Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Jeeves on <03-31-11/1904:42>
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I had a player pose the question of functional wings as a surge quality.
Here is how the quality stands.
Positive Metagenetic Quality
Functional Wings
15-20 BP
The character possesses a pair of wings capable of sustaining her in flight through an innate manipulation of mana similar to that of Oriental Drakes. This grants the character access to the "Flight" skill described on page (#) of (book). Flight speed is double normal speeds for that character.
A character who is interrupted (by a successful attack that does more than (body) damage) in flight must make an Reaction + Flight (3) test to avoid falling to the ground.
A character with wings may use them to slow a fall, adding her ranks in Flight to the dice pool to resist fall damage.
Takeoff is considered a complex action, and requires a Strength + Flight (2) test, applying appropriate modifiers. As the wings mostly use mana for lift rather than air, background count applies modifiers equal to the background count to flight tests. More mana in the air, more to fly on. Less mana, harder to fly. This manipulation of mana is only capable of the wings themselves. They do not grant a character a magic attribute without purchase of the appropriate quality.
Purchasing Wings also gives the "Distinctive Style" quality, but does not give the points for said quality.
Wings may grant social test modifiers depending on things like wing shape, wing color, character metatype and the other person's personal views. For instance, some people might see a person with wings and believe them to be angelic, while others may see them as abominations attempting to impersonate divine creatures and so on.
Wings come in two basic styles: Feathery and Leathery. Feather color is usually similar to the character's hair color, though not always. Leathery wings are typically a few shades darker than the character's natural skin tone, though not always.
Wings are compatible with the Mood hair metagenetic quality, allowing them to change color as mood hair would.
A character attempting to carry heavy objects receives a modifier to flight tests appropriate to the weight and bulk of the object. MEtahuman bodies for example, give a modifier equal to -(body).
Wings make most body armor and other clothing unwearable, causing a +200% cost to body armor to allow for customization.
For 15 BP, the character posesses wings that are not under her complete control, similar to that of a balance tail. The wings may twitch, ruffle, and stretch according to cues such as stress, offense, fear and so on, granting +1 for others to gauge the character's emotional state.
For 20 BP, the character has complete control over her wings, and also receives a +1 to flight tests.
Still looking for improvement ideas.
Possibilities: Since the wings use mana to fly, I'm considering the posibility of the use of the wings to make a mana "wind" that can affect astral beings.
I'm calling this attack a "gust" because the whole thing reminds me of those terribly annoying pird pokemon.
Gust:Complex action. roll Strength + Flight vs opponent's reaction. net hits propel target as many meters and renders target prone. attack is treated as a knockdown attack and does no damage, though items blown by the wind or things the target may land in may cause damage.
I'm thinking of just making some new metatypes with wings or something,
Humans with wings: Icari. (after Icarus.)
Elves with wings: Valkyries, Harpies (derogatory)
Orks with wings: Gargoyles. (thanks to whoever said that.)
Dwarves with Wings: Cherubs
Trolls with Wings: I gotta come up with a name for those.
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I had a player pose the question of functional wings as a surge quality.
I was thinking
Positive quality
Wings (25 BP)
The character sprouts a fully functional wings, granting the character the ability of flight.
does this sound too expensive? too cheap? any ideas on how to improve it?
A) it should also grant the PC the 'Distinctive Style' Negative quality for free (like some other Surge qualities)
B) As for how cheap it is, depends on your style of campaign.If you're mainly ground urban based, is seems a bit harsh. If you're mainly skyscraper/Mountains/flight based, ~20-25BP sounds about right.
C) Make sure to specify that the PC can learn the Flying skill (as per the critter power). This brings it in line with current mechanics
D) Make sure falling damage rules are clearly understood by yourself and PC, especially the consequences of stopping flight. Does he need to be:
- Paralysed?
- Knocked Unconscious?
- Any chance to arrest the fall?
- Crash tests like a car?
Otherwise, the first time they get interrupted while flying, you'll have to on-the-fly house-rule when/where the PC starts to fall, which will slow the game right down....
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Way back, in another system, the rule was flying creatures fell/couldn't fly once they lost a certain % of health. Something like that may work; At serious +, wings, needed muscles, etc are too banged (er... shot. ) up for flight.
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what about the distinctive Style ?
What about the additional lifestyle Cost because of custom Fit Equipment?
What about the Freak Factor ?
what about Religious Fanatics ?
with a YinYangDance
Medicineman
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Okay, here's an updated description
Positive Metagenetic Quality
Functional Wings
15-20 BP
The character possesses a pair of wings capable of sustaining her in flight. This grants the character access to the "Flight" skill described on page (#) of (book).
A character who is interrupted (by a successful attack that does more than (body) damage) in flight must make an Reaction + Flight (3) test to avoid falling to the ground.
A character with wings may use them to slow a fall, adding her ranks in Flight to the dice pool to resist fall damage.
Takeoff is considered a complex action, and requires a Strength + Flight (2) test, applying appropriate modifiers.
+1 Character is running into the wind at takeoff.
+2 for stronger winds
-1 Character is attempting to take off vertically.
(i'll need suggestions for other modifiers)
Purchasing Wings also gives the "Destictive Style" quality, but does not give the points for said quality.
Wings may grant social test modifiers depending on things like wing shape, wing color, character metatype and the other person's personal views. For instance, some people might see a person with wings and believe them to be angelic, while others may see them as abominations attempting to impersonate devine creatures and so on.
Wings come in two basic styles: Feathery and Leathery. Feather color is usually similar to the character's hair color, though not always. Leathery wings are typically a few shades darker than the character's natural skin tone, though not always.
Wings are compatible with the Mood hair metagenetic quality, allowing them to change color as mood hair would.
A character attempting to carry heavy objects receives a modifier to flight tests appropriate to the weight and bulk of the object. MEtahuman bodies for example, give a modifier equal to -(body).
Wings make most body armor and other clothing unwearable, causing a +200% cost to body armor to allow for customization.
For 15 BP, the character posesses wings that are not under her complete control, similar to that of a balance tail. The wings may twitch, ruffle, and stretch according to cues such as stress, offense, fear and so on, granting +1 for others to gauge the character's emotional state.
For 20 BP, the character has complete control over her wings, and also receives a +1 to flight tests.
Possible ideas:
wings may grant a +1 to impact armor to attacks from behind or when wings are draped around the character.
Character's posessing wings may receive a -2 dice pool modifier to resist avian flu (ha)
I'd love other suggestions.
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maybe two versions, one for gliding and using thermal lift and the other for full control and wing flapping. The gliding version can be adopted from the wingsuit in War!.
considering the mass of a metahuman (300kg trolls oO) Wings should be massive...there are planes lighter than trolls...
considering what I found at wiki:
The male of this huge bird is possibly the heaviest living flying animal, alongside the similarly sized Kori Bustard. An adult male typically is 90–110 cm (3.0–3.6 ft) long with a 2.1–2.5 m (6.9–8.2 ft) wingspan and usually weighs from 10 to 16 kg (22 to 35 lb).
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What's the base flight speed? Equal to ground speed?
maybe two versions, one for gliding and using thermal lift and the other for full control and wing flapping. The gliding version can be adopted from the wingsuit in War!.
considering the mass of a metahuman (300kg trolls oO) Wings should be massive...there are planes lighter than trolls...
considering what I found at wiki:
The male of this huge bird is possibly the heaviest living flying animal, alongside the similarly sized Kori Bustard. An adult male typically is 90–110 cm (3.0–3.6 ft) long with a 2.1–2.5 m (6.9–8.2 ft) wingspan and usually weighs from 10 to 16 kg (22 to 35 lb).
To make something like metahuman wings work, you would either need to pair it with a quality like "Infirm" or "Low Pain Tolerance" to reflect the idea that he has hollow bones & other adaptations to reduce his weight; or, you need to admit that the physics just isn't there, it's a magical trait allowing supernatural flight & not worrying too much about the laws of physics beyond the basics Jeeves already provided.
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From that viewpoint, the flight itself is more supernaturally based, similar to how oriental drakes levitate on mana, but the wings are what propel the character.
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from a Marvel Comic Forum where they discussed Angel from the X-Men I learned that a Human with Wings neede Huge Wings to be able to Fly. So the Wings need a Wing Span of 10-12 Meters (or so) but that is way to much for Shadowrun but You could reduce it with "Magically buffed Flight" so they only need to be at least 3 Meters from Back to Wingtip(still very Large but not unproportionally)
so If You attack or distrackt someone with the Wingtip it should have a reach of at Least 2 if not 3
....Why not make it an elfen Subspecies (they are naturally slim so Its even more believable)
A character attempting to carry heavy objects receives a modifier to flight tests appropriate to the weight and bulk of the object. MEtahuman bodies for example, give a modifier equal to -(body).
I wouldn't allow any weight (but personal gear) to be carried. ImO its already stressfull enough for the Wings to carry the Body itself.
Gliding might be possible with Encumberance but not Flight or Lift-Off
wings may grant a +1 to impact armor to attacks from behind or when wings are draped around the character.
Wings are extremely Brittle and Fragile and should be more of a Disadvantage .Instead of added Protection they should be a vulnerability (like Double a Chance for critical wounds like broken Wingbones or crippled Wings...)
He who Dances with Wings
Medicineman
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....Why not make it an elfen Subspecies (they are naturally slim so Its even more believable)
To avoid lawsuits from Wizards of the Coast over the "Avariel" of Forgotten Realms (feather-winged flying elves) and the "fey-ri" (leather/demon-winged flying elves)?
Yeah, I know, no copyright on the idea of elf + wing, but the comment needed to be made for the sake of cross-game humor.
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Gargoyles.
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Gargoyles.
Orcs with wings?
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Seems to me, IMHO, that without some magical ability tossed into the mix, your really defying physics without some extraordinary changes to biology. At best without biological changes the wings would allow coasting, maybe a sprint and glide. Even then the tendons and chest muscles would need to be huge compared to regular meta-human. The wings would have to either be huge, say 15+ meters, or shorter wings that flap with incredible speed but either way a required biological redesign large muscle groups, chest redesign, etc. Toss in hollowed bone structure to reduce weight, now your taking more damage from ballistic and impact damage. You end up really creating a new race of meta-humanity. Which doesn't sound so bad. Some avian race to add flavor to the mix. The weight of the person(?) with wings has significant impact on the wings.
Might be better to run with a ShapeShifter who becomes a meta-human, rather than the other way.
*Google search turns up interesting answers to this question.
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The wings would have to either be huge, say 15+ meters,
I seem to recall Da Vinci calculated these requirements to be about 4 metres, with the assumption that a human's chest could contain the bones and musculature required to keep proportions with birds....
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Is Drake-Flight Magical or is it from the wings?
We have a Precedent here.
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The wings would have to either be huge, say 15+ meters,
I seem to recall Da Vinci calculated these requirements to be about 4 metres, with the assumption that a human's chest could contain the bones and musculature required to keep proportions with birds....
Yah, and the musculature required would give you a bigger chest than even the world's most busty woman.
-k
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In the description of oriental drakes, it says they can fly, but they don't have wings.
Oriental Drakes resemble small Eastern dragons or sirrushes.
They have no wings, but can still fly at twice their normal move-
ment rate as though swimming through the air (through a form
of innate magical levitation).
emphasis mine.
I would rule that the wings give the character a similar advantage, though they grant no magic attribute. Also, if the wings kind of use mana as the substance on which they fly, it also creates interesting situations like modifiers for attempting to fly in varied background counts.
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The wings would have to either be huge, say 15+ meters,
I seem to recall Da Vinci calculated these requirements to be about 4 metres, with the assumption that a human's chest could contain the bones and musculature required to keep proportions with birds....
According to real world usage, hang gliders seem to range from 3.3 meters to a little over 6.
source
http://www.willswing.com/support/gliderPackLengths.asp
So right around there, and yeah, barrel chested would be an apt description to be able to take off from the ground with them.
As it stands I like flight, I just played a Pixie though. Nice and built in, however they're listed as using magic to help enable it as well I think.
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Troll's could be called Belrogs or Deamons
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I love the belrog idea.
I told the other members of my group about these and they loved it.
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its Balrog
with a corrective Dance
Medicineman
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that would be copyright infringment lol
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that would be copyright infringment lol
You could go with Balor.
Pretty sure it was a Celtic myth long before TSR/WotC included it in DnD.
Balrog I don't think existied before Tolkien made up the name (and similarities suggest he was thinking of Balors at the time :)
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I'll make it Balor. I like it. Winged metavariants are now welcome at my table.
some other things i was thinking. The wings could possibly act as sort of dual natured antennae. They manipulate mana, perhaps they grant a character to sense magic touching the wings in an almost tactile sense?
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You could go with Balor.
Pretty sure it was a Celtic myth long before TSR/WotC included it in DnD.
Balrog I don't think existied before Tolkien made up the name (and similarities suggest he was thinking of Balors at the time :)
The Irish version of Balor is, um, very very different than the cancer game version.
-k
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You could go with Balor.
Pretty sure it was a Celtic myth long before TSR/WotC included it in DnD.
Balrog I don't think existied before Tolkien made up the name (and similarities suggest he was thinking of Balors at the time :)
The Irish version of Balor is, um, very very different than the cancer game version.
-k
Yes, but celtic myths had a great habit of...erm... creative license?
Fomorians are described as giants in one myth, abandoned elf-folk in another (all of which were midgets) and the Balor if I recall correctly, was the evil king of same who could slay with a glance.
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Not very much at all like balrogs or D&D balors, though.
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Not very much at all like balrogs or D&D balors, though.
Depends which version of description you take..
Celtic elf-folk often had wings.
Fomorian were oft described as ugly giants
Balor in particular could slay with a glance
Mix 'em together in time-honoured celtic tradition and voila. Custiom-made DnD Balor :P
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But no iconic flaming whip and sword!
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But no iconic flaming whip and sword!
Now that bit is only iconic from TSR onwards ;)
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I'll make it Balor. I like it. Winged metavariants are now welcome at my table.
some other things i was thinking. The wings could possibly act as sort of dual natured antennae. They manipulate mana, perhaps they grant a character to sense magic touching the wings in an almost tactile sense?
Perhaps granting a bonus to rolls made to sense that you've passed through some kind of mana effect, or that a spirit has crossed through your aura.
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Just went about reading through here a bit... And I have to wonder: Why would the wings require the growing of an entirely new pair of limbs? Wings can just as easily appear upon existing limbs with the rearranging of the joints in fingers and the wrist. Not only this, but why a +200% cost increase when Bone Spikes pose essentially the same issue and only cause a 10% cost increase?
Also: Strength requirements for the wings to actually be functional would differ from metavariant based upon the size and overall density and mass. Trolls would require a ridiculous amount of strength, for instance, to acquire liftoff, whereas an elf would have a much easier time due to their light frames.
These details are something to think about when you're coming up with such a major quality..
Other things to account for are:
Can the character acquire multiple pairs of wings through either: Shiva Arms, or stacking qualities?
What is the maximum flight time based upon the Strength/size ratio?
If someone overexerts themselves while flying, will they have to roll to resist damage?
I'd say that you could take about 10-15 BP for wings that are based upon the existing arms of the character, with negatives to intricate manipulation, which would negate the cost increase, while disabling the ability to wear gloves of any sort.
20-25 would suffice for an entirely new set of limbs designed for flight. Though I believe that the appearance of the wings should not differ too much from the character that they belong to(Unless of course they want to pay the usual snowflake taxes to be an angel.).
These are all just a few quick thoughts on the subject.
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You could go with Balor.
Pretty sure it was a Celtic myth long before TSR/WotC included it in DnD.
It is, but the Balor is a Celtic beast that could kill its enemies with its gaze. My mythology encyclopedia doesn't say any more, but wikipedia mentions that some versions have the Balor as more of a construct and required an operator to open its eye like a lid in order to use its killing power.
I'll grant that I only have one Celtic mythology encyclopedia (the other books I have mentioning Celtic myths give it just a couple paragraphs), but I don't think any of them have flying creatures. I think that other sources of mythology would have to be examined for folklore basis.
As to the wing topic, Flight is mentioned as a skill Free Spirits have (they technically fly instead of run) in Street Magic, and falls under the Athletics skill group. I don't think it would be unreasonable to just set that as a skill open to characters with this quality.
I would drop the 'gust' ability, however. There's already enough involved in the wings before trying to give them innate magical attacks.
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I would drop the 'gust' ability, however. There's already enough involved in the wings before trying to give them innate magical attacks.
Agreed. It seems complex enough and it would almost have to raise the cost.
On another note, the quality itself probably includes the modifications to the body to allow flight. I've done research on flight and birds while building my own version of flight, and lighter bones do not necessarily translate into a lower body. It's a matter of how they are lightened.
Here's the one we've been using in my game for quite some time now. Thought I'd post it for a diffrent take on the power.
Wings (Redux)
Cost: 10 or 20 BP
The character possesses a set of wings with a total span equal to three times their height.
Bone density or lacing will render the character to heavy to fly or glide.
At 10 BP they cannot fly only glide. But they are also immune to falling damage providing that they have room to spread their wings. Their speed is equal to their running speed. If they can catch thermal updrafts they can extend the distance they can glide.
For 20 BP their bodies have undergone radical restructuring to allow true flight. Their bones have reshaped into a honeycomb structure that lightens them by 50% which compensates for their weight of the wings. Weight is equal to the character pre-surge. Increased tensile strength in muscles has resulted in an elevated temperature that makes them easier to spot. They receive a -1D to hide against thermographics. Finally their metabolism increases to provide the energy necessary for flight. Add 20% to lifestyle costs for additional dietary requirements.
They fly at a rate of twice their running speed.
Celerity counts to increase flight speed as well, but leg enhancements do not. Speed can be further increased with a Flight check in the same way running does.
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He resurrected a thread from 2 years ago...
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He resurrected a thread from 2 years ago...
Didn't even notice.
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Threadomancy take flight! ;D :P
Couldn't help it.
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He resurrected a thread from 2 years ago...
I think this image fits.
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For anyone to fly with said wings, you will need some hollow bones.
My guess is that would give the character a -1 to maxi body.
They couldn't carry much weight.
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For anyone to fly with said wings, you will need some hollow bones.
My guess is that would give the character a -1 to maxi body.
They couldn't carry much weight.
That would make sense for Trolls, Orcs, and Humans. But Elves are typically very light, and Dwarves are often quite small.
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The fact that it's explicitly described as a magic phenomena (rather than relying on physical wings, which would need to be 5-8 meters on a standard human) bypasses the need for body modifications like hollow bones.
Sure, that kinda turns the reason into "A Wizard Did It!", but for all of its simulation, Shadowrun tends to err more on the side of the Rule of Cool than the rule of absolute realism.
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Jeeves thanks a lot for this idea it suits the Cthulu I am making as a NPC, but I am doing it with a Vestigial Wings for 5BP as a negative quality like insecticide features, 10 BP positive for gliding wings like the wingsuit from war and 15bp for fully functional magic wings using your descriptions :D
EDIT: Here is my version of the wings feature, what do you guys think?
Functional set of Wings
10-15 BP
A pair of wings grows from the back at the shoulders this may be avian or chiropteran in look. Contrary to the vestigial wings, a Functional set of Wings are fully developed and functional similarly to Eastern Dragons flight methods in a form of magical levitation, this gives the player 1 magic attribute but cannot cast spells or use adept powers unless in addition to wings she takes Adept, Magician or Mystic Adept.
Gliding wings (10 BP), these function similarly to a wing suit (War164) but speed and direction of fall may be controlled, with a glide ratio ranging from 1 meter forward to 1 meter fallen up to 5 meters forward for every meter fallen. Gliding wings use the Parachuting skill (which has its own wings specialisation) and gliding at 1 or 2 meters forward requires a Reaction + Parachuting (3) test upon landing to avoid fall damage upon landing where the damage is equal to 1d6 per 5 meters fallen.
Fully functional wings (15 BP), these give the owner full use of her wings, gaining access to the flight skill (RC88) (which has its own wings specialisation), these wings can glide as above but with a Reaction + Flight (3), these wings allow vertical take-off with a Strength + Flight (5), with modifiers +1 character is running into the wind, +2 for stronger winds, +2 for strong thermal updrafts, jumping from a high ledge or gliding gives a +3, background mana count (SM118) and mana reduction also affects flight and if your magic attribute falls below 1 your wings may only be used for gliding.
A character who is interrupted (by a successful attack that does more than (body) damage) in flight must make an Reaction + Flight (3) test to avoid falling to the ground. A character attempting to carry heavy objects receives a modifier to flight tests appropriate to the weight and bulk of the object. Metahuman bodies for example, give a modifier equal to -(body).
The character’s clothing must accommodate the wings, and he will find it impossible to wear certain items. The Functional set of Wings quality is incompatible with any other wing and back modifications or qualities.