Shadowrun
Off-topic => General Gaming => Topic started by: WellsIDidIt on <09-17-12/0155:39>
-
So I've been talking to a few old gaming buddies of mine and it's got me wondering how much is too much for most gaming groups. I've never been one to keep someone around that constantly grates on my nerves, much less the nerves of my other players, but it seems that a lot of gamers will put up with a rotten apple for a long time rather than tossing them out.
I'm not talking about little things like a disagreement over which is better a sword or scimitar, but large issues like: Disrespect the host, Yelling at other players, Overwhelming stench, etc.
What are you personal pet peeves, and when do they pick up to the point that someone has got to go.
Personally, I give everyone a second chance, but my biggest pet peeve is when someone kind enough to host the game is blatantly disrespected by another player. This is usually something as blatant as slamming the door after a disagreement, refusing to take off shoes, or being too lazy to pick up after oneself.
My other pet peeve is griping at other players. If the other players wanted to be griped at they'd pick up a second job or call their parents. They don't. They want to have fun. You've got your character to have fun with, they've got their character to have fun with. If a player is grouchy enough that the rest of the players aren't enjoying things, they've got to be tossed out.
-
To me, it really depends on the problem. Some things are "fuck you, you're gone" as far as I'm concerned (inappropriate comments or touching at a game, giving off a "vibe" that makes the gals at the game uncomfortable, certain types of comments or jokes, that sort of thing). I'm sure it happens more in LARPs than tabletop gaming, but there are some folks who get a little frisky with female gamers (or the wife of the GM, or someone's sister, or whoever the hell else is in range), and for that sort of shit? Yeah. It's "get out, take your stuff with you, don't come back," y'know? Likewise, if anyone were to get violent (or threaten to) over in-game issues, well, that's a way to make it clear they're just not compatible with our group and never will be.
More things are "shape up or you're gone," which basically has to be bad enough for the group to bitch to one another about you in the meantime (and reach a consensus), which realistically means it's got to be a problem for several weeks/sessions. These tend to be less severe interpersonal problems, or the in-game stuff. Those type of things -- hygiene issues, "creative" chargen or character advancement, repeatedly "misunderstanding" the rules of a game in your favor, "misreading" dice -- well, if the person is a social friend and not just a gamer we happen to be playing with...well, we've been known to cut a little slack, but have repeated conversations and make it clearer and clearer when a problem is becoming a problem. Basically once something has been a problem enough for more than one of us to notice it, it becomes a "second/last chance" situation, y'know?
-
I'd have to agree with Critas on this, with special emphasis on the fact that, unless it's something blatantly uber-creepy, the offending player should get an Official Warning before being kicked to the curb... with special emphasis on TALK TO THEM BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING PERMANENT, especially in the case of "attitude" problems.
Most of the time in situations where someone is being "rude" or "grumpy", especially if it's a change in a long-term player, the person won't even have realized they're doing it. Generally, assholes aside, it happens for one of two reasons: Either they've got a lot of stress in other areas of their life and it's "leaking", or something's made them unhappy with the game and they 1) haven't consciously realized it, 2) don't feel able to approach you about it, or 3) have been outright stating that they're not happy with the game, and you're about to be a massive douche by "firing" your player for it because he's "being disrespectful" rather than figuring out how to fix things.
Whatever the reason, though, common freakin' courtesy dictates that you should take them aside and tell them "Hey, your attitude's been really killing the mood for everyone lately. Like, bad enough I may have to do something neither of us is gonna like. What's going on, man? Everything kosher?" rather than just telling them "You're an asshole. GTFO." out of the blue.
... ... ...
And yes, the one time I've ever had anything like that happen to me was rather like that. I was extremely unhappy because in four separate campaigns, in three separate systems, the GM's Wife was always the star of the goddamn show. The tasks, the meta-plots, and the lion's share of the "down-time" narration were tailored to make her character the center of attention. EVERYTHING revolved around her characters' cutsey-wootsy little heads. Even NPCs and backgrounds that had been bought and paid-for by other players were twisted to be subordinate to her, or otherwise totally ignored.
I'm talking about a Frequency 6 Enemy, tied in with Nemesis, not getting mentioned once in a dozen sessions because he couldn't find some way to tie it in with his wife's story-line. Even me actively trying to run leg-work on the guy got nothing more than "he's busy with some project in Hong Kong," followed by spending an hour on his wife's solo-act street race.
Eventually I got fed up with it, and I told the GM I'm feeling like a second-rate extra in the GM's Wife Show, and I'm getting sick and tired of being shown up at every turn and generally feeling useless. Lo and behold, the next day I get a text saying that "we" had decided I was "extremely rude" and was "no longer invited to play".
-
TALK TO THEM BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING PERMANENT, especially in the case of "attitude" problems.
Most of the time in situations where someone is being "rude" or "grumpy", especially if it's a change in a long-term player, the person won't even have realized they're doing it. Generally, assholes aside, it happens for one of two reasons: Either they've got a lot of stress in other areas of their life and it's "leaking", or something's made them unhappy with the game and they 1) haven't consciously realized it, 2) don't feel able to approach you about it, or 3) have been outright stating that they're not happy with the game, and you're about to be a massive douche by "firing" your player for it because he's "being disrespectful" rather than figuring out how to fix things.
Whatever the reason, though, common freakin' courtesy dictates that you should take them aside and tell them "Hey, your attitude's been really killing the mood for everyone lately. Like, bad enough I may have to do something neither of us is gonna like. What's going on, man? Everything kosher?" rather than just telling them "You're an asshole. GTFO." out of the blue.
Agreed. Fortunately for us, my group and I have only encountered this once. A very good friend of ours (me, my wife, and my best friend) wanted to play with us in our home game and he just so happened to own the local gaming store. We are always looking to expand our gaming table, so we let him know when we got together and extended an official invite. He could never make it on time, and I mean 'never'. We either started late, or had to spend 30 minutes recapping to get him up to speed. I, as Gm at the time, spoke to him about the disruption this caused and that my other players were expressing their concerns about his punctuality. Theses were ignored. Strike one.
Another problem we had was that he wanted us to move our home game to his store to stir up interest for gaming in general. I was uncomfortable with this, but the others were all for it, so I sucked it up and we moved our game to his store (changing our play hours also). This was a big mistake. We had people come up and take our character sheets just to look at them, interrupt us while we were talking to ask us about our characters/games/favorite MMO's, and just be generally rude. I'm not talking about your generally curious people whom we were happy to talk to and explain a bit about the game. At any rate, we decided to move our game back to our original location (which just happened to be my house). He was upset because we moved the game back without a 'group discussion', (which we had by the way). Hissy fits ensue. Strike two.
The straw that broke the proverbial camel's back was when he started to make one of the player's uncomfortable. This player happened to be my wife. To avoid my knee-jerk reaction (boot him from the game with a sledge hammer), I spoke to the group both individually and together, explaining what was going on and asking the offending player if something was happening outside (or inside) the game to cause him to act in such a manner. He refused to believe that he was making her uncomfortable, even though all of us had seen it at one point or another, and going so far as call my wife some very inappropriate names. Strike three.
Unfortunately, our friendship was terminated with extreme prejudice (apparently we were persecuting him), and he was booted immediately from our game. Having talked to the guy on numerous occasions, I feel like 'I' did everything I could have to salvage both our friendship and the game, however, the name calling was way over the line.
At any rate, one should definitely address an issue before it gets too far by talking to the offending individual(s). If talking doesn't work, kick them to the curb. Just my two nuyen.
-
TALK TO THEM BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING PERMANENT, especially in the case of "attitude" problems.
Most of the time in situations where someone is being "rude" or "grumpy", especially if it's a change in a long-term player, the person won't even have realized they're doing it. Generally, assholes aside, it happens for one of two reasons: Either they've got a lot of stress in other areas of their life and it's "leaking", or something's made them unhappy with the game and they 1) haven't consciously realized it, 2) don't feel able to approach you about it, or 3) have been outright stating that they're not happy with the game, and you're about to be a massive douche by "firing" your player for it because he's "being disrespectful" rather than figuring out how to fix things.
Whatever the reason, though, common freakin' courtesy dictates that you should take them aside and tell them "Hey, your attitude's been really killing the mood for everyone lately. Like, bad enough I may have to do something neither of us is gonna like. What's going on, man? Everything kosher?" rather than just telling them "You're an asshole. GTFO." out of the blue.
I guess I'm on the other side of the fence. If I'm a dick to someone, I know it. If I smell skunky I know it. If I'm making someone uncomfortable, I know it. If I'm making a group of people unhappy, I know it. If I do nothing to fix it, that's on me, not on my GM for not playing guidance counselor to me. People get paid for that job.
Same token, I've got anger issues and I know it. If I'm GMing, especially at my home, I'm not going to take a problem player aside and risk him yelling at me and setting me off. I'll call the game early, tell them I'm too tired to deal with it tonight, and discuss options with the rest of the group before the next session. End of the day, I've never once seen a player get booted where they had no idea there was an issue. I've seen them willfully ignore it and make up every excuse in the book, but you can look them in the eye and tell they know.
I've got to ask though, how did the rest of your group feel? Did your play styles mesh? Do they game with you, or do they still game with the GM? Were there any warning signs at all? GM calling the game early ever? Other group members acting offended? Other group members snapping at you? Did the other players have their backstories tied in at all? Did you try to get in on the Roleplaying or did you remain a Combat Monkey? I guess the last question is probably the most important, but were you rude to the GM when you brought the issue up with him? More importantly, were you rude to his wife (far more important from the perspective of a married man) at all?
Not trying to be rude, but every single time I've ever seen someone complain about myself or another GM that plays with their wife, I hear this same issue pop up and it irks me the wrong way. Hell, I once had a guy try to tell me that my campaign was custom tailored to my wife when I was running a by the book Missions campaign. This guy powertweaked his character to the max and sat in the corner all night until combat started, then grumbled about not getting any face time, when during every RP scenario his actions ranged between sit in a corner and shoot it in the face.
If I'm off-base I'm sorry (and my rep score will probably drop like a lead brick), but if the rest of the group has, for lack of a better word, sided with your GM and didn't have an issue (your irritable tone makes it seem like the case), then maybe you should step back and take look number two at it. Get a hold of some of the other players and honest to god ask them what could have been done differently. I say this, because I can't imagine four campaigns worth of players sitting around for this and you being the only one with an issue to it. Maybe the other players can give you insight to fix things. Maybe a break will give time for things to cool off and you can make your way back into the group. Maybe you just don't mesh and another group will better benefit you. If nothing else, talking to the other players will let you know if it was a GM/Wife smiting or a whole group vote/unanimous decision.
-
*SNIP*
*REDACTED*
Responding to this one via PM, because I'm slightly irritated and I don't want FastJack's blood-pressure going up.
-
I'm fairly terrible at kicking people out of groups, on the other hand when I do it's generally something so egregious it's generally a "ya know what, don't come back." kind of thing. I try and be communicative and all that good stuff, but more or less once I build a gaming group it tends to stay in oen configuration or another for years on end so it's seldom an issue.
-
My area, we have a number of players that will come into our groups who are new at RPing in general.
We game at our FLGS, because....hey, it is good for the store. I have actually seen people get game books
after seeing us having a great time with a game(NOTE: we are a very informal group, and our story lines can get
into some twisted, convulted messes....because I like subtle plots, and I usually GM, but I have to keep newbies
viable, and deal with a player who is a combat monkey, as well as the phenomenal luck player, the shy kid who
is afraid to speak up because he thinks he might say something wrong, etc, etc...pretty much, the only thing our
group doesn't have, and not for lack of trying, is ladies.) Frankly, I have only ever had to have a serious talk with
a player ONCE. And, it wasn't that he, personally, was a problem. It was that he just would not pay attention to
what was happening in game, was chronicly late, or unpredicitable about when/if he would show up, and, finally,
the other players were complaining to me about being tired of having to constantly save him. And..I mean, even
in social settings like a bar...he almost got himself....well..worse then killed..He stumbled, with skill wire implants,
into a Bunraku parlour in game, where he fell for the sweet lines that got him drugged...(His character was female,
because, as a rule, we use random character gender and sex assignment in our games because some sorts of
stories just work better with female characters.) We basicly sat down, spoke the problems out to him, and...
he just stopped coming. We did not kick him out. We told him he is welcome to play, that he is a good kid, but
he needs to pay more attention, to try and learn the systems(in a d20 game, he kept asking what dice to roll
to do skill checks, saving throws, etc..In shadowrun, we literally had to tell him, multiple times over a COMBAT
how to build his dice pool)., and focus on the game, not what the magic players or yugi-oh players were doing.
Come to find out that he has been kicked out of several groups since leaving ours, for the same basic problems.
I feel sorry for the kid, as he was one of those sheltered kids, and I, personally, think there are depression issues
going...but...when you have to do two versions of the plan for every session: one for if he shows up, one for if he
doesn't, it gets bad, and everything else just got worse and worse from there....
-
only had this sort of thing really come up once.
we had a player with "a couple issues of varying types" including psychological and substances, good at making the munchkin characters, and playing them within his "normal parameters"
he basically decided he had been booted when character #4 died at the hand of the youngest player and the entire table said no to munchkin character #5.
how it happened: it was truly a lucky shot based off a horrible choice of words, "i walk out to the street and shoot the first person i see" *roll* "oh yeah, double crit!!" GM: random roll for who gets shot, party is 6, rolls a d10 to include NPC pedestrians, had each of us roll to see who was closest to his roll, player got really unlucky and shot between the eyes, then squished by the massive load of shite he was carrying assisted by the 4 Jedi in the party.
maybe the other part was when i passed a note to the gm immediately after he died (as soon as i can, i loot the body and his room) though he was already packing his stuff to go by that point. he had tried to whip out #5 for use and upon reading the sheet the GM laughed, "oh god NO! but you could ask them, if they say yes, then you can use this,,,,,, character."
-
It's highly dependent upon exactly what the problematic behavior is as to how much I'll put up with.
I play with some people who have very little ideas of the rules of games that they've been playing for years (I'll admit that I'm not overly up on some of the rules of new ones) which annoys me. I play with some people who have very little idea of how to make their characters effective
Both annoy me but I wouldn't kick a player out over it.
If somebody is deliberately disruptive to the game or abusive to other players that's another story.
-
On the other hand Ive had many problems with a certain type of gm.
It's the gm prefers to be playing and making ridiculously strong minmaxed charecters. The problem with these gms is they play a very rules heavy game but not exactly the right rules. They play to win, so they leverage rules they know but everyone doesn't to beat the players. And they tend to not be able to see things from others point of view.
Needless to say I left most of those groups.
Gm because you enjoy gming, not because you want to be a player in a game. Doing a oneshot to generate interest in other gms is well and good. But don't run a campaign that you much rather be playing, because odds are you'll play it like a player and miss the whole point.
-
Knock on wood, I've never had to deal with anything like this.
The worst it's gotten in my groups is people have removed themselves after seeing they don't fit in.
From other guys I've gamed with, their booting experiences have ranged from one session to several, just depends on the "infractions". Therefore I voted for, "until I'm fed up with them". I could see it being after one incident that we couldn't stand someone, or it could build up over ten. And it'd always be a group decision, not a single players (GM) choice. If it's just one player, maybe it's that player who's the problem.
-
You should be very careful about "booting" anyone. One would assume that everyone present are friends, and thus kicking someone out could lead to hurt feelings and could potentially damage the friendship. Is a game really worth damaging a friendship? In most cases, I don't really think so.
-
Which is why my groups are not my friends, regardless of how they feel about it. I only run for gaming clubs and I only attend to run and leave (though I'd love to have free time to actually hang out and make friends outside of my player pool), and only have to worry about being fair, not them saying "I'm not your friend anymore!". Never were, chump.
My last game with "friends" was almost 6 years ago, and there were rarely problems. Even when some guys got butthurt, they got over it in a week or two, because we were friends. They then returned with a willingness to work on the issues.
Edit for typos. Damn phone
-
You should be very careful about "booting" anyone. One would assume that everyone present are friends, and thus kicking someone out could lead to hurt feelings and could potentially damage the friendship. Is a game really worth damaging a friendship? In most cases, I don't really think so.
If your friends quit you over game stuff or you can't talk to them about issue their causing they are not really your friends is my thought.
-
If your friends quit you over game stuff or you can't talk to them about issue their causing they are not really your friends is my thought.
From the other perspective, if you're part of a long-term group (talking over a year of weekly sessions) and you suddenly get the boot for an issue involving the word "lately" (as in "Lately you've...") without any sort of warning first... well, then they're not your friends, no matter how you felt on the subject.
-
If someone can't get over being booted from a game, it's their issue, not yours. I've had to boot people in the past. 90% of the time it's over them either having a wildly different playstyle (more powergamer than RPer in our high RP group), being rude to the host (if someone invites you to their house, you follow their rules, clean up after yourself, and try your damndest not to wake the neighbors/family), or griping constantly at other players for not doing things the right way (right of course being how they would do it).
Having 4-6 people at the table, I don't think putting up with Problem A because he's your friend, to the detriment of everyone else's fun, is really an option.
Some players get that, we still hang out, they find different groups to RP with, and everything is kosher. Other players take it as a great personal offense that not everyone finds time spent with them to be sheer godly awesomeness, and lash out when they realize they aren't wanted to play in the game.
I generally do not find the later ones to be that much of a loss. They'll eventually get over themselves.
-
If your friends quit you over game stuff or you can't talk to them about issue their causing they are not really your friends is my thought.
From the other perspective, if you're part of a long-term group (talking over a year of weekly sessions) and you suddenly get the boot for an issue involving the word "lately" (as in "Lately you've...") without any sort of warning first... well, then they're not your friends, no matter how you felt on the subject.
Touche. Everyone needs a few warnings, unless violence or racial slurs are coming out of the holster.
-
To be honest iv only done a few sessions IRL and most of my games are PbP..now i never had any trouble (nothing terrible anyways) online..But those few sessions i did IRL i had a very annoying playing..wich is one of my buddie but that said buddy had an oversized Ego but is terrible at making (aka technomancer with no hacking skill or an Assassin..that is a magician..but wants to kill like a gunadept for some reason..and forgets to buy B&E tools) wich each time he took a shot or the rules didnt go in his favor he starting whining and throw a tantrum. FInally i just gave up GMing at least until i find other people for it
-
i swear, it was a group dicision, and whats worse is that not only did we kill his characters but after doing so in a horrible fashion, we kicked the player out of the group and told him never to return.
heres the story:
were running DOA/DNA and the new player, a friend of the GM's son has decided that he would like to join. So we help him build a character and get him going. The phrase "Absolute Stupidity" comes to mind with this kid, not to mention rude, inconsiderate, and completely lacking in sense.
he tries to bring Hackmaster into the game and we squash that mercilessly. he gets handed the job of baby sitting the team van which is our tech's baby. He allows himself to be distracted by a hooker and the van is blown up. we go on the mission and he just keeps hosing us left and right, so we narcojet him and strip him of all his gear and leave him in the lecture hall for the monsters
-
i swear, it was a group dicision, and whats worse is that not only did we kill his characters but after doing so in a horrible fashion, we kicked the player out of the group and told him never to return.
heres the story:
were running DOA/DNA and the new player, a friend of the GM's son has decided that he would like to join. So we help him build a character and get him going. The phrase "Absolute Stupidity" comes to mind with this kid, not to mention rude, inconsiderate, and completely lacking in sense.
he tries to bring Hackmaster into the game and we squash that mercilessly. he gets handed the job of baby sitting the team van which is our tech's baby. He allows himself to be distracted by a hooker and the van is blown up. we go on the mission and he just keeps hosing us left and right, so we narcojet him and strip him of all his gear and leave him in the lecture hall for the monsters
That's...pretty lame on your part, in my opinion, and barely really on-topic. The rest of us are talking about OOC repercussions for OOC activities; someone being disrespectful to their fellow players, making them uncomfortable, off-color humor that's not appreciated, etc, etc. People acting in a totally inappropriate way and being asked to quit the game, as a social activity wherein they made other people unhappy. It's not about in-game stuff, it's about out-of-game behavior.
You're talking about kicking a kid, and first-time shadowrun player, from a group because he let something silly happen in-character. You mention a bunch of other stuff happened, but the sticking point for you seems to be the thing with the van; which sounds an awful lot like taking a make-believe van more seriously than a real-life kid who might have been turned off of gaming forever by being socially kicked out of a group over it.
-
i swear, it was a group dicision, and whats worse is that not only did we kill his characters but after doing so in a horrible fashion, we kicked the player out of the group and told him never to return.
heres the story:
were running DOA/DNA and the new player, a friend of the GM's son has decided that he would like to join. So we help him build a character and get him going. The phrase "Absolute Stupidity" comes to mind with this kid, not to mention rude, inconsiderate, and completely lacking in sense.
he tries to bring Hackmaster into the game and we squash that mercilessly. he gets handed the job of baby sitting the team van which is our tech's baby. He allows himself to be distracted by a hooker and the van is blown up. we go on the mission and he just keeps hosing us left and right, so we narcojet him and strip him of all his gear and leave him in the lecture hall for the monsters
That's...pretty lame on your part, in my opinion, and barely really on-topic. The rest of us are talking about OOC repercussions for OOC activities; someone being disrespectful to their fellow players, making them uncomfortable, off-color humor that's not appreciated, etc, etc. People acting in a totally inappropriate way and being asked to quit the game, as a social activity wherein they made other people unhappy. It's not about in-game stuff, it's about out-of-game behavior.
You're talking about kicking a kid, and first-time shadowrun player, from a group because he let something silly happen in-character. You mention a bunch of other stuff happened, but the sticking point for you seems to be the thing with the van; which sounds an awful lot like taking a make-believe van more seriously than a real-life kid who might have been turned off of gaming forever by being socially kicked out of a group over it.
Pretty much my thoughts exactly, except adding in that it seems to me like there was more than a bit of "RP Elitism" going on there too. I got this impression by the "...tries to bring Hackmaster into the game and we squash that mercilessly" bit. I find it unlikely that he was trying to bring anything into the game but what he felt would be fun especially since I got the impression that he was a first timer to any gaming...
-
I mean, maybe there's a whole lot more to the situation than what we got -- but the impression I received from that post? Yeah. Not the sort of proud moment I'd be bragging about on the internet.
-
I mean, maybe there's a whole lot more to the situation than what we got -- but the impression I received from that post? Yeah. Not the sort of proud moment I'd be bragging about on the internet.
Yeah..I mean, the one guy we had that was in the "come on and grow a clue," we kept giving him chances for years..
We never actually kicked him out of the group, either. We just stopped saving him from his mistakes.
-
In my case it has to be a group decision. It happened once, or twice, but also we had a few cases where people just didn't fit in, and we didn't have to tell them that. As for both aforementioned cases, one player was being a dick to guys in the group, and couldn't refrain from hitting on the girls in a very uncivilized manner. He also boasted 20+ years of experience, but obviously the concept of player growth was lost to him - he never went beyond killing stuff and screwing NPC's. So after a few failed attempts of communication we gathered and made a decision... after like 15 minutes. I had to play the devil's advocate, but despite doing it properly, even if against my own judgement, the vote was unanimous.
The second case wasn't that easy. The girl who had become a real problem was a decent player, and a nice enough person. But something in RPG's ticked her the wrong way, and her characters were all backstabbing, scheming and plotting against the other player characters. Not all of them - only those who didn't follow her blindly. She managed to convince two of them that they were a team, and it kinda went downhill from there. So in the end I called for a split. I even went as far as finding a GM for the 'team' of hers, an acquaintance who loved that playstyle, and fancied himself a good Vampire GM. In short: we managed to find a nice pair of players for our team, and our problem ended up marrying her new GM after a while. I really hope they won't breed, as that will take a toll on my karma... =='
P.S. I am with Critas on that one - that was way more immature and rude than what the kid did. You could've given him the talk, and help him get over all that stupid crap he had in his head. Instead you've just deprived him of the chance to learn something.
-
P.S. I am with Critas on that one - that was way more immature and rude than what the kid did. You could've given him the talk, and help him get over all that stupid crap he had in his head. Instead you've just deprived him of the chance to learn something.
Always try and talk things through. ALWAYS try and talk things through. Frequently, there is some mis-understanding behind
what is going on. Frankly, I hope the day never comes when I have to actually tell someone they are not welcome in our
group anymore.
-
Last time my group removed someone they confabbed while I was running late to game (the player in question wasn't there that night) and decided between her attendance and some other issues they didn't want her coming back. The person running our FB group removed her and i had to give the actual bad news, which I found kind of shitty as I was merely ambivalent about here. But such are the trials of wearing the GM's hat.
-
I never boot players, I make them want to leave. It usually leaves the rest of the group with a good flavor in their mouths.
-
I've only ever had two players leave on bad terms, and both left of their own accord. The first was an RP drama queen who kept trying to re-centralize the campaign around his personal cliche revenge story. His character was one of the least useful party members, and had a tendency to IC threaten to leave the party/attack another character if some other member didn't change his behavior. Eventually, a party member refused, then continued to push his buttons until he attacked, at which point the party killed him, all without my interaction whatsoever. I asked if he wanted to roll a new, less polarizing character. He told us that we were all playing the game wrong, and quit.
The second was a decent if uncreative player who decided to play a social character. The problem was, he was basically incapable of RPing interactions; he basically expected to just throw dice at NPCs, which I wasn't cool with, and penalized him for (with explanation). He got frustrated, and I explained that he could either TRY to RP interactions, take his character in a different direction, or roll a new character. He decided to throw a big nasty fit on our campaign wiki, then quit.
I would never kick out a player unless one or more players had a major problem with him, or he was seriously detracting from the game.
-
I was in a campaign were one play would have his character wander off alone to be the center of attention. He would then be disruptive when the rest of the party was playing. One of the other players told him to knock it of or go home, he went home.
-
All these anecdotes from IC remind me of a game of 3rd edition DnD way back in my day. (early middle school I think.) I was playing a pure trickster/thief rogue with a sorcerer and two tanks through a sewer dungeon. The sorcerer and I were doing fine as far as not being total douchebags IC and OC judging by the DM's (also one of my besties) reactions. The two tanks on the other hand... He wasn't the only one who noticed it either, not with all the loot grabbing and elitism going on by them and their characters. At one point in response to my character bringing up them being assholes they threw me into a pool of sewage and laughed for a solid minute. Well, the next room happened to be full of whirling blades of death. Obviously being the rogue I went in first. The two tanks, with their superiority complexes, didn't want me to steal the glory and followed me into it. At this point the player of the sorcerer had had just about enough of those two and the whole situation. He dropped a fireball in the middle of the room, knocking the two unconscious which led to them getting a little slice and dice from the rooms traps. This is the point where I stand up at the table and yell "Evasion! Owned!" at the two. I did feel for the DM, who was massaging his forehead at this point, but the adventure was already shot so I took advantage of the situation. After disabling the rooms traps and looting the chunky salsa I disposed of the two in a sewer channel. Victorious laughter ensues. The conclusion was that the 2 tank players and sadly, the DM never played again.
-
In order to stop this derailment, I'm deleting my last couple posts. I'll leave this one up just long enough for the other involved to see it, and then I'll delete it too.
Good to see you've made the right decision. I've removed my comments as well.
Perhaps we shouldn't have further stories, since it's pretty evident that people are unable to not post judgmental comments.
-
Meh, I put that out there for peoples enjoyment. If there's beef they can always pm me.
-
Meh, I put that out there for peoples enjoyment. If there's beef they can always pm me.
I put mine out for the same reason, and was told, in thread, not PM, that all of my players should have quit. It's possible to disagree without being rude; a fact that seems to be lost on some of the posters in this thread.
-
The second was a decent if uncreative player who decided to play a social character. The problem was, he was basically incapable of RPing interactions; he basically expected to just throw dice at NPCs, which I wasn't cool with, and penalized him for (with explanation). He got frustrated, and I explained that he could either TRY to RP interactions, take his character in a different direction, or roll a new character. He decided to throw a big nasty fit on our campaign wiki, then quit.
Yeah, not cool. At all.
If you knew the guy wasn't one to play a face in your style of playing before he started the character, you should have addressed it prior to the character starting. If you let the player go on with the character for as long as you did, I put the fault on you. If you penalize the player, that's even worse. Were it me, I'd walk away from the group.
-
Yeah, not cool. At all.
If you knew the guy wasn't one to play a face in your style of playing before he started the character, you should have addressed it prior to the character starting. If you let the player go on with the character for as long as you did, I put the fault on you. If you penalize the player, that's even worse. Were it me, I'd walk away from the group.
Summary of deleted posts: Penalties for failing to RP are part of the rules in Exalted, just as bonuses for RPing well are. That means that, rules-wise, he was playing his character incorrectly, and refused either change his behavior, or move to an archetype he was more comfortable with, even when given an XP refund opportunity. He knew the rules for his character well in advance, and further I tried to teach him how to better RP interactions.
Summary of non-deleted posts: Judge not lest ye be judged.
[Edit: Come to think of it, this thread should probably just be locked. It's obvious that this is a topic that is A) highly divisive and B) strictly opinion. No good is going to come from the arguments here.]
-
Yeah, not cool. At all.
If you knew the guy wasn't one to play a face in your style of playing before he started the character, you should have addressed it prior to the character starting. If you let the player go on with the character for as long as you did, I put the fault on you. If you penalize the player, that's even worse. Were it me, I'd walk away from the group.
Summary of deleted posts: Penalties for failing to RP are part of the rules in Exalted, just as bonuses for RPing well are. That means that, rules-wise, he was playing his character incorrectly, and refused either change his behavior, or move to an archetype he was more comfortable with, even when given an XP refund opportunity. He knew the rules for his character well in advance, and further I tried to teach him how to better RP interactions.
Summary of non-deleted posts: Judge not lest ye be judged.
[Edit: Come to think of it, this thread should probably just be locked. It's obvious that this is a topic that is A) highly divisive and B) strictly opinion. No good is going to come from the arguments here.]
Why do I get the feeling I'm stepping on a landmine...
I think you at least should have asked if he was uncomfortible with actually RPing his character, and if he was comfortible enough with telling you, why that was. Some people just want dice rolls to determine how well they do. Hell, he might of had an issue with anxiety when being the center of attention. True, it was a bad idea for him to play that sort of character in a roleplay, but when most of us play these types of games, we don't want to think of our shortcomings and all the things we suck at.
I just think that the guy you were with was more comfortable with rollplaying rather then roleplaying. Both of them are acceptible, but only if the GM asks before the campaign which one THE PLAYERS prefer. THE PLAYERS responsibility is to tell the GM what they want in the game. If one player is an acting, talking sort, and the other prefers a more dice oriented guy, well, there's gonna be issues.
Mind you, the only problem I have with the whole story of yours is that it doesn't sound like you told him that your game was roleplay heavy before you started. That's my only issue. The hissy-fit over the RPing was, however, his fault entirly, and him subsequently leaving on his own accord sounds like you handled the rest alright.
Now, before you start being angry at me, can I hide under my desk, please...?
-
Mind you, the only problem I have with the whole story of yours is that it doesn't sound like you told him that your game was roleplay heavy before you started. That's my only issue. The hissy-fit over the RPing was, however, his fault entirly, and him subsequently leaving on his own accord sounds like you handled the rest alright.
He was told well in advance that the social rules required RP; I expressed misgivings at him playing a social character before the campaign even started. Considering he had played in one of my previous campaigns, he knew what my RP requirements were.
To be clear, I wasn't asking him to go full con-man on people. I was asking him to interact; not ever tell me exactly what he wanted to say, but just spend more time speaking with the NPC than "Look how cute I am! Can you do me a favor?".
Now, before you start being angry at me, can I hide under my desk, please...?
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
-
I can honestly say i've never had anyone that annoying. I do get players that want to mess around every once in awhile. Only thing I can't stand is cheaters :P. Someone who claims they rolled something they didn't roll, which has happened before at my table, said person hasn't done it again after me telling them I wouldn't tollerate cheating. Get caught again and your sitting out.
-
Thinking back further to the last person I "executive decision-ed" out of the game: The gentleman in question had been an irritant for a little bit. He had a bad habit of coming to game "off his meds" and in a highly combative (verbally only thankfully) manner many times. Even when he was on his meds his sense of humor was just a little...off. Just prior to him getting removed from the game he'd had an incident where he asked another player for their character sheet (said player was the 12-13 year old son of another player) and then tried to keep it until he stopped making a fool of himself in character. Needless to say this went over poorly with the whole table. The following week he was playing a pretty seasoned character that he had no logs for (my mistake there, this was a missions game by the way). He had a side mission where he needed to kill or capture a gang member. The whole team was at the gangs clubhouse having various dealings. The player follows his target out behind the clubhouse, I made sure to mention the plethora of gang members lounging about in the back alley as it was more or less an extension of their clubhouse. The player tries to be subtle about his takedown and was spotted by the guards. He's really confident in how dodge pool against gangers, until it occurs to him that dodge pool is chipped away very very quickly when your facing multiple oponents alone because your team mates don't much care for you and have no reason why your starting a dust up with a gang that they've been having positive dealings with. He got very beligerant about the other players not comign to help him and how many gang members there were. He declared he just wasn't going to take a log sheet for this session because he didn't want to loose the character he'd been playing for several years. Fed up, I just told him not to come back. Nobody at the table had an issue with the call afterwards.
-
Mind you, the only problem I have with the whole story of yours is that it doesn't sound like you told him that your game was roleplay heavy before you started. That's my only issue. The hissy-fit over the RPing was, however, his fault entirly, and him subsequently leaving on his own accord sounds like you handled the rest alright.
He was told well in advance that the social rules required RP; I expressed misgivings at him playing a social character before the campaign even started. Considering he had played in one of my previous campaigns, he knew what my RP requirements were.
To be clear, I wasn't asking him to go full con-man on people. I was asking him to interact; not ever tell me exactly what he wanted to say, but just spend more time speaking with the NPC than "Look how cute I am! Can you do me a favor?".
Ah. Ok, yeah, if he did say that to you and still went with the character, that makes more sense regarding your reaction to his lack of RPing. Yeah, that's a thing to talk over.
...so I guess it's safe to com-
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
THE ANGRY FACES!!! THEY GLARE DEEP INTO MY SOUL!!! INTO MY SOUL!!!
-
Cheating is something I don't tolerate either. Get caught once, automatic crit glitch on that test and your one and only warning. Get caught twice...well you effectively just crit glitched your etiquette roll for my group, get out. If people want to cheat, they should stay home and plug a Game Genie into their Nintendo.
[Edit: Come to think of it, this thread should probably just be locked. It's obvious that this is a topic that is A) highly divisive and B) strictly opinion. No good is going to come from the arguments here.]
I've seen a lot of good advice come up so far for how to handle things. It's a topic that doesn't come up very often and I've never really seen discussed, by having it here can only help people that need advice on dealing with player issues in their game.
I guess to end with I'll throw out a few things I've learned from these experiences:
A.) If the rest of your group strongly wants you to give someone the boot, don't hesitate. Either kill the game, or boot the player. Unhappy players do not have fun, and usually do not care if you feel sorry/guilty for/about the player.
B.) If the player has a close friend/roommate/significant other in the group, talk to them first about the issue, but don't force them to toss a vote in. I recommend not even letting them vote, because it will come up eventually, and it will cause issues. The game is not worth RL issues. Sometimes you might lose both players due to the booting. In my experience, only the one that was actually booted usually holds any resentment toward the GM/Group.
C.) Expect to hear 99 reasons why it's your fault. Booted players never, in my experience, are willing to own up to any issues they caused, or actions they've performed. They do, however, always find fault in dozens of things that you've been doing. Usually these are things that have never been brought up by anyone in the game and the rest of the group doesn't see.
D.) Be respectful. There is no reason to be a dick to someone when giving them the boot. You don't have to be nice, but at least be respectful. It's a game, remember that. Being a dick is only going to lead to anger and anger leads to the dark side...and often violence.
E.) Do it during downtime. Otherwise it will cut into your gametime. The only time I recommend not following this is if the Player has done something that is grounds for immediate ejection from the premises. If the player has been spectacularly upsetting to other players, they might want to grab popcorn and watch (actually had that request once), but there is really reason to make it a public spectacle unless you're trying to be a dick about it (for that see point D).
F.) Have patience. Sometimes the issue is not something that the player is aware of. Sometimes he's not use to the style at which you play. Don't knee jerk things unless something is horribly amiss (usually RL issues at the game table). Give the player a few sessions to get a better feel. If the player is doing dumb things, force them to by the Common Sense quality.
G.) Don't have too much patience. Waiting too long to permanently address the issue will lead to much heavier hurt feelings in the long run. A few sessions is one things. If you've waited a year, the player will get comfortable at his level of irritation and be much more upset for the objection.
H.) Don't feel guilty/sorry for the player. I guess maybe some groups will be younger, but for the most part we're adults, we make our own choices. You shouldn't have to feel guilty about making your game more fun for the players you enjoy. At the same time, don't feel sorry for the player. That path leads to point G.
I.) Stand firm in your decision. Assuming you talked to the group and made the decision together, never let the player talk you out of it. If you do, not only will he end up causing the same issues (after about a month or so of good behavior), but he won't respect any rulings you make and it will bring up more issues at the table.
J.) Expect Fallout. Usually, even players that took the booting in good grace, will end up tossing fallout your way. Sometimes it take a week or so, sometimes just an hour. There is almost always going to be a few days (if not much much more) where the player is as disrespectful to you as possible. Calling/Texting/or even showing up at your door yelling about this and that and how it's you that's the jerk. This ties into point C. but the main point of it is to expect it to crop up well after the initial discussion.
K.) Don't let the player know it was a group decision. If the player is going to be an ass and take it personally, there is no reason for him to know that the majority of the players wanted him gone. If he thinks it was just your decision, then he probably has only lost one friend due to his ego (those types almost always assert that they did nothing wrong), instead of everyone in the group. This goes doubly so in a case like point B. where the a voted boot may actually cause issues at home if the player knows it was a vote.
As for things to expect to hear when you boot a player:
-You were always out to get them.
-You always favored player x (player x being a different player obviously. If you're married or dating a player, it will always be that player).
-They were going to quit anyway because your game sucks.
-Their storyline never came up, ever.
-You didn't like them anyway.
-You're being racist/sexist/etc. and don't like a Y(whatever you're being) in your game.
-Everyone else is player a cardboard character, you can't handle running for a real roleplayer (usually from the worst roleplayers oddly).
-You cheat to make the team fail.
-Your face looks like a baboons turd filled crack and your smell like month old rotten skunk (exact details may vary, but similar insults).
-You're all a bunch of dumbasses.
Don't let it get to you, it's normal behavior for someone that's feeling singled out. People generally don't like being told they're not welcome back, no matter how nicely it's done.
-
As a side note: in my group we have some players who like political games, and some who say they hate that sort
of game, but when things turn political in a manner they enjoy(like: when it involves killing that NPC that they
don't like), they have no problems with it. And, when it comes time for the players who are not fond of political
play to GM, their storylines tend to be extremely straight forward. Though subtle discussion, it has actually turned
out that they don't have a problem with political games..they just don't understand them. This has actually caused
some issues in my group, as the people who enjoy political games accuse me of dumbing the games down for those
who can't handle them, and the ones who have the issues with political games get frustrated if I try to run the games at
a level the rest of the group wants.
Having identified the actual trouble, what I have, instead, started doing is slowly working the political game in bit by bit,
having player actions matter much more widely then they would have expected, etc. I have found that the slow introduction
of more complexity has helped the group with the issues, and the slow rising in complexity has made the political-favouring
players happier.
This, for me, is a solid example that play-style differences are not necessarily a reason to kick someone from a group.
There can be extenuating circumstances. Try and find them out, first, then work from there.
-
@WellsIDidIt: Now that is a post that makes me feel that this forum should have some kind of karma, or endorsement system.
-
It did, but there were people abusing the system to decrease credibility of those who disagreed with them. So it was removed
-
(In a prison cafeteria somewhere...)
shhh... don't let FastJack catch you talkin' bout the Karma System, man. Last guy to do that got turned into a human turducken. With his head. ;D
Joking aside, you don't really need the Karma System to show approval. Just type out +1 to the person who's comment you approve of, and state the reason why you did it.
PS: Wells, +1 for you. The examples list is useful for referencing what a good GM should do when talking to a problem player. Kudos. 8)
-
sorry guys, i'll skip most of the comments and make a general post to what else happened with this kid. This might have been his first couple of games with us but he was an experienced RPer and those are honestly all i can remember of what actually happened, its been 8 years or better. That said, maybe we were a bit tough on the kid, however when it came out later that he was only there to drag his buddy, (the GM's son) out of the game so they could hang out and get into trouble, we really didnt feel bad about it.
-
It is a matter of 1. Intent, and 2. Effort. If they intend to "play the game" to the benefit of the whole table, and put in the effort to make that happen, then they can stay. My best advice is to never ever let the twink character get beyond paper, because the intent is to self stimulate an obviously diseased ego, and their "effort" goes into the same self serving ego trip. Twinkies are for eating.
-
Had a problem with a play who was like this. played with him for years, but started noticing the bad signs of a bad play (roll and covering of dice, seemingly needing to be the actions center at all times, etc). called him out on it once, and hoped that would stop it. he eventually killed a RPG I had been running with his egotism and I gave him the boot with few regrets
The group was kinda sensitive after that so I handled and glossed over the rough edges. Then a long time player who had been mostly supportive started turning strange after a while. I am thinking his lack of employment might have been doing things to his perception of propriety. he started get more crude and was deliberately pushing what he could get away with and began to remind me of a juvie who liked getting others in trouble (he even smiled when the previous player got the boot). His pushing the envelope got to the point I asked him to dail it back a bit as it was making the female players uncomfortable. He chose to ignore me and picked on on of the other players as a target to screw with.
Eventually it got to be disruptive and I pulled him and the other player aside and said for them to settle whatever it was that was setting them against each other. the other player tried. the first didn't. He got a time out and put away from the game. to help out, I offered to help get him a job, using some personal pull. He declined and whined at me. things hit a rough spot as I tried getting the group back in order and I got used to my new jobb, pulling very long hours. One day, I got this rather long and involved guilt email from the offending player. I don't do guilt. We've not spoken since.
kinda sucks. but what can you do?
-
:o...i hate it when people forget about the game and having fun, and not at the expense of the game, system, other players, and GM.
-
It sucks, but it happens, and there's really nothing you can do.
When you get right down to it, most people that end up getting booted from a game are relatively long term friends that have recently gained issues making them disruptive to the game. If it's a new player, they don't get booted, they just never get invited back.
I had to boot a player just a couple weeks back that had gotten disruptive by griping about every choice other players made if it wasn't the action he suggested. Everything from planning and legwork to actual combat, gripe gripe gripe constantly to the point he wound up yelling at everyone at the end of the session and storming out of the house. We've been friends for a few years now, now we're not. His choice, not mine. It's a game. Get to serious about it, and things get unhealthy.
Sad thing about this one is that he had been warned repeatedly before, and had just been let back in the group (group vote) after being kicked for the same reason.