear. Something with a high Availability will have very few channels through which it can be obtained (so at the very least, this would only work once unless the item categories are vastly different), and depending on circumstances, it's entirely possible you'll end up dealing with the same person multiple times during a single try (unless you're saying all leads will be 100% successful and you won't have to go back to someone to ask for another lead, or to arrange transport for the gear they helped you locate). At the very least, "make sure never to deal with a single person more than once" sounds like it would give a negative dice pool modifier.
-
At the end of the day, I ultimately feel this isn't a huge issue. There are a few limits in place to keep this from being abusive during downtime, and the uber-face pronomancers can often only do so much in-game, since we cap the money from the various Mr. Johnsons to keep negotiations from getting out of hand, and often a face alone just cannot do the job you need to do. If someone is investing that heavily into being a face, they have gaps in other areas that the rest of the team will need to fill and need to utilize during the game, and that's as it should be.
Everyone has their role, and so long as one character isn't dominating the entire game session, then we're doing it right. :)
-
You dominate the entire game session in one thing: You dominate in dying! *insert dalek cackle*
-
You dominate the entire game session in one thing: You dominate in dying! *insert dalek cackle*
On a completely off-topic point, I just feel the need to poke my head in and mention how awesome the exchange you're referencing was.
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBSOhODoch0#t=2m52s
-
You dominate the entire game session in one thing: You dominate in dying! *insert dalek cackle*
DALEKS. DO. NOT. CHUCKLE. DALEKS. ONLY. HATE. AND. DESTROY! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!