Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Crimsondude on <10-30-10/1450:35>
-
This is based on a discussion that arose in discussing Spy Games.
On another forum, someone said that SR has turned into the Marvel Universe. I laughed because I've said the exact same thing since Arsenal came out, and especially after Runner's Companion. You can literally play Marvel superhumans in SR now because of power creep or whatever you want to call the fact that there are now rules to make nearly anything possible. Not that it wasn't before. I saw rules legal robot ninjas in 3e (I GMed them, in fact) and other crazy things. But now the floodgates are open.
Anyway, the suggestion is that this is a Very Bad Thing.
Fuck. That. Shit.
This game could give good old King Jack Kirby himself a run for his money any day when it comes to high concept ideas. So let's not pretend James Bond is beyond the pale. This is a game where an AI took over a cubic kilometer pyramid in downtown Seattle for 16 months to experiment to death on 90,000 of the 100,000 inhabitants in order to draw its creator out from hiding so it could download itself into 1,000 peoples' brains and then reupload itself to be a free-floating Matrix-dwelling AI during the IPO for one of the biggest corps in history until its "birth mother" fought it to the death as a Norse apocalypse cult teamed with a sociopathic computer-brain hacker blew up the Matrix and set off a nuclear weapon above the server farm as part of a plot to bring about Ragnarok/recreate the Matrix in her image.
That's canon. And that's one of the most hardcore adventures/campaigns and storylines I think has ever been published for SR (Well, RA:S, Brainscan and the Deus stuff in System Failure. As a whole that book is hit and miss, but it does not lack for vision). It's one part of a vast tapestry of ideas that are ultimately up to the players to actually set the tone according to their own whims.
I ran a year-plus long campaign that went even further down the rabbit hole. It took that insanity and jacked it up to 12. It begins with three runners paid an insane amount of money to successfully kidnap Nadja Daviar at the beginning of the campaign during a massive firefight at Sea-Tac. And then are ordered by Lugh Surehand, who was being hunted by his own men, to team up with a guy who is nearly an archvillain to rescue/kidnap someone from inside the SCIRE while a fragment of Deus and Tadashi Marushige tried to retake the building as part of a plan to take some measure of permanent political power over Seattle as a new haven for the Banded that ends with two ghosts and an ex-Mafia adept hitman performing a multi-combo kill of Marushige as a multi-thousand karma PC extracts a general from the SCIRE command center with a Delta team and a mage/drone battle occurs on the rooftop. And yet to this day almost everyone tells me it was a deep and compelling look at the closure of, well, Shadowland, and a satisfying closure to a lot of long-running character stories.
When those three runners acted in unison to destroy Marushige's magical protection (one PC), throw him through a wall (another), and then shoot him in the face (third) it would have looked like something out of The Expendables (actually, Statham performs the move the adept used to throw Tadashi through the wall during the fight in the tunnels) and yet it was dramatic and tense because two of those PCs have been looking to kill him for literally years IRL.
It's all to your taste. So why not toss a bone to the people who want to have some wacky hijinks every now and then? But there is nothing that precludes a dark and gritty story, even if you're using fairies and free spirits, AI, or robots.
I hope SR is like the Marvel U. Some of the most mature stories aren't the tortured, talky nonsense of Bendis, et al. It's Tobin and Parker writing the all-ages Marvel Adventures books where the Avengers became MODOKs and played baseball vs. Galactus, and tell stories without the lazy and overwrought tropes available to "adult" books. Oh, no. Purple Man isn't a mass-murdering rapist in Dr. Doom and the Masters of Evil. Still one of the best Doom stories written in decades. Stories and games don't suck because of ideas or characters. Ideas and characters are neutral. It's how they're used. And that's what I hope people understand.
If we do our job right, any type of story is possible. Any genre. Any theme. And to be fair to the last 20 years of authors of SR, who've I've given no end of shit to when I was young and stupid, they made a relatively sane game with batshit crazy elements. But now there are rules for some of the wackier stuff. And that's awesome. Because to paraphrase Predator: If there are rules for it, it can die.
Remember, Rule Zero for every group should be: Have Fun. Shadowrun is Awesome Town, population: You.
Besides, it's just a game. If you don't like it, ignore it or change it. No one's putting a gun to your head and making you use technomancer critter swarms and kitteh protosapients (I just don't like using contemporary names for stuff).
-
Hehe.
Fun fact. We were stating up Marvel characters in SR2. So this isn't really just an SR4 thing. I think it's just that since SR4 has come out, the nature of internet fandom has changed.
We used to be a group of fans who got together and celebrated the fact that we were all fans. Sure, there were arguments, but they rarely got all that heated. At the end of the day, we were all there because we loved the product, and we knew it.
These days? Internet fandom tends to be mean and spiteful. The vocal fans are perpetually disgruntled because things aren't done how they think they should be, no one else is allowed to have an opinion that varies from their own, and in general, they just all seem to enjoy being miserable and making others feel that way.
Slight tangent there, I know, but... The point is, 15 years ago, I wrote up rules for playing Spider-Man. I created rules for web shooters, someone else had created a custom Gecko Crawl adept power. And it was a fun time. Most of the folks on the old RN mailing list said "Hey, cool. I'd never use taht in my game, but good job." and that was that.
Other people created Wolverine (Really easy) and other superheroes. At one point, someone had rules for Caps Shield, throwing it, catching it, etc. The really crazy powerful characters tended to get left out, so no Superman or anything, but a lot of the low and mid-level heroes? They were done at one point or another. And no one said the game sucked because you could do that. No one said that we sucked fo thinking that was an interesting excercise in rules and character design.
Nowadays? If we started a thread about that, it would be lucky to get 20 posts in before someone starting bitching. Because apparently anyone having fun in a way that differs from theirs totally ruins the game for them. ;/
Wankers.
Hrmmm... You know... Maybe I'll work up a team of Marvel Hero based runners to use as an opposing Shadowrun team for Missions or something. :)
Bull
-
SR by its very nature IS high concept. When you can have a group of cyborg killing machines hanging out with wileders of archane art and those who can manipulate the flow of data with their mind; the fact that one can emulate "robot ninjas" is the least of their worries. I like SR for this very reason; I got a bit tired of playing sword and wand in or hardcore Sci-fi and nothing in-between. Yeah, SR is can be a lot to wrap their brain around, but that's part of the fun.
-
...
Hrmmm... You know... Maybe I'll work up a team of Marvel Hero based runners to use as an opposing Shadowrun team for Missions or something. :)
Bull
You totally should. My friends and I still make movie and comic characters for fun / character building exercise. It's especially fun when you can figure out 2 or 3 completely different ways to make the same movie/comic character.
-
These days? Internet fandom tends to be mean and spiteful. The vocal fans are perpetually disgruntled because things aren't done how they think they should be, no one else is allowed to have an opinion that varies from their own, and in general, they just all seem to enjoy being miserable and making others feel that way.
This used to be me.
-
Back in SR3 I wrote a smallish (unpublished) article on Superheroes in the Shadowrun universe. The piece was still in the early stages of writing (I think it was in the second draft) when the e-zine it was for folded up and I never did a real final draft.
My basic take was that there ARE superheroes in the Shadowrun universe. They're rare and they are for the most part mentally ill or people pushed beyond the point of a "reasonable" response into the unreasonable. They believe themselves to be real-life comic book heros. The original concept was based on the actual "real life" superheroes running around right now then adding in the ability to actually become super human.
While I never incorporated the article into my games formally, I have had two groups of runners run into someone claiming to be a superhero.
-
Patrick Goodman wrote something somewhat similar, once. If he stumbles across this thread he may post a link or something.
-
Patrick Goodman wrote something somewhat similar, once. If he stumbles across this thread he may post a link or something.
I rather hope he does. Since mine was never finished a lot of the ideas where "useably half formed" and I've never really gone back to finish it off. Seeing other's takes on the idea is interesting enough from that standpoint alone.
-
My basic take was that there ARE superheroes in the Shadowrun universe. They're rare and they are for the most part mentally ill or people pushed beyond the point of a "reasonable" response into the unreasonable.
Well, it makes sense. If you're SINless, in a SINless neighborhood where the corp cops don't patrol and you've got augmented abilities and a motivation to fight crime, its almost logical. Take the Signature Negative Quality so the Yakuza (or whoever) know who's hunting them. Put on a mask, which is pretty much standard shadow gear already. Even a single starting character can hold his own against your average street gangers if he plays his cards right. Voila, starting masked vigilante of the Batman/Shadow persuasion. Taking it that far is as sane and reasonable as any armed neighborhood protection group.
Add in a Code of Conduct about protecting the weak and not killing, no matter how much they deserve it, and you've got a comic book hero. It actually makes more sense in the world of SR than it does in a modern setting.
-
I tossed him a PM about it, to make sure he swings by and checks out the thread.
-
The only problem with anyone going off on the heroic, save the citizen, superhero is that anyone he really cheeses off is quite capable of demolishing him. That bit about not killing will simply get him killed. There aren't any real bricks running around in SR, aside from huge anthroform drones, so the damage output of any even slightly organized group will put the would-be hero down.
Not to mention the (relative) ease of following someone around with a watcher spirit and then having that spirit report back to his master so a strike team can take him out, or use a cloud of RFID tags to follow the guy and do the same thing, and anyone who becomes a serious threat to crime (organized or not) is writing their own death warrant.
Not that it can't be done, for a while at least, but the life expectancy of that individual will be really, really short.
-
Well, that kind of presupposes that you're going after people with that level of skill. I'm thinking more of your superhero who's just starting out. Chasing street thugs, maybe taking on a small band of Halloweenies as a big climactic battle. Think of guys like the Punisher and Daredevil or a much earlier Batman. They're outmatched by their opponents so they have to use stealth, planning and brains to even the odds. Kind of like Shadowrunners that way. Now sure, as the character progresses and starts pissing off the Yak and/or megacorps he's going to have to develop some clever techniques fast, or find some other like-minded "heroes" (read: Shadowrunners) to work with. Once he starts operating at that level, its going to take more than what the thugs have in their pockets to pay the bills, so he might start taking jobs on the side under another mask. The refusal to kill aside, I imagine that a lot of Runners get their start this way, trying to make a difference for people who matter to them that society won't help out.
But the life, it gets under your skin. There's the thrills, the (relatively) high living, the edge. Next thing you know, you're pulling down jobs to get the next cool piece of cyberware. Can't fight crime on Thursday, that's Inferno night. Might be some work to be had there. Maybe help out the Yakuza just this one time. The money's too good to turn down. Should I go to my sister's wedding or take this really lucrative run on Evo?
Which, honestly, is the stuff good drama is made of.
-
I tossed him a PM about it, to make sure he swings by and checks out the thread.
Not much to say at the moment, but here's a link to The Good Fight (http://azziewatch.patrickgoodman.org/documents/TSS-thegoodfight.zip). Good enough article when I wrote it, I suppose, but looking back I'm not sure if I went far enough.
-
Bull, you totally should. I made Deadpool and Cable I have them floating around somewhere. I might throw them up here one day to see what people think.
I seem to remember a fat Japanese guy who ran around as a superhero in Shadowrun. Who at one point gets in over his head and needs help. Was that in any book or did I just see that on the web?
-
Some sample Heroes for street level ShadowRunning That cross my mind
Luke Cage & Ironfist
Inhumans (Blackbolt, Medusa, Karnak, Gorgon et al)
Ghost Rider
Nova
Doc Strange (not quite street level but doable)
Ok off the top those are my ideas.
-
The Inhumans and Doctor Strange are about as far from street level as you can get. For Iron Fist and Power Man it really just depends on where you are in their story arc (early on they could be pretty replicable, but much like Daredevil and Batman they get better under later writers, Danny especially), but Black Bolt, Karnak, Doc Strange, etc? Yikes. Those guys are about as "street" as Wonder Woman.
-
The only problem with anyone going off on the heroic, save the citizen, superhero is that anyone he really cheeses off is quite capable of demolishing him. That bit about not killing will simply get him killed. There aren't any real bricks running around in SR, aside from huge anthroform drones, so the damage output of any even slightly organized group will put the would-be hero down.
Not to mention the (relative) ease of following someone around with a watcher spirit and then having that spirit report back to his master so a strike team can take him out, or use a cloud of RFID tags to follow the guy and do the same thing, and anyone who becomes a serious threat to crime (organized or not) is writing their own death warrant.
Not that it can't be done, for a while at least, but the life expectancy of that individual will be really, really short.
I dug around in my disks and found one of the drafts of my original article. This is pretty much the take I had, except the RFID tags (those were still extremely rare when I wrote it). In fact, the first "out and out" superhero, he was a psychiatric patient who slipped his leash, was beaten to death by a gang in the barrens shortly after he appeared on the scene.
My take was the "real" superheroes were mostly headcases. People who had the time and drive (and lack of reason) to dedicate to becoming extremely skilled at their chosen style. They were dangerous and unstable, but extremely skilled and oft times had the money or training to be extremely effective.
The "sane" people were the "posers." They were closer to what we really have today. A smattering of people, some mental illnesses, but mostly people who had flat out enough and where "helping' the police clean up the streets. They were nowhere near as individually skilled or effective as the "real" thing, but were sane enough to know it and band together in what amounted to poser gangs for mutual assistance and defense and ended up being more effective through strength in numbers.
-
I tossed him a PM about it, to make sure he swings by and checks out the thread.
Not much to say at the moment, but here's a link to The Good Fight (http://azziewatch.patrickgoodman.org/documents/TSS-thegoodfight.zip). Good enough article when I wrote it, I suppose, but looking back I'm not sure if I went far enough.
A number of interesting ideas in there. I took a different approach, instead incorporating "Superheroes" into the standard game, working to explain their psychology and motivations and modus operandi for doing it in the regular game world. Mind you, at that time the gamers I was playing with were sparking a lot of good ideas (for instance, using the smartlink system for things other than firing a gun, "mundane" magic items like mana-active bacteria powered cigarette lighters and national/international social societies).
-
The Inhumans and Doctor Strange are about as far from street level as you can get. For Iron Fist and Power Man it really just depends on where you are in their story arc (early on they could be pretty replicable, but much like Daredevil and Batman they get better under later writers, Danny especially), but Black Bolt, Karnak, Doc Strange, etc? Yikes. Those guys are about as "street" as Wonder Woman.
Hey. Greg Rucka had Wonder Woman running around playing spy for the U.S. government.
Karnak is why I wish Kinesics wasn't gimped by the rules because he's pretty much what you get if Kinesics and Combat Sense stack, especially if you also get Centering (Small Unit Tactics). I had a couple of PCs with that metamagic and they were disgusting.
Aside from Black Bolt, a lot of Inhumans are actually doable in SR as changelings, etc.
Dr. Strange is doable now that he's not Sorceror Supreme. The Strange mini by Mark Waid and Emma Rios is a good example. But he'd be fun for the basis of a high concept magical/metaplanar adventure, too.
The Daredevil-based Shadowland (hehehe) event is a possible influence based on what I've heard since it incorporates pretty much every New York street-level hero.
But to bring this around to high concept, you can take the Punisher and turn him into Frankenstein and have him battle cyber-samurai led by a 100-year old steampunk cyborg as Frank defends an underground community of monsters before taking the battle to the enemy by riding a dragon armed with a gatling gun as he battles zombie Nazis and nearly gets sucked into Limbo through a machine that opens a gateway to basically one of Marvel's hells. FrankenCastle was fucking amazing, and anyone who isn't intrigued by the preceding description, well... I don't think we can be friends.
But I really wasn't talking about superheroes in SR. Though you could make a case that maybe some of the stuff we did was superheroics and didn't even realize it. When one of Critias' adepts and some other PCs fought a bunch of Yak/MCT slavers who had taken a whole Puyallup building hostage, it was just another day of killing Yaks and slavers on Shadowland (when I first created that location, it was used for an FBI agent hunting down and straight up murdering some Yak cybergoons like he was Frank Castle). But that was some straight-up Batman and the Outsiders-type stuff Critias ran. Or maybe Heroes for Hire.
Maybe it just seems like I'm seeing a complaint that doesn't exist anymore (or on this board, anyway). Or I'm so used to having run games with Critias who is super-street level action that I got the idea that people don't think or are afraid (and I'm not saying Critias is either. He's just really good at focusing on the street-level, DIY, low-power stuff when he GMs) of running games that involve high-grade initiates, PCs with power armor, personal drone-jets, and drone ninjas fighting cyberzombies, God-chipped SF commandos, insect spirits, modified SCIRE Constructs, AIs and and toxic spirits. Or battling waves of shedim and a powerful mage who's really good at Divination leading an Awakened army. Or having a decker travel across America restoring a hard drive into a Rating 12 knowsoft. Or maybe time has made me realize some of my games were fucking insane.
-
Karnak is why I wish Kinesics wasn't gimped by the rules because he's pretty much what you get if Kinesics and Combat Sense stack, especially if you also get Centering (Small Unit Tactics). I had a couple of PCs with that metamagic and they were disgusting.
Yeah, Kinesics is gimped in the new version but Emotitoys aren't. How's that a good thing? The social game is anemic enough as it is.
-
Wait, what? Doc Strange isn't the Sorceror Supreme anymore? Man, have I been out of touch for, like, ever.
Indirectly, Crimsondude, what I'm hearing you say is I didn't go far enough with The Good Fight. :) Maybe someday in my copious unstructured free time, I'll be able to revisit that and really go to town.
Maybe.
I need to fall back in love with SR again first, though, and at the moment, that's not too high on the list...which is kinda sad.
-
Patrick: Yeah, Doc lost his title a couple years ago. During the World War Hulk storyline, Doc STrange apparently broke a rule and summoned up some big nasty demon to fight a crazed Hulk who'd taken over New York. This led to him having to find a new Sorcerer Supreme to take over the title, and he went around talking to a bunch of the heavy Magic Hitters in the Marvel U. Eventually, he found his successor... Doctor Voodoo.
Bull
-
There's reasons I stopped reading comic books. The list starts at Identity Crisis and Marvel Illuminati and keeps growing every year.
-
There are some diamonds out there...but lots and lots of rough, too. I can't blame ya.
-
I quit following "cape" comics. Instead I buy a few series every time a compendium comes out. DMZ (great feral city), Ex Machina, Walking Dead and a couple of others. Every time I try for a regular series I get disappointed.
-
Scalped has yet to disappoint me, for non-superhero titles, and Walking Dead continues to shock/amaze/terrify/prepare me for the Zombpocalypse.
I feel too much like an abuse victim crawling back into a relationship, with superhero comics. Every time I start to like something and start to collect, I get hurt. Then something catches my eye, I go crawling back, and then the relationship turns to crap again just when I start to love. I still own a couple hundred trade paperbacks -- and that's after selling or giving away a bunch prior to the move -- but I tend to have a big chunk of a title, then it drops off completely when I got pissed about it. Or, in one instance, when it got canceled (damn them for making Immortal Iron Fist so good, early on, and then just letting it wither and die).
The only superhero title I still buy without at least sampling a friend's copy is Secret Six. I'm a tremendous Catman fanboy -- I mean, I was Catman at Dragon*Con a few years ago -- and I love what Gail Simone and crew have done with the character since Villains United. It's the only Marvel/DC gig I'll buy sight unseen.
I'm timidly trying a relationship with the recent Captain America run again (from Winter Soldier on), ran with it up past Civil War and the Death of Captain America, liked it and kept going while Bucky put on the new outfit, etc, etc...but I let it stall out for all the recent crossover junk again. I'm just scared I'll get my heart broken again.
-
I can deal with self contained cape arcs. Seven Soldiers of. . .whatever. . .the one with Zatanna, was good. Or Justice, Kingdom Come, about half the Elseworlds or any Warren Ellis limited series. Marvel's Frontline mini-series to go with each big event is always great. I really like the perspective of the guys on the street in a world of dueling demigods. There was a great Punisher arc in Civil War about a mobster who had it in for capes and wound up becoming one by the time it was over. Most Green Lantern Corps stories are more or less self contained, but don't get me started on the Darkest Night, Brightest Day, rainbow alliance crap. Continuity is cool, after a fashion, when you read month to month and follow the changes. Decade to decade, though, writers come and go. They all try to leave their mark. They all try to retcon things they don't like. It winds up a mess.
I'd just as soon an episodic format where Peter Parker is always a senior in college, he's always just about to ask MJ to marry him etc. Its better than him getting married, then everyone forgetting he was married, then him not really being Peter Parker, then going public and having a techno-suit, then going back underground etc etc. Same thing with Clark Kent. The stories everyone remembers from the big name capes are timeless. They stand up to modernizing, they're about situations real people can relate to. Why trash that?
-
Sorry guys, I am a hero at heart. We got a Wet job and personnally I can't see a character of mine doing it, much less assisting. I can kill raging hordes of humanoids all day. but taking a job to wack some scientist who may be making something really bad (OK him I can stop!) or creating a cure for cancer that company B doesn't want to hit the market before thiers does. Just ain't MY style.
I want our group to be misfit heroes not just another group of Runners out to make a buck.
-
@Patrick
Perhaps. I never got a chance to run a solo campaign for a character who can be described as Batman with Superman's powers. In Shadowrun. I think what matters is scalability, and being clever at creating challenges for powerful characters and ideas. That's why I love Grant Morrison. He told one of the best Superman stories ever and still treated him like he was, you know, Superman. I can't recall, but I think Final Crisis was coming out as we were wrapping up There's Nothing Free and I would be lying if I didn't think that hasn't affected my writing. If not then, certainly now.
-
Hehe.
Fun fact. We were stating up Marvel characters in SR2. So this isn't really just an SR4 thing. I think it's just that since SR4 has come out, the nature of internet fandom has changed.
We used to be a group of fans who got together and celebrated the fact that we were all fans. Sure, there were arguments, but they rarely got all that heated. At the end of the day, we were all there because we loved the product, and we knew it.
These days? Internet fandom tends to be mean and spiteful. The vocal fans are perpetually disgruntled because things aren't done how they think they should be, no one else is allowed to have an opinion that varies from their own, and in general, they just all seem to enjoy being miserable and making others feel that way.
Slight tangent there, I know, but... The point is, 15 years ago, I wrote up rules for playing Spider-Man. I created rules for web shooters, someone else had created a custom Gecko Crawl adept power. And it was a fun time. Most of the folks on the old RN mailing list said "Hey, cool. I'd never use taht in my game, but good job." and that was that.
Other people created Wolverine (Really easy) and other superheroes. At one point, someone had rules for Caps Shield, throwing it, catching it, etc. The really crazy powerful characters tended to get left out, so no Superman or anything, but a lot of the low and mid-level heroes? They were done at one point or another. And no one said the game sucked because you could do that. No one said that we sucked fo thinking that was an interesting excercise in rules and character design.
Nowadays? If we started a thread about that, it would be lucky to get 20 posts in before someone starting bitching. Because apparently anyone having fun in a way that differs from theirs totally ruins the game for them. ;/
Wankers.
Hrmmm... You know... Maybe I'll work up a team of Marvel Hero based runners to use as an opposing Shadowrun team for Missions or something. :)
Bull
People have become very mean on the internet, based on the fact that they don't have to face the person theyr'e degrading. It's rediculous, and keeps me away from any form of chat generally. This forum is the only one I go on, and there are so many cool people here. I think it's awesome. I'm not very technically savvy, so sometimes I come off stupid, and peopl who are super-chatters attack with a fury. Perhaps It's all their pent up aggression because they can't talk that way in real life. Or maybe they get bullied. Idk. But as far as Bull is saying, RPGs are supposed to be FUN. Why can't you do whatever the hell you want in a game? I personally don't go beyond what I can reason. But how different is a tallented runner than Batman?
-
You can do whatever you want, but there are other people at the table. What if they don't want superheroes in their high tech/low life game?
If you want to do the whole superhero thing, that's fine. It won't work for everyone, and it isn't exactly canon for SR (nor, as I pointed out, good for the character's health).
-
All this reminds me of a d20 Modern game I was in a few years back. Basically, the GM had written it up that the "dark forces" were leaking into our world and our characters were normal people that had to suddenly deal with the extraordinary (undead mostly, but it wasn't a zombie game).
I came into the game late, but I had built a great concept: I was a young Bruce Wayne that was still going about in his training. Now, using just the rules in the d20 Modern book, I had plotted out the course of what was needed to get him to the modern-Batman level -- and I needed 90 levels for it. ;)
Still, we were playing around level 10 and it was fun when the Succubus tried to "convince" me to give up my teammates. And, true to form, good ol' Bruce rolled natural 20s on all the will saves needed. ;D
-
People have become very mean on the internet, based on the fact that they don't have to face the person theyr'e degrading. It's rediculous, and keeps me away from any form of chat generally. This forum is the only one I go on, and there are so many cool people here. I think it's awesome. I'm not very technically savvy, so sometimes I come off stupid, and peopl who are super-chatters attack with a fury. Perhaps It's all their pent up aggression because they can't talk that way in real life. Or maybe they get bullied. Idk. But as far as Bull is saying, RPGs are supposed to be FUN. Why can't you do whatever the hell you want in a game? I personally don't go beyond what I can reason. But how different is a tallented runner than Batman?
Well, like I said, I was that guy Bull mentioned. But things change. People change. I stopped playing SR for a couple of years because I viscerally hated what it had become. And yet here I am stating in the OP "SR is Awesome Town, Population: You." The 2005 me would've thought I had a stroke.
Anyway, yeah. I agree with you. If it's not fun, it's not worth doing. I just watched the new trailer for Sucker Punch and thought "Oh, I can top that." I actually have a metaplanar adventure idea that makes that trailer and Harlequin's Back look pretty tame. Argh... I wish I could say more.
You can do whatever you want, but there are other people at the table. What if they don't want superheroes in their high tech/low life game?
If you want to do the whole superhero thing, that's fine. It won't work for everyone, and it isn't exactly canon for SR (nor, as I pointed out, good for the character's health).
You had me until here.
I never intended for some of my campaigns to look more like Mutants & Masterminds than CP2020, but I don't regret it. The same way superhero books can be more than just guys in tights punching each other (and ironically, best exemplified in the all-ages books maligned by overgrown 13-year olds as "kid books") the whole point of the OP was that SR allows for some amazing, batshit insane things to happen while you're still running a fun, interesting, productive story. It doesn't take away the drama and character development/movements that occur in a campaign just because at one point the PC is dodging a combat drone while they are flying through downtown Seattle.
But anyway, given the sheer number of storylines and plothooks offered in the books, the only thing about superheroes SR hasn't flat-out offered PCs a chance to do is put on brightly-colored spandex as part of the job spec.
No, wait. They can do that in that urban brawl adventure.
PA sums up my excess verbosity yet again. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/10/13/) (And the news post that goes with it expands on that with more ... words...)
-
Heck they can wear it in a regular adventure too! Even more so becuase it covers up their true identity! Why do you think most runners wear trench coats and crap like that? So long as teh authorities never get a tab on their real face a Runner could go around in a diaper and a ski mask. They'd look silly doing it but the points the same. ;)
-
Four words: Form Fitting Body Armor
-
Frank Miller said it best, I think, and it's a quote I use all the time, both in and out of game: "There ain't all that much difference between a long trenchcoat and a cape, anyway."
-
Four words: Form Fitting Body Armor
Learn them. Live them. Love them.
-
Looking back over this thread, I'm seriously considering finding the archive of some of my SR3 NPCs, like Aries and Thunder, and posting them. This is the kind of thing they were made for, though my campaign was a little less "high concept" than some of the stuff that's actually come down the pike. Heck, a privately-run "superhero" team where one of the operatives is a cyberzombie (for all intents and purposes), another is a street mage who believes she died and came back to life, yet another is a deep-cover intelligence agent pretending he got court-martialed to fit into the shadows, and one is a dwarf mage still in love with his vampire ex-wife...that's wacky enough without resorting to some of the "high concept" inherent to SR.
I want to run it again, but I don't really want to use SR4 to do it.
-
I'd still like to know why, as they grow older, comic book writers get crazier and crazier... (looking at you, Miller and Moore, with a glance at Stan)
-
Stan was always crazy!
Thats why heroes like the Beast always got the hot bikini clad babes! Stan was quoted as saying something like, 'the Marvel universe is populated by some of the kinkiest women ever known.'
Pat your group sounds like Out present team, Functionally disfunctional! I love the sould of their personalities!
Form Fitting Body Armor is not 'Yellow Spandex' ;)
-
Pat your group sounds like Out present team, Functionally disfunctional! I love the sould of their personalities!
Patrick, please. I know it's shorter, but it's also something reserved for family and REALLY close friends.
Form Fitting Body Armor is not 'Yellow Spandex' ;)
But it CAN be. :)
-
Jack Kirby was the real visionary of the Stan & Jack team.
-
You can do whatever you want, but there are other people at the table. What if they don't want superheroes in their high tech/low life game?
If you want to do the whole superhero thing, that's fine. It won't work for everyone, and it isn't exactly canon for SR (nor, as I pointed out, good for the character's health).
Yes. If the others don't agree on it, let it go.
-
I'd still like to know why, as they grow older, comic book writers get crazier and crazier... (looking at you, Miller and Moore, with a glance at Stan)
I don't know. Grant Morrison seems to have toned down a bit, or at least doesn't place his ideas as squarely in the 8th Dimension anymore. Warren Ellis. . .he's always nuts.
-
I'd still like to know why, as they grow older, comic book writers get crazier and crazier... (looking at you, Miller and Moore, with a glance at Stan)
Partially, it's that everyone gets crazier as they get older.
Also, I think it's got to do with the nature of the publishing/media business. You can get away with being crazy, once you're established. Heck, even outside of publishing, just look at a tenured professor versus an adjunct staff member! Once you've been in the business -- any business -- for a while, and put down some roots, and become a "name" in your field, you don't have to hold back any more. Moderation is for folks who are worried about repercussions.
-
A lesson I was well-advised of recently IRL.
-
Yeah... Grant's recent turn with Batman leaves me thinking he's leaving the book in a straitjacket. Batman, INC.??? Really?
-
Batman, INC.??? Really?
LA LA LA LA LA LA LA, can't hear you! LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!
-
Batman, INC.??? Really?
LA LA LA LA LA LA LA, can't hear you! LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!
;D
-
See, compared to The Invisibles or Filth he's the picture of sanity now. Totally screwing up the plotline of favorite characters is a time honored tradition of new writers on big titles.
-
I think quite a bit of the recent shenanigans has to do with the nature of the short-term contracting that's become all the rage in comics lately. Claremont wrote for the X-Men for 17 years. When you look at the things that team did from 1975 to 1991, there's a general cohesion to the overall plot, there's a surprising amount of consistency to the characters, there's a genuine feeling of teamwork, of caring for the characters, of logic and reason to the broad story arc. When something happened to the X-Men, you knew that he'd planned it, maybe even planted clues earlier, and that the follow-up would make that ______ (whatever event) matter, in later issues.
You don't get that any more.
We're lucky, as readers, if someone's on board our favorite title for six issues, nowadays. It takes 'em an issue or two to get running (and maybe change around the roster, while they're at it!), we get two or three issues of reasonable storytelling with consistent character personalities and power levels, and then in the last issue or two every single one of these jackwagons has to make a splash (or, worse yet, he does it on his way into the title, five months earlier), in order to make headlines and get the comic reported in mainstream media outlets about Captain America getting shot, Spidey going public with his identity, or Superman getting a haircut, or Batman dying, or Wonder Woman's swanky new jacket, or someone being gay all along, or whatever.
It'd be like if every single new freelancer for Shadowrun decided they just had to out Fastjack as an Immortal Elf Vampire shaman of Cthulu, let us know that Dunkie took over Lofwyr's body at the moment of his death all those years ago, that JR Ewing changed his name to Damien Knight in the 1980's and has been drinking the blood of virgins to stay alive, and that uh oh, look out, all of Shadowrun canon so far has actually been a detailed holodeck simulation, a trick played on every PC out there, and we've all been secretly riding around on the USS Enterprise this whole time...all because every freelancer wanted to be famous, wanted his book to be popular (and it's easier to be controversial than good), and wanted to "leave his mark" on the title before moving on to other projects.
I miss continuity in my comics. I miss the same guy helming the ship for years and years, telling a good story and just letting the results speak for themselves.
-
Everything Critias said +1000.
It's really ironic too, because they have created the new positions of Chief Creative Officer (Geoff Johns, DC; Joe Quesada, Marvel) to monitor continuity. So, they put two guys in charge of the biggest continuity messes (Johns brought back Hal Jordan and Barry Allen and was responsible for Infinite Crisis; Quesada... well, what didn't he do?) to keep everyone on track.
-
Its also an accidental side-effect of the industry. A certain "cutting edge" company will print absolutely anything author X pitches them. It makes sense because author X wrote their best selling title ever. Anything with his name on it will sell great. Its money in the bank. He gets to be as cray as he wants because it will always sell. Same thing in more mainstream titles, big authors sell copies, so they have a lot of leeway for frakking up the storyline. Someone new to the industry has to play it more conservative until his name sells copies on its own.
When a new author pitches a concept, its immediately compared to author X's One Big Title. If it looks like it would appeal to the same people who read One Big Title, its given a green light. If it sells, it stays. So for the last 15-20 years, the titles they heavily promote are reminiscent of One Big Title. When those succeed it further reinforces the type of titles that get a greenlight. So to cute your teeth with this company, you have to start by writing something like One Big Title. Once that's under your belt and you have name recognition you can pitch Your Own Cray Big Title.
-
Patrick, please. I know it's shorter, but it's also something reserved for family and REALLY close friends.
Patrick it is then. ;)
-
I should note, Critias, one thing in your comments... Captain America getting shot. Ed Brubaker has been on Cap for since the current series launched in 2004, and he'd been on the title for two years when he shot Cap. He's publicly stated that he had something like this planned all along, and tying it into Civil War just moved his timetable up a little bit, and gave it a little more punch at the same time. He also penned Cap Reborn, is still writing Captain America (Now starring Bucky), and is writing two other series that feature Steve Rogers (Super SOldier and Secret Avengers). So, at least in one corner of the Marvel U, there's a bit of consistency.
You have a very valid point about the others though. I'd point out that Spidey was being mainly written by JM Strazynski and had been for several years when he revealed his identity, but that was, I suspect, editor fiat. JMS has commented about editorial mucking around in his stories a few times.
This is definitely a complaint I agree with though with comics. I loath both the current "Decompressed storytelling" that became all the rage (It's reigned back a bit since the first half of the decade thankfully, but seriously, remember the days when comics could fit an entire storyline into 1 or two comics? Now it takes 4 to 6 issues to tell that same story) as well as the "write 6 issues and go work on something else" thing.
I really appreciated the Brand New Day stuff they did with SPidey for one reason: Having a solid, hands on editor (Steve Wacker) coordinating the various teams that were doing the 3 Times a Month publishing schedule really did help give the title some stability and cohesiveness for the two years (and 36+ issues).
Which leads me to my other big problem at Marvel (and DC)... Editors that don't fraggin' edit. One of the biggest complaints about Civil War was inconsistency between the various titles... The exact same scene would play out in multiple comics, and it would be a little bit different in each one (if we're lucky, a couple times it was a good deal different). Or we'd see two different-but-similar events take place in different comics, but it would play out very differently each time. (I think Steve and Tony met to talk and try and make peace three different times in different comics, and each one was completely different and ignored the other ones). This all gets laid on the feet of Tom Brevoort (IIRC), who pretty much admitted this when called out about it in an interview, saying that he was "Giving the writers each their freedom to tell the stories in their own way". Which basically means he wasn't doing one of his jobs, which is to coordinate and edit the comics for consistency!
Sorry, major pet peeve of mine there...
Anyway.. Yeah. I'm still a huge comic fan, but... Not a fan of the crazy, or lazy editing, lazy writing, or any of that.
Bull
-
One problem is the mindset of the SR world, that's been pretty much hardwired into it from day one. The all-but 'end justifies the means, whatever makes us a stack of cred and gets us through the run' viewpoint. Admittedly it holds with runners being at the 'bottom' of society, but personally I like my characters to be more high-minded. When the world got Evo and Horizon, it wasn't 'cool, there are actually some okay people in the world' - it was 'no way, they are hiding the monsters, we'll keep digging until we find them.' Yeah, I know, backstory still unfolding.
I had warm fuzzies for the Draco Foundation for a long while (as player, cos i never got to run for them as any character) - then I realised they had to be as ruthless and underhanded as anybody to survive. Hell, there could be a campaign out there somewhere in which the Azzies are Bright and Shining Heroes. (Any Mexican players on the forum?)
Just look at the differences between two of the Names - Kane and Argent. Sure, they MIGHT work together - once. They seem more likely to work at cross-purposes, just going on how they've been written.
Hmm, having trouble putting thoughts into words . . .
-
No, I get you. Shadowrun catches the 'punk' aspect of cyberpunk in its default assumption that the characters come from an exploited underclass. Its the cold, impersonal, money makes the world go 'round type of world that gave punk music its start. What it doesn't necessarily have, unless the players bring it, is that punk ethos of fighting that system even when you're at the bottom. Sure, most every run hurts some corp but it helps another. The runners themselves have become just another commodity in a commoditized world and by and large they seem to be OK with that.
Don't forget, Evo and Horizon have to play hardball just like the Draco foundation. Big groups of any sort just don't have room to care much about the individual. Individuals are usually too caught up in their day to day survival to look at what they can do to change the big picture. Any system where the cops deliberately leave an entire district as a breeding ground for crime so that they can keep their contract prices high is probably not a good one. Obviously, Shadowrunners can use this to their advantage. When asked if it seem morallys repugnant, though, they're likely to say the same thing as bankers who made $40 million personally while their banks were being bailed out.
"That's the system. If you have a problem with it don't blame me, change the system."
-
@Longshot:
The best way to get the players up on the high horse and act noble? Take money out the equation. Seriously, if you want them to start runs that are trying to change the world, make it so they no longer need to rely on a paycheck (the Leverage (http://www.tnt.tv/series/leverage/) route).
-
That may be why I settled on an Occult Investigator as my SR4 character - kind of straddles the line. Besides, can you imagine Jim Rockford or Magnum PI or even MacGyver with magic? ;D
The concept that the individual matters less than the group also plays a part. Funnily enough, the corps play this up more than governments.
I also like a quote from Angel: "We live as though the world was as it should be, to show it what it can be."
I'm kind of surprised that no one leapt to Kane's defence though ::)
-
Kane doesn't need anyone to defend him, his rep says it all. ;)
Honestly, if Argent is Hulk Hogan, Kane's "Rowdy" Roddy Piper.
-
Leaving the Kane bagging alone now . . .
The SR3 Companion had a few ideas about alternate campaign premises:
a DocWagon High Threat Response team;
some kind of media outfit;
a SpecWar game;
a cops game;
some vague all-magic game.
SOTA64 presented the idea of an espionage-themed campaign. With organisations like the Atlantean Foundation and DIMR, arcano-archaeology is possible.
I guess my point is, an SR campaign doesn't have to be about grinding the PCs faces into the dark gritty parts and racking up body counts - that's what Cyberpunk is for.
-
As FastJack said, Kane doesn't need anyone to defend him, his story does it for him. He started off in the 50s as a CAS pilot, whose girlfriend gets captured by the Azzies, he goes buckwild on them until she is freed. Then he realizes the lifestyle he was leading was fun and profitable and becomes a full time pirate. He commits so much damage he's on 20ish nations most wanted lists. He challenges Gingerbread Man another pirate who has a TV show, nothing comes out of that IIRC. At some point Kane gets his own show and he's still active. Honestly how do you top that?
-
The thing with Gingerbread Man was that Kane was on his way to the fight, found a ship spoiling to be raided and did that instead.
What I'd like to know is if they are going to talk more about how Gingy's currently lost in the Bermuda Triangle...
-
That may be why I settled on an Occult Investigator as my SR4 character - kind of straddles the line. Besides, can you imagine Jim Rockford or Magnum PI or even MacGyver with magic? ;D
The concept that the individual matters less than the group also plays a part. Funnily enough, the corps play this up more than governments.
I also like a quote from Angel: "We live as though the world was as it should be, to show it what it can be."
I'm kind of surprised that no one leapt to Kane's defence though ::)
I really like the investigator concept, too. My 2nd SR4A character was based on a combination of that archetype, Dresden (see my avatar) from Dresden Files, and me. One of these days, I'll post him up for feedback.
-
I guess my point is, an SR campaign doesn't have to be about grinding the PCs faces into the dark gritty parts and racking up body counts - that's what Cyberpunk is for.
Funny you say that since my whole post about characters with higher aspirations than a paycheck was more or less paraphrased from Cyberpunk. At the end of that day, though, the players have a lot of room to decide what their characters care about. The more fully they're fleshed out, the more reasons they will have to do things besides pay the rent.
-
Yeah Our Sniper (Dust) uses gel rounds mostly in on a mission. Primarily because unconcious gurads and executives draw a lesser punishment than dead ones. ;D
-
Yeah Our Sniper (Dust) uses gel rounds mostly in on a mission. Primarily because unconcious gurads and executives draw a lesser punishment than dead ones. ;D
Funny, as a merc, I usually get paid more for the opposite. ;)
-
Yeah Our Sniper (Dust) uses gel rounds mostly in on a mission. Primarily because unconcious gurads and executives draw a lesser punishment than dead ones. ;D
Wouldn't calibre and muzzle velocity for sniper rifle pretty much guarantee a kill?
-
Only if it were real life.
-
Yeah Our Sniper (Dust) uses gel rounds mostly in on a mission. Primarily because unconcious gurads and executives draw a lesser punishment than dead ones. ;D
Wouldn't calibre and muzzle velocity for sniper rifle pretty much guarantee a kill?
Comes rather close in game but the rules (and dusts dice) make it not as easy a kill as you'd think.
-
Which leads me to my other big problem at Marvel (and DC)... Editors that don't fraggin' edit. One of the biggest complaints about Civil War was inconsistency between the various titles...
They made some pretty serious changes after CW, but especially was that they got everyone who was going to work on an event tie-in access to everyone else's scripts--which is why Siege was so consistent that it was pointless because of all of the redundant redundancy of seeing the same stuff said/done with slight variations in angle and style by different artists.
SOTA64 presented the idea of an espionage-themed campaign. With organisations like the Atlantean Foundation and DIMR, arcano-archaeology is possible.
*Scoff*
I like to think there's a reason Games of State is basically being rewritten six years after its release as compared to Shadowbeat's almost-20 years. GoS was kind of not really okay at being a primer for an alternative campaign like the ones presented in the back of the SRComps. I didn't write an 8-page PDF titled "Espionage and the Shadows" (https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B9Ru8Fx2hE7NOTg1OTFhN2QtZDJmMS00MGMzLWI1NzgtNGY3ZTg3OWQyNmU1&hl=en&authkey=CMae08YB&pli=1) for my fucking health. It was because where it matters--how espionage affects runners and can be integrated into existing campaigns--was utterly nonexistent. Not to mention that it reads like an IRAB (I Read A Book) high school report on intelligence (Actually, that's not true because I literally did write a high school paper on 1986 as the Year of the Spy and the most prominent American traitors who got busted [or almost did in one case] that year). Speaking of which, I learned about a month ago that my boss actually knew Ed Howard when he defected and that learning that Howard dodged the CIA and FBI in Santa Fe and managed to disappear into the aether was one of the more surreal moments in his own rather interesting and storied life.
Point being, and how this ties into the OP is this: As I said to another writer on SG, if we do our job right you will be able to run any spy campaign you like from A to Z (with A being a very notable High Concept franchise and Z being another very distinct one).
But really almost all of SR is already espionage. Shadowruns are themselves inherently acts of covert espionage of some undefined sort. If you can't incorporate concept that is the title of the game then you're doing it wrong. GoS did it wrong, and by God I intend to see that SG will not.
Also, I've been saying that Dunk and the DR were just as evil, even if their intentions were good, since 1996.
-
Which leads me to my other big problem at Marvel (and DC)... Editors that don't fraggin' edit. One of the biggest complaints about Civil War was inconsistency between the various titles...
They made some pretty serious changes after CW, but especially was that they got everyone who was going to work on an event tie-in access to everyone else's scripts--which is why Siege was so consistent that it was pointless because of all of the redundant redundancy of seeing the same stuff said/done with slight variations in angle and style by different artists.
SOTA64 presented the idea of an espionage-themed campaign. With organisations like the Atlantean Foundation and DIMR, arcano-archaeology is possible.
*Scoff*
I like to think there's a reason Games of State is basically being rewritten six years after its release as compared to Shadowbeat's almost-20 years. GoS was kind of not really okay at being a primer for an alternative campaign like the ones presented in the back of the SRComps. I didn't write an 8-page PDF titled "Espionage and the Shadows" (https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B9Ru8Fx2hE7NOTg1OTFhN2QtZDJmMS00MGMzLWI1NzgtNGY3ZTg3OWQyNmU1&hl=en&authkey=CMae08YB&pli=1) for my fucking health. It was because where it matters--how espionage affects runners and can be integrated into existing campaigns--was utterly nonexistent. Not to mention that it reads like an IRAB (I Read A Book) high school report on intelligence (Actually, that's not true because I literally did write a high school paper on 1986 as the Year of the Spy and the most prominent American traitors who got busted [or almost did in one case] that year). Speaking of which, I learned about a month ago that my boss actually knew Ed Howard when he defected and that learning that Howard dodged the CIA and FBI in Santa Fe and managed to disappear into the aether was one of the more surreal moments in his own rather interesting and storied life.
Point being, and how this ties into the OP is this: As I said to another writer on SG, if we do our job right you will be able to run any spy campaign you like from A to Z (with A being a very notable High Concept franchise and Z being another very distinct one).
But really almost all of SR is already espionage. Shadowruns are themselves inherently acts of covert espionage of some undefined sort. If you can't incorporate concept that is the title of the game then you're doing it wrong. GoS did it wrong, and by God I intend to see that SG will not.
Also, I've been saying that Dunk and the DR were just as evil, even if their intentions were good, since 1996.
yeah, well, the stuff in SOTA64 wasn't much more than an appetiser. Sort of like letting [us] know what other options and possibillties exist.
Your writing is great stuff. Agree about most of SR being intell/covert ops to one extent or another.
Not sure I agree re Dunk etc - but that's okay. There's room for both our viewpoints.
-
Well, perhaps I am biased. I still have the Encyclopedia of Espionage sitting in a pile in my kitchen and a folder full of declassified manuals and documents from the National Security Archive as reference for campaigns I was running when SOTA64 came out, and so a lot of the stuff wasn't new to me. I never really liked Szeto's writing (apart from things like the Atomic Kiva in SoNA being based on completely made-up nuke tests) because it reads like a textbook. I will never understand the line in his CAS chapter about why his narrator didn't get why people keep asking about canon militaries (Uh, gee. For character backgrounds? Nah...). I'm more interested in things like the fact that four of the five women CIA officers who immediately come to mind were mothers, and the one who wasn't was the one who was in the least amount of danger (One was pregnant on ops in the Middle East. Another was the team leader of the CIA team killed in a suicide bombing in Khost, Afghanistan).
There are three quotes I keep in mind as I write SG:
"Espionage is always political"—Zviad Baakovi (as written by Greg Rucka and Eric Trautmann), Checkmate v2 #23. DC Comics (2008).
"You see, everyone’s been treating this like it’s a game of chess. But you only play honourable games if you don’t care about the pieces. If lives and nations are at stake--one cheats."—Pete Wisdom (written by Paul Cornell), Captain Britain and MI13 #15 (Marvel Comics. 2009).
"Look, killing isn't about weapons... It's about the humans who use them."—Victor Bout, New York Times Magazine, August 17, 2003.
Now, I'm not trying to dog on Szeto or anyone. What his writing may lack in elegance, at the very least makes up for in useful detail. But I have a different perspective and writing style when it comes to Shadowrun, and that's how I approach things. Because the policy on Shadowland was that canon had to be adhered to to make sure everyone was on the same page even when it became clear that we didn't need to worry about new people trying to jump in, there was no end of bitching about some of the canon aspects. If you look at the foreword of TNF, there is an outright backhanded compliment to the System Failure writing team. However, that campaign is evidence that the true value of the material is in the gaps that the players are left to fill. Everything that we did except for one scene description was rules legal and canon (none of which, AFAIK, has been retconned or contradicted) because the material hasn't delved into the details of what happened during that time period in SR lore.
I can honestly say that for as much as some plots drove me and others nuts at the time that we were able to do some of our best gaming ever because we still had the leeway and opportunity to build our own adventures from that. That is what I'm hoping to do with my writing, and what I am trying to say is that the books are just the beginning of the adventure--and it took almost 20 years for me to consciously realize that's how I'd been playing. I thought Ghostwalker was kind of stupid; that he appears out of this rift a mile from the White House, scares the shit out of everyone, then disappears only to emerge and pull a Godzilla on Denver. Only instead of destroying it, he becomes its political governor. But can you imagine all the different jobs a runner could pull off while that was going on? Because it was going on? Those are character-defining events. Superheroes and villains have emerged from lesser spectacles.
In the same thread that lead to the creation of this one, someone was talking about how there's nothing for runners to do in Lagos. A third of Feral Cities is about Lagos. That's patently false. Aside from that it's just incomprehensible to me. Now, I made my opinion about SR's Africa pretty clear on my tumblr, but I now look at it as a work in progress rather than something to just bitch about. However, maybe it's just the perspective seems off.
One of the things that I like about this forum and the power of DS is that it provides an opportunity to connect authors and fans. I never really appreciated that until now from the other side. I understand intellectually that not everyone has been following espionage or certain other subjects like I have, and whether one realizes it or not that informs writing styles and can make or break a book. I get frustrated to the point of jackassery (see above) about some stuff because I already know it, or I know the subject better than the author. I think that was the issue with Szeto, where so many of our apparent interests/expertise overlaps a lot of the time it's "Yeah. Yeah. Get to the point." The same is true with Bobby Derie in certain areas. In others I don't get the joke (and his writing seems to be full of little references and jokes about stuff that go over my head). But other people don't, and it's a careful dance to not lose the reader by being too inside baseball on tradecraft, but also keeping a piece on military fresh for, say, the many vets and active military SR players out there.
I think Jay Levine's chapter on Hong Kong in Runner Havens is fantastic because it really paints a picture. And part of that is in the fact that it is self-referential, and really emphasizes that everything is connected by not being afraid to discuss something twice. It has some pretty high concept ideas like the Yama Kings controlling Kowloon, TMs backing up their own memories (which doesn't have rules for it, but it doesn't have rules prohibiting it either), and the Legion of Doom swamp base on Lantau Island. I've never been there, and neither has he, but I'd swear he had been if I didn't know better.
Grant Morrison made a memorable comment at SDCC this year when he discussed how people start losing their ability to accept fiction at face value as they get older. That sometimes you have to accept that characters are just that, and that to a certain extent you have to let it be what it is. I don't pine for the older cyberpunk days I grew up in. I accept that we're living in the dystopia that they feared would come. But I also look at the course of human history and know that life is getting better overall. Topps could kill the game tomorrow and there will still be one guy a hundred years from now who's still running a campaign either set in 2172, 2050, or 4645 just like there are now. For every moment I've forgotten it's a game set in a fictional world when something is wrong or different (and this used to drive me nuts about military and security stuff) I now know that I can take a fistful of those magnetic word tiles and throw them at a fridge, and then pair off words and probably come up with the name of a real DOD special access program. I can then pluck three words from a hat of tradecraft disciplines, agencies and general mission goals and I assure you the result would be a real program. So who the fuck cares if the White Lions were made up for one line in a 15 year-old SR2 book. I bet there's a SAP somewhere with that name.
-
@Crimsondude:
I get the impression that I'd either love or hate playing under your GMing.
-
Well, if you could deal with my being a bit flighty at times, I assume that you'd like it. I collaborate with my players on a lot of things, and the one thing that was great about having a lot of time to spend on a single game is that it gives a lot of opportunity for creative turns and alterations as the game/campaign went on.
That said, my official policy is to try and kill the PCs. However, that never actually happened, but it's come close. And of course that ended up with a new revenge-based run after the PCs recovered.
-
Well, if you could deal with my being a bit flighty at times, I assume that you'd like it. I collaborate with my players on a lot of things, and the one thing that was great about having a lot of time to spend on a single game is that it gives a lot of opportunity for creative turns and alterations as the game/campaign went on.
That said, my official policy is to try and kill the PCs. However, that never actually happened, but it's come close. And of course that ended up with a new revenge-based run after the PCs recovered.
Flighty as in whimsical? That works. Actually I meant in regard to knowledge that you have and players do not, but are trying to operate as per that knowledge anyway. Yeah, I know, you could say that about any game world.
Most of what I know about spook & law tradecraft I've gotten from novels (I like Tom Clancy's take on it all), although I have done some reading about it as non-fiction.
-
Flighty as in I'd stop posting just in my games for up to two weeks at a time. Not because I got stuck. I just didn't want to play GM.
But as far as knowledge goes, yeah I've heard that I can be a pain in the ass about that because I have developed some pretty deep backstories or whatever and my players have hit me up in the OOC sections and asked "WTF are you talking about?" But it's usually not a problem with tradecraft and IRL information being applied. That comes from everything I write about being connected, and what other people see is at best about 10% of my writing output. So I'll refer to something forgetting that it's in my storage bin (the big 60+ gallon ones they sell at Wal-Mart, BTW) handwritten in some notebook.
SL was/is all about collaboration and I'd frequently comment on new or interesting things that would likely find their way into a game. But my players were also pretty clever and know a lot of this stuff as well. Everyone here can probably guess that Critias is a really smart and clever dude. Well, the people I gamed with were all like him. One is literally scary smart. I am by far the dumbest of the dozen or so people I regularly gamed with when it comes to rules. Which is why I make up for it in extensive character studies even though I am still fairly well-versed in the rules. But I wasn't the one who figured out the math of SR3 and 4 dice mechanics and charted the statistical analysis.
But that's a good question. I learned better of it over time, but I still do it on occasion. I know that was a problem when I'd submit fiction to Tisoz's contests on DS that they got pretty arcane. Luckily I've run all my stuff by Critias first since we are working on the same project, and I've toned it way the Hell down. But knowing a lot about RL espionage helps provide a framework for ideas of what to write when I've been working on SG. I used to complain about some writers chasing the past and incorporating modern day zeitgeist into SR that's outdated by publication, and so I strive not to do that. But having the knowledge is ostensibly supposed to help me pick out patterns and ideas that I can apply to the SR world where, for example, Matrix 1.0 was in no way supposed to look anything like the Internet. And that goes back to the whole Grant Morrison comment about accepting fiction as fiction (http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2010/07/sdcc-10-carla-speed-mcneil-grant-morrison-agree-let-fiction-be-fictional/).
That said, I'm sure I'll get slammed when SG comes out for a couple of things that may hem too close to current day events though I am consciously trying not to. It happens. But I'm trying to affect different aspects than just "CIA and FBI hate each other because J. Edgar Hoover wanted to run all American espionage-foreign and domestic."
-
Hi. This thread made me join this forum, so kudos to the original poster.
I like the idea of making Superheroic types in the world of Shadowrun; sure, it's a dark, bleak world of Grey vs Grey morality, but isn't it at the Darkest of Times that there's a Call for Heroes? I could see a small "Superhero Culture" developping in the low-rent neighborhoods by desperate would-be heroes wanting to clean up their neighborhoods. It would start small at first, with a mental case pulling a Don Juan Quichote, but he could spark imitators, and before anyone knows it, there's a growing subculture of "Unionsuit-Wearing Heroes" (to coin the classic term) spreading across the UCAS and CSA.
And that would just get Japan's Cosplayer community to start producing "Kamen Rider" wannabe heroes...
-
Hi. This thread made me join this forum, so kudos to the original poster.
I like the idea of making Superheroic types in the world of Shadowrun; sure, it's a dark, bleak world of Grey vs Grey morality, but isn't it at the Darkest of Times that there's a Call for Heroes? I could see a small "Superhero Culture" developping in the low-rent neighborhoods by desperate would-be heroes wanting to clean up their neighborhoods. It would start small at first, with a mental case pulling a Don Juan Quichote, but he could spark imitators, and before anyone knows it, there's a growing subculture of "Unionsuit-Wearing Heroes" (to coin the classic term) spreading across the UCAS and CSA.
And that would just get Japan's Cosplayer community to start producing "Kamen Rider" wannabe heroes...
You don't really need an "in-game only" reason for it. There are Superheroes in Seattle right now under the name of the Rain City Movement, plus some not affiliated with the group (http://www.nwcn.com/news/Real-Life-Superheroes-Hit-Seattle-Streets-109317779.html). Many are part of a national superhero movement (http://www.reallifesuperheroes.com/). All you really have to do is take these guys and toss in magic, shadow-technology, cybernetics, bioware and genetech.
-
And just like real life, the SR guys probably are rare and low key. Else they would have a short life span.
-
This thread gives me the impression that many of you don't really know what high-concept means.
Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think anyone really knows what high-concept means... (http://www.writersstore.com/high-concept-defined-once-and-for-all)
-
That was a pretty interesting read, thanks for that Kontact!
-
This thread gives me the impression that many of you don't really know what high-concept means.
Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think anyone really knows what high-concept means... (http://www.writersstore.com/high-concept-defined-once-and-for-all)
Whoa, that link was incredibly useful. Thanks a lot for that.
-
I'll just say flat out that I use the comic book definition as best exemplified by the Twitter hashtag #coremarveluniverse that led to this article (http://www.comicsalliance.com/2009/11/24/true-stories-of-the-core-marvel-universe/) and can be summed up as one or two-sentence descriptions of utter batshit insanity masking what is actually something amazing.
-
I have to say this, in this thread.
DEATH TO THE EVIL OVERLORD RULES!!!
Ah, that's better.
-
Hate to necropost, but I felt it was worth mentioning. Saw this on Twitter this morning:
@bencnn Ben Wedemen It took just four days for protesters to push Mubarak govt to the brink of the abyss. FOUR DAYS. #Jan25 #Egypt
Everytime I see someone talk about impossible or improbable in SR, I will point them to this tweet.
-
Heh. Where are your Shadowrun-honed cynism skills? It are not so much the protestors themselves, but most likely the military letting the protestors riot. The military could bloodily end the whole thing in a matter of hours. However, they most likely want get rid of the Mubaraks, so that they can then appoint his successor (just as they did Mubarak and his two predecessors), instead of a dynastic succession by Mubarak jr. Nothing is impossible, really, but there are usually very good reasons for anything happening in the background - we just dont always know the background. Translated into fictional worlds I guess that means that the authors should at least have a rough grasp of the background dynamics, even if it isnt revealed to the players. But it does ensure some internal consistency.
Oh, and as for Evo and Horizon mentioned earlier in the thread: I never liked them especially because they are all "good guys". I dont like it. There is after all a reason why megacorps usually arent that. Though, I guess Horizon is simply an example of how a megacorp with a Reputation 12 rating looks like, heh.
-
I grew up and realized that if I continued living with that much cynicism I was effectively living like I ate a bullet when I was twelve.
-
Eh, there's a difference between the personal level and news-level events. I don't think everybody is only out to make profit, but OTOH there is a lot of shit going on in the world, and after all Egypt is a dictatorship established some decades ago by the military...
Anyway, my point in regards to the subdiscussion was that there always are internal dynamics, even if they are maybe not known. There must always be some internal coherence, and too unrealistic events might destroy that coherence.
-
Not every army sees the populace as their enemy.
It takes a lot to get a soldier to fire on his own people.
-
Not every army sees the populace as their enemy.
It takes a lot to get a soldier to fire on his own people.
Only if they were mindless zombies would I have.
-
Not every army sees the populace as their enemy.
It takes a lot to get a soldier to fire on his own people.
Only if they were mindless zombies would I have.
Waitaminnit... weren't you a Marine?
<ducks and runs for cover>
-
Waitaminnit... weren't you a Marine?
<ducks and runs for cover>
Might wanna rephrase that Jack ;)
Semper Fi
-
Waitaminnit... weren't you a Marine?
<ducks and runs for cover>
Might wanna rephrase that Jack ;)
Semper Fi
I have the highest respect for you guys, just can't help poking fun now and again. ;)
-
Good thread, but I fear its gotten a weee bit off topic.
As for superheroes in Shadowrun, it reminds me of a quote, the origin and total I don't recall, I believe it was the Batman TV Tropes page (invaluable resource, highly addictive!), and it was to the effect that Batman balances on a thin line between what modern technology makes plausible and way too out there sci fi. Basically what happens to Batman when we invent cloth body armor that can stop antitank rockets? He won't seem very gritty and street then, so where is the dramatic tension then?
A similar thing exists in Shadowrun. Becoming more than human is something you can do on your lunchbreak at the mall os SR. Armored skin, human limit breaking muscle replacement and bone strengthening, move by wire systems, cybereyes that see in every spectrum; a superman is YOU! Somewhat lacking in personal flight options but with magic anything is possible! Got laser eyes, but theyre too weak to do much damage. Alternately, have a mage who casts the Laser spell from his eyes!
Now we have a weak Superman, but a superman nonethelesss. Now, if you can afford to do that, you can become a very dangerous person, but of course, the criminals you want to fight can get access to likely even more powerful abilities. So your ability to bust up drug operations and protection rackets is limited to how long it takes the local syndicate to put together a cybered up monster kick artists to shuffle you loose from the mortal coil. And so ends a brief but exciting foray into superheroics.
Now, vigilantes like the Punisher might last longer. Someone who fights smart, with military gear and training. That could work, but the same problem exists. Syndicates and corps can afford their own SF commando squads to hunt you down. But I think really street level vigilantes, guys who fight crime in a lowkey way, and don't tangle with the big fish much? They could do some good and perhaps survive. Think of a neighborhood protector in the Barrens or anoer Z zone. No cops, no law, no order. The local street gangs are the closest thing to an authority and they take their orders from the syndicates above them. Someone with the skills and motivation to defend his neighborhood cpuld wipe out the local gang and defend his turf, likely with help from his neighbors. That kind of punk, neo-anarchist vibe fits well into SR I think.
Reading the thread, I also thought of a superhero inspired nut, who awakens as mystic adept, and all his spells and powers are superhero themed. He doesn't think hes a mage,he thinks he has straight up superpowers. A costumed crazy with apparantly real powers!
-
In 2nd/3rd ed (I don't remember which...it was a while back), I had a combat Shaman with Quickened Levitation spell (5 successes, Magic of 7) and the Channelling metamagic.
It allowed him to use the Critter 'Movement' Power to get a personal flying speed of 175+ (depending on Spirit Force). Not quite superman, but was nice to race Blitzen down the street 8)
Of course, drain was a bitch..... :-[
-
"He's doing his Superman thing..."
-
And now he's doing his Superman on Green Kryptonite thing. Wow, I think he's bleeding from his, everywhere.
-
And now he's doing his Superman on Green Kryptonite thing. Wow, I think he's bleeding from his, everywhere.
Yeah, from memory it was about 40-50 min of happy flight time before SpiritForce(moderate) drain came raining on my parade...
Still, was fun while it lasted :)
And if not on a run, having a spirit service to maintain Movement from Sunrise-Sundown (and vice versa) was pretty simple.
-
Saves on air fare.
-
Saves on air fare.
Definitely...and cab rides or gas money. As a Barrens-living combat-shaman, it also saved having to buy a drive skill (and a vehicle to use it with)
Of course, good stealth skills and spirit concealment powers helped to get around without being stopped at every street corner ;)
Or used for target practice!
-
Just remember that you share airspace. :P
I remember one Shadowtalker complaining about having to share airspace with flights that didn't carry Radio Identifiers, and then confirmed he was talking about Dragons.
-
Just remember that you share airspace. :P
I remember one Shadowtalker complaining about having to share airspace with flights that didn't carry Radio Identifiers, and then confirmed he was talking about Dragons.
Oh, Dragons have right of way. It's in the official SeaTac Airspace manual under the section:
'If you intend to live through your next flight, remember this....
-
Yeah, and how big a radar profile do they show? How would that Jumbo Jet or Ballistic Flight even know they were in the flight path of one?
-
Personally, I have no issues with people using SR rules/setting to play superheroes at their table. Or mutant ninja's, cybered up football players, or whatever their imagination lets them come up with, none of my business, if they have fun, more power to them.
BUT (you knew there would be a but didn't you?) I would seriously hate the day I see an official SR sourcebook describing superpowers and superhero costumes, physical adepts are already too damn close for my liking.
I realise SR has to evolve somewhat, its been many years since I got my first 1st ed SR book, but please, there is plenty of more SR'ish (new word?) paths to explore without turning it into a Marvel universe.
The current rules make it perfectly possible to create superheroes and play those, there is no need to ruin the SR Canon by making it official with a sourcebook.
-
I had a NPC Shadowrunner that dressed up like Batman.
Admittedly, he was a 'Runner in 2070 LA, so that kind of explains why, but...
-
I had a NPC Shadowrunner that dressed up like Batman.
Admittedly, he was a 'Runner in 2070 LA, so that kind of explains why, but...
I got no issues with that if it worked in your campaign :) just saying it would (in my opinion) be a sacrilege if I were to see an official shadowrun product describing superheroes and how to customize your spandex suit.
-
In the words of the guy trying to find him in Aztlan's San Diego ComiCon, "He got arrested? You got arrested? YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG! You're not the real Batman!" :P
-
I got no issues with that if it worked in your campaign :) just saying it would (in my opinion) be a sacrilege if I were to see an official shadowrun product describing superheroes and how to customize your spandex suit.
Oh ...
So I guess we can chalk you down as a "No" for that Shadowrun/Mutants & Masterminds crossover.
I like Nightrunner because he doesn't have a cape. Not a fan of capes.
-
I got no issues with that if it worked in your campaign :) just saying it would (in my opinion) be a sacrilege if I were to see an official shadowrun product describing superheroes and how to customize your spandex suit.
Oh ...
So I guess we can chalk you down as a "No" for that Shadowrun/Mutants & Masterminds crossover.
I like Nightrunner because he doesn't have a cape. Not a fan of capes.
Hmm, No Doc.Ocks with Extra-Cyberarms? How disappointing! :(
-
Hey, blame Stephen Kenson for being a DC fanboy (As much as I used to dog on him in that past, I was genuinely delighted to see Green Ronin doing the official DCU RPG).
Anyway, new post on my tumblr.
Have Fun. It's A Game. (http://crimsondude.tumblr.com/post/3803455310/have-fun-its-a-game)
There has been a trend in Shadowrun since Nigel Findley died that this game is Serious Business. It seems to coincide with the same period in comics from what I understand. However, there is a sense of humor and absurdity that he brought to the game that hasn’t been seen since (this was also about the time Tom Dowd left as the first line developer). There is a sense of the absurd that I think is lost in part to the passing of time. The ridiculous trid shows in Shadowbeat have mostly come to pass. The semi-joking tone of the recruitment insert in the Lone Star sourcebook includes reasons for joining that include wearing cool mirror shades and leather uniforms, plus having unlimited donuts and free reign to beat suspects.
-
There has been a trend in Shadowrun since Nigel Findley died that this game is Serious Business. It seems to coincide with the same period in comics from what I understand. However, there is a sense of humor and absurdity that he brought to the game that hasn’t been seen since (this was also about the time Tom Dowd left as the first line developer). There is a sense of the absurd that I think is lost in part to the passing of time. The ridiculous trid shows in Shadowbeat have mostly come to pass. The semi-joking tone of the recruitment insert in the Lone Star sourcebook includes reasons for joining that include wearing cool mirror shades and leather uniforms, plus having unlimited donuts and free reign to beat suspects.
I agree it doesn't all have to be super super serious - And yes those mentioned books are funny, but its still within the concept and scope of the Shadowrun setting, and for example then a sourcebook like Neo-Anarchists guide to real life (or shadowbeat if its a reality show), mentioning people running around being superheroes in a funny and comical tone and being trashed by shadowtalk would be perfectly ok by me to add, a section of rules describing how to PLAY one is not, there is a distinction there.
In other words, adding fluff which is funny and comical is fine, adding rules to steer shadowrun away from what it is, is not.
I hope it makes some sense and doesn't just make me look like one of the before mentioned "haters" :)
-
There's a global trend in media at large. A look at Star Trek uniforms over the years would tell it better than I could explain. The average person doesn't want to "look funny", and this extends to heroes, protagonist, stars or whatever the audience should identify to. The Nolan Batman movies reboot of the series is all about this. Ironically, Burton Batman movies themselves probably count among the trend setters. If it wasn't for Lady Gaga, where have been the heirs of David Bowie, Freddy Mercury, KISS or Angus Young in the past twenty years ? Punky Brewster days are over.
With Shadowrun, I think there have been very different things happening. The first is that long-term development of a storyline don't cope well with the absurd. The course of events has to make sense somehow. The second one is the streamlining of the line. There are fewer books with a more dense content. What would have made a book in the first or second edition (Tir Tairngire, Fields of Fire) got a chapter in the third (Shadows of North America, SOTA). Wordcount beats irony. And finally, writing something funny, and moreover something funny to everyone (as opposed to say, just yourself or your gaming group) is difficult. Maybe better not trying than falling flat.
Still, as a gamemaster or player, I can add some humor and make some jokes in a dead serious setting. I would have a harder time fitting serious ideas if the background was some sort of implausible giant circus. But I must admit that's a moot point, since I am playing games the serious way 99% of the time (even my game involving a song contest opposing megacorporation-sponsored J-pop bands featured a dense plot on Ares intelligence services manipulating a Californian ork terrorist group).
-
Well, to get around the seriousness, I've had the group extract Goofy from DisneyLand, and rescue a Shadowrunner that dresses as Batman from San Diego, Aztlan during the Year-Long ComiCon.
Of course, my group has now unanimously agreed that they hate LA.
-
I've know players and GMs who were not happy unless a game (system/setting) had at least potential for absurdity. The two I particularly remember liked a lot of the 'fluff' bits of SR to counter the dystopian material & mindset.
-
The Scatterbrains (Splatterbrains maybe?), the gang that goes around dressed like clowns playing, sometimes deadly, pranks on people. Tangled with the Spikes a few times and came out on top iirc.
Edit- I try to balance the silly and serious, but my games tend to end up on the silly side. It's all fun though.
-
Here's a question!(statement in disguise) What RAW SR cites would be best set up to support a Super Hero runner?(there's the question)
Hey how about a heroic adept path...thoughts?(damn it! its a supplication that slides into a question)
-
Here's a question!(statement in disguise) What RAW SR cites would be best set up to support a Super Hero runner?(there's the question)
Los Angeles. That bit of flair, flash, and over-the-top appearance would help spike the runners' P2.0 ratings, especially among the 8-16 year old males market share. Add to that, the back lots of movie studios would make a great place to "blend in" for escapes.
-
Here's a question!(statement in disguise) What RAW SR cites would be best set up to support a Super Hero runner?(there's the question)
Well ... That depends. What kind of superhero do you want to play as? What genre, comics age, theme, tone, era, etc?
Here's the thing about Los Angeles. No one gives a g-d about that stuff the same way the teeming masses in flyover states do. It's ... political. And it's business. And it's something that no one who's written about L.A. has ever seemed to understand. The one thing CFS kind of got right is that for all the stars, there is a much larger creative class in L.A. that sits in the middle of every social circle of the Venn diagram that is Los Angeles.
Anyway, I digress.
The thing about L.A. is that it's huge. It stretches over the horizon in every direction when you're flying over it. There are no neighborhoods you can take responsibility to patrol over.
The canon 4e sprawls are Seattle, Hong Kong, Istanbul, Hamburg, Cape Town, Caracas, Los Angeles, Neo-Tokyo, Tenochtitlan, Europort, Nairobi, Dubai, Manhattan, Chicago, Lagos, Geneva, Sarajevo, GeMiTo, Karavan, Bogota, Albuquerque, Mogadishu, Katmandu, Warsaw, and Marienbad. Spy Games will cover Denver and some other cities, Conspiracy Theories is London, and ... That's all I can say for now. Plus the writeups in 6WA.
DC's Coast City is an analogue for L.A./San Diego, and that works well for the Green Lantern since he can fly. Central City is an analogue for Chicago. Wonder Woman currently operates in Washington, D.C. Power Girl in New York along with 80% of the Marvel Universe. Paul Cornell's written some awesome British superhero stories for the Big Two if you can wait for Conspiracy Theories; and those supers tend to be the magical sort (or you can go all-out and play John Constantine). Given the way it's been described up to and including its piece in War!, Albuquerque seems to be one of the Cities of Tomorrow that could stand in for Metropolis (Dubai, Manhattan, and Neo-Tokyo also fit this description). Los Angeles, Chicago, Lagos are all more than big enough to stand in for No Man's Land-era Gotham City or post-Cry for Justice Star City. Los Angeles, Tenochtitlan, and Caracas are all dirty, massive sprawls that can stand in for Gotham.
Hey how about a heroic adept path...thoughts?(damn it! its a supplication that slides into a question)
Critias is my go-to guy on 4e adepts (He's literally written the ebook on them). He's kind of busy, but maybe he'll chime in when he gets a chance.
From this week's Economist: Glitzkrieg: Reputation management (http://www.economist.com/node/18330435)
Respectability is for sale. Here is a buyer’s guide. Names are omitted to protect the guilty from blushes and us from lawsuits
I can't help but think of various run ideas based on their suggestions.
-
Here's a question!(statement in disguise) What RAW SR cites would be best set up to support a Super Hero runner?(there's the question)
Hey how about a heroic adept path...thoughts?(damn it! its a supplication that slides into a question)
What's the Hollywood scene like in Shadowrun?
Currently, the wackiest fashion is perfectly legit, and a caped crusader walking down the street will attract less attention than the Mankini-wearing dog-walker.....
Although, be prepared to be stopped for autographs and photos....
-
Hey how about a heroic adept path...thoughts?(damn it! its a supplication that slides into a question)
I'm kind of missing the question, here, I think. Just looking for ideas for cool "superhero" adept powers? Or was there more to it? If you're just after some neat ideas for a would-be superhero adept to take, it's gonna be a lot of the usual suspects from shadowrunning adepts, really. Vigilantes can still run the usual gamut of stealth and combat powers that most folks use, but the fun bit would be going for more distinctive stuff (and maybe a bit less worry about anonimity and subtlety).
'Cause if there's ever been a time for Killing Hands, Critical Strike, and some Elemental Strike add-ons...
(http://www-deadline-com.vimg.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/ironfist.jpg)
8)
-
I'm curious. What is it about the average Phys-ad (or even shadowrunner) that is 'Not' a superhero ability?
Faster, Stronger, Better, generally awesome superhuman (super-metahuman?) abilities....
If you pump some development karma in to make a Legendary runner, I'm sure you'll see more than a few superheroes emerge if you build that way. Key examples could be:
- Stryker (http://www.weirdspace.dk/TopCow/MorganStryker.htm) - Street Sam Archtype - Extra Cyberlimbs and Battletac systems
- Deadpool (http://wickedcoolcomics.wordpress.com/2010/02/22/deadpool-reckoning/) - Phys-ad Archtype - Regeneration plus excellent weapon/unarmed/firearms skills
- Zatanna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zatanna)/Dr.Strange (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Strange) - Hermetic Mage Archtype - Magician plus ultra
-
It's something that was mentioned in the movie "The Incredibles," when everyone is super...no one is.
-
Just make "The Punisher", and, hey, you've just made a typical Shadowrunner. :P
-
I'm curious. What is it about the average Phys-ad (or even shadowrunner) that is 'Not' a superhero ability?
Mostly the fact that their abilities aren't unique. It's their mindset (and discretion) that lets shadowrunners do what shadowrunners do, not just their die pools.
-
Discretion. Unless you're in LA, then it's RATINGS!
-
I'm curious. What is it about the average Phys-ad (or even shadowrunner) that is 'Not' a superhero ability?
Mostly the fact that their abilities aren't unique. It's their mindset (and discretion) that lets shadowrunners do what shadowrunners do, not just their die pools.
Meh. 'unique' superhero abilities are getting few and far between these days.
But the standard of being a Kung-fu trained Parkour expert seems to be gaining ground (and I know I've used it...a lot :))
-
But the standard of being a Kung-fu trained Parkour expert seems to be gaining ground (and I know I've used it...a lot :))
I've even used that for my Accountant From Hell. Minus the Kung-Fu.
Combat pragmatism. He makes people who fight dirty look good in comparison. Martial arts follows too many rules for him to like much. Parkour is mostly a mobility martial art for escape or evasion.
-
Which is to say it's a mobility art. There's nothing very martial about it. It can be used for martial purposes, yes, but it's not in and of itself a martial art.
And there are plenty of martial arts that don't follow many (or any) rules, especially in the alternate-future of Shadowrun. With brutally effective stuff like Sioux Wildcat, the specialized "murder you with implant weapons" arts, and that sort of thing, mixed in with real-life no-frills stuff like Krav and Kali? You can fight just as dirty as you want to.
-
True enough. Maybe my Accountant From Hell will find a trainer later on in his career, if I ever get to play him.
Although, he does know, "Break your arm with a car door"-style quite well.
-
Which is to say it's a mobility art. There's nothing very martial about it. It can be used for martial purposes, yes, but it's not in and of itself a martial art.
While I agree with you, this is just an opinion. It all depends on your definition of martial art, which can vary greatly:
Martial arts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_art) (literally meaning arts of war but usually referred as fighting arts) are extensive systems of codified practices and traditions of combat. Martial arts all have similar objectives: to physically defeat other persons or defend oneself or others from physical threat.
Parkour would fit into this category under the 'defend oneself' option
martial art (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/martial+art) - any of several Oriental arts of weaponless self-defense; usually practiced as a sport; "he had a black belt in the martial arts"
According to this definition, Krav Maga, Savate and other non-Orient titles are not Martial Arts. It also excludes weapon Martial Arts such as Kendo
MARTIAL ART (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/martial%20art)]: any of several arts of combat and self defense (as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sport
This seems to be the simplest, all-encompassing option.
-
Marital Arts: A misprint of an approved hobby in Alpha Complex where people just stand around in a room, looking uncomfortable. :P
-
I'm not out to be too nitpicky (or to derail yet another thread), so I'll just say that to me the emphasis on the phrase "martial art" has always been martial more than art. So -- using my personal definition -- Parkour doesn't quite quality.
Now, this isn't to say it's any less awesome, or any less on-topic for Shadowrun. Parkour's a great way for a shadowrunner to get around, especially given the cyberware, bioware, and magic that can make them very, very, good at it. It's a great way for a shooter to get into position, get out of position, etc, etc -- so martial characters can certainly use it, but I see it mostly as being in preparation for, or to escape from, an ambush site or something else. I've dug "Mobility Adepts" for kind of a while, folks may recall: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?act=ST&f=7&t=11661&st=0#entry354346 (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?act=ST&f=7&t=11661&st=0#entry354346) ;)
And, given the abstract nature of Shadowrun's Martial Arts qualities (re: Arsenal), I'm not horribly opposed to some athletics (rather than unarmed combat) oriented "Parkour" qualities being cooked up, that help modify running speed or jumping distance or falling damage, that could be priced and categorized similarly to the existing Martial Arts qualities. So I don't mind it being lumped in with "martial arts" in a Shadowrun house rules sense, where those qualities are concerned.
I just...don't consider it a martial art, in the literal senses with which the words are used. ;D
Okay. There. I said my pedantic bit, and we can get back to talking about serious business like crime-fighter vigilante Shadowrunners.
-
Okay. There. I said my pedantic bit, and we can get back to talking about serious business like crime-fighter vigilante Shadowrunners.
The Punisher? Batman for a Pacifistic one?
-
Just make "The Punisher", and, hey, you've just made a typical Shadowrunner. :P
That's actually the aim my gf had with her weapon specialist. A totally mundane character that can kill the crap out of anyone and anything that she crosses paths with. So far, the project is progressing nicely.
-
Just make "The Punisher", and, hey, you've just made a typical Shadowrunner. :P
That's actually the aim my gf had with her weapon specialist. A totally mundane character that can kill the crap out of anyone and anything that she crosses paths with. So far, the project is progressing nicely.
Nice to know.
"God made man, Sam Colt made Men Equal." as the saying goes.
-
Nice to know.
"God made man, Sam Colt made Men Equal." as the saying goes.
Pimped out guns, creative tactics, and high explosives are quite good at leveling the playing field. ;D
EDIT
Fixed my tag errors.
-
And a little Edge from time to time. 8)
-
A comics podcast was discussing him and mentioned that Frank's superpower is anger (He would absolutely be a Red Lantern in DC, which is saying something considering Earth's RL is a Russian Blue cat). Paraphrasing, one of the guys described it as "Imagine the angriest you've ever been in your life. That's Frank when he gets up in the morning." SR and Punisher also have a direct link through the fantastic Tim Bradstreet (It'd have been awesome if he and Alex Ross had pieces in the 20th anniversary book).
The thing about the Punisher is that Matt Fraction's and especially Rick Remender's run showed what it would take for Frank to exist in the regular Marvel universe. And then he pissed off Osborn so much that the entirety of HAMMER was sent to hunt him for 24 hours and he was sliced up to become a Frankenstein monster -- because shit like that happens in the core Marvel universe all the time.
The cool thing about SR's various aspects is that magic is a real help in replicating superhumans.
Speaking of which, the blogger MightyGodKing had an interesting series of thoughts on Dr. Strange that I think would be an interesting tone and style to run as a type of Shadowrun magic campaign. The gist is that he knows certain "easy" spells and magic, but for really complicated actions in his role as defender of reality it would involve him working as essentially a Face negotiating favors and deals with powerful spirits to do the job. In SR it would be in the form of dealing with powerful free spirits and Totem spirits among other things.
-
How to describe a Shadowrun fight between Adepts: "Punisher Vs. The Russian". :P
Adept Vs. Cyberzombie: "Punisher Vs. The Russian, Round Two". With a second Adept guest star, Spider-Man!
Shadowrun Vehicular Combat: The Punisher One-Shot: Hot Rods of Death.
Old Shadowrunners demonstrating how to discipline a bad Mr. Johnson: Col. Nick Fury taking his belt off around a bunch of Generals.
-
I don't read the comic anymore but I understand this latest issue of Punisher MAX has a brutally violent fight between Frank and Bullseye. And I mean brutal by MAX standards.
-
That actually sounds awesome.
Oddly enough, I can see a Deadpool character coming out of SR. Someone makes a spirit pact and can't die for a while (or consumes an awakened drug to get the same effect), goes insane from spirit talking into his head. Hijinks ensue.
-
I meant to mention it before, but one thing that Economist article about reputation management does is provide some depth and background so that I may actually give some thought to the European aristocrat/titled noble cabal for once.
-
Oddly enough, I can see a Deadpool character coming out of SR. Someone makes a spirit pact and can't die for a while (or consumes an awakened drug to get the same effect), goes insane from spirit talking into his head. Hijinks ensue.
I could probably make Deadpool in ShadowRun. Not so sure how to make some of my other favorite characters. Like the GLA.
-
One of my local gaming group, who's new to gaming in general and had never played Shadowrun before, got hauled in as a playtester for Ancient Pawns. It seemed like a good idea at the time, especially since AP is going into the convention mission pack stuff, and made specifically for con gaming (where sometimes you get someone who's totally new to the game).
He randomly pulled the Weapons Specialist pre-gen, saw that they had guns and two katanas, and kind of went into Deadpool mode. I tried to explain that his character was a generalist and kind of a "support combatant" (largely because the Weapon Specialist pre-gen could be made a hojillion times better by a little chrome), but he was in full-on Wade Wilson mindset, leaping into the fray, wisecracking, and trying to skewer stuff with his katanas instead of really listening to what was going on or paying attention to what his character was actually good at. A dwarf KO'ed him with one punch, mid-adventure, and he toned it down a little after that.
Ahhh, good times.
-
Hmm...I once played in a Star Wars game using Shadowrun rules. Ah, the joys of playing a gangsta cybered-up Street Jedi...
-
The Tick made an appearance in one of the games I played in. He seemed to fit in that not quite right in the head street sammie kinda way...
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BEOyTD7DQYQ/TWQQD_bsebI/AAAAAAAAAfQ/-YsdmG_N0hw/s1600/the-tick.jpg)
-
Meh, i blame the change in RPG fandom on the people that railed against white wolf to the point that they redefined RPG as tag team story telling. Suddenly everyone was to be the GM, or the GM was a evil dictator. And if you where not telling deep, soul searching stories you where having "bad wrong fun". When some start classifying others in the fandom as retarded for not "getting" their creative genius, you know things have hit rock bottom and continued digging.
-
I have creative genius?
Why has no one told me this yet?
-
You didn't get the memo?
-
I'd have to have a job to get a memo.
-
Anything and anyone can be a munchkin (powergamer) in any RPG.
You can be a munchkin in SR, D&D, Conan, Star Wars, AFMBE, Dark Heresy, CoC... I won't name them all. But you can be a powergamer in any single thing you put your mind to, especially RPGs. The question is ; how much of a munchkin do you want to be? Do you -want- to be basically invincible and take down anything that comes your path? Or do you want the gritty, desperate low-power character?
Sometimes I want to play Superman difficulty, where the world is made of cardboard. Sometimes, I feel like playing Charlie Brown, and -I- am the cardboard.
As long as everyone (including GM) know what they are getting into, it's fine. Sometimes, you get to be the Avengers. Sometimes, you're lucky if you wind up looking like the Tick and his merry bunch of sickos.
And as for Deadpool? Too much cyberware, burned some Edge to survive nasty death, ends up looking like chopped liver. Simple, easy, effective.
-
Sometimes, I feel like playing Charlie Brown, and -I- am the cardboard.
Sometimes? That's how I always feel.
Oh, and this (http://www.whatisdeepfried.com/product.html#comics), BTW. (Warning, as NSFW as Shadowrun itself!).
-
I hate NSFW. Depending on your employer's leniency if it's not work-related everything is NSFW.
Sorry. Mini rant there.
-
Yes but there is a world of difference between forum browsing and someone walking by while you have an image of metal bikini clad anime girls up on your screen.
-
Yes but there is a world of difference between forum browsing and someone walking by while you have an image of metal bikini clad anime girls up on your screen.
Time to find a new line of work then.
-
I hate NSFW. Depending on your employer's leniency if it's not work-related everything is NSFW.
Sorry. Mini rant there.
OK, let me correct myself: Partial Nudity and Possible Gorn.
-
Back in SR3 I wrote a smallish (unpublished) article on Superheroes in the Shadowrun universe. The piece was still in the early stages of writing (I think it was in the second draft) when the e-zine it was for folded up and I never did a real final draft.
My basic take was that there ARE superheroes in the Shadowrun universe. They're rare and they are for the most part mentally ill or people pushed beyond the point of a "reasonable" response into the unreasonable. They believe themselves to be real-life comic book heros. The original concept was based on the actual "real life" superheroes running around right now then adding in the ability to actually become super human.
While I never incorporated the article into my games formally, I have had two groups of runners run into someone claiming to be a superhero.
I actually ran a run where the players were hired to kill a superhero named NeoMan in the barrens for messing with the Crush. He was insane and haunted by a matrix ghost.
-
I hate NSFW. Depending on your employer's leniency if it's not work-related everything is NSFW.
Sorry. Mini rant there.
There are employers that consider it a privilege that their employees can scan the internetz while at work.
I personally think that as long as the job is done, you should be able to do whatever with your on-work time, besides downloading porn and such.
-
Sometimes, I feel like playing Charlie Brown, and -I- am the cardboard.
Sometimes? That's how I always feel.
Oh, and this (http://www.whatisdeepfried.com/product.html#comics), BTW. (Warning, as NSFW as Shadowrun itself!).
*Hug*
-
Well...not sure about the marvel universe or even DC....but Manga has brought us Silent Mobius: a excellent example of a Shadowrun Police campaign in a not very nice version of Tokyo.
-
Definitely Deathlok (Marvel) would fit a cybered-out Street Sam.
-
Hey, why didn't I think of this before?
Dethklok! They're totally edgy and metal! They're cybernetics away from being a group of really stupid Shadowrunners!
-
Deathlok is a cyberzombie, and based on a rejected pitch for the original cyberzombie—Robocop.
-
You could do Deathlok without resorting to a dual-natured cyberzombie. I was thinking more of the Michael Collins-era Deathlok where his brain was transplanted into the electronics.
-
Dominion Tank Police
Gost In the Shell
Cybercity Odeo 808
just to name a few....
oh, and I made Gorilla Grodd, weak in comparsion to the real Grodd, but influence and mob control can be fun...
-
Did he have a jetpack?
Grodd needs a jetpack.
-
Deathlok is a cyberzombie, and based on a rejected pitch for the original cyberzombie—Robocop.
No, Dethklok, the Heavy Metal band in Metalocalypse.
-
Ah. Never mind.
-
Pfeh. Snake Plissken rules.
-
Pfeh. Snake Plissken rules.
I thought he was taller. And dead. :P
-
Would it help if he were shorter and living?
-
Being alive always helps.
-
Being alive always helps.
Well, when just out of spite you've plunged the entire world into an EMP-fuelled age of anti-tech, it would probably help to keep a low profile :P
-
Well, when just out of spite you've plunged the entire world into an EMP-fuelled age of anti-tech, it would probably help to keep a low profile :P
Personally, I blame the President for that particular choice.
"Welcome to the human race."
-
Well, when just out of spite you've plunged the entire world into an EMP-fuelled age of anti-tech, it would probably help to keep a low profile :P
Personally, I blame the President for that particular choice.
"Welcome to the human race."
Hell, I thought it was a good call...but still, there would be bad-@ss consequences beyond the final scene...
-
Hell, I thought it was a good call...but still, there would be bad-@ss consequences beyond the final scene...
Good luck catching him.
...
OK, good luck holding him. Catching him seems to be easy. :P
-
You know it came to me that I never got much traction recreating our final campaign into a story that I would be able to own outright (Well, I wouldn't mind sharing with the other players, but I mean no copyright liability related to SR), and while that was grounded entirely in an alternate but very realistic future, that damned if it wouldn't be more appropriate to write it with superhumans in mind.
-
I love the idea of High Concept in Shadowrun. To me, its an excellent way of changing things up from time to time. Throwing in an element of 'what the?' that players aren't expecting really helps shake things up and keeps a game from feeling monotonous.
A few examples:
Back in SR (before we had editions), I got talked one weekend into running for a group at a local gaming club that included both ridiculous ('Monty Haul' level) characters and average ones. The real power creep players were ones that had their own shell megacorp in game and figured whatever a GM could come up with they'd have whatever they wanted to throw at the problem to solve it. So I went completely off the charts, passed up superheroes and went straight to aliens; A Predator II remake came to mind.
My feverish mind quickly set on an unknown craft recorded breaching Seattle airspace and disappearing somewhere around Hell's Kitchen, Puyallup (it burrowed itself under the lava flows). The players went to investigate, took everything they thought they would need and found themselves unprepared for an alien hunt that stretched all the way back into downtown and left them feeling like the hunted. In the end, a good time was had by all that weekend. And I have one player that to this day is still in a gaming group with me playing Shadowrun.
----------
My second installment of High Concept was when I developed a SR3 story that involved a single A research division that was delving further along 'Dreamchipper' paths of artificial implanted personalities. They were focusing along 'hero' concepts to make super soldiers, and had developed a dark knight/vigilante persona. One of the VPs in charge of the project had a son that was bad into BTLs and was hopeful that some of their research would lead to a 'cure' for his son. To sum up the rest, the beetlehead got ahold of the chip, slotted it thinking it was a fix, became 'Batman', took the experimental armor and rigger gear/vehicle housed on site (bad choice for corp, good for plot) and started terrorizing street gangs.
Enter the players. They meet with the Johnson, get a job with nuyen too good for any of them to pass up, then find they're up against a super hero they need to take down and bring in alive along with all of his gear. Not what anyone expected, but again a fun time delivered by introducing some High Concept.
----------
Lastly, I've been delving into the idea of playing a free spirit in the group I'm currently with. I figured since free spirits are a bit off the norm anyways, I'd go ahead and run with it. The idea is to play an air spirit that had been continuously summoned over a number of years by an old Chinese monk who had a taste for retro 2d video games of the previous century. Mortal Kombat in particular. Elemental Attack- Electricity? Check. Martial Arts? Check. Straw douli hat? Check. Look out SR4, here comes Raiden! 8)
High Concept is a wonderful thing to play with from time to time. And I hope 'true believers' will keep developing it.
-
And just to throw out one other concept that could fit well along super heroes and other not-so-common ideas.....
We have AIs and vehicle customization rules. So roll out that Knight Industries Two Thousands + model and get your Hoff hair on. ;D
-
First note, I have not, in detail, read this entire thread. 12 pages is allot to read in 1 sitting. My wife sent me this link as most of my games over the past 25 years have been "High Concept" (Shadowrun, Star Wars d6, Cyberpunk, D&D, Mutants and Masterminds, TMNT, Rifts, Star Trek, Call of Cthulhu, Warhammer Fantasy, Palladium Fantasy, D20 Modern, allot more I can't remember off the top of my head and about a dozen or so most of you probably haven't even heard of).
One player in my current campaign (before he moved away) was fascinated with Deadpool. He had the personality to pull off playing him too. Now I allowed him to play an "inspired" by Deadpool by letting him have critter Regeneration. Tool all 5 power points he had, but he was cool with it. Room to grow. It was a BLAST! All of his IC commentary was perfect, the other players love him (between laughing and holding face in palm) and Regeneration, while I was VERY iffy about it at first, really wasn't half as overpowered as I feared.
Now my current campaign (2 1/2 years running now) is very High Concept. One might even say Epic. Dealing with metaplots, crossed universe concepts, the whole shebang. Part of the fun to me.
To me, this is the best way to run. My players agree. Hell, they even tried to take Munchie Run up a notch. lol
-
Slight tangent there, I know, but... The point is, 15 years ago, I wrote up rules for playing Spider-Man. I created rules for web shooters, someone else had created a custom Gecko Crawl adept power. And it was a fun time. Most of the folks on the old RN mailing list said "Hey, cool. I'd never use taht in my game, but good job." and that was that.
Other people created Wolverine (Really easy) and other superheroes. At one point, someone had rules for Caps Shield, throwing it, catching it, etc. The really crazy powerful characters tended to get left out, so no Superman or anything, but a lot of the low and mid-level heroes? They were done at one point or another. And no one said the game sucked because you could do that. No one said that we sucked fo thinking that was an interesting excercise in rules and character design.
Nowadays? If we started a thread about that, it would be lucky to get 20 posts in before someone starting bitching. Because apparently anyone having fun in a way that differs from theirs totally ruins the game for them. ;/
Wankers.
Hrmmm... You know... Maybe I'll work up a team of Marvel Hero based runners to use as an opposing Shadowrun team for Missions or something. :)
Bull
I can only say I wouldn't complain about Rules for being Spiderman in Shadowrun.
And I'd never complain about throwing shields Ala Steve Rogers. Actually if I had the Mechanical chops in any given system, Cap's Shield would probably be the first thing I'd try to recreate. OK, maybe Eyebeams or Dinobot's spinning Shield first.
-
Inspired by characters are really easy.
Mystique - Actual villain in my game. A little slower on her shifting in Shadowrun, but once she is out of sight for a few, you'll never find her again.
Spidey - A little harder, but a mix of Bioware and Adept, or even a straight bioware version.
Cyclops - Which is where your eyebeam comment comes in, I take it? Easy. Sorcery adept. Visor is a focus. Maybe even the single spell quality (Knack I think?) if the GM allows for the increase in Magic option.
Beast - Too easy.
Captain America - Genecraft and bioware.
Hulk - Troll adept with bioware. I know I just make a troll min/max OMG build as a conceptual exercise. I like to see how to break things so it's harder for my players to try.
Bats - Again too easy.
Iron Man - If you use a larger armor, not body hugging, straight freekin rigger.
Constantine - ...wait, already an Archetype.
Cat Woman - again, an Archetype already.
Green Arrow/Hawkeye/Artimis - Adepts, Improved Ability and damn good gear
Bullseye - hehe. Already broke that one. An adept with a base damage of 8P with a throwing knife....yeah.
Punisher - easy
She-hulk - ork with reconstructive surgery maybe? and takes a cue from uber-trog above (Hulk concept)
I could go on for a while. While none of these would be as they are in the comics (no lifting mountain ranges for the uber-troll) but can fit the flavor nicely. I mean the troll I built can survive a head on collision form a car at high speed, and walk away. Not uninjured, but walk away.
I even encourage this in my players. I mean why not? If a character gets a nuyen windfall, and has always idolized Wolverine, why not let the player run with it? He's off to the chop-shop for spurs and bioware. Or an adept growing up reading exploits of the Savage Dragon and goes off to join Lone Star after he awakens? The Deadpool we had in my game was a blast. I would love it if he could visit, even for a session or 2.
But, ymmv. It's all on how much of an artistic license you are willing to take,and how much of a "purist" you want to be.
Jareth
-
Iron Fist & Luke Cage were both easy and fun to make.
-
They totally slipped my mind, but yeah, super easy for those two as well.
I'm tempted to start doing random builds again. This has got me nostalgic for one of my old gaming groups. 8)