Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: oxford on <12-20-12/1802:00>
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So i have a PC who has munchkined the hell out of his character, i try not to second guess their build but his character has destroyed every challenge i have thrown. He is a troll w pimped out military armor and all the fixings, w mystic armor his total armor comes to over 40/40. His attacks and str are ridiculous and he has arcane arrestor so mages have a hell of a time affecting him (they usaly don't get a chance w his adrenaline surge). Tranq darts dont work due to military armor, and with the party nothing last much longer than one round. Any advise to challenge this PC?
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Swarm of Spirits of Man force 6 with either reduce willpower or influence....
NPC with edge and Levietate... straight up...
More missions which don't require combat or require subtle combat to avoid drawing attention from KE.
Tunnel combat were explosives (including explosive rounds) etc may trigger 'bad stuff' (ie Aliens movie scenario)
Its pretty rare for runners to be able to use military armour without attracting serious attention... and most shadowruns require... being subtle...
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Pure Spirit Mantis group.
The horror. The pain.
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Honestly, the first step would be to sit down with the player and explain what you perceive the problem to be. A lot of time a simple conversation about expected power levels will let you come to a mutually satisfactory solution. I find that the "arms race" model tends up being pretty punitive and not fun for anyone. While taking the character out of their element, or separating them from their gear, can both be fun as story devices they're pretty unsatisfactory solutions to the problem at the table.
So my suggestion is just talk it out. Sit down and say "look, this is the issue I'm seeing, what resolution can we come to that will let all of us have fun at the table." Having a conversation with the group of players can also be a useful tool. Talk to the players about what power level they'd like to see and then tailor the game appropriately.
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So i have a PC who has munchkined the hell out of his character, i try not to second guess their build but his character has destroyed every challenge i have thrown. He is a troll w pimped out military armor and all the fixings, w mystic armor his total armor comes to over 40/40. His attacks and str are ridiculous and he has arcane arrestor so mages have a hell of a time affecting him (they usaly don't get a chance w his adrenaline surge). Tranq darts dont work due to military armor, and with the party nothing last much longer than one round. Any advise to challenge this PC?
Before I start, let me say that this is entirely your fault for allowing the character into play to begin with. One of the DM's primary responsibilities is to check over charsheets before play to make sure that broken crap like this doesn't see the light of day. For that, you should be beaten about the head with a phone book. Now, as far as suggestions go:
1) Does he sleep/eat/bathe in armor? No? There's an opening.
2) Someone running around in heavy milspec armor, whether they're a troll or not, is going to be VERY noticable. Not only that, but his teammates will be very noticable, too. They should all be getting some heavy notoriety just from being around him, bounties posted on their heads, their contacts should be drying up because they're just too hot, etc.
3) Question the build. Question it long and hard. Honestly, a build that obscene should never have been allowed in play to begin with.
4) Dragon with Demolish Armor.
5) Capture his family/whatever few contacts are still talking to him, and kill them if he doesn't strip out of the armor. If he strips out of the armor, multiple long full bursts of SnS.
Honestly, though, take the player aside, tell him that the build is unbalancing the game, and give him the option of either reworking the character to not be obscene, or allow him to transfer Karma over to a new character, which you'll actually check over before blindly allowing it into the game.
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How is he getting the mystic armor, btw?
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Trolls can often be pretty scary. When you look at their racial stats, it's very tempting to build on their strengths. Here are some ways you could deal with him:
1. Have your NPC's use weapons or spells that cut his armor dice in half.
2. Set up a brutal ambush and focus fire him
3. Knock him into water, forcing him to exit his suit
4. Attack him when he's not wearing his armor. If he always gets to use it, I think you're not challenging him enough
5. Snipers
6. Similar opposition in terms of damage resistance
7. Try to get the group split up and get him to duel someone of equal or greater power
8. Attack him with a vehicle
I'm not suggesting you be cheap but these are some ways you can challenge him. I think it's fair as long as you don't go TOO far with it. If he has enemies, it shouldn't be a secret that he's tough to deal with so NPC's should be able to make suitable plans to deal with him too.
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Military armor stacks with mystic armor, but not with any other armor, so I'm not sure how he's getting 40 armor - 40 soak pool, I could see, but not that much armor.
You should probably challenge such a character obliquely - still let him play the badass he seems to want to be, and mow down some hapless mooks every now and them, but mix it up. Maybe a job could be covert security work at a high-class society affair, where armor and weapons need to be discrete. Or finding a slippery con man to collect a bounty. Or replacing a prototype with a dummy, without anyone at the lab noticing the switch.
Don't take him so far out of his specialty that he is frustrated and twiddling his thumbs with nothing to do, but give him some challenges that aren't straight-up scraps. This goes double if he took some glaring weaknesses or omissions in other areas to be so buff. Don't be too vindictive, but if he is lacking in matrix awareness or social skills, then have the vulnerability come up occasionally in minor ways.
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im thinking of throwing a succubus at him, he saves a civilian (little girl) from big mean corp security, then when he picks her up boom she spells him.
or, creating a mind control device that attaches to the victim and emits signals to control its mind, not magic and doesnt need physical contact, as long as it sneaks up on him could be awesome
thanks everyone
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Eh, I'd be careful about throwing plotonium devices at him. That's a bad spiral to go down. Seriously, just take him aside, tell him that the character is unbalancing the game, and ask him to either tone it down or put together a new character with the same total karma as the old character had (and this time actually review the character before letting it into play).
And if you don't mind, throw the current monster up here so we can see just how the hell he got such obscene bonuses. Chances are something is seriously out of whack.
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Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle. Halves your Armour then applies AP. Job done.
But yes - particularly if you're a bit inexperienced, it can feel like you can't call the players on this stuff OOC. You might not have realised it was worth setting ground rules, or known what ground rules you wanted to set. That's fair enough. The best route is always to have a quiet and mature conversation about why this character is a problem.
Failing that, play up the social angle as others have said - is this guy going to meets in his milspec armour? How good is his Fake SIN and Fake License? Why the frag are KE or the Star letting this guy walk the streets when he clearly intends to start something?
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Exactly. Going anywhere in milspec armor should have people frantically calling for heavy response teams on the double. Or, in the Barrens, have the local gangers looking to make a name for themselves. Regardless, this goes way beyond 'pink mohawk' levels of crazy, into "Duke Nukem" territory. And you don't have an alien invasion to keep the cops off your back like he did.
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Or stun bolt him. Hit his weaker stat. It doesn't matter that he has arcane arrestor. You push hard enough, it will go.
Have the sniper team make a called shot to bypass armor. Sure, they get a -(way too much) to their dice pools, but an advanced team has a team rating, which acts like a joint Edge stat that they all draw from. If said troll gets way too frisky, the hammer can easily fall with 4 or 5 snipers making that call and using the team rating to buy a 4 or 5 dice pool (which is unaffected by the die penalty, since it starts at 0 for these purposes). That should cut his soak pool in half (at least) and with surprise, those shots can't be dodged.
Yes, this is nasty. But if someone is rolling around laughing off everything thrown at them, then the corps, or whomever, might decide to take care of business once and for all. And this is a mild option.
Alternatively, it doesn't matter how many dice one has to soak. Enough shots come your way, eventually you will run out of luck. Even if every 3rd shooter does 1 box of damage, if you pump a platoon of goons at someone, they will go down. Numbers matter.
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Don't forget to use Edge when attacking him. Edge is a really good tool for getting by soak pools.
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Throw them out the window (or blow the entire floor up...) Falling damage is really... quiet bad.
Or talk to him and make sure he hasnt built a boring one trick pony.
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Arcane Arrester or not, it seems like an Edge-boosted Stunbolt or two and he's down for the count.
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He using any cyberware or tech in general? How good is his security? Someone he's crossed might just hire a hacker or technomancer to mess up his gear - if an enemy engineers his death in a fight against someone/something else, it would be hard to trace back the them. Shut-off cyber-eyes, for example, would be inconvenient. Cyber-eyes getting their video altered to cause you to dodge INTO attacks would be fatal.
There's also the chunky or (if you have War) the pureed salsa rule. For that matter, it should be pretty easy to find about fifty ways to get it done using War or even just Arsenal's modding rules - I'm partial to the High Velocity weapons if you need some truly fantastic destructive power. +11 DV or -11 defence can be pretty potent. Combine with AV/APDS rounds, EX-Ex, or if you're using an HMG to do this Anti-Tank rounds (in War, -6 AP)... Or add High Velocity to one of the rapid-fire grenade launchers in War and fire Gecko Grenades at him in a confined space...
Let's say the attacker gets the drop on him with a modded Ultimax HMG-2 (7P, -3 AP, FA modded to HV, RC 10 [Let's assume an enemy mage conceals him from view for the setup], 100 round belt). Give it the Gyro Stabilizer, smartgun system, Electronic Firing, Underbarrel Weight, and use a couple of extra mod slots because the weapon is so massive for a heavy barrel. This puts it up to 19 points recoil comp, more than enough for the full auto burst. Anti-tank rounds puts this at -9 AP, and a narrow full burst (as that concealment grants surprise) puts the DV up to 18. Give the guy Heavy Weapons 6 with a Machine Gun specialization and he gets to take 3 Take Aim actions first, netting an extra +3. Let's say 7 Agility, so with the bonuses added up we're at 20 dice to hit him with - and due to surprise, he gets no defence. Should generate around 6-7 net hits without any Edge, so that's up to ~25 damage. He gets to soak with 31 dice, generating an expected 10 hits. Even if he has the Augmented max for his Body, that will just about kill him in one IP - depending on how the dice actually go, it might make him a greasy smear. If it doesn't, you've got next round.
That said, that much done just to kill him implies either that he has done monumentally stupid things to piss the wrong people off in character, or you're being vindictive. If the character's causing you issues, talk to him about it.
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Throw them out the window (or blow the entire floor up...) Falling damage is really... quiet bad.
Or talk to him and make sure he hasnt built a boring one trick pony.
Levitate is great, that way.
I use it for a 'Pinball' effect, where I keep smashing them into things, dealing (Movement Speed / IPs) per hit.
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i just thought about using a ares screech rifle, it bypasses armor and attacks will, sounds like the weak link to me.....were were u guys on that one
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^ Good catch.
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I'd say use the noticeably decked out for war look against him.
Just my guess is he's not using public transportation or walking in this, but who knows. If he is this idea can be easily adapted. Anyhow, have him get pulled over for a regular old DWT (Driving While Troll). If he's not wearing the armor at this time make sure the cop searches the vehicle under some pretense (not sure of the real laws in 2070s, could be real, could be tromped up). This will present a couple of likely scenarios:
1) He'll try to fight his way out.
Not the smartest move but totally possible. Course, the problem with LEOs aren't that each officer is super tough, it's that there's so many of them. Because this is a possibility I'd say be sure there are two officers, one approaching and another in the police vehicle. This makes it so that attacking and killing both in one move is harder and it's easier for one of the officers to call it in. Once called in, turn it into a major big deal. Cops chasing through the city for half the day, multiple hiding places, etc. Keep them on him until he gives up on the run, maybe even then some. This ought to give him and his armor a good old bit of notoriety. This whole scenario is a totally realistic response to attacking the police and reasonable in my opinion.
2) When in doubt, bribe your way out.
Much smarter, much more likely to work get him to his job. But will depend on just how much contraband he's got and how much he's willing to pay. The cop ought to look at this like a total payday. Either the player pays a bunch, or he brings in a troll with a ton of expensive contraband, and anyone with this much gear is likely a runner who's got a record somewhere and a rep... this is the arrest that could get him promoted to detective, so the bribe would have to be heafty to give that up. He can come out and even say all this even to our troll.
Best part is, if the player successfully bribes, you can have the cop show up again the next time, looking like he expects our troll. Why wouldn't he try to milk this?
3) He lets himself get brought in.
Very unlikely. Not so much because the consequences are the worst, but because players usually percieve it to be the worst and will do just anything to not get caught even when they weren't doing anything that serious.
Anyhow, if this happens then anything that there isn't the proper licensing for gets taken, he gets fines or worse depending on the item, and perhaps an item or two that he does have all the legal papers for "Gets lost in processing. So sorry. If you'd like to file a complaint please fill out form ....." yeah. The whole process should take him hours (Story time, not playtime. Who wants to roleplay that for 4 hours?).
And there are a ton of other things you can do too. You don't need to challenge him in a fight, sometimes you just need to remove or control him during a fight. I've had a sword wielding tank with Arcane Arrestor defeated by a mage casting levitate on him, and just holding him in place while the mage walked away dismissively. That sort of thing works too.
Anyhow, the goal being to annoy(character, not player) and show that being a walking tank just doesn't work so great in the real world, while still giving the player some freedom to choose how they react and what happens.
Course, this is only after you've talked to your player about being reasonable. That should be step one.
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Team of skilled snipers is the key to taking down any horribly unbalanced character. Make them aim for a minute or 12 combat rounds, and call a shot to bypass armor.
Alternatively, what's his helm like? That's right. BOOM HEADSHOT.
Barett has 9P -4AP, ADPS that and it's -8AP. Even with the mystic armor, some of that is going to get through. Oh, and headshots are plus 4P, so we're talking 13P -8AP. If you really want to frag him up, get them "prototype" rifles that have better stats.
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Zippo lighter works just fine, but in a pinch a bic will do.
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Team of skilled snipers is the key to taking down any horribly unbalanced character. Make them aim for a minute or 12 combat rounds, and call a shot to bypass armor.
Alternatively, what's his helm like? That's right. BOOM HEADSHOT.
Barett has 9P -4AP, ADPS that and it's -8AP. Even with the mystic armor, some of that is going to get through. Oh, and headshots are plus 4P, so we're talking 13P -8AP. If you really want to frag him up, get them "prototype" rifles that have better stats.
Incorrect. You can call a shot to bypass armor OR add DV not both. If you could do both, it would specifically state that you can. (One other issue with this is that THERE ARE NO HIT LOCATIONS)
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I think he is alluding to the conceit that the bonus damage is targetting vitals (head, heart, stuff like that). And he's not talking about called shots to bypass armor in the same action as the called shot for damage. Look again, the weapon is doing the -8 AP for the shot for bonus damage. The armor bypassing hit is in regards to a different circumstance.
However, one can't aim for 12 rounds and get the benefit. A character can only benefit from 1/2 of his skill in the weapon (rounded down) of Take Aim simple actions (SR4A pg 148). While not entirely accurate, I get the gist of what Inconnu is saying. No big.
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Read:Team of SKILLED snipers. We're talking longarms(sniper) 6(8).
And yes, i was assuming that called shots to raise DV were to vulnerable areas. Helms generally aren't very good impact or ballistic, so the mystic armor loses some of the physical armor backing it up.
Course, it's a bit of a houserule, but at least it's one with a good basing.
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With longarms 6, that's still only 3 simple actions for aiming, for a +3 die bonus.
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Unless you count the specialization.
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Which gives one extra die, maybe?
That's still not significant compared to the negative modifiers (we are talking -12 and worse, probably -20). Just call for damage, spend the Edge (or Team Rating) and pop the guy. Remember, if the die pool drops to 0 or less, Edge expenditure treats it as starting from 0. So the shooter will always have some dice to roll.
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Have a few mooks unload on him first with submachine guns. This will reduce his defensive dicepool and give the snipers an even better edge. Throw in the APDS rounds...
And maybe a mage with a break armour speel or something.
And an Toxic Acid Elemental... ohhh....
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Remember, if the PC is being a pain to a corp, eventually said corp will go gunning for her/him. Given that the corp has thousands of times more resources than the PC, and it gets ugly very fast.
As long as the PC isn't being an idiot about it, he should be able to help his team out a lot. If he abuses it (in setting, not game mechanics-wise) then the chance of cheesing off someone with the ability to neuter the character becomes very high.
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Which gives one extra die, maybe?
That's still not significant compared to the negative modifiers (we are talking -12 and worse, probably -20). Just call for damage, spend the Edge (or Team Rating) and pop the guy. Remember, if the die pool drops to 0 or less, Edge expenditure treats it as starting from 0. So the shooter will always have some dice to roll.
Which is why you never piss off Mr. Lucky... guy will always have at least 8 dice to throw to shoot you where it hurts. ;D
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Geez, you people really want to haul in the super-skillers. For every one of those top-notch snipers (skill 6, speciality +2), I bet you yon corporation has forty standard mooks.
With grenades.
Chunky salsa, anyone?
Seriously - look at this as the problem confronted by Tucker's Kobolds, and use the same techniques. A PC can defend against single attacks, even many single attacks; it's the environment (and uncaring AoE attacks) that he'll get screwed over by. Blast him off a ledge; blow him into the water. Hit his area with a chemical attack, or a fire attack, or very nearly anything that doesn't attack him directly, and he'll very soon be crying for his mother to come bail him out. In fact, get his mother ...
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Geez, you people really want to haul in the super-skillers. For every one of those top-notch snipers (skill 6, speciality +2), I bet you yon corporation has forty standard mooks.
With grenades.
Chunky salsa, anyone?
I do believe I mentioned High Velocity grenade launchers. With Gecko Grenades. Why waste 40 mooks (by which I mean the money to send and outfit 40 mooks) when you can send 1 with the right firearm?
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Because your R&D on your HV Grenade Launcher is going to cost you more than just equipping all your guys with three or four grenades. Why bother with another ultra-tech item that you're going to have to do research for, that's going to cost you a bunch of cash, and that you aren't going to want to give to anyone but a couple of guys?
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Because your R&D on your HV Grenade Launcher is going to cost you more than just equipping all your guys with three or four grenades. Why bother with another ultra-tech item that you're going to have to do research for, that's going to cost you a bunch of cash, and that you aren't going to want to give to anyone but a couple of guys?
Or, you know, you could just use a good ol' ITS Gonryu.
It's not HV, but it is Full Auto... essentially the 2070s version of the real-world Mk-19.
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Full-auto White Phosphorus grenades will ruin anyone's day. Especially with an airburst link.
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Wilhelm Petrovich, my good friend!!
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Because your R&D on your HV Grenade Launcher is going to cost you more than just equipping all your guys with three or four grenades. Why bother with another ultra-tech item that you're going to have to do research for, that's going to cost you a bunch of cash, and that you aren't going to want to give to anyone but a couple of guys?
One assumes they'd want to sell it to militaries, or start to equip their own people with it to stop other such attackers. Plus, one can never forget the value of more explosive.
Might be the single worst part of getting Ares trying to kill you - they get the perfect chance to test new gear. "Guy's decked out in military gear? Great! Get the acid rockets and the magnesium darts, we might not get a chance like this again!"
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I would first like to know whether you are actively trying to kill his character for good or just getting rid of some of his gear.
In the former case, having him falling (either from a building or a plane) would make his armor pretty useless. Making him swim would also force him to let go of his military armor. Without the armor, he's gonna have a bad time. Simply parting him from his arcane arrestor would give mages an edge against him again. The best way to put him down permanently will be with unconventional weaponry (fire/heat, extreme cold, electricity, pressure, poison gas, etc).
If you just want to part him his gear, using sonic weaponry will do wonders, like you found out. Also, like Tagz noted here (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=9530.msg168773#msg168773), having some routine patrol pull him over should do the trick too.
RHat also noted (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=9530.msg168713#msg168713) that his cyberware can be vulnerable, if he's using any.
Here, I would suggest that you trick him into a work, something along these lines:
- Call him for an exclusive job (bodyguard some VIP, for instance)
- Ask him to meet the target in a room (or make him wait in said room for whatever other reason)
- Seal the room and put him to sleep with gas or crank up/down the heat
- Tell him that he'll only live by stripping naked and putting all his stuff in a box
- Special team enters, gets the box and knocks him out
- He awakens with a message: "Next time, I won't be so kind to you -Villain McEvil"
You could put the whole group there just for extra evilish fun.
Then again, more of his backstory would help to brew the exact way to put him back with his char naked. What corps has he run against? What enemies could be well aware of him as a dangerous enemy? Who could be actively hunting him down?
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Here, I would suggest that you trick him into a work, something along these lines:
- Call him for an exclusive job (bodyguard some VIP, for instance)
- Ask him to meet the target in a room (or make him wait in said room for whatever other reason)
- Seal the room and put him to sleep with gas or crank up/down the heat
- Tell him that he'll only live by stripping naked and putting all his stuff in a box
- Special team enters, gets the box and knocks him out
- He awakens with a message: "Next time, I won't be so kind to you -Villain McEvil"
You could put the whole group there just for extra evilish fun.
Then again, more of his backstory would help to brew the exact way to put him back with his char naked. What corps has he run against? What enemies could be well aware of him as a dangerous enemy? Who could be actively hunting him down?
... That would be a Bad Move. Primarily because it violates the DBAD Principle.
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I would first like to know whether you are actively trying to kill his character for good or just getting rid of some of his gear.
In the former case, having him falling (either from a building or a plane) would make his armor pretty useless. Making him swim would also force him to let go of his military armor. Without the armor, he's gonna have a bad time. Simply parting him from his arcane arrestor would give mages an edge against him again. The best way to put him down permanently will be with unconventional weaponry (fire/heat, extreme cold, electricity, pressure, poison gas, etc).
If you just want to part him his gear, using sonic weaponry will do wonders, like you found out. Also, like Tagz noted here (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=9530.msg168773#msg168773), having some routine patrol pull him over should do the trick too.
RHat also noted (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=9530.msg168713#msg168713) that his cyberware can be vulnerable, if he's using any.
Here, I would suggest that you trick him into a work, something along these lines:
- Call him for an exclusive job (bodyguard some VIP, for instance)
- Ask him to meet the target in a room (or make him wait in said room for whatever other reason)
- Seal the room and put him to sleep with gas or crank up/down the heat
- Tell him that he'll only live by stripping naked and putting all his stuff in a box
- Special team enters, gets the box and knocks him out
- He awakens with a message: "Next time, I won't be so kind to you -Villain McEvil"
You could put the whole group there just for extra evilish fun.
Then again, more of his backstory would help to brew the exact way to put him back with his char naked. What corps has he run against? What enemies could be well aware of him as a dangerous enemy? Who could be actively hunting him down?
"Simply parting him from his arcane arrestor would give mages an edge against him again"
You do realize that arcane arrester is a character quality and not a piece of equipment right? That part of you of your suggestion makes about as much sense as saying "This guy is really tough because he's a troll... F only we could find some way to take the fact that he is a troll away from him......"
Also, taking away items from players without giving them anything back or a chance to get them back later in the mission is the height of being a dickish GM would you suggest stealing a mages focuses if they were getting too powerful as well?
Also why are your npcs being such idiots that they are shooting at the huge cybered up troll in the first place? If the group Mage is using magic armor on him then it means they are sustaining one more spell that can not be used to keep themselves alive and unperffereated by bullets. Target the rest of the party first and try to kill them. Gank the Mage, and the troll will loose his magic armor and any counter spelling he had that will make him much easier to take down.
You can solve this problem by working around it rather than having to find a way to punish a character for doing their job (a street samurai should be big strong and tough in exchange for which they do not have magic, and can not hack )
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My bad, i'm still learning my way through Shadowrun, so I still don't have all qualities and gear and whatnot memorized.
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I find that few things are as nasty as applying the rules for overlapping grenades combined with the chunky salsa rules.
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Why is the Corp he`s cheesed off going after him in person? I mean, isn`t that what shadowrunners are for? 8) Get a runner to seduce him and have him wake up without his wang and a small note gekko taped to his chest. Don`t Do It Again Love Ares.
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My bad, i'm still learning my way through Shadowrun, so I still don't have all qualities and gear and whatnot memorized.
Which is fine for the mistake on the quality. However, the plan you outlined is the sort of thing that reeks of a DM just trying to punish a player for petty purposes. It provides him no real opportunity to avoid this and isn't a sensible result of his in-game actions - whereas corp strike teams and similar very well could be.
The OP has asked how to challenge this PC, which is not something your suggestion does. If the question was "how do I take his stuff away", your answer would be technically correct; however, the true answer would be "Don't".
If something happens to a player's character because the GM has just decided it is going to happen and the players have no true opportunity to resist, that is a bad thing.
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I would first like to know whether you are actively trying to kill his character for good or just getting rid of some of his gear.
In the former case, having him falling (either from a building or a plane) would make his armor pretty useless. Making him swim would also force him to let go of his military armor. Without the armor, he's gonna have a bad time. Simply parting him from his arcane arrestor would give mages an edge against him again. The best way to put him down permanently will be with unconventional weaponry (fire/heat, extreme cold, electricity, pressure, poison gas, etc).
If you just want to part him his gear, using sonic weaponry will do wonders, like you found out. Also, like Tagz noted here (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=9530.msg168773#msg168773), having some routine patrol pull him over should do the trick too.
RHat also noted (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=9530.msg168713#msg168713) that his cyberware can be vulnerable, if he's using any.
Here, I would suggest that you trick him into a work, something along these lines:
- Call him for an exclusive job (bodyguard some VIP, for instance)
- Ask him to meet the target in a room (or make him wait in said room for whatever other reason)
- Seal the room and put him to sleep with gas or crank up/down the heat
- Tell him that he'll only live by stripping naked and putting all his stuff in a box
- Special team enters, gets the box and knocks him out
- He awakens with a message: "Next time, I won't be so kind to you -Villain McEvil"
You could put the whole group there just for extra evilish fun.
Then again, more of his backstory would help to brew the exact way to put him back with his char naked. What corps has he run against? What enemies could be well aware of him as a dangerous enemy? Who could be actively hunting him down?
Doing this drek is a good way to lose all your players and might just get you hit, depending on who it was done to.
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I still think the best answer is to talk to him.
I mean everyone has had some fun coming up 101 ideas to kills him, showing pretty much that heavy armour does not make a character a good/effective shadowrunner.
Most major league bad guys are not going to be scared by some lone loon in heavy armor. They can just call the cops and Lone Star will take him down. Maybe not the street officers, but the HRT with magic back up, spirits, numerious snipers, heavy weapons experts etc? It will be messy, but he will go down. And then thats the end of his story. Even if his not killed, his bound to attract too much attention, making him to hot to do business with.
Basically, combat orientated one-trick ponies are pretty limited when it comes to anything but a major fight... but then again, if your campaign is pink mowhawk, this character probably rocks. It will come down to the style of the campaign.
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Yeah, talking to him is best.
All-in-all, it sounds to me that this is what he enjoys, and the question is more of an attempt at getting ideas for "teaching him the 'right' way to have fun".
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I think the biggest weakness of military armor is the same weakness that a gyro-mounted machine gun or an assault cannon has. Namely, that walking around with any of those things on the streets of a city will get paramilitary assets mobilized against you. I mean, a shadowrunner can walk around in semi-obvious armor such as armored jackets, and carry concealed weapons with fake licences and concealed carry permits, in most places. But articulated military armor? No. It is really only useful in situations such as mercenary engagements, assaults on extraterritorial corporate compounds, and utterly lawless areas such as the Barrens (although in the latter, such gear will attract undue attention from both the gangs and would-be thieves).
I think going out of your way to damage or destroy his armor would be kind of dickish. But letting him where it everywhere is being too permissive. The presence of dragons and magic, and a society that is more fractured than ours, notwithstanding, the game world should still follow some logical rules. Imagine the reaction someone would get today if they were walking around in miltech body armor. Unless you're Phoenix Jones, that just won't fly.
I would let your entire group know that you will be trying to give the everyday world of the 2070's a bit more verisimilitude, so things like wearing body armor to go get a latte, or taking your Barrett sniper rifle onto the subway, will have more consequences in the future.
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So..is the wireless on his armour enabled? If not: activator Nanites. Now, you basicly turn off the air-filtration
on his suit, and hit him with neurostun gas grenades.
Does his armour or him have sound dampers? Barghests as para-security.
Fight in close quarters on top of an elevator where he is having to provide cover while the group's hacker
tries to stop the enemy Spider from disabling the safeties, brakes, etc on the elevator...
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You set the conditions of the shadowruns. A character being nearly invincible is only useful as you make it. You can give characters with social skills the chance to shine by having missions where it's difficult to sneak in even a heavy pistol, much less military grade armor. In missions like this, even just appearing vaguely like a normal is a huge advantage to the shadowrunner. Alternatively, you can purposely cater to the tank with a Tarantino fest, or mix and match.
Shadowrunners are all extremely vulnerable due to who they know. Contacts are pretty much their most useful asset and there is just no way to protect them all 24/7, even if you wanted to. And even if you have a hardheaded runner willing to let his contacts all be iced, this is a team game, and the team would almost certainly be upset if their contacts were being kidnapped or leaned on.Of course, it really shouldn't even have to get that far if you are talking to your players.
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Having him go against mages or spirits where his Armor is useless would be a good idea.
Have a run go bad because he was noticed in military grade Armor. (The scientist they were hired to get evacuates the building instead of staying put)
Have the organization that he got the Armor from come after him. A nice explosion as he gets in his car. (just don't kill him. Hurt him bad and maybe destroy the armor)
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Having him go against mages or spirits where his Armor is useless would be a good idea.
Have a run go bad because he was noticed in military grade Armor. (The scientist they were hired to get evacuates the building instead of staying put)
Have the organization that he got the Armor from come after him. A nice explosion as he gets in his car. (just don't kill him. Hurt him bad and maybe destroy the armor)
On the last suggestion, once again, would you suggest destroying a mages foci if you felt a particular combat Mage was over powered in your game?
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On the last suggestion, once again, would you suggest destroying a mages foci if you felt a particular combat Mage was over powered in your game?
Not destroying outright - I would use it as a plot hook, some Johnson got wind that said 'Runner is using an Artifact of tremendous power (even though it's a +3 Power focus from Bob's magic galleria) and went off running with the idea and has it "acquired"
But to bring it back on-topic, I'm in the "talk to him" camp. Playing the Vindictive GM is a surefire way to stop GMing games for lack of players.
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Have the organization that he got the Armor from come after him. A nice explosion as he gets in his car. (just don't kill him. Hurt him bad and maybe destroy the armor)
On the last suggestion, once again, would you suggest destroying a mages foci if you felt a particular combat Mage was over powered in your game?
Y'know, this I really seriously don't get. This isn't the HERO System, where points gained are meant to be your points forever, (and even then, within certain strictures); this isn't ... y'know, I don't know of any other examples similar to that. Every other system I've gamed in, if there's an object or item, even one you spent weeks and months and years slaving over, spending XP/Karma on to create or bind to you, by the very nature of the system and the game it can be destroyed. I don't care if you 'bought it with BP'; should your ammo be expected to never be expended because you bought it with the money you bought with your build-points at the very beginning of the game?
No. Every toy your character might have, from the Eye of Vecna to the Arrow of Red Dragon Slaying to Iron Man power armor to a powerful magic focus that a mage spent karma to bond, is an item, toy, object, or gizmo that can be taken away. Yes, a player has a right to feel picked on if s/he's the only one whose favorite toys keep getting wrecked - or, very possibly, the player should look at how they're playing, to expose those items to danger out of proportion. Yes, the GM should take the player aside if a particular something is proving to provide an overwhelming advantage; see link in my .sig to a statement about what game balance means in Shadowrun terms.
But would I suggest the destruction of an item that's turing the game into 'MyCharacterRun'? Hell, yes. I would suggest the destruction of any and every piece of equipment the opposition could (and here's the key term) reasonably get their hands on, if that's what told the story better. Hell, as I recall in one of the your-opponent-is-Blackwing adventures one of the PCs is meant to walk into their own home to find one of Blackwing's associates watching TV - and then at the end of a short 'leave it alone' speech, clicking a remote that blows up that PC's vehicle. Never mind if the PC spent months building it themselves, modding it, spending tens or hundreds of thousands of nuyen on it; the vehicle gets blown up. Period.
Toys, even cyberware, are there to make the character's job easier. Their removal can be, and the possibility of their removal should be, an integral part of the storytelling that the Game Master is engaged in with the players.
And before All4BigGuns wades in and says, 'I'm in control of my character!!' - yes, yes you are. Your choice of skills; your choice of what actions you attempt. Your choice of what your character says or tries to say; see the conversation about 'high CHA skill player, low CHA skill character' and vice-versa. But the player directs their character, and their character only. It is the GM's responsibility and right to direct all the rest of the game world, with certain exceptions as described by rules for combat, skill use, etc. It is also the GM's responsibility to use that direction to tell a good, if not great, story; players whose characters serve as punching bags for the GM -- and here's the key part -- without commeasurate growth of their character do indeed deserve to throw things at the GM, vote the GM out, walk away from the table, etc. If, every time your house gets blown up and sixteen squads of pissed-off Ancients comes a-hunting for your character Bubba the Love Troll, you manage to survive, gain vengeance for your house, get a better one, and improve your reputation, well - you really don't have any real reason to bitch, do you?
Stuff exists to be used by the PC. If it's abused by the PC, then taking it away is a right, responsibility, and requirement for the GM. Just because you got a lightsaber doesn't mean Vader can't slice your hand off and make you build a new one.
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Having him go against mages or spirits where his Armor is useless would be a good idea.
Have a run go bad because he was noticed in military grade Armor. (The scientist they were hired to get evacuates the building instead of staying put)
Have the organization that he got the Armor from come after him. A nice explosion as he gets in his car. (just don't kill him. Hurt him bad and maybe destroy the armor)
On the last suggestion, once again, would you suggest destroying a mages foci if you felt a particular combat Mage was over powered in your game?
I would very much make it a part of the story and give the PC every hint/chance to notice something is off. Like I said maybe destroy the armor. It really depends on how bad it is wrecking the game. Still could make for a nice run for him getting revenge/a new piece of armor
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Character's stuff should not have plot protection - hell, characters themselves can get maimed in the gritty world of Shadowrun. But it's one thing for it to happen during the normal course of play, and another thing for it to happen because the GM is being a prick and deliberately targeting the character's stuff. If there is a problem with game balance, the GM should let the player re-work the character, rather than "balancing" things by maiming the character or taking away his stuff by GM fiat.
Honestly, military armor is a bad idea in most campaigns. It is conspicuous as hell, it is blatantly linked to you because it has to be custom-made for you ("If the breastplate fits, we will not acquit!"), and it invites escalation - and unfortunately, the way damage scales in Shadowrun, anything powerful enough to punch through military armor will also likely be powerful enough to outright kill the character. Not to mention that you need the restricted gear quality, twice, to start out with it.
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Why twice?
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Why twice?
Once for the armour, once for the helmet, I am guessing.
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and unfortunately, the way damage scales in Shadowrun, anything powerful enough to punch through military armor will also likely be powerful enough to outright kill the character
On the subject of escalation. The real danger isn't necessarily killing the problem PC. Many GMs have a tendency to adapt to a group's strengths in order to challenge them better. It's an easy mistake to make in Shadowrun to up the firepower on the badguys in various ways and geek all the glass cannons that are the rest of the Shadowrunner group.
And yes, if you do simply kill the PC, or take the armor or whatever gizmo, you risk your reputation among your players being ruined. The players are already aware that you can do whatever you want to their characters and reminding them of this forcefully does not instill trust in you as a GM. Talking to the player or showing how the armor is a disadvantage in the SR world are better alternatives. Limiting availability is another "soft" option, as opposed to options that involve forcefully neutering the character in various ways.
There are good reasons to take items away from players, but this should not be confused with GM stealing items to maintain play balance. It's a whole other thing and it relies on group play styles and tastes. One, the GM might steal an item as a way to set off a series of adventures. It's a great way to make a player very interested in the outcome of the game if their item is at stake. Two, it's a great way to paint the gritty nature of the world to have master thieves out there who boost and sell high end gear. This second option in particular is heavily based on the tastes of your players though. Many players out there are of the school of thought that their gear should never be taken and you really need to know what kind of players you have before attempting this kind of thing.
It's all about your motives for taking the item, because the players will certainly know why you're doing it if you are doing it to neuter a powerful character.
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"Time to retire your character." (I don't wanna) "Okay, its been nice gaming with you. The door's to your left on the way out."
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I am curious: how does he get away with wearing the armour while being serving staff at a formal dinner?
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"Good evening. My name is Starscream, and I'll be your waiter this evening."
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Hahah, that sounds like one of those high skill social adept feats you were talking about, Glyph. These are not the droids you are looking for.
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You could explore the use of Nanotech it is found in Augmentation if you have a copy
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"This is not the high-spec milgrade armor you've been looking for." ;)
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Challenge the player with heavy artillery and anti-vehicle weapons, alot of them if necesary. I'm not sure if 4th as rules for armor degradation but you could use those or implement custom ones, which could make the character think twice about wearing the armor everywhere once he needs to get the funds and the contacts to have the armor repaired.
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Challenge the player with heavy artillery and anti-vehicle weapons, alot of them if necesary. I'm not sure if 4th as rules for armor degradation but you could use those or implement custom ones, which could make the character think twice about wearing the armor everywhere once he needs to get the funds and the contacts to have the armor repaired.
Seriously: why go that route? Why not give him jobs where wearing the armour is not a good idea?
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Challenge the player with heavy artillery and anti-vehicle weapons, alot of them if necesary. I'm not sure if 4th as rules for armor degradation but you could use those or implement custom ones, which could make the character think twice about wearing the armor everywhere once he needs to get the funds and the contacts to have the armor repaired.
Seriously: why go that route? Why not give him jobs where wearing the armour is not a good idea?
I may have read too much into it, and left a fair bit unspoken. If the player isn't wearing the armor obviously don't go with the heavy artillery, but it seems the character wears it somewhat regularly even in situations that it is uncalled for. I may be wrong, but I think if it was a simple matter of giving the team a job that requires subtltey the OP wouldn't have had to ask the question. I'm guessing the character takes the subtltey jobs and makes them not so subtle. Again I might be reading into it too much.
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Challenge the player with heavy artillery and anti-vehicle weapons, alot of them if necesary. I'm not sure if 4th as rules for armor degradation but you could use those or implement custom ones, which could make the character think twice about wearing the armor everywhere once he needs to get the funds and the contacts to have the armor repaired.
Seriously: why go that route? Why not give him jobs where wearing the armour is not a good idea?
I may have read too much into it, and left a fair bit unspoken. If the player isn't wearing the armor obviously don't go with the heavy artillery, but it seems the character wears it somewhat regularly even in situations that it is uncalled for. I may be wrong, but I think if it was a simple matter of giving the team a job that requires subtltey the OP wouldn't have had to ask the question. I'm guessing the character takes the subtltey jobs and makes them not so subtle. Again I might be reading into it too much.
Which is why the Johnson could, as I have done, offer the payment...but put a penalty per person killed, or even a "You got INTO combat penalty." Or, the Johnson is hiring the team to extract someone during a charity event, and already has the credentials for the party prepared(either as serving staff or guests). That the OP did not mention trying such methods,
to me, means that he might not have thought of them...
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Challenge the player with heavy artillery and anti-vehicle weapons, alot of them if necesary. I'm not sure if 4th as rules for armor degradation but you could use those or implement custom ones, which could make the character think twice about wearing the armor everywhere once he needs to get the funds and the contacts to have the armor repaired.
Seriously: why go that route? Why not give him jobs where wearing the armour is not a good idea?
I may have read too much into it, and left a fair bit unspoken. If the player isn't wearing the armor obviously don't go with the heavy artillery, but it seems the character wears it somewhat regularly even in situations that it is uncalled for. I may be wrong, but I think if it was a simple matter of giving the team a job that requires subtltey the OP wouldn't have had to ask the question. I'm guessing the character takes the subtltey jobs and makes them not so subtle. Again I might be reading into it too much.
Which is why the Johnson could, as I have done, offer the payment...but put a penalty per person killed, or even a "You got INTO combat penalty." Or, the Johnson is hiring the team to extract someone during a charity event, and already has the credentials for the party prepared(either as serving staff or guests). That the OP did not mention trying such methods,
to me, means that he might not have thought of them...
Fair enough, we both assumed something different, the OP has a multitude of options to choose from in any case, whatever the exact situation they are in.
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So i have a PC who has munchkined the hell out of his character, i try not to second guess their build but his character has destroyed every challenge i have thrown. He is a troll w pimped out military armor and all the fixings, w mystic armor his total armor comes to over 40/40. His attacks and str are ridiculous and he has arcane arrestor so mages have a hell of a time affecting him (they usaly don't get a chance w his adrenaline surge). Tranq darts dont work due to military armor, and with the party nothing last much longer than one round. Any advise to challenge this PC?
Before trying to answer, it would be good to know what your other players think and you what do you think.
A. Is this troll ruining your games?
B. Are you all having fun?
If a is the answer, then sure follow all the suggestions. Make his life hard, he will enjoy it. I hope.
If the answer is b, chat with him and may be retire this over powerful character.
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you could also make him roll perception rolls whenever he goes near anything remotely dangerous but only if you're clumsy. Reason:Having more than agi*5(he does right?) armor makes you clumsy.ci dont care how srong you are. Point-cincher:Wear 2 pairs of gloves while typing the response to this. It's not a strength issue, is it?
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what do the other players think? Do they enjoy having a very potent team member? Do they feel useless next to him?
Are there any socially potent team members? If so, design some socially focused runs, with the troll being hired as when-hell-brakes-loose backup. As long as the team doesn't mess it up, he'll be sitting that one out :D
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Set up a scenario where the players must be on an aircraft then drop the character from a moving plane through "circumstance". If he survives, he can keep his character.
Problem solved.
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Honestly, the first step would be to sit down with the player and explain what you perceive the problem to be. A lot of time a simple conversation about expected power levels will let you come to a mutually satisfactory solution
A million points to Crunch for going to the source behind the issue. At least assuming that you didn't want a character like this when you okay'd it in character creation - but Mirikon's already said what I was going to regarding that.
3. Knock him into water, forcing him to exit his suit
4. Attack him when he's not wearing his armor. If he always gets to use it, I think you're not challenging him enough
6. Similar opposition in terms of damage resistance
7. Try to get the group split up and get him to duel someone of equal or greater power
Assuming that you did want a supertank character like this, these are some very good ways to deal with a main battle troll. Having a rival or something (such as I emphasized) can be an interesting way to challenge the character, often without having to wipe out the party just to threaten him.
I've had a sword wielding tank with Arcane Arrestor defeated by a mage casting levitate on him, and just holding him in place while the mage walked away dismissively.
I think that's a really interesting way of handling a tank. It's a confrontation that doesn't entirely bypass the character's strengths, but still shows some of the limitations of what putting that much dice in only one thing would necessarily leave.
Might be the single worst part of getting Ares trying to kill you - they get the perfect chance to test new gear. "Guy's decked out in military gear? Great! Get the acid rockets and the magnesium darts, we might not get a chance like this again!"
You sir are a spiteful, cruel, and awesome individual. I tip my hat to you.
Mirikon's phone book method and Kat9 have already gone over options if this character is making you (and quite possibly the other players) not enjoy the game. If everybody's having fun, then take a few minutes to step back and wonder if this character needs to bleed, or if it fits in the setting you've created and remembering that combat is one of many aspects of Shadowrun should be plenty. Taking the player aside and having a conversation if you're still not sure is of course always recommended.
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Such a powerful individual won't go unnoticed amongst runners, corporations and syndicates...
He should have a high Street Cred and Public Awareness by now, and maybe a dash of Notoriety if he has been particularly blood-thirsty in resolving missions. Apart from having pissed off a few organisations, there will be as many more who see the character as the perfect tool to use in that mission that has so far killed their own highly trained teams. Convincing the PC won't take much, just a dose of nerve toxin with a regular antidote required or maybe a bit of override coding in his cybergear or similar so that when the organisation makes him an offer, there is no choice but to accept.
He will become a mercenary for a particular organisation and while they'll let him continue his everyday life, there are times when his particular skillset is required and the leash will be yanked to make him comply. Whatever the mission will be, it'll be dirty, bloody and a damn sight more dangerous than just running the streets. Unless of course, his particular abilities are no longer quite as useful as they once were...
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in which case they are suddenly expendable.
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if everyone is alright with the character but you need a reason to amp up the encounters well still being fair consider this.
A fixer is going to hand out jobs that play to a teams strengths a failed job gets nobody paid so that team may start getting jobs that fall on the fringes of Merc work this would be a reasonable place for the team to encounter Main Battle Tanks, Infantry Fighting Vehicles and LAVs. In this case Uber troll can shoot it out with the army while the rest of the team gets the job done, then everyone feels valuable.
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Unless the fixer is paid to make SURE they don't succeed.
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I would recommend against things like cranial bombs, toxins with the antidote held hostage, and such. They can occasionally be part of a story where the PC tries to get out from under the organization's thumb, but most of the time, it is a GM power trip that can lead to the group quitting in disgust. It adds nothing to the enjoyment of the game, and it isn't even necessary. The PCs are freelance saboteurs, mercenaries, and spies, and the GM controls who offers them jobs, what kind of jobs they are, and what they get paid. The GM shouldn't need any more control over the characters on top of that.
Too many suggestions here seem to be treating it as an exercise in finding the most unfair way to "punish" the character with inescapable maiming or death. Even if it works, it sends the wrong message. You don't want the player to think "Hmm, I guess my next tank needs to be even tougher, since the last one got killed so easily."
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Too many suggestions here seem to be treating it as an exercise in finding the most unfair way to "punish" the character with inescapable maiming or death. Even if it works, it sends the wrong message. You don't want the player to think "Hmm, I guess my next tank needs to be even tougher, since the last one got killed so easily."
Yeah, the message he should get it "Specialization is for Insects." Diversity is how you survive in the Shadows, not being so specialized
that you literally cannot do anything outside of your specialty. Heck, even my group's Heavy Weapons Troll is looking at getting the
skills for basic hacking(since, well..Charisma wise? Face work just isn't going to cut it. And he rides in the turret.)
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Too many suggestions here seem to be treating it as an exercise in finding the most unfair way to "punish" the character with inescapable maiming or death. Even if it works, it sends the wrong message. You don't want the player to think "Hmm, I guess my next tank needs to be even tougher, since the last one got killed so easily."
I have to agree. I ran a game where a player had a similar over-bearing combat troll. He realized his folley when his fellow runners refused to let him come on a job because they were tired of Elite Units and APDS rounds flying around like water. Whats good for the goose...