Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Beansidhe on <09-15-10/2312:58>
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Reading the spell and just want to make sure I understand it. So two questions:
The force has to equal or exceed the Augmented value of the Attribute to be affected. That is before the spell being cast, correct? If I have a Body 10 I don't need to cast at Force 15 to raise my Body to 15, only a Force 10 to be able to affect the stat, right?
The spell is limited to the normal maximum augmented characteristics, right? Some abilities mention that those apply, others do not. Just trying to make sure one way or the other.
Thanks for helping (again).
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Correct. You cast the Force 10 spell and your attribute goes up the number of hits you get.
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just to be sure, I would like clarification on this as well.
If I have a body 10, cast the spell at force 10 and get 10 hits, I now have a 20 body? or is the gain limited by some other thing besides spell force?
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It's limited by the augmented maximum rating for your metatype (e.g., Body 9 for normal humans).
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SR4a, p82:
Augmentation (either through technology or magic) can allow a character to exceed their metatype maximum to a certain point.
I take this as meaning (RAI?) that the absolute maximum you can go is your metatype maximum, even with the spell. So, if the troll sammie has his Bod amped up to twelve, casting this spell on him can only increase it to the maximum of 15, no matter then number of hits.
[Ninja'd as I post! Bradd's rep goes up! ;)]
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I think thats like the 3rd time I've seen you get post ninja'd. Gonna have to change your name to SlowJack. ;D <3
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Famous last words...
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I think thats like the 3rd time I've seen you get post ninja'd. Gonna have to change your name to SlowJack. ;D <3
When nine hundred years old *you* reach, look as good *you* will not, hmm?
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Thanks for the compliment, FastJack. :)
Related to this, there's also a limit on how much you can boost a skill: 1.5 times the current rating, rounded down. (Note that's the current rating, not the maximum rating of 6 or 7.) That case is a little trickier, because you need to distinguish between dice pool modifiers and skill modifiers. Things like the synthacardium add a dice pool modifier. Things like the adept Improved Physical Attribute power add a skill modifier and are subject to the cap.
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Sorry for the up but:
Increase [attribute], force has to beequal or exceed...
I see the same question in multiple forum (a britain one and a french one ). With now clear answer...
So i think it could be very important to clarify this state in the next fake.
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I've always thought it was pretty clear. The augumented attribute maximum is precisely what it says it is.
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The confusion isn't over the attribute maximum, it's the part where the spell's Force must match the (augmented) value of the attribute. Does it mean the value before or after casting? There are weird consequences either way. If you use the value before casting, then drain values are screwy: It's easier to raise 6->9 than 7->9, although in practice the drain value will be trivial anyway. However, if you use value after casting, the spell is extremely difficult to use with sustaining foci. Overall, I think there are fewer problems in practice with using the value before casting, but it's not ideal.
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Hmmm... Maybe it could work like that:
To affect the target, the spell is cast with a Threshold equal to the augmented attribute value. Hits above the threshold are added to the attribute, and the increase cannot exceed both Force, and the augmented maximum.
So, casting Increase Charisma on Joe Runner who has Charisma 3 would need 3+ hits, with the excess above three being the bonus he will receive.
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That's actually roughly how I thought it worked at first! The end result is that the gross hits on the dice equal the new attribute value.
Problems with this approach: It breaks the rule that gross hits can never exceed Force, and it requires very high rolls on the Spellcasting test to get any noticeable improvement.
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Increase Initiative also breaks the rule, giving anyone +3 Reaction and +3 IP's with four hits total.
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I don't see how that breaks the rule; you need to cast Increase Reflexes at Force 4 to get the maximum result.
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Okay, here's the words for Increase [Attribute]:
The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the attribute being affected. The attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored.
Since you have to declare the Force before you case the spell (SR4A, pg. 183, Step 2), you don't know what the stat will be after rolling, therefore you have to use the stat pre-rolling.
So if Johnny has Cha 3 and you cast Increase Charisma on him. you must cast at Force 3+.
Casting Improved Intuition on Sarah, who has Int 3 (5), you have to cast at Force 5+, since the Force must meet or exceed the augmented rating.
There is no threshold that has to be met; therefore, each hit (up to the maximum of Force, SR4A, pg 182) is added to the existing Attribute Rating. Additionally, no exemption to the rule of maximum augmented ratings is specified, so if you hit the augmented max before you hit the Force of the spell, additional hits are wasted.
Casting the spell on Johnny at Force 3, you get 5 hits. Discarding 2, that leaves 3 hits, increasing Johnny's Charisma to 6.
For Sarah, the Improved Intuition spell garners a total of 4 hits which would be enough to bring her augmented Intuition up to 9. However, as a troll, her maximum augmented Intuition is 7, so two hits are tossed aside.
@Kot: How does Increase Initiative break the rules? To keep four hits, you have to cast at Force 4. Force limits maximum hits, not maximum net hits.
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The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the attribute being affected. The attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored.
Since you have to declare the Force before you case the spell (SR4A, pg. 183, Step 2), you don't know what the stat will be after rolling, therefore you have to use the stat pre-rolling.
To play devil's advocate: You don't need to know the final rating to apply this rule. You declare Force, cast the spell, and apply net hits. The final result cannot exceed Force, just as gross hits cannot exceed Force.
That said, I think your interpretation is correct. I think the spell might be under-costed, but then again, if the drain is non-trivial then more of the weirdness comes to light.
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The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the attribute being affected. The attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored.
Since you have to declare the Force before you case the spell (SR4A, pg. 183, Step 2), you don't know what the stat will be after rolling, therefore you have to use the stat pre-rolling.
To play devil's advocate: You don't need to know the final rating to apply this rule. You declare Force, cast the spell, and apply net hits. The final result cannot exceed Force, just as gross hits cannot exceed Force.
To respond to the devil, if the RAI is for it to be the post-casting augmented attribute, then an errata is required. The spell says Force meets or exceeds (augmented) Attribute Rating, which is defined as my Attribute Rating + any current augmentations. If the spell were meant to be based off your after-casting attribute, it would read more like the following:
"The Force must equal or exceed the augmented Attribute Rating to which the caster is attempting to increase the Attribute. The attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, but no higher than the Force at which the spell was cast."
That said, I think your interpretation is correct. I think the spell might be under-costed, but then again, if the drain is non-trivial then more of the weirdness comes to light.
Keep in mind that low Force means easily dispelled, a few times not realizing there was someone/thing capable of counterspelling and your group should start raising the Force of their spells (and therefore the Drain) higher than necessary to cast the spell.
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The spell's DV is ½F-2, so you can cast it at Force 7 before the drain budges from 1 box. That's plenty high enough to resist dispelling, and it's high enough for anyone who isn't already superhuman.
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The spell's DV is ½F-2, so you can cast it at Force 7 before the drain budges from 1 box.
Force 8 actually, you round down when halving the force.
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Right, that's what I meant to say: The DV is still only 1 at Force 7.
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Fair enough.