Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: bobo69 on <09-10-10/2336:45>
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So with the eve of the war between Amazonia and Aztlan in Columbia, what do we know:
1. In terms of numbers, I think both sides are preety evenly matched. The Aztlan have better tech and probably more professional but the Amazonians have the edge in magic and in powerful critters.
2. Both sides probably have some secret powerful weapons up their sleeves(blood magic, man eating trees etc.).
Prediction:
I think we will probably have a short a bloody war with both sides loosing a lot of men and material but little real estate will change hands. How short a few months, to a year. The war probably spreads worldwide as Amazonian allied Eco terrorists probalby target Aztechnology assets abroad. I expect theh battle area to be extensively devastated simliliar to the Yucatan. This could possibly trigger and larger war with the CSA & maybe UCAS(on the Amazonian side) & Argentina & maybe Bolivia(on the Aztlan side) causing trouble and both sides are forced to divert forces.
War ends, Corportate court, UN and great powers(Japan, UCAS etc.) intervene to end the conflict.
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We do know this will be a focus of the upcoming War! sourcebook, which will also detail mercenaries and war-torn cities.
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Actually I believe Catalyst mentioned somewhere that it will mostly focus on the war in Columbia with some info on other warzones(and potential ones) all over the world.
However I am really waiting for this one, probalby in the next few months.
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it might also be interesting to point out that the Corp Court has planned to put their space elevator (think that was what they were calling it...sky elevator...ugh i can't remember) in Aztlan territory, so needless to say they'll be paying close attention to this
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I thought the Space elevator was supposed to be in Kenya?
at Mt. Kilimanjaro
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The Mass Driver is at Mt. Kilimanjaro, to be decommissioned once the space elevator is built. Runner's Havens has Jackpoint chat saying a Space Elevator is being worked on in Panama.
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A space elevator? Leave it to the corps to waste billions of nuyen on a glorified vanity project.
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A space elevator? Leave it to the corps to waste billions of nuyen on a glorified vanity project.
Makes getting up to the stations easier... For the corps. I can't imagine what the drek security will be like on that to keep the Shadows at bay.
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the corporate guide also has some info on it however while sifting thru it i couldn't find where i read it
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Makes getting up to the stations easier... For the corps. I can't imagine what the drek security will be like on that to keep the Shadows at bay.
We'll eventually find a way through. We always do. ;D
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Isn't Panama a multi nation zone where Aztlan does not have authority(Panama is managed by the Corporate court).
This is the reason why Aztlan is building or has build the Nicaragua canal as an alternative.
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It's mentioned a couple of times in Corp Guide (thank you Search-6!), mostly about how AresSpace is on the forefront of the technology to build it, Aztechnology will provide ground support and Saeder-Krupp will develop and manage the docking/launch facilities on the asteroid anchor in low orbit.
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The Canal Zone was turned over to the Corporate Court as part of the Veracruz Settlement back in the late 40s. However, they were badly damaged in Crash 2.0 and Aztlan finished the Nicaragua Canal which can handle larger ships and greater traffic.
However, the Corporate Court still controls a strip of land that is going to force Aztlan to use ships and aircrafts - for now. The Canal Zone is an accident waiting to happen, however.
Note that Horizon appears to be backing Amazonia, but Wuxing has been aligning a lot with Aztechnology these days.
If Aztlan is going to war with Amazonia, I can't imagine that they're not going to do something about their northern border. There's no love lost between them and the PCC and the CAS, but every indication that the PCC is going to be having troubles of their own with the "voting stock" coming due in the Ute Nation, which once was friendly to Aztechnology. Do you think that there might have something up their sleeve to stymie the CAS too?
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*sigh* sorry fastjack thanks for finding the info...what'd you use to seach?
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LOL... Adobe's search. Just looked for elevator. ;)
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LOL... Adobe's search. Just looked for elevator. ;)
ah wow i feel stupid lol...just goes to show i should buy both the hard copy AND the pdf too
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I think if the Amazon-Aztlan war spirals out of control and spills out into the rest of the world and threatens world stability(Matrix getting messed up, wider war etc.). The great powers will have no choice but to step in.
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You mean Jesus?
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I think if the Amazon-Aztlan war spirals out of control and spills out into the rest of the world and threatens world stability(Matrix getting messed up, wider war etc.). The great powers will have no choice but to step in.
well if it does spiral out of control and broadens the turf the war is fought on, ares and saeder as jackpoint pointed out have separate parts of the space elevator and those really aren't three corps you wanna mess around with
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The only thing that could make it any worse is if Mitsuhama controlled a chunk of it. I hate those guys.
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get caught in a zero zone did you?
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Why do you think I'm a zombie monky?
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aaaah it makes sense now!
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How come nobody uses nukes any more?
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Nobody is sure if they'll work or not. Since the nukes during the Great Ghost Dance didn't work, then Sam Verner's own Ghost Dance deactivated some, finally the nuclear incident in Chicago; it's not a reliable weapon.
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They'll probably use non nuke secret weapons.
Amazonians will probably use their magical rituals to awaken nature against the Azzies(Yucatan).
Azzies will probably use bio weapons.
Corporate court: How about a orbital mass driver strike. Effects of a nuke without the raidation. Wonder how magic will stop a falling asteriod.
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Nobody is sure if they'll work or not. Since the nukes during the Great Ghost Dance didn't work, then Sam Verner's own Ghost Dance deactivated some, finally the nuclear incident in Chicago; it's not a reliable weapon.
2004 : Israel retaliated to a chemical attack by nuking half of Libyan cities. It worked (Rulebook, Target: Wastelands).
2006 : North Korea launched one missile at Japan. It didn't work (Rulebook).
2009 : SAIM commando had the Lone Eagle of fame launched at Russia. It didn't work (Rulebook).
2030 : India and Pakistan fires nukes in Kashmir. It worked (Shadows of Asia).
2056 : Ares brings a tactical nuke to Chicago. It worked (well, more or less, Burning Bright, Bug City).
France conducts regular underground nuclear testing off the coast of French Guiana (SOTA:2064).
2064 : Winternight has magically modified nuke exploding all over the world (System Failure).
So (1) nukes have been working more often than not (2) the two well-known failures happened before the Awakening.
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Nobody is sure if they'll work or not. Since the nukes during the Great Ghost Dance didn't work, then Sam Verner's own Ghost Dance deactivated some, finally the nuclear incident in Chicago; it's not a reliable weapon.
2004 : Israel retaliated to a chemical attack by nuking half of Libyan cities. It worked (Rulebook, Target: Wastelands).
2006 : North Korea launched one missile at Japan. It didn't work (Rulebook).
2009 : SAIM commando had the Lone Eagle of fame launched at Russia. It didn't work (Rulebook).
2030 : India and Pakistan fires nukes in Kashmir. It worked (Shadows of Asia).
2056 : Ares brings a tactical nuke to Chicago. It worked (well, more or less, Burning Bright, Bug City).
France conducts regular underground nuclear testing off the coast of French Guiana (SOTA:2064).
2064 : Winternight has magically modified nuke exploding all over the world (System Failure).
So (1) nukes have been working more often than not (2) the two well-known failures happened before the Awakening.
Add to that the nukes from Find Your Own Truth and you have nukes working 3 times, not working 3 times and one WTF moment in Chicago. (Not counting French testing because testing is done in a controlled environment). So, are you going to launch a nuke at your enemy when you're only going to have a possible 43% guaranteed success rate? Now, remember, there will still be a lot of political fallout (along with the other fallout) if you launch it. To use nukes without the blessing of the Corporate Court could mean censure from them (which could mean having an asteroid shot at your headquarters).
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The handy part about the elevator is that it not only provides a single point of entry to the orbitals (allowing the corps to focus their defensive measures at one point), it also allows for real time surveillance and counter-measure deployment in case of stowaways. Not only can they put visual sensors on board, but weight (mass) sensors can pick up exactly how much is travelling up the umbilical. This also allows it to be a hard-line comm system, which puts a significant crimp on wireless hacking. In fact, I'd say that they might disallow ANY wireless traffic not on their official channels, thus giving the corps another way to detect intruders. If they aren't on the corp frequencies with the corp encryption being monitored by corp security, then they can simply stop the elevator partway up (and vent it) or send it back down to the loving arms of corpsec.
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Nobody is sure if they'll work or not. Since the nukes during the Great Ghost Dance didn't work, then Sam Verner's own Ghost Dance deactivated some, finally the nuclear incident in Chicago; it's not a reliable weapon.
2004 : Israel retaliated to a chemical attack by nuking half of Libyan cities. It worked (Rulebook, Target: Wastelands).
2006 : North Korea launched one missile at Japan. It didn't work (Rulebook).
2009 : SAIM commando had the Lone Eagle of fame launched at Russia. It didn't work (Rulebook).
2030 : India and Pakistan fires nukes in Kashmir. It worked (Shadows of Asia).
2056 : Ares brings a tactical nuke to Chicago. It worked (well, more or less, Burning Bright, Bug City).
France conducts regular underground nuclear testing off the coast of French Guiana (SOTA:2064).
2064 : Winternight has magically modified nuke exploding all over the world (System Failure).
So (1) nukes have been working more often than not (2) the two well-known failures happened before the Awakening.
Add to that the nukes from Find Your Own Truth and you have nukes working 3 times, not working 3 times and one WTF moment in Chicago. (Not counting French testing because testing is done in a controlled environment). So, are you going to launch a nuke at your enemy when you're only going to have a possible 43% guaranteed success rate? Now, remember, there will still be a lot of political fallout (along with the other fallout) if you launch it. To use nukes without the blessing of the Corporate Court could mean censure from them (which could mean having an asteroid shot at your headquarters).
Ortillery anyone? I love the light given off by a rock burning through the atomsphere in the morning it looks like victory!
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Then again, nukes are just one form of WMD deterrent. From all we know so far, Atztlan and Amazonia should be in a magical MAD situation - yet, Atztlan feels confident enough to attack? That is what I find odd about it...
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I'm fairly surprised they have not investigated neutron bombs further. Anything organic dies instantly, leaving the infrastructure intact, and as far as radioactivity is concerned, is fairly 'clean'.
Nukes are just plain messy, and meant to make a statement at the same time it blows something up, with the unfortunate side effect of ruining the land for generations to come.
Neuts just cleans house so you can move right in.
Edit: ok, strike what I said about the destructive potential. I just did a wikipedia search on neutrons and found out that they still have a lesser destructive yield, but it's still measured in kilotons. It's just the neutron radiation is far worse and deadlier, though shorter lived. the after effects are lethal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_bomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_bomb)
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Actually, I think a bigger reason the Neutron Bomb never really "took off" was because it was closer to a Bio/Chemical weapon than a bomb. And just about everyone frowns on those. It's truly one of the WORST weapons of mass destruction.
Radiation poisoning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_poisoning)
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Azzies already do blood magic. You can't get much worse then that.
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Azzies already do blood magic.
And Amazonia something similar. As said, shouldnt they have a magical balance of terror? Whatever happened to that?
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it might also be interesting to point out that the Corp Court has planned to put their space elevator (think that was what they were calling it...sky elevator...ugh i can't remember) in Aztlan territory, so needless to say they'll be paying close attention to this
This space elevator is like the ones they mention in Eclipse Phase, no? There are many similarities in Eclipse Phase. Obviously, since it is a Rob Boyle brainchild.
Oh, Uh. War. yeah. I guess War is going to be like a core setting? So you can throw your runners in Black Ops style?
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According to the Aztlan S/B, Amazonia has a Locus, which is helping to regenerate the rainforest. I'm betting that's a major objective of the powers-that-be behind the Azzies.
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And Amazonia something similar. As said, shouldnt they have a magical balance of terror? Whatever happened to that?
Similar? Maybe they're using the true Blood Magic (Atzlaner blood magic would be ED Death Magic then, which is just a really evil form of the former).
Well, i hope not. If Blood Magic comes into SR, Johnsons would require a Blood Oath from the group, that they'll do the run as intended. ;P
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Similar? Maybe they're using the true Blood Magic (Atzlaner blood magic would be ED Death Magic then, which is just a really evil form of the former).
The Amazonians use lesser forms of blood magic per the Atztlan sourcebook.
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A note on the nukes (and to see if I can quote correctly :) )...
2004 : Israel retaliated to a chemical attack by nuking half of Libyan cities. It worked (Rulebook, Target: Wastelands).
2006 : North Korea launched one missile at Japan. It didn't work (Rulebook).
2009 : SAIM commando had the Lone Eagle of fame launched at Russia. It didn't work (Rulebook).
2030 : India and Pakistan fires nukes in Kashmir. It worked (Shadows of Asia).
2056 : Ares brings a tactical nuke to Chicago. It worked (well, more or less, Burning Bright, Bug City).
France conducts regular underground nuclear testing off the coast of French Guiana (SOTA:2064).
2064 : Winternight has magically modified nuke exploding all over the world (System Failure).
Unfortunately I cannot remember what happened in Find Your Own Truth, when the nuke failed (year/how/why)
Post-Awakening, there's a higher rate of nukes "working." With two being "magically modified" in one form or another. Pre-Awakening, both the failed launches...well nukes don't detonate like conventional munitions. There is a chance that critical mass would be obtained from a crash, but unlikely. The Corebook just says the North Korean nuke "didn't detonate" and being a relatively new nuclear power, it could have been filled with stuffed drop-bears and just called a nuke by the war mongering propaganda machines of Japan and N. Korea or it could have had a faulty design, someone could have forgotten to install the fission/fusionable material (or other component), we are talking North Korea here. With the Lone Eagle incident, to a far far lesser degree the same issues might arise, but there could also be the issue that SAIM didn't have the arming code, just the launch code (though I don't know enough about the US missiles to know with any certainty that there are two codes, arming/launching, or if they're one and the same, or something entirely different). The Corebook states "the warheads never hit" and SWA says
then the missile disappeared." Typically if an ICBM warhead doesn't reach it's target location it doesn't activate. Either way, both are statistical freaks that happened before the Awakening.
Discarding the pre-Awakening nukes (and assuming the failed one in Find Your Own Truth was post-Awakening) that means every nuke has worked, even those modified or affected by magic, save the FYOT device. And one cannot discard the French's testing because in the testing it is shown that nukes still work, that's the whole point of the tests. SOTA: 2064's quote is "France still conducts regular underground testing, mostly offshore from French Guyana, as a show of bravado against Amazonia and Saeder-Krupp." (posted by Skywarp with no one posting to contradict him/her) Of course nothing is said about whether the tests show normal results, however for it to be used as "bravado" against other countries/corporations the main way (only way with out inviting people to partake in the experiments on site) to prove it would be seismographic detections by other countries with signatures equivalent to the French's claimed yields for each test. France says, "Everyone stay calm, we're doing an underground test of an X-megaton device at Y-time." Then Amazonia and Saeder-Krupp look at their seismographs after that time and say, "wow, look at that, that's indicative of an X-megaton device." Add to that, satellite info to watch for ground deformation at the sites...the current info in Shadowrun books would indicate that nukes work just fine.
Because the two most notable failed nukes were both launched, and that the Pakistan-India war lead to "three tactical nuclear devices exploded and thought the Himalayan valley contained much of the heat and shockwaves, the whole region is now irreparably irradiated and unsuitable for life" (SoA p. 66), where tactically generally means launched/delivered from smaller than ICBM delivery systems, it is a far higher probability that something in the delivery systems failed in the Lone Eagle and N. Korean attacks than the nuke itself. Then add to that that semi-ballistics transports still work, launching satellites still work, etc., a well-maintained MIRV on a well-maintained ICBM is just as deadly as it is today.
Then you have Ares, Saeder-Krupp, other Megas, and other nuclear-capable nations all holding on to stockpiles. If they didn't work they would be dismantling them for material use in other areas. But even if they work at 1/10th power (and only the magically modified nukes have shown any indication of reduced power) that's still quite a punch considering modern nukes are tens, hundreds of times as powerful as Little Boy and Fat Man.
Of course I may have missed something in the canon, or some of my assumptions are too narrow or broad, or my knowledge on nuclear weapons has grown a bit foggy, so I welcome comment/discussion on it :)
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As a side note how do I get the "from: 'Poster' on 'Date'" to appear in a quote?
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[quote author=Fizzygoo link=topic=273.msg17840#msg17840 date=1291875032]
As a side note how do I get the "from: 'Poster' on 'Date'" to appear in a quote?
[/quote]
Like this
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If you're posting from a book, all you need is the author tag:
[quote author=SR4A, p. 365]blah blah blah[/quote]
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When the original poster mentioned Aztechnology getting hit by Amazonia-friendly eco-terrorists, it occurred to me that this would also lead to a lot of Rival Corps hiring Runners to make hits on Aztech, telling them to operate under the guise of eco-terrorism.
Not to mention the CAS still lusting after the parts of Texas that Aztlan took from them; an Aztlan/Amazonia war may involve a lot more fronts then just the two nations rather quickly.
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I'm fairly surprised they have not investigated neutron bombs further. Anything organic dies instantly, leaving the infrastructure intact, and as far as radioactivity is concerned, is fairly 'clean'.
Nukes are just plain messy, and meant to make a statement at the same time it blows something up, with the unfortunate side effect of ruining the land for generations to come.
Neuts just cleans house so you can move right in.
Edit: ok, strike what I said about the destructive potential. I just did a wikipedia search on neutrons and found out that they still have a lesser destructive yield, but it's still measured in kilotons. It's just the neutron radiation is far worse and deadlier, though shorter lived. the after effects are lethal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_bomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_bomb)
Ok, just to clarify, since I was a Nuclear Electronics Technician in the US Navy and have a pretty good idea of what radiation does, the neutron bomb would activate (i.e. make radioactive) any metals in the area. EVERY metal object in the area would become radioactive. The heavier metals (like gold, lead, and even a slightly less massive one like iron) would have long enough half lives to render the eniter area unlivable for several generations.
That's why neutron bombs were tabled, not because of lesser yield. And, yes, radiation poisoning sucks. We had to study what the effects were. And they even sucked on paper, let alone the pictures...