Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Mirikon on <09-18-13/1102:39>
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Since the nostalgia train is in full swing with 5th edition, will we see a return of Shadowland-style postings? Where anyone who can hack their way in (or scores an invite) can post?
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Since the nostalgia train is in full swing with 5th edition, will we see a return of Shadowland-style postings? Where anyone who can hack their way in (or scores an invite) can post?
From what is said in the core rulebook, I get a feeling the philosophy of the "new" Jackpoint is much closer to the old Shadowland.
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I don't really like all that nostalgia around... and I'm an old boogie of the gaming side...
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I don't really like all that nostalgia around... and I'm an old boogie of the gaming side...
really??
I wasn't happy with the change in slang from 3rd to 4th edition and am happy they have gone back to the "old 3rd edition" ways of slang...
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I don't really like all that nostalgia around... and I'm an old boogie of the gaming side...
really??
I wasn't happy with the change in slang from 3rd to 4th edition and am happy they have gone back to the "old 3rd edition" ways of slang...
Sacred cows and white elephants are rarely good things, in games or in real life. The new edition is chock full of nostalgia for nostalgia's sake, changing things that worked (if not always well) in ways that add complexity instead of removing it, while keeping things that ought to have changed but remained because people got warm fuzzies, saying that it had always been that way, so it certainly couldn't change.
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I don't really like all that nostalgia around... and I'm an old boogie of the gaming side...
really??
I wasn't happy with the change in slang from 3rd to 4th edition and am happy they have gone back to the "old 3rd edition" ways of slang...
Sacred cows and white elephants are rarely good things, in games or in real life. The new edition is chock full of nostalgia for nostalgia's sake, changing things that worked (if not always well) in ways that add complexity instead of removing it, while keeping things that ought to have changed but remained because people got warm fuzzies, saying that it had always been that way, so it certainly couldn't change.
Actually, I agree on both ends, for different reasons. Part of the language shift back to the "old" ways helps to emphasize the difference between then and now. Also, the new protocols get rid of a lot of the "script kiddie" hacking. Which actually strengthens deckers, RP-wise. The downside is I can see a lot of GMs having to run a separate game for the deckers, because they can't quite see a way to keep them integrated in the team for the real-world side of things. Magic has actually advanced to the point of Alchemy actually working, which means no more having to improvise on the fly for magicians. But even with that, you'd still need a spell-slinger or conjurer for those moments that weren't planned for. Riggers are now separated from hackers and deckers mechanically. Downside is that more specialization means less cover from another character on quite a few things, because it's become so specialized. Any edition has good and bad points. Good point on the older-style Shadowland coming back through Jackpoint is that now players and characters have more access to information. Downside is that now their opponents do, too.
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On the side of slang I'm with you, I like that better and if some return is not bad for me, I understood it can be NEVER as before because the world advance and all change. On that point I'm against to ALL the changes that hinder technology, all the technologic advances that come in just CAN'T come out with a stroke of a line except in case of a catastrophe(that not happened, yet). Yeah nanotechnology and skinlink I'm pointing at YOU.
Another thing make me cringe is HOW the decker returned, I'm not arguing the return of the Decker style but how, in two month or so ALL the matrix infrastructure changed at the point that Slamm-0! (not the last of the hacker there) got shunted off part of the Matrix from a day to another when you have to change apparatuses that mean months of work if not all the antennas around and this in all the world (Yeah I know happened the same after the second crash, don't like that transition either).
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On that point I'm against to ALL the changes that hinder technology, all the technologic advances that come in just CAN'T come out with a stroke of a line except in case of a catastrophe(that not happened, yet). Yeah nanotechnology and skinlink I'm pointing at YOU.
Yeah, that stuff shouldn't have happened, period.
Another thing make me cringe is HOW the decker returned, I'm not arguing the return of the Decker style but how, in two month or so ALL the matrix infrastructure changed at the point that Slamm-0! (not the last of the hacker there) got shunted off part of the Matrix from a day to another when you have to change apparatuses that mean months of work if not all the antennas around and this in all the world (Yeah I know happened the same after the second crash, don't like that transition either).
At least with the second crash it was more building on things already beginning to be put into place. With this latest one, it just seems like something thrown together just to get an excuse to bring decks back...
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I didn't like De La Mar from the beginning.
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Oh, there were storyline reasons for the new change, and it's not a complete rewiring, it's a serious change in the security protocols. And there were hints of it before Jet Set. Jet Set is where people really started to peg to what was going on. And there's a LOT of people out there who don't like De La Mar.
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I am fully behind SR5 and all of its "nostalgia."
See, I used to play a lot of Shadowrun and buy every Shadowrun book I could get my grubby little hands on... and then SR4 came out and made a large number of massive changes, some of which drastically changed the feel of the setting, and despite the frequently smoother-running mechanics left me unable to play much Shadowrun (my players and I were split, unable to agree on what was good about SR4 and what was bad).
SR5 is stepping back a few of those changes and putting the setting more in tune with what it once was, but still having progress of the in-game setting take place... and it manages to get my players and I to the point that we are at least willing to play it for a while and see if we can see eye-to-eye again (and if not, then I am left with hoping they miss Shadowrun enough to return to SR2 or 3)
I'll include a brief list of things that I am referring to when I say "changed the feel of the setting":
1. Universal Magical Theory - The differences between Shaman and Hermetic were fun and interesting, and added meaningful choices to what kind of "full magician" you were going to play
2. Augmented Reality Hacking - The whole point was "to get the decker actually out there in the meat with his team," or to phrase it differently, to fix a problem that didn't exist
3. Poorly thought out matrix rules - yes, the old matrix rules are also very rough... but completely removing Attributes from the hacking equation while also blurring the lines between the Decker and Rigger archetypes is a problem for me
4. Spellcasting - Spells were big and scary in old Shadowrun; if you wanted a good chance you were going to one-shot your target with a combat spell, you had to resist enough drain to seriously debilitate yourself (you want a deadly powerbolt, you have to soak deadly drain)... and SR4 made it so you could toss around powerbolts and have solid chances to take 0 drain even though you just completely destroyed your target.
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4. Spellcasting - Spells were big and scary in old Shadowrun; if you wanted a good chance you were going to one-shot your target with a combat spell, you had to resist enough drain to seriously debilitate yourself (you want a deadly powerbolt, you have to soak deadly drain)... and SR4 made it so you could toss around powerbolts and have solid chances to take 0 drain even though you just completely destroyed your target.
As a player of a magician, I have to say no on that one. Not unless you spent Edge on the drain roll, and then it just became a possibility. A lot of GMs would have you have to overcome the Object Resistance Threshold of the armor before you could do any damage to the target. And casting things at a minimum of Force 12 to affect things was pretty far from taking no Drain on a casting.
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4. Spellcasting - Spells were big and scary in old Shadowrun; if you wanted a good chance you were going to one-shot your target with a combat spell, you had to resist enough drain to seriously debilitate yourself (you want a deadly powerbolt, you have to soak deadly drain)... and SR4 made it so you could toss around powerbolts and have solid chances to take 0 drain even though you just completely destroyed your target.
As a player of a magician, I have to say no on that one. Not unless you spent Edge on the drain roll, and then it just became a possibility. A lot of GMs would have you have to overcome the Object Resistance Threshold of the armor before you could do any damage to the target. And casting things at a minimum of Force 12 to affect things was pretty far from taking no Drain on a casting.
Never made my players overcome object resistance threshold for armor, doesn't seem right. Seen a force 12 mana bolt being thrown at a target and inflicting 20 boxes of damage.... result was 1 box of stun drain. The drain roll was edged though an dthe placyer character had the right mix of bioware to move the drain to stun and reduce it by one box. Nasty but a lot of fun.
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4. Spellcasting - Spells were big and scary in old Shadowrun; if you wanted a good chance you were going to one-shot your target with a combat spell, you had to resist enough drain to seriously debilitate yourself (you want a deadly powerbolt, you have to soak deadly drain)... and SR4 made it so you could toss around powerbolts and have solid chances to take 0 drain even though you just completely destroyed your target.
As a player of a magician, I have to say no on that one. Not unless you spent Edge on the drain roll, and then it just became a possibility. A lot of GMs would have you have to overcome the Object Resistance Threshold of the armor before you could do any damage to the target. And casting things at a minimum of Force 12 to affect things was pretty far from taking no Drain on a casting.
As a GM that actually read the rules, I'd have to say that no - not "a lot" of GMs would make you overcome the Object Resistance of the target's armor before you could do damage... because the rules specifically say that armor doesn't protect you from direct spells (note that I was talking about powerbolt, not lightning bolt - so direct spell all the way)
I saw, constantly because I have a player that has always loved mages, human hermetics with Spellcasting (Combat) 6 (+2), Magic 6, and Logic 6... and he never needed any combat spells besides Manabolt and Powerbolt - just pick whichever one you think targets the lower attribute of your target (or manabolt if you think the attributes are close/the same)
He perfectly soaks the drain of a force 8 manabolt or a force 6 powerbolt on average... and even higher force if he chose to make them limited to get extra drain dice, and it only actually takes a force 6 spell of the right type to put your target on the ground since you will average enough net hits to fill up 10 boxes.
Not to forget to mention, a force 12 manabolt is 6 drain and the above character averages 4 hits to resist drain (5 if a limited spell), so no, having to cast force 12 spells is not "pretty far from tacking no Drain on a casting."
Last note: Yes, the character is the best he can be at a particular thing at character creation... that's pretty standard procedure for many players in a system where it is not only inefficient (karma) to do otherwise, but there is no notable downside to choosing to do so. This means that "best you can be at character creation," needs to not be quite so impressive.
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I have to specifiy that I'm talking primarly about the game fluff wise not his implementation rulewise, from the point of a somewhat realistic evolution in metaplot SR had in all his edition either technology and magic MUST evolve, the principal motive SR is alive, apart from someone put money in it, is his live history, this is the difference with cyberpunk that was dead in all account, the RL take it on technology and the cultural not have all the weight has in his prime, not so Shadowrun, it evolve!Either in the sci-fy version of science, in the magic sector and in the ideology behind all that. I'm full support either the Nanotech and UMT because is natural evolution of the things, and with that I'm not saying they are the ONLY evolution of it, a shaman remain a shaman like an hermetic and like a possession mage or all the chrome and the other "medicals".
Well color me a bit disappointed when I was hit by nostalgia books, I don't want to be harsh but well... putting the clock backward usually don't works, no technology could be "uninvented", same for magic, it's ok a bit of nostalgia once in a time but shouldn't be more than a bit. From the point of metaplot can't really uninvent anything in an evolving timeline as Shadowrun's one.
Well something like that happened, I'm not talking about calling Decker an Hacker or use the old lingo in shadowtalk, even the lingo evolve though, and SR is FAST,ask any Great Scaliness if you dare...
OK reading this seems more bad than I really think but those things are there... and I think I don't like it because was projected not at the "new" players but to sell the game to the old boogie like me but is a bit shortsighted if that, but yeah I'm doing a lot of inferences here from all the nostalgia around and maybe I wrong...
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no technology could be "uninvented", same for magic, it's ok a bit of nostalgia once in a time but shouldn't be more than a bit.
But it can be, if the game designers will it so. Dikote vanished without a word between editions. Perhaps it never existed. Perhaps it's just the standard for sword technology now. Either way I can no longer get a bonus to my sword from it.
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, I don't want to be harsh but well... putting the clock backward usually don't works, no technology could be "uninvented", same for magic, it's ok a bit of nostalgia once in a time but shouldn't be more than a bit. From the point of metaplot can't really uninvent anything in an evolving timeline as Shadowrun's one.
Well something like that happened, I'm not talking about calling Decker an Hacker or use the old lingo in shadowtalk, even the lingo evolve though, and SR is FAST,ask any Great Scaliness if you dare...
OK reading this seems more bad than I really think but those things are there... and I think I don't like it because was projected not at the "new" players but to sell the game to the old boogie like me but is a bit shortsighted if that, but yeah I'm doing a lot of inferences here from all the nostalgia around and maybe I wrong...
Technologies are "lost" all the time. and then re-invented.... So much so that it is scary. want a few examples?
Electricity is generally thought to have been discovered in the 1860s. Yet archeological evidence is pointing to the ancient Egyptians having electro-chemical batteries and filament light production....
The Pyramids of Mexico. Harsh terrain, few quarries, yet massive stone blocks seem to have been moved hundreds of miles .... or where they?
Mexico City, before the Spainards arrived was a floating city of 250,000... a feat we would be hard pressed to do today.
the printing press is credited to being invented in 1535 AD. Yet some Roman documents have recently surfaced, in them the writing was so precise, level and near perfect to each other. Current speculation is either the same highly skilled scholar wrote the documents, using an unknown method to keep his lettering, spacing, and angle precise, or a crude form of a printing press must have been used (which could also mean that the documents might have been mass produced as well.)
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Technologies are "lost" all the time. and then re-invented.... So much so that it is scary. want a few examples?
--Examples--
I see what you're saying as far as the examples you listed, but they were before modern systems of cataloguing technologies were in place like the Library of Congress and various countries Patent Offices, Brain Trusts and Information Repositories.
The problem isn't that the technology was 'Forgotten' but should be more along the lines of 'Totally Freaking Repressed' Or perhaps it was found to have unintended and lethal side effects? The problem isn't the lack of those items, but more the way they were deleted from canon.
Anyways, the Jackpoint stuff and Shadowland stuff is a necessary element to Shadowrun. Without it, the Living Campaigns lack any kind of cohesiveness, it's a sort of informational deus ex machina to disseminate information.
I do like the fact that they used a bit of forethought in thinking out how Jackpoint would actually work as a distributed vpn network as opposed to other, less tech-savvy solutions.
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If you want a modern example look at Betamax, minidisc, TiVo or HD-DVD. Technology goes out of use all the time, sometimes for really silly reasons.
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If you want a modern example look at Betamax, minidisc, TiVo or HD-DVD. Technology goes out of use all the time, sometimes for really silly reasons.
Betamax and HD-DVD were competing with VHS and Blu-ray respectively, and "lost". Not sure what happened with TiVo, but it does seem rather close to DVR.
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If you want a modern example look at Betamax, minidisc, TiVo or HD-DVD. Technology goes out of use all the time, sometimes for really silly reasons.
Betamax and HD-DVD were competing with VHS and Blu-ray respectively, and "lost". Not sure what happened with TiVo, but it does seem rather close to DVR.
I think TiVo was a little to ahead of it's time.... and that is why it failed.
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If you want a modern example look at Betamax, minidisc, TiVo or HD-DVD. Technology goes out of use all the time, sometimes for really silly reasons.
Betamax and HD-DVD were competing with VHS and Blu-ray respectively, and "lost". Not sure what happened with TiVo, but it does seem rather close to DVR.
I think TiVo was a little to ahead of it's time.... and that is why it failed.
TiVo did not fail. They are still around, still sold at Best Buy, and probably doing just fine.
...in fact, TiVo was so successful that now what were their innovations have become the "market standard", and every company that provides television service has put together their own TiVo-like devices so as to not lose every possible dollar to TiVo.
Saying TiVo failed is like saying that the first commercial cyberdeck failed - it's just wacky talk.
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...in fact, TiVo was so successful that now what were their innovations have become the "market standard", and every company that provides television service has put together their own TiVo-like devices so as to not lose every possible dollar to TiVo.
Hmm...no wonder it seems so close to DVR. Same thing with a different name basically.
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...in fact, TiVo was so successful that now what were their innovations have become the "market standard", and every company that provides television service has put together their own TiVo-like devices so as to not lose every possible dollar to TiVo.
Hmm...no wonder it seems so close to DVR. Same thing with a different name basically.
yea, did a little looking, looks like TiVo is the "sleeping giant" of the digital download age... they apparently hold many patents and liecense out the patents to brand names to build....
Not a bad money scheme really.... they have little production costs, and in return get a small share of Sony DVR sales...
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TiVo patented Shadowland?
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TiVo patented Shadowland?
sux being the last know huh?
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TiVo patented Shadowland?
Technically Bill Gates did, since he invented the VPN. Then sold the patent to VirnetX, then Microsoft got sued by that company for not paying them licensing fees to the tune of 105 Million Dollars. http://newsdesignlogo.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-security-software-company-which.html (http://newsdesignlogo.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-security-software-company-which.html) There's the link. The entire scenario is so amazingly post-modern.
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TiVo patented Shadowland?
Technically Bill Gates did, since he invented the VPN. Then sold the patent to VirnetX, then Microsoft got sued by that company for not paying them licensing fees to the tune of 105 Million Dollars. http://newsdesignlogo.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-security-software-company-which.html (http://newsdesignlogo.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-security-software-company-which.html) There's the link. The entire scenario is so amazingly post-modern.
Why three times? I wonder who holds the patent in Shadowrun. You think the Gates family got it back?
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I'm sure someone on this board will pop up with an obscure reference to how Shadowrun gov't's handle patent law.
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I'm sure someone on this board will pop up with an obscure reference to how Shadowrun gov't's handle patent law.
Simple - they don't. That'd be a function of the Corporate Court.
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It'd be a million times more efficient in the 2070s to do it that way.
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Imagine how Disney wants Copyright Law.
Got that? Good.
The average person (who cares) wishes that was all it was in Shadowrun.
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At least the Mousketeers won't be kicking down anyone's doors.
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Disney lawyers and PIs have gone on raids where ICE agents kicked down the doors and did the whole SWAT hard target entry. So that's not entirely true.
Anyway, you're all starting to mix up IP. There's a big difference between patent, trademark, copyright, and trade secrets.
As it stands now, the America Invents Act has expanded "prior art" to include anything published or patented anywhere in the world. It's always been expensive and time-consuming to file for a patent in the U.S. This made it even harder because now you need to search every other country's patent archives, and every patent office arranges and decides thing differently. It would be much easier if there were one global adjudicator and clearinghouse for all patents, trademarks, and copyrights. This would also be valuable since one of the bedrocks of patent law has been that you cannot get a patent on something you stole. Those only goes against basically every macguffin datasteal forever in SR. Of course, someone has to prove it, which is why corps want their deniable assets to be thorough and deniable. When it comes to direct conflicts over patents between the Big Ten the only authority they'll ever submit to is their own—via the Corporate Court.
Trademark and Copyrights would also be much more easily managed through one entity like the CC. The problem with Trade Secrets is ... they're secret. So I don't know where one would expect to seek protection once those are broken, but given how they usually are misappropriated I could see it being an issue in Contract Court (in the UCAS) or the Corporate Court itself depending on the circumstances.
Anyway, if the SEC has been privatized and globalized as a function of the Corporate Court per System Failure, I can easily see the PTO and Copyright Office also being privatized and subsumed by the Court. But as far as I know, this has never been established. Though looking at the unfair competition and trade practices claims that have arisen in SR (Aztechnology and Operation: RECIPROCITY; Fuchi v. Renraku) a lot of those did hinge on Antitrust and IP violations.
Though I know that the UCAS DOJ at least does still maintain its Antitrust Division. I assume the civil provisions of the Sherman, FTC, and related acts are also still in effect to let corporations slug it out. Likewise, most states also have antitrust statutes with with provisions for state and private enforcement. The CAS may or may not. Part of me thinks they'd be more business friendly and have much laxer laws, and the states may or may not have any at all to go with the whole idea of states as test labs for various legal policies. I'd expect Aztechnology basically has its own wing in the major Texas courthouses at this point as it puts up with their petty bullshit. PCC and Sioux have much more restrictive competition policies.
I also mention that because if something is law according to the Corporate Court, it is something that national courts could and may also treat as international law enforceable in their courts and/or by their governments. No need to bother a CC magistrate when Renraku can get an injunction in UCAS federal court and then have the Marshals enforce the order by stripping the offender's office, home, and bank accounts bare. I need to post my writeup on them sometime. They get no love IRL, but the UCAS Marshals are probably HAM in SR, especially with the new Matrix architecture given a sub-agency also enforces UCAS law on the Matrix.
EDIT: This is what my life has become. This is fun downtime for me.
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At least the Mousketeers won't be kicking down anyone's doors.
Funny, that is what I named the MouseCorp's SWAT team. ;D