Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Teabeeyea on <07-21-11/2022:23>
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Metatype : Human
Mundane
Attributes
Body: 5
Agility: 3
Reaction: 3
Strength: 3
Charisma: 2
Intuition: 2
Logic: 5
Willpower: 5
Edge: 2
Initiative: 5
Essence: 6
Knowledge Skills
English : N
Military : 4
Lone Star Procedures : 1
Bars : 2
Tactique : 3
Hong Kong Triads : 4
Security Companies : 4
Biology : 4
Active Skills
Cybertechnology : 4
First Aid : 4
Medicine : 4
Counterspelling : 4
Ritual Spellcasting : 4
Spellcasting : 4
Parachuting (Low altitude) : 3
Instruction : 2
Leadership : 1
Intimidation : 1
Perception : 4
Navigation : 2
Running : 2
Survival : 2
Pilot Ground Craft : 3
Pistols (Semi-Automatics) : 1
Positive Qualities
Quick Healer
Toughness
Will to Live 3
Negative Qualities
Sensitive System
Weapons
Colt Manhunter
4x Regular Ammo (10 shots)
Armors
Armor Jacket
Form-Fitting Body Armor Full-Body Suit
Vehicles
GMC Bulldog (Van)
Weapon Mounts
Commlinks
Commlink : Renraku Sensei
Equipments
Endoscope
Rappeling Gloves
Respirator (Rating 2)
Survival Kit
Medkit (Rating 6)
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Very first thing I noticed. It says mundane, has no magic stat, but has magician skills. I think something was lost in the copy and paste. If it is a combat medic mage then that explains no implants. Second thing is it looks like you bought all the medical skills separately. You should put them in a group to save points.
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Heyo :)
You have the Character listed as a Mundane, but then have Skills like Spellcasting, Counterspelling, Ritual Casting etc which are limited to Magical (ie Awakened) character types.
So which do you prefer? Mundane or Awakened
A) If Mundane, I recommend dropping the Magical skills and investing some resources into Augmentations (Cyberware, Bioware Genetech etc) to make you faster, better stronger.
B) If Awakened, you'll need to add more resources into your Magic Attribute, and choose either the Magician/Mystic Adept/Adept positive quality (then grab some spells and/or Adept enhancements as appropriate).
C) There are a lot of physical skills listed, but they're either at low ratings or in strange groupings.
- Running at 2. Hmmm, instead get the whole Athletics skill group at 1. Running is nice, but being able to swim and climb as well is also useful ;)
- Medicine is more of a professional Doctor/Surgeon skill. Are you the guy who is running in the field dodging bullets, or are you the camp doctor in a Mash episode? Corps don't normally risk a trained Doctor out in the field... training them is too expensive...
- Intimidation is a nice skill to have, however with a Charisma of 2 it's going to be of limited use. I think it's fair to say that your bedside manner is not going to be very comforting :P
- On the same line, instead of grabbing a few social skills at 1, grab the whole Influence skill group.
- Navigation and Survival at 2 is a bit expensive. Who not invest in the whole Outdoors skill group and get some Tracking as well?
D) Body is nice, however I think this is less of a front line tank, and more of a hide and hope not to get shot type of character
- To that end, I recommend lowering the body attribute, and putting more into Agility or Reaction (or both)
- Also recommend a rank or two of the Infiltration skill. Hiding is very VERY useful...
E) Pistols skill is fine, But play for a while before deciding on a specialisation. Semi-Autos are nice, but they're very much a low-power option. Specialising in them would need to be a strong Background theme in order to walk away from more powerful options like Machine Pistols, Heavy Pistols or Tasers (IMHO, heavy pistols is the best option).
In the end, depending on the Magic vs Mundane scenario, your PC has a lot of modification required. It's a very solid concept for a Combat Medic and the High Logic and Willpower are great
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Very first thing I noticed. It says mundane, has no magic stat, but has magician skills. I think something was lost in the copy and paste. If it is a combat medic mage then that explains no implants. Second thing is it looks like you bought all the medical skills separately. You should put them in a group to save points.
Dammit, Ninja'ed :D
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Pistol specializations are wierd, actually.
Machine pistols don't use Pistols, they use Automatics.
The listed specializations are Hold-Outs, Tasers, Semi-Automatics, and Revolvers - no "Heavy Pistols" option, and no mention of things that are not any of the above. "Semi-Automatics" is actually probably the best specialization of those - it covers the very nice Yamaha Sakura Fubuki and the also very nice Ruger Thunderbolt.
Of course, your GM might allow you to specialize in something like "Heavy Pistols" or "Light Pistols" but the specializations for pistols don't match up to the weapon categories. And don't even get me started on the Throwing Weapons or Unarmed specializations.
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Pistol specializations are wierd, actually.
Machine pistols don't use Pistols, they use Automatics.
The listed specializations are Hold-Outs, Tasers, Semi-Automatics, and Revolvers - no "Heavy Pistols" option, and no mention of things that are not any of the above. "Semi-Automatics" is actually probably the best specialization of those - it covers the very nice Yamaha Sakura Fubuki and the also very nice Ruger Thunderbolt.
Of course, your GM might allow you to specialize in something like "Heavy Pistols" or "Light Pistols" but the specializations for pistols don't match up to the weapon categories. And don't even get me started on the Throwing Weapons or Unarmed specializations.
A) On Machine Pistols., I am corrected :)
B) Specialisation lists on skills are notoriously buggy. Taking Semi-Automatics for example allows you to 'specialise' with 80% of the gear list. However, if you take alternative specialisations based on the same class of the weapon categories in the Firearms list (Hold out, Taser, Light Pistol, Heavy Pistol) you at least get some type of clearly defined list of where the Spec. does/doesn't apply.
As always, refer to GM :)
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"Talk to the GM about how pistol specializations work" is good advice, yes.
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Thanks all! I'm still learning the system and I have not yet played a single game. So I appreciate the feedback. I will readjust skills based on feedback and repost later.
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On the mundane/magic side of things. I want to point out that you generally(though some concepts work like this) don't want to be mundane, no cyber/bio, and have a low edge. One of the 3 should happen to a decent degree. Mages have the heal spell and it can be applied after first aid, though first aid can not be applied after magical healing so being a mage does help in that regard. Cyber/bio there are Logic boosters and probably other things that would help medicine that I am not thinking of. Edge just gives you tons of dice to roll. You should really have at least one of them.
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A "Heavy Pistol" Specialization wouldn't make a lot of sense.
A Revolver functions differently than a Semi-Auto.
That said, really a Specialization should be with a specific model...a Glock and a 1911 are both automatics, but have different grip angles, controls, etc.
But that would be fairly restrictive and probably encite player riots. :P
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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A "Heavy Pistol" Specialization wouldn't make a lot of sense.
A Revolver functions differently than a Semi-Auto.
That said, really a Specialization should be with a specific model...a Glock and a 1911 are both automatics, but have different grip angles, controls, etc.
But that would be fairly restrictive and probably encite player riots. :P
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Firearms, concentration in pistols, specialization in ares predator. The way it should be.. :) Skills and specializations are weird, some are stupidly narrow others are way to broad. Skill Ares Squirt, really that can't fall under pistols or something? Specialization of SA pistols? So I can specialize in the 80% of the guns I'd most likely be using anyways, awesome. Just give me 2 dice for free. I kind of wish they brought back concentrations with maybe them giving 1 die instead of specializations 2, but it could cover something as broad as SA pistols.
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I can live with specialization by group such as SMGs being a specialization of Automatics. But the pistols specializations are weird as heck. I'll review the character when I see v2. I'm playing a combat medic myself (mind over matter mystic adept) so I might be able to help somewhat
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Combat Medic
Here is version 1.1
Metatype : Human
Mundane
Attributes
Body: 5
Agility: 3
Reaction: 3
Strength: 3
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 2
Logic: 5
Willpower: 3
Edge: 4
Initiative: 5
Essence: 6
Knowledge Skills
English : N
Military : 4
Lone Star Procedures : 1
Bars : 2
Hong Kong Triads : 4
Security Companies : 4
Biology : 4
Active Skills
Climbing : 2
Gymnastics : 2
Running : 2
Swimming : 2
Navigation : 2
Survival : 2
Tracking : 2
Automatics : 3
Longarms : 3
Pistols : 3
First Aid : 6
Parachuting : 3
Instruction : 2
Leadership : 2
Intimidation : 2
Perception : 4
Pilot Ground Craft : 3
Positive Qualities
Quick Healer
Toughness
Will to Live 3
Negative Qualities
Sensitive System
Weapons
Colt Manhunter
3x Regular Ammo (10 shots)
Armors
Armor Jacket
Form-Fitting Body Armor Full-Body Suit
Vehicles
GMC Bulldog (Van)
Commlinks
Commlink : Renraku Sensei
Equipments
Respirator (Rating 2)
Survival Kit
Medkit (Rating 6)
Low Altitude Parachute
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Quick question, are you okay with going either technomancer, magic or having augmentation? I noticed you were a mundane with sensitive system, so I think this is a deliberate choice on your part. I wanted to make sure it was before I worked my recommendations.
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Being new to the system and world I have a hard time imagining cyber augmentation in a way that I could play. I am ok with Technomancer and Mage, but I don't understand the requirements for technomacer much. I first thought about playing a combination of a mundane first aid provider, and a magic healer. Obviously he'd have to be a mage or adept. But when I tried to build something like that I ended up with a mess. That is why I had casting spells in version 1. They where left overs.
Any suggestions on how I can combine this concept with that of a mage would be greatly welcomed.
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Cyber augmentation is very useful for your character. Mnemonic enhancers to remember all of that medical knowledge. Cerebral boosters to help you process the information coming in.
Nanites can up your logic skills or PuSHeD genetech. Heck, grab a cyberarm and stick a biomedical suite in it. That way you'll always have your tools on hand.
One thing to think about... Chemistry and biotech link to logic. And it is within the realm of possiblity that as a doctor you would have some knowledge of various pharmacuticals.
So being able to cook your own pharms is always fun. And if you already cooking things it is a short hop to cooking demolitions.
And demolitions also links to logic. So you'd be a super-smart, drug-dealing, buliding-leveling, life-saving sun-of-a-gun.
And having played this character, i can say it was tons of fun.
Or you could do down the hacker route, as both hacking and biotech utilize logic.
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What Tsuzua is getting at is that being an unaugmented mundane is playing Shadowrun on Very Hard Mode, and if you're doing that, it should be because you really, really want to be an unaugmented mundane in a world of killer cyborgs and magicians.
You can make "combat medic" work as a mundane with augmentations well, or as a magician, or as a magician with augmentations. Which would you prefer?
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Being new to the system and world I have a hard time imagining cyber augmentation in a way that I could play. I am ok with Technomancer and Mage, but I don't understand the requirements for technomacer much. I first thought about playing a combination of a mundane first aid provider, and a magic healer. Obviously he'd have to be a mage or adept. But when I tried to build something like that I ended up with a mess. That is why I had casting spells in version 1. They where left overs.
Any suggestions on how I can combine this concept with that of a mage would be greatly welcomed.
That's fair. Shadowrun is unfortunately extremely unforgiving to unaugmented mundanes. Thankfully medics and mages go well together. We'll make him unaugmented as well (there's a lot of augmentation that help medics, but we don't need them). This should at least give you the basis for you to flesh out.
First off, we need to get points to afford magic. We'll want a magic 5 and willpower 6 (70 points). One quick and easy way to become a dwarf. That will save you 15 points (10 saved from body, 20 saved from str, 10 saved from willpower increased, -25 for the cost) and lose 1 point of edge. Until we're sure we can afford it, we'll have to go down to 1 edge. That leaves us with 35 of the 70 we need. If you want to stay human, get a 5 willpower instead and you'll need to find 5 more points somewhere.
Sadly the skill system of shadowrun is very much "way more skills that you can possibly afford" style system. So a lot of just cool to have skills will have to be removed. First on the block will be less useful skills, instruction and parachuting. They sound cool, but they aren't going to help much. That's 20 saved right there. 15 more to go.
Firearms seems like a good skill group, but you're going to be casting as your offense. Let's go with a good sidearm and just get pistols 4. That will give you 9 dice (3 agility + 4 pistols + 2 smartlink) which is passable. That saves us 14 points (30-16). Giving us 1 more point to dig up. I'm sure we can find it so let's consider it done for now. You can easily drop this for more points. You could also go with automatics or even heavy weapons with the idea you'll want more heavier firepower when you can't cast spells.
Now we need skill points to cast spells and summon spirits. Spirit summoning is surprising easy. If we can get a force 4 power focus (more on this later), it's quite easy so let's get Summoning 1 for now. However for spellcasting, we're at a crossroads. I'm not going to kid you. Spellcasting 6 is what you want. However that means you can't have first aid 6. First aid 4 is quite good if the GM uses the Augmentation "use higher of skill or medkit rating" for the highest number of boxes you can heal. If you want to stay at first aid 6, I won't hold it against you if you do it knowing what's your paying for it. I'm going to assume you did downgrade first aid to 4 and bought Spellcasting to 6. This shouldn't change the math too much either way (one's going to be 4 and the other 6).
So we need First Aid 4 (we're just going to swap the points from First Aid 6 to Spellcasting 6), Summoning 1, and Counterspelling 4 (gotta stop those spellcasters!). That means we need 36 more points [(4+1+4)*4] for a total of 37 needed.
I noticed that you got the Outdoors, Influence and Athletics groups at 2. This is a bad place to put them. Outdoors is less useful than you think and your high willpower means you're good at living in the woods. So let's drop that completely. Influence is more iffy. You clearly want to have a bedside manner, but you'll never be a face. Let's get Etiquette 1 so you don't end up with foot in mouth disease, but drop the rest. As for Athletics, we're got to cut more so let's drop that too. After all of this, we've gotten back 36 points (20+20-4+20). We've got that 1 little point from before left over.
Now we need spells. The spells you really should get are stunbolt, improved reflexes, and heal. You're a medic and stunbolt is the go to pew pew spell for mages. There's a lot of good (and bad) spells so let's say you want 4 more. That's a total of 7 spells for 21 points needed.
One easy way is to add more negative qualities. I'll let you figure out what you want, but I suggest getting all 35 points worth. That give us 20 more points. We're now down 2 points.
Now let's cover your positive qualities. To be perfectly honest, they're bad (I can explain why but this is getting long enough already) and we need the positive quality points. You want Magician, Mentor Spirit, Restricted Gear (power focus 4). I'm not sure if you want anything else (let's not touch SURGE). This will give you 10 points back. Leaving you now up 8 points! Let's put those points into cash for 40,000Y. More on this latter.
So right now the sheet looks like this:
[spoiler]
Metatype : Dwarf
Attributes (220 spent)
Body: 5
Agility: 3
Reaction: 3
Strength: 3
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 2
Logic: 5
Willpower: 6
Edge: 1
Magic: 5
Initiative: 5
Essence: 6
Knowledge Skills
English : N
Military : 4
Lone Star Procedures : 1
Bars : 2
Hong Kong Triads : 4
Security Companies : 4
Biology : 4
Active Skills (116)
Spellcasting 6
Summoning 1
Counterspelling 4
Pistols 4
Etiquette 1
First Aid 4
Perception 4
Intimidation 2
Pilot Ground Vehicles 3
Positive Qualities
Magician 15
Restricted Gear (Power Focus 4) 5
Mentor Spirit (Your Pick) 5
Negative Qualities
Sensitive System -15
-20 Worth of your choice
Spells:
Increase Reflexes
Stunbolt
Heal
4 others of your choice
Gear: As before + 40000Y
[/spoiler]
I just want to make this everything so far is cool before we start trying to find cash for your foci. You may end up cutting deep for a force 3 sustaining focus and force 4 power focus, but it'll be worth it. We'll need 90,000Y more and 7 BP to bind them for a total of 25 BP.
We may also return to look at your attributes. Sadly Shadowrun doesn't follow the golden mean when it comes to attributes. You'll want them really high or really low. You may want them high enough so that the GM doesn't single you out for punishment though. Ideally we'll want to increase your initiative and that means buffing reaction and/or intuition.
On a final note, logic actually has a good amount of traditions to go choose from. I'll go with what you feel like being. From there, we can decide what type of spirit you want to summon. This along with what type of spells you want to cast (my guess is combat or healing) will help us narrow down what mentor spirit you want.
This character is a logic mage who's handy with a medkit (15 dice before mods means 2-3 boxes healed). If that's okay with you, let's continue. If not, I suggest you go with cybered mage or mundane. That's where you get high first aid checks.
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WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW!!!!!!
Thanks for all the help!
Yes this is looking really good. So based on what you did, I've taken a little more focus on the COMBAT aspect of the concept. For a Mentor Spirit I took - Wolf for the +2 Dice to Combat Spells. For spells I took Lightning Bolt, Flame Thrower, Ball Lighting, Mana Ball Stablize, Heal. If I add some kind of scope to a long arm I can use the scope to extend the rage of my LOS spells?
For the VAN. I have in my mind an Urban US Army 997 HUMVEE 4 Litter Ambulance. Is there a way to do that in this game system? If you don't know the 997 is an uparmored HUMVEE that has 1 inch kevlar armor throughout. So can I buy enough armored vests to line the inside walls of the van? Is there a skill to do that properly? I want the van to look mundane from the outside and out.
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Talk to your GM, but I'd let you use the DocWagoin Ambulance in Arsenal refluffed to be the 2070s version of the 997.
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Awesome. I'll help you with finding the cash for the foci later.
As for the spell, I'll suggest dropping lightning bolt and ball lighting. Flamethrower is now your go-to shoot drones spell. Lightning bolt really doesn't do anything flamethrower or SnS rounds can't do. Ball Lighting is really nasty drain that even with a 11 drain pool. You'll likely be taking a decent amount of drain. I'll get powerball instead if you want a big "kill people and machines on an average roll AE." Stabilze seems like something that would be useful, but it's not as much as you would think. You bleed out 1 box every (Body) combat turns. So unless you hang out with 2 body dudes, there's a good chance the combat will be over by the time they bleed their first box. After that it's a very easy first aid check to heal.
As for Wolf, personally I think he's cool (I've been meaning to make a shark guy myself someday). Beast spirits aren't the best spirit type, but they are still spirits and thus full of winning. But you will have to keep in mind that you'll have to make a not guaranteed roll to run away even from a really dangerous fight. There's a non-zero chance it'll kill you one day. As long as you're fine with that, that's cool.
Now for the van, there's the GMC MPUV which is basically a military humvee in MilSpecTech. It's 16000Y and has roughly the same stats as a GAZ P-179 with off-road suspension and multi-fuel engine.
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I would take Tsuzua's advice and drop Ball Lightning for Powerball, and drop Stabilize (as mentioned, not very useful unless you are terrible at first aid) for Detox, which is much more helpful.
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Something to think about, being a Combat Medic isn't about "healing". It's about stabilizing. It doesn't mean you don't have medical knowledge and can't do minor level treatment of the sniffles and aches and pains, but your primary focus is stabilizing combat trauma until evacuation to higher care. I'm a Combat Medic, so if you want to PM, go ahead. If not, it won't hurt my feelings.
I think some re-focusing of your skills is in order. When you got out of the service/ corp, were you a grunt or an NCO? If you weren't in leadership, you can probably save some points by focusing on Soldier skills and not so much the leadership and Instruction stuff. Also, any former Soldier type is gonna have a 3 level of training, at least, in those related skills.
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Thanks. Actually, I am former Army Combat Medic that spent his time in FSBs and an evac driver. So there is a slightly different role than the platoon "Doc". But with the changes to add spells, I was going for the Shadowrun version of the DnD cleric. Your right of course about the leadership point buy.
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Now for foci. There's two types of foci we care about at creation, sustaining and power. I'll get a force 3 health sustaining focus for your Increase Reflexes spell. It's an easy way to get +2 initiative and +2 IP. It isn't as reliable as ware due to background count and wards so I'll bring some cram just in case. That's 3 BP to bind and 30,000Y. We have 40,000Y to spare so that covers the cost and 2 BP to bind. We'll have to find 1 more BP. I'll say downgrade the Bulldog van into something like the GAZ or the MPUV. That frees up 3 BP or so leaving 2 behind.
After careful review, a force 4 power focus is more debatable. It's 29 BP now or 32 karma and 100,000Y later. It'll depend on how much karma and money you get. The more you get per adventure, the less you have to wait. There's also that you might your karma to go somewhere else like initiation, high force sustaining focus, magic, or a centering focus. You will want a power focus eventually. It's a huge buff to your magical power.
If you do go for the focus (which I normally do), you'll need 27 more BP. You'll have to lower skills to do so. I'll say intimidation, pilot ground vehicles, and maybe pistols are good choices to drop. You may also want to drop an attribute by 1 as well.
On that note, you have a lot of attributes at 3. Sadly SR hates you for doing that. It's better to have one high attribute than two average ones. It's cheaper on the karma and having a 5 dice pool is so crummy for most things that you might as well have it lower. I'll say increase reaction and intuition. Both help you fight better and help out with skills like driving or perception. You'll have to lower your charisma and agility to cope with that.
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Then yeah, I'd drop several of those kinds of skills and boost your "fighting" skills. Also, any reason to have swimming, running and climbing?
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I have Running Swimming and Climbing as Background/RP flavor.
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I have Running Swimming and Climbing as Background/RP flavor.
Picking these up as part of the Athletics skill group will also save you some points...and get Gymnastics as a freebie thrown in :)
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Running, swimming, and climbing do come up. Sure if your stats are awesome enough you can default to them but I have to make run, swim, and climb tests often enough in the game that they are kind of core skills for everyone to take. Also I just can't comprehend someone growing up and not having at least run and climb, swim I can accept since not everyone lives near water or has the opportunity to learn. If I wasn't running or climbing somewhere as a kid I was riding a bike probably off a home made jump.
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Well sure, running and swimming is one thing, but doing it at an athletic, competitive level is another. I'm not saying they aren't useful skills, just that not having a point in it doesn't mean you don't know how to run. I would imagine that most runners don't do triathlons in their spare time.
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Well sure, running and swimming is one thing, but doing it at an athletic, competitive level is another. I'm not saying they aren't useful skills, just that not having a point in it doesn't mean you don't know how to run. I would imagine that most runners don't do triathlons in their spare time.
Not having any formal training means you're as athletically capable(/incapable) as every other numpty who defaults to attributes while walking around on the street.
However if it's your job (as a Combat Medic) to hoon around the battlefield on foot to perform first aid, then running, swimming and climbing are pretty solid choices.
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Also when defaulting and your stats aren't troll you might only be throwing 2-3 dice on a climb test. That is easy to fail and not to hard to glitch on, same with running do you want to make a burst of speed but trip over a crack in the sidewalk? It is a different system but not to long ago my group was playing a Cthulhu like game using the savage world rules. I didn't have climb, I was frantically clawing away trying to get on to the roof of the van as zombies approached. I finally got on the roof by the time the fight was over, if the people with me weren't such good shots with their shotguns I'd of been dead. Honestly it was funny as hell, but most SR teams are supposed to play a bit different than that.
The thing is these skills not only come up but lots of times when they come up you really need to succeed. Fairly often they are do or die moments, and yes edge is awesome for when this happens I'd rather save my edge for things a bit more important than running fast to patch bob, or hop the fence before security arrives.
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Well sure, running and swimming is one thing, but doing it at an athletic, competitive level is another. I'm not saying they aren't useful skills, just that not having a point in it doesn't mean you don't know how to run. I would imagine that most runners don't do triathlons in their spare time.
Not having any formal training means you're as athletically capable(/incapable) as every other numpty who defaults to attributes while walking around on the street.
However if it's your job (as a Combat Medic) to hoon around the battlefield on foot to perform first aid, then running, swimming and climbing are pretty solid choices.
It is my job, lol. I guess that's what I'm saying: it's one thing to be physically fit, but another to specifically train. I run, workout, etc., but I don't " train" as a runner. Now I am thinking of trying the barefoot thing and a marathon or two now that I have some free time, but that's not my level. Like I said, I'm not knocking the skills themselves, just curious about the choice. If someone brings me a character with those three skills, I'm gonna ask if they do this recreationally. Traditionally, a military background doesn't teach you to climb, swim, etc. Those are things you pursue on your own or a special outfit does. So I was just curious.
For me I don't look at things in terms of maxing dice pools. I look at the character, the background, and I expect that everything has an explanation. Also, I've got a house rule skill group for military characters. It's military firearms, your specialty, and the " fitness" . Fitness is used to reflect your being in shape and is used for physical actions. I may not know how to climb with gear, but I can damn sure climb over a 10 foot wall if need be, lol. That a just me, though.
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Thanks. Actually, I am former Army Combat Medic that spent his time in FSBs and an evac driver. So there is a slightly different role than the platoon "Doc". But with the changes to add spells, I was going for the Shadowrun version of the DnD cleric. Your right of course about the leadership point buy.
If your D&D cleric is healing people, you've made a horribly, horribly sub-optimal character.
Just saying...
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Thanks. Actually, I am former Army Combat Medic that spent his time in FSBs and an evac driver. So there is a slightly different role than the platoon "Doc". But with the changes to add spells, I was going for the Shadowrun version of the DnD cleric. Your right of course about the leadership point buy.
If your D&D cleric is healing people, you've made a horribly, horribly sub-optimal character.
Just saying...
That sort of depends on the edition.
As for climb etc. A 1 or 2 in climb doesn't really mean you are training professionally to be a climber, it can easily mean you climbed a lot of trees as a kid. Running skill doesn't mean you are trying out for a marathon it just means you run a bit more often than a desk jockey who never hits the gym. Now if you are pushing those skills into 3-4 range then yes it means you are heavily trained in them, but 1-2 is nothing. Another reason I hate the capped 1-6 range a single die thematically means a lot but it is not mechanically backed up by it.
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Thanks. Actually, I am former Army Combat Medic that spent his time in FSBs and an evac driver. So there is a slightly different role than the platoon "Doc". But with the changes to add spells, I was going for the Shadowrun version of the DnD cleric. Your right of course about the leadership point buy.
If your D&D cleric is healing people, you've made a horribly, horribly sub-optimal character.
Just saying...
That sort of depends on the edition.
As for climb etc. A 1 or 2 in climb doesn't really mean you are training professionally to be a climber, it can easily mean you climbed a lot of trees as a kid. Running skill doesn't mean you are trying out for a marathon it just means you run a bit more often than a desk jockey who never hits the gym. Now if you are pushing those skills into 3-4 range then yes it means you are heavily trained in them, but 1-2 is nothing. Another reason I hate the capped 1-6 range a single die thematically means a lot but it is not mechanically backed up by it.
Yeah, it's only suboptimal in AD&D, Challenger Series, 2nd Ed, 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder, and 4E so far.
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Not having any formal training means you're as athletically capable(/incapable) as every other numpty who defaults to attributes while walking around on the street.
However if it's your job (as a Combat Medic) to hoon around the battlefield on foot to perform first aid, then running, swimming and climbing are pretty solid choices.
It is my job, lol. I guess that's what I'm saying: it's one thing to be physically fit, but another to specifically train. I run, workout, etc., but I don't " train" as a runner. Now I am thinking of trying the barefoot thing and a marathon or two now that I have some free time, but that's not my level. Like I said, I'm not knocking the skills themselves, just curious about the choice. If someone brings me a character with those three skills, I'm gonna ask if they do this recreationally. Traditionally, a military background doesn't teach you to climb, swim, etc. Those are things you pursue on your own or a special outfit does. So I was just curious.
For me I don't look at things in terms of maxing dice pools. I look at the character, the background, and I expect that everything has an explanation. Also, I've got a house rule skill group for military characters. It's military firearms, your specialty, and the " fitness" . Fitness is used to reflect your being in shape and is used for physical actions. I may not know how to climb with gear, but I can damn sure climb over a 10 foot wall if need be, lol. That a just me, though.
On SR4A p.119 it defined the skill ratings in terms of absolute incompetence through to OMG you're a Legend at that!
Have a skill at 1/2 is the Beginner/Novice level respectively which means at best you may have run high-school track on the athletics stream.
So to have the entire Athletics Group at 1 (which is cheaper than buying up the combination of Run/Swim/Climb individually) means that you may have been a member of a Gym or Little-League club many moons ago. And in your all-round experience, you picked up enough Gymnastics knowledge to do a cartwheel or a somersault as well (Gymnastics being part of the Athletics grouping).
If you have a House rule for Military PC's in regards to this 'Fitness' component, all cool. I don't really understand what it relates to, as 'Physical actions' is a very vague term that may already be covered under existing skills (such as those in the Athletics group)
If you need to climb a 10' wall, mechanically in SR4 a decent attribute will let you default to it, and a moderate attribute will get you there eventually, but it's a risk.
And personally, my army boot camp had an obstacle course component (and also involved rappelling with harness) so it's a logical choice to have the Athletics group for any PC who's been through at least that much training....
** Don't know what you yanks get at basic training, but if there isn't a nice muddy, cross-country obstacle course complete with walls, fences, barbed wire, rappelling and a clothed swim, then I think that's an oversight ;)
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Thanks. Actually, I am former Army Combat Medic that spent his time in FSBs and an evac driver. So there is a slightly different role than the platoon "Doc". But with the changes to add spells, I was going for the Shadowrun version of the DnD cleric. Your right of course about the leadership point buy.
If your D&D cleric is healing people, you've made a horribly, horribly sub-optimal character.
Just saying...
That sort of depends on the edition.
Yeah, it's only suboptimal in AD&D, Challenger Series, 2nd Ed, 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder, and 4E so far.
Right... I'll just say you play a very different D&D than I do if people never need healing in a fight. I think the 3e versions are the only editions where clerics really focused on fighting without healing and they still had to play medic in almost every game I played in. 4e is a bit different in that you take actions while healing.
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I didn't say that the rest of the party didn't need healing, I said that a healing cleric was a suboptimal build.
The smart bet for healing in 2nd Ed was the druid (or other specialist priest with Goodberry), augmented by a paladin (or bard with healing spells). Even better, a psychometabolist focuseed on regen and injury transference. Much the same in AD&D. Challenger it made the most sense to have a wizard with a wand as your main healer (sounds wrong but that's how it worked).
I've definitely played a very different game of D&D than you have, but I've also definitely played in exactly the kind of game you describe... I've even been the token healbot from time to time. Very sub-optimal.
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Ah, but "suboptimal" doesn't mean the character is bad. Especially if it's a good story. ;)
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And personally, my army boot camp had an obstacle course component (and also involved rappelling with harness) so it's a logical choice to have the Athletics group for any PC who's been through at least that much training....
** Don't know what you yanks get at basic training, but if there isn't a nice muddy, cross-country obstacle course complete with walls, fences, barbed wire, rappelling and a clothed swim, then I think that's an oversight ;)
All my military PCs have Athletics at 2 (Just makes sense flavorwise if not crunchwise)
** Don't know what you yanks get at basic training, but if there isn't a nice muddy, cross-country obstacle course complete with walls, fences, barbed wire, rappelling and a clothed swim, then I think that's an oversight ;)
Hell we had to go through that just to get to the mess hall 8)
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Oh we rappel, and climb stuff and crawl through mud. But the rappelling is done with all kinds of safety people and we're taught just enough, technically, to not get ourselves killed. You can go to advanced schools for more training, but many people don't use it afterwards. They get the badge and go home. I guess I always viewed a "1" as you went and hung out with a friend and didn't die when he took you on the climbing wall.
The fitness thing is used to represent being in shape and athletic without having the particular skill. Basically extra default dice. I think of it as that little gut check inside that says no matter how hard this is it isn't as bad as that time....so on and so forth.
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There's also a very real chance that said discharged veteran is not exactly the paragon of health as a 35 year old contractor that he was as a 30 year old E-5, or a 19 year old recruit. He doesn't spend as much time on PT so his physical stats aren't what they were, and he hasn't run the O-course in 3 years, so his Athletics has atrophied a point. His Perception, Automatics, and technical skills might still be top of the pile, but age and lack of practice catches up to everyone.
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True. I know I ain't as young as I used to be. In 13 years an 11:30 2 mile turned into a 16:30 suckfest, lol. So off topic, has anyone ever instituted age mechanics in SR?
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True. I know I ain't as young as I used to be. In 13 years an 11:30 2 mile turned into a 16:30 suckfest, lol. So off topic, has anyone ever instituted age mechanics in SR?
We investigated, but didn't bother.
If someone makes a 400BP hacker who's 16 years old, they'll build prioritise the stats accordingly
If someone builds a 400BP 45-year old private-eye, they'll prioritise the stats accordingly
No reason to mechanically penalise someone for choosing a different flavour of character
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Bearing in mind that I have yet to play a single game of Shadowrun..... One thing that I like about it is that it seams you have to "work" at building a "bad" PC. Note that there is a difference between building a suboptimal PC, and a Bad PC.
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Someone worked really hard at some of the sample characters *coughcough Weapons Specialist coughcough,* then.
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So you are not a fan of the pre-gens? ;D
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Most of the pre-gens are... odd. Either their skillsets make no sense, their gear lists don't match their skills, or the BP spent doesn't match the actual BP when you go through the books. To be honest, when I first started playing Shadowrun, I was shown them as an example of what NOT to do.
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They make quick and easy npc's though.
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And then when the hothead in the group decides to fight them, suddenly you're scrambling to make them viable in combat.
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Yeah, a lot of the pregens are bizarre in many ways and also suck. The weapons specialist is probably one of the worst. If you pick the WEAPONS SPECIALIST, it is probably because you want to, you know, be good with weapons and shooting people. She isn't, at all - she's one of the worst combatants.
The smuggler is pretty funny too, because you know what she can't do? Smuggle jack or shit across a border. She can do an eeeeeeh job as a VR joystick rigger, but she sure as shit isn't getting past any border crossings with a 2 charisma and no con.
The mages are all built in highly stupid fashions and are all idiots, although it's a bit harder to completely screw up a magician than some of the other concepts so all of them are actually pretty useful (relative to the other sample characters) by dint of being able to summon spirits that are better at life than most of the other characters.
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Heh, I actually created an Adept Smuggler and Wheelman not even two games ago. He was a unique take on the Smuggler route, because he thought he was completely mundane, and that the reason he was such a great driver was because of his personal skills (it was actually due to adept power augmentations).
But yeah, I'm of the opinion that the pregen characters are actually a bit of a sick joke on us by the guys who wrote up the book.
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Do any of you have a list of VIABLE pre-gen's PC's I can hand out to my group on monday?
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If EVERYONE is playing a pregen, you can do it OK by yanking the ultra shitty people.
The Combat Mage, Drone Rigger, Enforcer, Face (in fairness, only by dint of being the only face), Gunslinger Adept, Hacker, Occult Investigator, Radical Eco-Shaman, Street Samurai, Street Shaman, and Technomancer are all functional characters, in the sense that they have a job and can do it.
The Covert Ops Specialist and Weapons Specialist both have jobs, but suck at them. The Sprawl Ganger I don't know WTF he was supposed to be good at, but he isn't good at anything except sucking and being useless. The Smuggler can't smuggle shit, but is an acceptable getaway driver; however, I don't know how many players want to play 'wait in the van while everyone else goes shadowrunning.' (the drone rigger, by contrast, can send drones along). The Bounty Hunter is not very good at hunting people and even worse at winning fights when he finds them; it's particularly bad because he's similar to the Enforcer but a lot less effective.
There are a few problems of note, though. The Techomancer is just blatantly better at hacking than the Hacker and the Hacker can't do anything else, so if both of them see play the Hacker's player will be sad. The Face is useless at everything but Facing (and the Technomancer and Hacker are similarly matrix-only), so if they see play you'll want an adventure that makes sure their one trick is useful. The Radical Eco-Shaman and the Street Shaman are very similar characters with a lot of overlap; which one is "better" is debateable but you probably don't want them both in a party.
Another thing you should do is look up and write down stuff like:
What do your spells do? (Make photocopies of them for the players)
What are the total armor values of these characters (Write these down)
What are the stats of this gun/vehicle/drone? Write these down too.
Things really go bad if you start mixing the pregens with characters people actually make; pretty much everyone who sits down and decides to make a face will make one who completely embarrasses the pregen Face and leaves him with nothing to do, for example.
I've been working on a set of premade Archetype characters (more with Missions in mind but usable by anyone), but they are not quite done yet.
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Thanks for the advice. Will do.