Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sipowitz on <12-14-11/1807:29>
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Our group is getting ready to do a restart and we decided on going with 300bp characters.
Anyone else ever tried this?
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Very low powered... almost equivalent to gangers
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Our group is getting ready to do a restart and we decided on going with 300bp characters.
Anyone else ever tried this?
It's called min-maxing, Bambi. @=)
EDIT: It's going to be interesting trying to get all the necessary skills under that limit, though. I think we should avoid technos and other point sinks.
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I took part in an online game on over on Dumpshock were characters were made with 40 BPs - SR3 rules, mind you...not sure what the equivalent would be in SR4.
Anyway, that inspired me to do a low-powered game with my players - this was around YotC, so we made them all gangers (I think it was 50-60 BPs worth) that SURGEd the first thing that happened. We played out their change, used the randomized SURGE rules from YotC, and the PCs bended together to form a small changeling gang, recruiting others in their position and fighting other street gangs for scraps and turf. Was a lot of fun.
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Keep in mind that at 300 build points you can only spend 150 on your attributes. This means that you cannot be an average member of your races (min+2 in each stat) because the points are so low. For that reason, I suggest 320 usually as a minimum.
Two other ways to make characters low powered that I've seen and used are:
A.) Limit Availability (usually see this limited to 8)
B.) Make each BP worth 1,000¥ instead of 5,000¥.
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Yeah, 320 is the level that I use. You can find a 320 challenge deep in the files on Dumpshock, and a much larger one on RPG.net's forums. I should port everything over here to help showcase how it works.
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I took part in an online game on over on Dumpshock were characters were made with 40 BPs - SR3 rules, mind you...not sure what the equivalent would be in SR4.
Anyway, that inspired me to do a low-powered game with my players - this was around YotC, so we made them all gangers (I think it was 50-60 BPs worth) that SURGEd the first thing that happened. We played out their change, used the randomized SURGE rules from YotC, and the PCs bended together to form a small changeling gang, recruiting others in their position and fighting other street gangs for scraps and turf. Was a lot of fun.
I so wanna do this. But in SR 4.
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It can be a lot of fun. I've played in a few low-powered campaigns. They key is having a GM that will give appropriate challenges. If you're ganger leveled group was made with 300 BP, corp security and Lone Star can actually be a challenge.
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Our group is getting ready to do a restart and we decided on going with 300bp characters.
Anyone else ever tried this?
Yes we tried and it was no Fun. :-\ :( >:(
Chars couldn't do shit because of the low Pool and the GM always had to "tone down" the Enemies or else they would've killed the Chars
(no Automatic Weapons, no Armored Jackets, not even a 3rd IP IIRC 2 IPS were reserved for "the Big Boss")
I suggest a Minimum of 350 BP
If You want to play Lowstyle thats the completely wrong direction.
with only 300 BP the Chars tend to be even more min/Maxed than with 400 BP and lacking fundamental Skills or Attributes (with CHA ,LOG and Edge as a Dumpstat)
If you want to play Lowstyle You'd rather lower the availiability or the resources (only 2500 or even 1000 ¥ per BP)
and Speak with the Players if they're comfortable with playing......Below average Chars
with a lowdance
Medicineman
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320 gives you Rookie Runners, in effect... they could easily be people fresh off the real world that have fallen into the shadows, they could be up-and-comers, but it also allows for grittier people, like your classic razorgirl or a corporate face-type who moonlights in seedier areas to start his Mr Johnson career path.
What I use for 320 is as follows:
320 BP, up to half of which can be spent on attributes (Thus, 160, or a 3 in everything) ... as usual, points spent towards Magic or Edge do not count as attributes.
Up to 40 BP can be spent on resources.
Gear is capped at Rating 4, or Availability 8, whichever is less.
Skills are capped at 4, but you can take one skill at level 5.
Skill Groups are capped at 3,
Contacts are capped at 4 loyalty and/or connection. (Thus, you coudl have a 4/4 contact.)
Adept abilities are capped at 4.
The GM reserves the right to thwap you and deny any cheeseballing. (IE, taking the inability to pilot anthromorphics is unlikely to get you 5 points, chummer.)
From there, you're pretty much good to go. I can post quite a few sample characters if you'd like.
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It's called min-maxing, Bambi. @=)
EDIT: It's going to be interesting trying to get all the necessary skills under that limit, though. I think we should avoid technos and other point sinks.
Poo she found me. ::)
If Ed didn't already say, we are starting in the Czech Republic.
I don't think we are super worried about a potential one stat bump not being there.
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It's called min-maxing, Bambi. @=)
EDIT: It's going to be interesting trying to get all the necessary skills under that limit, though. I think we should avoid technos and other point sinks.
Poo she found me. ::)
If Ed didn't already say, we are starting in the Czech Republic.
Sip - Didn't I hear that we were "fixing" the attribute total up to 175? Or was that a different conversation?
All, thanks for the reminder about the attribute mins. I'd forgotten about that. But the point is that we are going to be rookie runners and have an opportunity to advance based on that.
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Only viable way to do a Technomancer with 320 BPs would be either 'Latent' or 'Wild Technomancer', for later development.
Anything where you actually want to create a fully functioning Technomancer will either be seriously gimped at everything else, or else be heavily dependent on Threading - all the time.
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Biggest weakness I see in that group is that you will have little to no magic, period. Spellslingers are the biggest point sink there are. Still, if you want to do a game based around low to mid level gangers trying to hustle their way out of the Barrens, it isn't TOO bad.
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Alright, watching the debates right now, but I'll drop a few example 320 people in here. I have magicians, a technomancer, even, heck, a vampire.
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I don't think I have the spoiler code right. Let's see...
[spoiler]
Napoleon Jones
Race: Human (0 BP)
Attributes: (170 BP)
Bod: 2
Agi: 3
Rea: 3
Str: 2
Cha: 5
Int: 3
Log: 3
Wil: 3
Edge: 3
Essence: 5.9
Initiative: 6
Passes: 1
Active Skills: 120 BP
Electronics Group: 1
Influence Group: 3
Stealth Group: 3
Intimidation: 1
Leadership: 3
Perception: 3
Pilot Ground (Car): 1 (3)
Pistols: 3
Unarmed Combat: 1
Knowledge Skills:
Business: 3
Finance: 3
Philadelphia: 3
Fine Cuisine: 2
Philadelphia Shadowrunners: 2
Baseball: 2
Languages:
English: N
Japanese: 3
Qualities: (5 BP)
First impression
Contacts: (19 BP)
Fixer: 3/4
Arms Dealer: 2/2
Bartender: 2/2
Mr Johnson: 2/2
Resources: (6 BP)
30,000 Y
Lifestyle:
Low (2 mopnths prepaid)
Gear and such:
Novatech Airware Commlink with Iris Orb O/S (Response 3, Sgnal 3, Firewall 3, System 3)
Sim Module
Basic Programs: Analyze (3), Browse (3), Command (3), Edit (3), Encrypt (3), Scan (3) Virtual Wallpaper
Datajack
Fichetti Security 600 with 90 rounds fo standard ammo, 2 extra clips, and a conceaaled holster
Armored Clothing
Micro-Tranceiver (4)
White Noise Generator (4)
Certified Credstick
Autopicker (3)
Keycard Copier (3)
Fake SIN (2)
Fake Gun Liscense (2)
Glasses with Image Link
Earbuds
Goggles with Flare Compensation and Lowlight Vision
Mercury Comet (Car)
Lingusoft: German (2)
Lingusoft: Chinese (2)
Background
(Short form)
Napoleon is a bit on the small side, but quite charming and, more importantly, driven. He's been poor his whole life but found early on that while he wasn't much of a fighter, he was a dang fine talker. He's managed to turn this into a serious advantage, making himself an entry-level mover and shaker. He now leads his own Shadowrunning team, putting his planning skills and charm into making sure things run smooth, and even helps his guys invest wisely for the future. He's been betrayed in the past by his own family (His dad bailed when Leon was a kid, his mom became a junkie, etc) and he clings a bit harder to his new family unit than he really should.
Napoleon's strengths are, obviously, his good looks and charm which, coupled with his overall human-ness, opens a whole lot of doors, as well as allowing him to unload loot and procure new gear, and his ability to blend in almost anywhere ... he grew up a gutterpunk, after all, can practice Japanese tea ceremony with teh Yakuza in the morning and talk about Union deals with the mob in the evening. With no magic and no cyberware of note, he can gain entry into places that otehr runners can't, prepping an area for later, getting past security to follow someone, or, overall, taking whatever role the team needs, thanks to his disguise skills and acting ability.
While Napoleon's obviously spent most of his twenty one years getting ready for the Shadows, building an array of business savy and knowledge of who's who, he does have a terrible addiction to, of all things, baseball. It's a fond childhood memory and he still loves the game, even today. Maybe it's the tactical deciscions, maybe the timeless nature, or maybe it's the one place that he and his mom could go to bond, but, he just absolutely loves him some baseball and relaxes there at least twice a month during the season.
[/spoiler]
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ah HAH! That *is* how it works! Excellent!
(Keep in mind that I first started this challenge five years ago. Almost six now! Also, my typing is *horribly* sloppy. It looks better after a second draft, honest.)
[spoiler]
Princess
Race: Human (0 BP)
Attributes: (170 BP)
Bod: 3
Agi: 5 (6)
Rea: 3 (4)
Str: 3 (4)
Cha: 2
Int: 3
Log: 2
Wil: 3
Edge: 3
Essence: 3.0
Initiative: 8 (9)
Passes: 2
Active Skills (130 BP)
Athletic Group: 2
Close Combat Group: 3
Electronics Group: 1
Stealth Group: 1
Automotive Mechanics: 1
Etiquette (Street) : 2 (4)
Intimidation: 3
Negotiation: 1
Perception: 3
Pilot Ground (Bike): 1 (3)
Pistols: 2
Artisan: 1
Knowledge Skills
Motorcycles: 2
Philadelphia's Zero Zone: 3
Rock!: 2
Street Gangs: 2
Urban Brawl: 3
Yakuza: 1
Languages
English: N
Japanese: 1
Spanish: 1
Qualities (0 BP)
Guts
High Pain Tolerence (2)
Moderate Addiction to Zen
Scorched
Contacts (12 BP)
Fixer: 2/2
Street Doc: 2/2
Yakuza Lieutenant: 2/2
Resources (8 BP)
40,000Y
Lifestyle
Low (Two months prepaid)
Gear and Such
Muscle replacement (1)
Wired reflexes (1)
Sony Emperor Commlink with Renraku Ichi O/S (Response 2, Signal 2, Firewall 2, System 2)
Basic Programs: Analyze (2), Browse (2), Command (2), Edit (2), Encrypt (2), Scan (2)
Sim Module
Mapsoft: Philadelphia (4)
Trodes
Virtual Surround Music
Virtual Person
250Y worth of assorted musical chips
Forearm Snap Blades
Knife
Fichetti Security 600 with 60 standard ammo, spare clip, and concealable holster
Armored Vest (6/4)
Fake Sin (2)
Fake Gun Liscense (2)
Fake Driver's Liscense (2)
Automotive Mechanics Kit
Glasses with Image Link
Earbuds
Goggles with Flare Compensation and Lowlight
Micro-Tranceiver (4)
Chisel
Wireclippers
Flashlight
Harley-Davidson Scorpion
Low Lifestyle (2 months)
Background
(Short version)
Princess (Oh how she hates that streetname) was born to a fairly normal middle class home in a middle class neighborhood to middle class parents. She took piano lessons, went to gymnastics lessons, played soccer for the corporate kids team, and so forth ... up until her father was laid off in a downsizing. Their debt was called in, their house taken away, and within a month they were out on the streets of Philadelphia, just in time for New Years Eve. When a potential job opened up, her father took it, despite it being somewhat crooked (Bookkeeping for a small Yakuza-affiliated gang), and teh family moved into the Zero.
Life in the Zero is borderline Hell, with no law to be found and the only governing body being the assorted warlords who run the place. Fortunately, her family had protection from the Yakuza, due to her father's new position, so there was a dirt-poor semblance of a normal life for her. She made a few friends, tried to get by on educational software since there was no school to be found, gritted her teeth, and kept trying to be a good kid.
Then her mother was killed.
Caught in the wrong part of the Zero while trying to buy a Christmas present, she was caught by a rival gang, which ended as these things so often do. Princess was devastated and her father shatered, with him pouring himself into his work and a bottle and Princess trying to find something to cling on to, eventually locking into her father's gang and revenge. By the time she was sixteen, Princess had grown up the hard way, developing a hard edge to keep the world out, a drug habit, and a rep as a real fighter. Her father had fallen into a spiral into destruction, a spiral that she actually was following in her own way, and she'd probably have wound up just another dead ganger had she not made a move and saved a visiting Yakuza soldier from an ambush. He rewarded her with a job as first a guide and lookout, then a bodyguard, then later still an enforcer, impressed by the nail-tough blond. He started having her join him on missions outside the Zero, giving her the first look she'd had of the outside world in five years, bonding the two well.
Over the next couple of months, she served as his bodyguard, concubine, and all around girl friday, delivering packages, beatings, and warnings equally, earning herself a solid position ... or so she thought. Turns out that her "Angel" had repaid her early on, but, on a lark, kept her aroundalmost like a pet, figuring that someone utterly loyal and disposable could come in handy, which she did. He eventually sacrficed her to an ambush meant for him, one that she barely escaped. When she staggered into his home, eyes full of rage, he tried to talk her down, then pulled a gun on her, at which point she killed him. She took what she could, then ran, vanishing back into the Zero... the Yakuza didn't see the need to deal with her, since they'd already planned on killing her boss and she'd saved them a second attempt.
For the past couple of years, she managed to use her stolen goods to buy herself an upgrade, albeit a shoddy one, and has started hiring herself out as an independent contractor again. She currently works for Napoleon as his bodyguard and razorgirl, quietly praying that he won't be like so many others and kick her to the curb when he's done with her. She's built up a tough wall around her to keep teh world out, but, she's actually desperate for someone to love while at the same time thinking of herself as completely unworthy, a self-destructive spiral where, whenever she risks being happy, she finds some way to scuttle it. Princess, who still *hates* her street name (Given to her as a child by the native Zeroes who snickered at her pretty clothes, hair, and mannerisms), but hangs on to it as a reminder of her childhood (Tho she'd never admit it.)
Princess lives a simple life of booze, cigarettes, and playing pool in the bar or plinking away on a guitar in her slummy apartment. She's a diehard Urban Brawl fan, giving Napoleon hell over hisliking a 'Pansy game' like baseball, and is something of a motorhead, with a particular love for motorcycles and the freedom culture that it represents. Some nights, she just goes on a long drive, hoping that she can just outrun her life, but always comes back in the end.
Princess' muscle replacements are fine and barely noticeable, but her wires were a low grade to begin with and have never worked quite right. In particular, she can't turn them completely off, leaving her on edge and cranky from a constant mild headache from the increased blood pressure. She pops painkillers on a regular basis, and has developed a nightly shot of Zen to help her slow down enough to sleep. She'd love to make enough to upgrade to a real set, with an actual off switch that works, a rare razorgirl addicted to going slower, not faster.
Last edited by Wakshaani; 12-03-2006 at 06:44 AM.
[/spoiler]
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Third and final one for now, to showcase an actual magician. (These three make up half of a Shadowrunning team, by the by. There's also an Elven decker, a half-Chinese mechanic/rigger, and an Orc mercenary/military vet.)
[spoiler]
And moving right along, the team mage, to show that, yeah, you actually can make a magician at 320.
Lord Prometheus
Race: Human (0 BP)
Attributes: (190 BP)
Bod: 2
Agi: 3
Rea: 3
Str: 2
Cha: 3
Int: 3
Log: 4
Wil: 4
Edge: 3
Magic: 3
Essence: 6.0
Initiative: 6
Passes: 1
Active Skills (100 BP)
Conjuring group: 3
Electronics Group: 1
Sorcery Group: 3
Stealth Group: 1
Assensing: 2
Astral Combat: 2
Etiquette: 1
Knowledge Skills:
Chemistry: 3
Free Spirits of Philadelphia: 3
Fire Elementals: 3
Magical Theory: 3
Advanced Mathematics: 2
Matrix Chat Rooms: 2
Totally Hot Chicks: 2
Languages:
English: N
Latin: 3
Qualities: (0 BP)
Magician
Mentor Spirits (Fire-Bringer)
Senseitive System
SINner
Spells: (18 BP)
Manabolt
Heal
Physical Mask
Ignite
Mana Barrier
Magic Fingers
Contacts: (8 BP)
Free Spirit: 2/2
Talismonger: 2/2
Resources: (4 BP)
15,000Y and 1 Bonding Karma
Lifestyle:
Squatter (1 month)
Gear and such:
Novatech Airware Commlink with Iris Orb O/S (Response: 3, Signal: 3, Firewall: 3, System: 3)
Basic Programs: Analyze (3), Broswe (3), Command (3), Edit (3), Encrypt (3), Scan (3)
Sim Module
AR Gloves
Trodes
Virtual Surround Music
Wall Space
Virtual Girlfriend
Armored Clothing
Fake SIN (2)
Fake Driver's Liscense (1)
Micro-Tranceiver (4)
Contacts with Image Link
Earbuds
Goggles with Flare Compensation and Lowlight Vision
3 Glowsticks
Magical Lodge Materials (4)
Counterspelling Focus (1) ... Bound
Squatter Lifestyle (1 month)
Background
(Short form)
Lord Prometheus, MASTER of flames, is, in reality, sixteen year old Corey Stewart, a pimply-faced, voice-cracking nerd of a magician who fancies himself the king of all matrix chatrooms and future Archemage of Philadelphia. Corey has a fairly normal middle class lifestyle, living at home in his Cave of Transcendence (his room) and holding a part-time job as a clerk at Kwikee Burger, where he just moved up from janitor to fry-flipper. He's a sophmore in high school, where standardized testing missed his magical talent when he was younger due to Crash 2.0 wonkiness. Indeed, he's only recently come into his magical skills, having blundered into them a year ago during a chance encounter with a free spirit. Napoleon stumbled into him during a training excercise and hired him on the spot ... sure, Lord Prometheus is a geek and a magical newbie, but, he's still a magician, painfully rare in the shadows, and one young enough to be easily molded. He was terribly easy to rop into something as cool as Shadowrunning, with a few neat toys and promises of adventure a golden lure.
Corey himself is a fairly typical, if geeky, teen, dreaming of getting a car, a girl, and beating up the school bully with one lucky punch, not neccesarily in that order. He's a chatterbox online, hopping into dozens of conversations, but isn't elite by any stretch, often biting off more than he can chew. His last COmmlink got fried after he torked off an actual hacker who trace-and-burned his machine, but Napoleon got him a better one, which he's now starting to use. Napoleon even tossed in the latest Virtual Girlfriend from MCT, which has gone over quite well.
Corey tends to rely almost exclusively on fire elementals for spiritual backup, wears fire-themed clothes when possible, colors his hair red ... you could say that it's a theme. His contacts are cosmeticly enhanced to glow red, which is so much more wiz than his usual brown eyes that he rarely takes them out. His fake driver's liscense is tied to his real SIN, not his fake, and lists him as 18 years old.
Corey tends to be a bit loud and obnoxious, driven by his hormones more than he should. He lives at home with his mom and rebels against all those rules, but, well, his parents are his parents, so he doesn't go much beyond bemoaning the unfairness of life or slamming his door. His personality is basicly a brash teenager, a bright kid that's deeply geekenated, with a sort of recklessness that only the immortality of youth can bring. He's got a crush on Princess, and has recently found out that getting a buzz and passing out is quite cool.
[/spoiler]
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Those are alright, but we have some restrictions on characters.
As part of a military unit every character created has to have the athletics skill group at rank 1 minimum
Gear will be standard issue kit, anything beyond(like cyber/bio) is up to the player, but armor, weapon, etc will be standard issue, we are not starting as some elite super awesomesauce military kill team.
Your characters are why I don't buy into the (min+2 in each stat) concept, 2 of the 3 you list have a 2 in 2 separate stats, which is below that (min+2 in each stat) idea.
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Yeah, it is possible to make characters on such low points, but geez characters that low just don't seem like they'd be that fun to play. Either the GM has to dumb down everything to avoid slaughtering the team, or you have a new team every session.
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Agreed. I mean, Gantz is a fun manga to read, but if you were actually playing a Gantz game, then you'd either have a series of cardboard cutout characters, or be getting very frustrated.
For those who don't know, Gantz is an anime where normal humans are forced to take on aliens, and it is pretty much always a suicide mission.
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Yeah, it is possible to make characters on such low points, but geez characters that low just don't seem like they'd be that fun to play.
You haven't seen the way our group plays when we have the full 400 BP. It's a race for the GM to keep the players from bringing the town down around their ears.
Overcasted Stunball, Force 9, took down an entire group of what was supposed to be high-powered NPCs in the first initiative pass of the first combat turn and the mage soaked every bit of the drain.
"Enemies? What enemies?"
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Yeah, it is possible to make characters on such low points, but geez characters that low just don't seem like they'd be that fun to play. Either the GM has to dumb down everything to avoid slaughtering the team, or you have a new team every session.
We go against PR0 and PR1 types, We actually get hurt, combat lasts more then 1 initiative roll, etc.
Shadowrun doesn't give you more karma for killing 'higher level' stuff. A 10DP Sam, face, mage, techno still gains the same amount of karma as a 24DP Sam, face, mage, techno. The difference (for us at least) is that we can see actual growth for our characters. It's cool and all starting with that much awesomeness, but for some of us it gets old real quick.
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Heh. I've never had 24 dice in any character I've played. Though, granted, I spend points on developing a secondary role as well as a primary role.
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Heh. I've never had 24 dice in any character I've played. Though, granted, I spend points on developing a secondary role as well as a primary role.
I haven't either (except for an obscene soak roll on one character). Aside from that one exception, the highest dice pool I've had on a character so far has been the current one I'm playing at 19 dice. But then, while I see posted on here about this 'go for either 1 or 4 for skills' because of the 'karma efficiency' thing, it doesn't seem it works so well for my group. Of course games tend not to last long enough even for extremely low powered characters (like the examples given in this thread) to advance much. :-[
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I haven't either (except for an obscene soak roll on one character). Aside from that one exception, the highest dice pool I've had on a character so far has been the current one I'm playing at 19 dice. But then, while I see posted on here about this 'go for either 1 or 4 for skills' because of the 'karma efficiency' thing, it doesn't seem it works so well for my group. Of course games tend not to last long enough even for extremely low powered characters (like the examples given in this thread) to advance much. :-[
Wow... I must just be an instinctive tank, because that's about what I end up with for my "Squishy" characters.
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Most dice I've had on a roll would be 17, in social skills. And even that felt cheesy as hell.
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The target I use for 320 point characters is 8-12 dice, with the double-digit ones being for the combat monkies. These aren't the guys that you call on to break into Lofwyr's private data haven. :) A 4 in an attribute and a 4 in a particular skill is right in line for what they're expected to do.
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I tryed once.
It works if the GM really designs the campaign for a "low power" gaming.
it was fun, but to be honest I didn't enjoyed the run.
At this level you don't really play a runner, more a ganger.
I prefer to start at 400 or 450 BP, this level is more in line with the vision I have from a shadowrunner.
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So we had our first game and I didn't find 300 BP that much of a deterrent to a good gaming experience. My stats ended up mostly 2s and 3s (before cyberware / bioware enhancements), though I spent a lot of money on an 2 attribute enhancing pieces of cyberware (avoided Wired Reflexes. Essence cost is too high for me). I ended up with 2 init passes, and an 8 initiative when I can use the adrenal pump. Most of my dice pools are 5 to 6 dice, which gave me a decent amount to toss around. I usually ended up with at least 1 success.
So it's not power gaming, but it was fun and I got a lot more out of my character than I expected to get. And if you milk the negative qualities correctly, you can get a 335 point character out of it.
Anyone who hasn't tried it, should try it. Just for the experience of it.
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Should I post more of the 320 point characters? I have, like, thirty more of the durn things. :)
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Should I post more of the 320 point characters? I have, like, thirty more of the durn things. :)
My preference would be not, personally, but such does not sound enjoyable in the slightest to me. I'd rather have a character that can actually be capable rather than hamstrung by artificially lowered point scales.
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So we had our first game and I didn't find 300 BP that much of a deterrent to a good gaming experience. My stats ended up mostly 2s and 3s (before cyberware / bioware enhancements), though I spent a lot of money on an 2 attribute enhancing pieces of cyberware (avoided Wired Reflexes. Essence cost is too high for me). I ended up with 2 init passes, and an 8 initiative when I can use the adrenal pump. Most of my dice pools are 5 to 6 dice, which gave me a decent amount to toss around. I usually ended up with at least 1 success.
So it's not power gaming, but it was fun and I got a lot more out of my character than I expected to get. And if you milk the negative qualities correctly, you can get a 335 point character out of it.
Anyone who hasn't tried it, should try it. Just for the experience of it.
Yeah thought it was fine.
[spoiler]
== Info ==
Street Name:
Name: Pavel Cerny
Movement: 10/25, Swim: 6
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Elf Male Age 23
Height 2.0m Weight 54kg
Composure: 8
Judge Intentions: 8
Lift/Carry: 5 (30 kg/20 kg)
Memory: 6
Nuyen: 70
== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 4
REA: 3
STR: 2
CHA: 5
INT: 3
LOG: 3
WIL: 3
EDG: 2
MAG: 4
== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 6
Initiative: 6
IP: 1
Astral Initiative: 6
Astral IP: 3
Matrix Initiative: 7
Matrix IP: 1
Physical Damage Track: 10
Stun Damage Track: 10
== Active Skills ==
Assensing : 1 Pool: 4
Automatics : 3 [Submachine Guns] Pool: 7 (9)
Climbing : 1 Pool: 3
Con : 1 Pool: 9
Counterspelling : 1 Pool: 4
Etiquette : 1 Pool: 9
Flight : 1 Pool: 3
Gymnastics : 1 Pool: 5
Infiltration : 1 Pool: 7
Intimidation : 1 Pool: 9
Leadership : 1 Pool: 9
Negotiation : 1 Pool: 9
Perception : 1 Pool: 4
Pilot Ground Craft : 1 [Wheeled] Pool: 4 (6)
Running : 1 Pool: 3
Spellcasting : 3 [Illusion] Pool: 6 (11)
Swimming : 1 Pool: 3
== Knowledge Skills ==
Area Knowledge: Marienbad : 3 Pool: 6
Bars and Clubs : 2 Pool: 5
Combat Tactics : 2 Pool: 5
Czech : N Pool: 0
English : 2 Pool: 5
Magic Traditions : 2 Pool: 5
Magical Theory : 2 Pool: 5
Military : 1 Pool: 4
Russian : 2 Pool: 5
Underworld : 2 Pool: 5
== Qualities ==
Changeling (Class II SURGE)
Critter Spook
Distinctive Style
Extravagant Eyes
Glamour
In Debt (25,000¥)
Low-Light Vision
Mentor Spirit (Cat)
Mystic Adept
Nasty Vibe
Records on File
== Spells ==
(Tradition: Black Magic, Resist Drain with WIL + CHA (8))
Foreboding (Illusion) DV: (F÷2)+2
Increase Reflexes (Limited) (Health) DV: (F÷2)+2
Stealth (Illusion) DV: (F÷2)+1
Steam (Limited) (Combat) DV: (F÷2)+3
Vehicle Mask (Illusion) DV: (F÷2)-2
== Powers ==
Astral Perception
== Commlink ==
Hermes Ikon (4, 4, 3, 3)
+Novatech Navi
+AR Gloves
+Trodes
+Subvocal Microphone
+Armor Case Rating 4
== Gear ==
Combat Fetish
Contact Lenses Rating 3
+Smartlink
+Vision Enhancement Rating 3
+Vision Magnification
Earbuds Rating 3
+Spatial Recognizer
+Audio Enhancement Rating 2
Healing Fetish
Health Formulae (Heal)
Illusion Formulae (Hot Potato)
Illusion Formulae (Improved Invisibility)
Spellcasting Focus (Illusion) (bonded) Rating 1
[/spoiler]
Pavel came out just fine.
Personally I don't see the thrill behind rolling large dice pools, I like the chance to fail.
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I'm currently in a game at a similar level although we did have the option of it being 600 karma rather then 300bp, but that was also using the new karma rules with stats being x5
With some thought and prep we came out with some fairly balanced characters and are having a really good time so its doable if thats what you want to do. Now our game is ganger level so YMMV
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I'm currently in a game at a similar level although we did have the option of it being 600 karma rather then 300bp, but that was also using the new karma rules with stats being x5
But even with the 600 karma and x5 rules, you can easily create a (non min-maxed) 400+bp character.
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I would disagree, tradiationaly b is worth twice the karma and under the previous rules normal karmagen was only 750 not even a true double. This being the case a 600karma plus the increase in attribute costs would in my mind put it much closer to being equal.
I would say I've always found karmagen much more balanced in builds and less min maxed in practise
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I don't get how karmagen could be less min-maxed. To my mind, if someone wants to min-max, they're going to find a way to do it regardless of what points system is used to build their characters. Min-maxing is more a function of how power players stack their 'ware, toys, specializations and spells / adept powers.
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I don't get how karmagen could be less min-maxed. To my mind, if someone wants to min-max, they're going to find a way to do it regardless of what points system is used to build their characters.
Thats true, if you really want to, you can. But BP rewards minmaxing players. Having 4 attributes at rating 5 and 4 attributes at rating 1 costs equally BP as having all 8 at 3. But its cheaper to increase from 1 to 3 than from 3 to 5. Some people call it karma efficient, those prefer the first option. In KarmaGen having the first option is much more expensive than the second one. Instead of having one attribute at 5 and the other at 1, you could have one at 4 and the other at 3 - one high point is worth two little points. So its more appealing to chose the second option. Similar for skills.
Of course you can still optimize a character to fill specific roles, but the tendency goes to generalization.
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From what I've seen, BP promotes specialists, while karma promotes generalists. Then it comes down to a question of whether you want to be kick-ass at one or two things, or mediocre at best at several. Given the potential for Shadowrun to get very lethal, very quick, half-assing it is a good way to roll up new characters often.
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I think what most people mean is that Karma gen doesn't encourage you to min/max. Sure it happens, but its not like in the BP system where many people worry more about karma efficiency than character concept. The BP system encourages you to keep you key scores softcapped (unless there at 10 or over in which case hardcapping them is actually karma efficient) and your other scores very low because low scores are so much easier to raise (1 att point (10 BP)is worth 20 karma, the cost to raise a 3 to a 4 with karma. A hardcap (25 BP) is worth 50 karma, the cost to raise a 9 to a 10 with karma). Tack on other things like specializations and maneuvers that are literally half cost with karma, and the BP system doesn't just encourage min/maxing, it heavily rewards it. With Karma Gen, those high point costs for high dice pools are the same at character creation and during play. I prefer to play high body characters (usually trolls and orks) and even I highly prefer Karma gen just for simplicity (everything costs the same always). I think the two systems confuse many newer players.
As far as actual characters go, you can make just as heavily specialized characters in karma gen as you can in BP. Usually you just have more options for your left over points.
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I remember when someone asked how much more powerful a 750 Karma character was over a 400 BP character. I have a stock BP character nicknamed Bob the Ork to show ''not much if you know what to max and what not to on a BP character.'' It's just that the Karma character will be more rounded at other stuff, since the game has such strict hard-maxes on things. For example, Bob the Ork(a minmaxing example) had a 9 agility, from a soft maxed 5 and Restricted Gear: Muscle Toner 4. (I built him flat by the books, our own table doesn't use Availability restrictions at chargen, and prefer to play by a 'take what fits' method.) Bob also had soft maxed Pistols and Automatics at 5, with specializations and smartlinks. He'd have ended up with the same under Karmagen, but he'd have had more ''extra'' skills, like First Aid, or a few extra social skills above his Etiquette, or whatnot. If I had went crazy hard max on Bob, he'd have had the same Agility and same Aptitude of 7 at some firearm as a 750 Karma counterpart, but again, the counterpart would have been more well rounded in other areas.
I actually made a few 320 characters(a team) in that old thread that Wak had on DS, though it'll take awhile to dig them up. They turned out rather well, but were pretty specialized. I've also done 300 point characters before. It's definitely possible to work them, but as a player you need to be pretty clever about choosing your encounters, and as a GM you have to be careful as well not to accidentally overwhelm them. I say this from experience-I have gone a bit too far as a GM a few times on normal 400 BP characters and I didn't realize I was. If they had been less, I'd have creamed them without wanting to. But you can get some pretty nice things going with tactics-I've managed to provide challenges to powerful characters with considerably weaker ones by using numbers, terrain, and tactics.
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I think it actually depends on group preferences - like a difficulty level on a videogame. Some like to break skulls barehanded, crash megacorp servers and melt steel walls from the start (which gives the players a feeling of power), while others like to really work, think and bleed to get somewhere (which gives the players a feeling of accomplishment - when they succeed).
You also should consider how important dice rolling is to your game. If you're going to make a combat heavy campaign (like merc or military action), probably a low BP cost would make the players feel weak and fragile (if not dead), struggling to accomplish even the most basic challenges. If you're going for a story with more, say, social finesse or intellectual challenges, the players can use good interpretation, strategy and careful planning to overcome their character's low-to-average stats limitations (I was going to use a Superman/Batman analogy here, but nevermind that =P).
Finally, it should be taken into account the frequency of game sessions. The sense of character accomplishment and progress evaporates quickly when you have to wait a month or more for a new adventure. In this case, the advantages of a low BP game would not be felt by the players; these games would certainly be more fun with powerful characters.
All that said, I'm actually playing a 320 BP campaing for a while and it's going very well. We had even harsher restrictions, like almost no nuyen (made sense story-wise) so it was a real victory when our hacker could finally afford his datajack and his new 1250¥ commlink, or when our shaman learned from an experienced elder the basic aspects of Banishing, or when I found a lowly Remington 750 hidden in an abandoned pawn shop during a run. It felt so good when we finally had amassed the firepower, gear, skills and knowledge to take out a powerful enemy that gave us trouble from the very beginning of the campaign.
Today, after about 40+ games, we are every bit as powerful as most seasoned runners out there, and are damn proud to have climbed from the gutter to the penthouse. And I still keep my beloved Remington. ;)
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I think it actually depends on group preferences - like a difficulty level on a videogame. Some like to break skulls barehanded, crash megacorp servers and melt steel walls from the start (which gives the players a feeling of power), while others like to really work, think and bleed to get somewhere (which gives the players a feeling of accomplishment - when they succeed).
You also should consider how important dice rolling is to your game. If you're going to make a combat heavy campaign (like merc or military action), probably a low BP cost would make the players feel weak and fragile (if not dead), struggling to accomplish even the most basic challenges. If you're going for a story with more, say, social finesse or intellectual challenges, the players can use good interpretation, strategy and careful planning to overcome their character's low-to-average stats limitations (I was going to use a Superman/Batman analogy here, but nevermind that =P).
Finally, it should be taken into account the frequency of game sessions. The sense of character accomplishment and progress evaporates quickly when you have to wait a month or more for a new adventure. In this case, the advantages of a low BP game would not be felt by the players; these games would certainly be more fun with powerful characters.
All that said, I'm actually playing a 320 BP campaing for a while and it's going very well. We had even harsher restrictions, like almost no nuyen (made sense story-wise) so it was a real victory when our hacker could finally afford his datajack and his new 1250¥ commlink, or when our shaman learned from an experienced elder the basic aspects of Banishing, or when I found a lowly Remington 750 hidden in an abandoned pawn shop during a run. It felt so good when we finally had amassed the firepower, gear, skills and knowledge to take out a powerful enemy that gave us trouble from the very beginning of the campaign.
Today, after about 40+ games, we are every bit as powerful as most seasoned runners out there, and are damn proud to have climbed from the gutter to the penthouse. And I still keep my beloved Remington. ;)
I don't see how you found that enjoyable in the least. To me it sounds unbelievably tedious and boring.
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I think it actually depends on group preferences - like a difficulty level on a videogame. Some like to break skulls barehanded, crash megacorp servers and melt steel walls from the start (which gives the players a feeling of power), while others like to really work, think and bleed to get somewhere (which gives the players a feeling of accomplishment - when they succeed).
You also should consider how important dice rolling is to your game. If you're going to make a combat heavy campaign (like merc or military action), probably a low BP cost would make the players feel weak and fragile (if not dead), struggling to accomplish even the most basic challenges. If you're going for a story with more, say, social finesse or intellectual challenges, the players can use good interpretation, strategy and careful planning to overcome their character's low-to-average stats limitations (I was going to use a Superman/Batman analogy here, but nevermind that =P).
Finally, it should be taken into account the frequency of game sessions. The sense of character accomplishment and progress evaporates quickly when you have to wait a month or more for a new adventure. In this case, the advantages of a low BP game would not be felt by the players; these games would certainly be more fun with powerful characters.
All that said, I'm actually playing a 320 BP campaing for a while and it's going very well. We had even harsher restrictions, like almost no nuyen (made sense story-wise) so it was a real victory when our hacker could finally afford his datajack and his new 1250¥ commlink, or when our shaman learned from an experienced elder the basic aspects of Banishing, or when I found a lowly Remington 750 hidden in an abandoned pawn shop during a run. It felt so good when we finally had amassed the firepower, gear, skills and knowledge to take out a powerful enemy that gave us trouble from the very beginning of the campaign.
Today, after about 40+ games, we are every bit as powerful as most seasoned runners out there, and are damn proud to have climbed from the gutter to the penthouse. And I still keep my beloved Remington. ;)
I don't see how you found that enjoyable in the least. To me it sounds unbelievably tedious and boring.
It is the stories you tell, not the enemies who fell.
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It is the stories you tell, not the enemies who fell.
May I put this in my sig? =P
About the play style; of course, to each his own!
Games that almost exclusively revolve around super-elite-dangerous-unrealistic missions right off the bat, emptily destroying entire criminal syndicates, vampire cadres and corporate security by the buckets, solo-killing dragons with assault rifles and grenades or hacking a megacorp's central node single-handedly like a hot knife through butter are unbelievably tedious and boring to me, as well (I'm not implying that anyone here plays that way). =]
This approach reminds me too much of the cliché anti-hero ultracool trenchcoat-wearing kickass one-man-army (or four, five-men-army) so frequently found in modern media. Oh, so dreadfully dull.
This video comes to mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqz5dbs5zmo&ob=av3e
But again, to each his own. Using another video game analogy: Some like Call of Duty, some like The Witcher and very few people like both equally.
Fortunately, Shadowrun can accomodate all kinds of playstyles. With some minor tweaking, I'd heartily approve Sipowitz' proposal.
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Finally, it should be taken into account the frequency of game sessions. The sense of character accomplishment and progress evaporates quickly when you have to wait a month or more for a new adventure. In this case, the advantages of a low BP game would not be felt by the players; these games would certainly be more fun with powerful characters.
This stuck out to me quite a bit. In our case...our main SR game gets to play roughly three times a year. Plus, we don't use huge Karma awards. Needless to say, we don't often get to go much of anywhere in terms of development; this is why the 750 Karma, RC edition is so good for us. We can have some great fun in the short time we get to play, maybe pick up a couple of small skills, but still not feel like we're held back too much.
I also admit to enjoying a slightly more well oiled character myself. I don't mind a low powered game, but I'd prefer that to be a game that I can actually play in rather regularly in that case. For me, part of the fun of playing lower end people is the actual growth that you see them do from ''peon'' to ''awesome'' over time, through all the hard work and blood. Getting to play 3 times a year with low Karma awards doesn't quite let one see that, so in that case, we just come out on the ''Oiled Pro(with a pink 'hawk, of course!) but not Prime material'' and move up slowly from that.
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Finally, it should be taken into account the frequency of game sessions. The sense of character accomplishment and progress evaporates quickly when you have to wait a month or more for a new adventure. In this case, the advantages of a low BP game would not be felt by the players; these games would certainly be more fun with powerful characters.
This stuck out to me quite a bit. In our case...our main SR game gets to play roughly three times a year. Plus, we don't use huge Karma awards. Needless to say, we don't often get to go much of anywhere in terms of development; this is why the 750 Karma, RC edition is so good for us. We can have some great fun in the short time we get to play, maybe pick up a couple of small skills, but still not feel like we're held back too much.
I also admit to enjoying a slightly more well oiled character myself. I don't mind a low powered game, but I'd prefer that to be a game that I can actually play in rather regularly in that case. For me, part of the fun of playing lower end people is the actual growth that you see them do from ''peon'' to ''awesome'' over time, through all the hard work and blood. Getting to play 3 times a year with low Karma awards doesn't quite let one see that, so in that case, we just come out on the ''Oiled Pro(with a pink 'hawk, of course!) but not Prime material'' and move up slowly from that.
Three times a year?! I wouldn't remember my character's name after so long! ;P
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Finally, it should be taken into account the frequency of game sessions. The sense of character accomplishment and progress evaporates quickly when you have to wait a month or more for a new adventure. In this case, the advantages of a low BP game would not be felt by the players; these games would certainly be more fun with powerful characters.
This stuck out to me quite a bit. In our case...our main SR game gets to play roughly three times a year. Plus, we don't use huge Karma awards. Needless to say, we don't often get to go much of anywhere in terms of development; this is why the 750 Karma, RC edition is so good for us. We can have some great fun in the short time we get to play, maybe pick up a couple of small skills, but still not feel like we're held back too much.
I also admit to enjoying a slightly more well oiled character myself. I don't mind a low powered game, but I'd prefer that to be a game that I can actually play in rather regularly in that case. For me, part of the fun of playing lower end people is the actual growth that you see them do from ''peon'' to ''awesome'' over time, through all the hard work and blood. Getting to play 3 times a year with low Karma awards doesn't quite let one see that, so in that case, we just come out on the ''Oiled Pro(with a pink 'hawk, of course!) but not Prime material'' and move up slowly from that.
Three times a year?! I wouldn't remember my character's name after so long! ;P
I have a hard time remembering my character's name after three weeks without a session... :P
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Well, my main GM is in the US, and we only visit once a year. I now live in Helsinki with my husband, so actually getting to play constantly with the whole table is a bit of a problem, to say the least.
I luckily keep good records of characters. My husband does as well, so we get by. ;D
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We have an alt game that does this. VERY low power, VERY high creativity, moxy and story. Having a blast with it, too. Forces you to be humble and clever, two things well-remembered in cyberpunk stories.