Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Major Doom on <02-07-16/1820:14>
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Since trolls are the larger metatype, incuring a 100% increase (or double cost if you will) for their Lifestyle, would it be reasonable to say a Pixie, on the other side of the size spectrum, also incurs the same 100% increase to Lifestyle cost?
Also, what would be reasonable concerning weapons that a Pixie can use? All? Tasers and pistols only? What about grenades?
Going by RAW, since a Troll is not prevented from even using an hold-out pistol (modified for its hands based on Lifestyle cost increase), nor is the damage value adjusted for the weapon being a bit larger than a Dwarf-sized hold-out pistol, I figure a Pixie shouldn't suffer any restrictions as well. What do you think?
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Surely there are bigger issues than pixies to deal with? :P
But seriously, you may want to check out one of the many pixie threads touching on this topic like this one:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=23137.0
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I'd definitely limit pixies to automatics and smaller; no Heavy Weapons for them! Gunnery is a different matter. A pixie could probably use a properly modified rifle like an assault cannon (they mention this about the Pixie Assassin dude). Below that, they could probably get smaller calibers built into custom designs for them.
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Fuckin Pixies.
Agian.
Already covered 'Pixiez with Gunz'. Please look at it, then explain why a pixie could use anything!
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If you are going to do a pixie please have the courtesy of making it a mage.
Players trying to justify something firing a weapon that weighs more than it is a bit on the ludicrous side even for a game like SR.
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Everything is four times the size to a Pixie, so we can kinda use that as a baseline on what gear they can use.
Unfortunately the very book that was supposed to detail creating Pixies as player characters is missing most of the rules needed to creating Pixies as player characters. Or any other Metasapient, really.
What if any is their lifestyle / gear price markup? Are they forbidden to get augmentations like in previous editions? Do they really no longer have the Distinctive Style negative quality?
-k
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Surely there are bigger issues than pixies to deal with? :P
But seriously, you may want to check out one of the many pixie threads touching on this topic like this one:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=23137.0
Pixies can not use any weapons because of their size and strength limitation, is the argument they usebut in the books somewhere I read about a pixie assassin that used a sniper rifle. This is also what they say about gear so the pixie can only wear clothes and no armor.
They're wrong. By a strict application of the RAW there is no issue and no cost increase. I get a lot of people have problems with this, so I agree with the above poster who suggested gear costs similar to trolls, to represent the extra cost of small custom gear. But this would not change armor values or damage codes.
Thanks for the reference. I figured it would be the case since there are no adjustments to armor or damage values for trolls.
Fuckin Pixies.
Agian.
Already covered 'Pixiez with Gunz'. Please look at it, then explain why a pixie could use anything!
Pixies can use anything because of this (from the other thread that Sendaz linked to):
The ultimate goal should be clarification in the form of errata. But of course Catalyst has no interest in fixing their numerous oversights and mistakes, which is the third corner on this crap triangle.
I personally see it as a circle of crap. Regardless, I figure I just keep the game simple as possible. Also, a 100% increase to Lifestyle, just like a troll has to suffer, sounds reasonable.
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Under the RAW pixies suffer no restrictions and no lifestyle increase.
If you think this is dumb you should talk to your GM, or if you are the GM, institute house rules.
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If you are a pixie, you don't get to use guns, period.
I know there are no rules about it, but it simply doesn't make any sense for them to use a firearm.
Maybe a taser or hold-out retrofitted into something of the equivalent of a pixie-sized assault cannon (fired with the "Heavy Weapons" skill and the damage value of the taser/hold-out)
Though to be honest, i wouldn't even allow pixies at the table, nor any other "special snowflake" freak.
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The Pixie-sized assault cannon already described was a small-caliber rifle. I'd suggest up to Heavy Pistol , as the Super Warhawk's DV and Pen are a good example of what I think an 'Assault Cannon' for the little folk would do.
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Yeah nah, really not.
Just look how much kick a Ruger Super Blackhawk (most likely the RL equivalent of the "Warhawk") produces for somebody the size of a human.
No way a small teddybear-sized fairy will be able to shoot something like this, even in a larger frame.
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An average handgun is, what, 6 inches long, 4 high.
Imagine a handgun 2 feet long, 1.5 feet high, barrel 2 inches in outer diameter. Firing bullets the size of soda bottles.
Doable, but... well, pretty much this:
High Impulse Weapon System (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyAl9qK3Rlg)
For other gear, I would houserule 100% markup at a minimum. Some gear would be simply unavailable or have astronomically high availibility and cost (Where would one get a pixie sized datajack?)*
I had a pixie character in the official 4th Edition Shadowrun Missions campaign. Made her a drone rigger adept because the only way I could rationalize her using human sized weapons was through a drone surrogate.
The one and only time she tried firing a full sized Ares Predator she suffered a critical glitch. Happens when you are defaulting and only have two dice to roll. GM ruled that the recoil embedded her into the drywall behind her.
Trying to re-create her for 5th Edition Shadowrun Prime Missions but the lack of rules makes it frustrating.
-k
* - Technically, there was at least one pixie in SR canon that had a datajack, Grace. Unfortunately she was plugged into the Matrix during Crash 2.0 and has been in a coma since.
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There is supposed to be a trio of pixies who have started up their own musical group and have been making rounds on the indie music circuit.
So if you or your crew are down at the Psychadelic Pirate this weekend be sure to check out the Pixie Chicks. :P
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A Super Warhawk is probably something along the lines of a .44 Magnum or .50 caliber revolver. I've fired a 44 one-handed. I'm not pixie sized, but I figure if one had the weapon built for them into a rifle format, they could shoot a .44 round. It'd be like a (you guessed it) Assault Cannon to them, but it is completely feasible. It also has a barrel length they could probably manage as well.
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I did a picture spread a few months ago in character creation that matched up a 47cm tall pixie to ACTUAL guns from my collection.
Even the barretta, which I called a 'light pistol' was almost half as tall as the pixie!
The Cassull, a .454 magnum, was almost 3/4 the length of the pixie!
(If I could link from my phone I would). There is NO way a pixie is using a normal weapon. Hell the ammo is bigger then its hand!
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It's a quirk of the system since your range of stats is rather narrow.
Given that Pixies have a starting Body and Str of 1/2 (Run Faster pg 105) along with their low body mass, directly firing any regular weapon should have increased recoil penalties, if not just send them sailing across the room with the bigger toys, but this is not touched on really.
However, Magic Fingers is a thing and the smart Pixie could well use that to handle any firearm of choice.
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I agree with you there, Reaver. Which is why I've specifically mentioned getting things like pistols built into a rifle-format for them.
Or, just apply massive penalties due to size differences. I mean sure, the pixie can pick up that pistol! Go ahead and pull the trigger! You're taking a minus... Shit, A dwarf using a troll's gun is -4, so I guess you'll take a -6 from Human to Pixie? Don't forget to use both hands, or you're taking another -4! Maybe you're better off flying grenades above the enemy, tugging out the pin and dropping it on them.
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It's a quirk of the system since your range of stats is rather narrow.
Given that Pixies have a starting Body and Str of 1/2 (Run Faster pg 105) along with their low body mass, directly firing any regular weapon should have increased recoil penalties, if not just send them sailing across the room with the bigger toys, but this is not touched on really.
However, Magic Fingers is a thing and the smart Pixie could well use that to handle any firearm of choice.
The flaw in the magic fingers trick is that spell mimics your natural arm span. Thus again, it wouldn't work for a pixie. That would be like a human casting magic fingers and using a 155mm arty CANNON as if it were a rifle....
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Actually, thats pretty good solution to the Pixie Question.
Pixie shoots gun, blasts itself into the next wall behind it and thus swats itself out of existence.
Everybody is happy.
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Or if the pixie landed and braced itself, it works without a problem!
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My pixie has a rating 1 bow 8)
But yes, this imho critter is more trouble than it is usually worth it.
There is just no prefabricated gear for them, just not worth it financially.
They can maybe in some cases use human gear for different purposes. Tshirt->blanket or whatever.
Guns are a fire and forget case. Forget the pixie.
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I could see a pixie firing an extremely modified pistol, but it would probably look like Seras Victoria firing the Harkonnen cannon.
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Think about it....
A light pistol is a 9mm.
That is the diameter of the round. Which is 1/50th the of a Pixie's height!
To put that into human perspectives, a 6ft tall (180cm) person = a diameter 3.6cm or 36mm..... almost the same size a grenade. But as a bullet.
As A BULLET, this is a cannon. Very similiar in size to what was mounted of freaking PLANES of WW2!
So no, you are not hand firing it.
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Because people can't fire 40mm grenades from multiple types of weapons? Or larger weapons, if the weapon is built right? For Super Warhawk-sized payloads it would basically be a mini recoilless rifle, but it is still a possibility. More-so for the Light Pistol. Just give them some kind of snub-nose revolver; their version of an MGL-32.
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Maybe you're better off flying grenades above the enemy, tugging out the pin and dropping it on them.
...hmm, cast Improved Invisibility on self while holding grenade, fly over the target (above the blast radius) pull the pin, bomb's away.
I like it.
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Because people can't fire 40mm grenades from multiple types of weapons? Or larger weapons, if the weapon is built right? For Super Warhawk-sized payloads it would basically be a mini recoilless rifle, but it is still a possibility. More-so for the Light Pistol. Just give them some kind of snub-nose revolver; their version of an MGL-32.
That.
Plus with the nanotechnology and miniaturization processes available at SR lvl technology, i don't see this as being very difficult. Expensive, sure but difficult no. Unresisted recoil should be more difficult for pixies sure, but Again with SR tech, accounting for recoil is not that big an issue, gas venting, gyro Mount...etc.
So in essence i would go with up to and including at least a heavy pistol could be made into a "Pixie rifle/ assault canon" however the ammunition should not be changed in order to preserve DV, so i would limit clip size have all unresisted recoil Count at least double but more likely x3 or x4. So doable, but very very expensive as everything ( gun, clip, recoil sytems...) needs to be custom made.
But honestly this thread and the ones before it about Pixies essentially boils Down to "Some people like pixies, some people are ok with them and some people really really don't like pixies", but thats the beauty of Shadowrun, we can all adjust our own games as we see fit.
And yeah the flying and dumping grenades idea is awesome. :)
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ok just a thought.
instead of using firearms. is there any issues with making them a melee character?
and no i do not know the stats or restrictions for Pixies. if some one could direct me to there info in the books, that would be apreciated.
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In SR4 you could make a killer pixie melee character, either through the adept route or the mystic adept route. I haven't tried making one in this edition, but I don't see why not, especially with some of the stuff in Hard Targets.
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Because people can't fire 40mm grenades from multiple types of weapons? Or larger weapons, if the weapon is built right? For Super Warhawk-sized payloads it would basically be a mini recoilless rifle, but it is still a possibility. More-so for the Light Pistol. Just give them some kind of snub-nose revolver; their version of an MGL-32.
Care to look up the speeds of a 40mm grenade VS say a .357 or .44 mag? Those are a lot slower then a 9mm....
You want ballistic speeds from a pistol, not "lob some lead".
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what Reaver said.
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ok just a thought.
instead of using firearms. is there any issues with making them a melee character?
and no i do not know the stats or restrictions for Pixies. if some one could direct me to there info in the books, that would be apreciated.
Pixies have a Body and Str of 1/2 (Run Faster pg 105 for this and the rest of the stats)
So you might not knock someone out with a kick alone, but you can use things like toxins or electrical attacks to augment your side of the fight.
Which raises all sorts of questions by itself.
If a pixie is wearing pixie-sized shock gloves, would that really do the same stunnage or would that be the equivalent of a hand-buzzer? :P
By RAW they don't make the distinction, but expect this to be argued at many a table...
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THIS I can answer :P
Electrical damage don't care the size of the hands that delivers the charge, it just cares about the wattage. Nothing there would change due to a pixie's size. Ammo count might be less due to a smaller charge holder (battery), but that don't effect the damage.
(Electrician by trade)
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The simole issue is that for everything but Changelings and reasonable metaveriants Run Faster said "Here's the rules for creating this character." And stopped dead at that exact point, offering NOTHING on how to actually PLAY any of the exotics... it seems to have once again been an area where 4th edition familiarity is assumed.
Of NO help to people like me who came in at 5th edition.
Seriously someone really dropped the ball... one of the biggezt things they do in 5th is try to simply things anf reign in dice pools, two of the major things intimidating people from playing Shadowrun... and then all over the place there's gaps in the rules where it's blatently obvious they've decided to let prior version knowledge fill in the gaps.
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Because people can't fire 40mm grenades from multiple types of weapons? Or larger weapons, if the weapon is built right? For Super Warhawk-sized payloads it would basically be a mini recoilless rifle, but it is still a possibility. More-so for the Light Pistol. Just give them some kind of snub-nose revolver; their version of an MGL-32.
Care to look up the speeds of a 40mm grenade VS say a .357 or .44 mag? Those are a lot slower then a 9mm....
You want ballistic speeds from a pistol, not "lob some lead".
So... subsonic ammo? 8)
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Because people can't fire 40mm grenades from multiple types of weapons? Or larger weapons, if the weapon is built right? For Super Warhawk-sized payloads it would basically be a mini recoilless rifle, but it is still a possibility. More-so for the Light Pistol. Just give them some kind of snub-nose revolver; their version of an MGL-32.
Care to look up the speeds of a 40mm grenade VS say a .357 or .44 mag? Those are a lot slower then a 9mm....
You want ballistic speeds from a pistol, not "lob some lead".
So... subsonic ammo? 8)
Miles per hour to meters per sec: 0.44704
Speed of sound: 343m/s (768mph, 1236kmh)
Speed of 40mm Grenade (launched): 76m/s (170Mph)
Typical speed of Subsonic ammunition: 300 m/s _671mph)
Typical speed of a 9mm: 395-461m/s
Typical Speed of a .44 mag: 380-430m/s
Typical Speed of a .45ACP: 250-373 m/s
Typical Speed of a .454 mag: 434-580 m/s
Big difference in those speeds. But yes, a grenade launcher is 'sub-sonic' if that is what you are going after. But typical "sub-sonic" ammo is just under the speed of sound, and not it the realm up a juiced out pitcher on crack.... :P
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Bullets also weigh less than grenades. Less mass=less force. F = m*∆v/t.
But nevermind, I was joking anyway.
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Though to be honest, i wouldn't even allow pixies at the table, nor any other "special snowflake" freak.
I have the same mentality concerning Technomancers. The dumbest thing to exist in Shadowrun in my opinion. I would be more than willing to allow all my players to play Pixies, cast magic, carry Panther XXLs, and give them bonus dice to all firearm attacks after having a Pixie orgy, rather than ever allow a single player to play a Technomancer at my game.
This will be my first time GMing for a player portraying a Pixie. So I'm keeping an open-mind. Maybe I'll get creative in challenging the player character. If not, oh well, it's all good fun anyway.
Given that Pixies have a starting Body and Str of 1/2 (Run Faster pg 105) along with their low body mass, directly firing any regular weapon should have increased recoil penalties, if not just send them sailing across the room with the bigger toys, but this is not touched on really.
Firing a firearm is Agility based. Strength affects recoil compensation. Body has nothing to do with firing a weapon. So by your argument, a human-sized character with low Body and Strength should suffer the same recoil increase and knock-back as a Pixie. But that's not how the rules work.
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I would be more than willing to allow all my players to play Pixies, cast magic, carry Panther XXLs, and give them bonus dice to all firearm attacks after having a Pixie orgy
I like the way you think.
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Given that Pixies have a starting Body and Str of 1/2 (Run Faster pg 105) along with their low body mass, directly firing any regular weapon should have increased recoil penalties, if not just send them sailing across the room with the bigger toys, but this is not touched on really.
Firing a firearm is Agility based. Strength affects recoil compensation. Body has nothing to do with firing a weapon. So by your argument, a human-sized character with low Body and Strength should suffer the same recoil increase and knock-back as a Pixie. But that's not how the rules work.
Which is why I included the part about low body mass should be factored in as well as mentioning that this is not really covered by the rules, so saying that's not how the rules work is sort of redundant as I did already mention that the rules don't touch on those aspects.
Now I am not going into an argument about a human with 1 Str and Bod since there are numerous other threads already arguing what a Stat 1 player could and couldn't do and even they can't agree on it. Personally a 1 Str/1 Bod Human could probably fire it just fine assuming they have the Agility because they do mass quite a bit more than the pixie in question, but again maybe the Stat 1 guy or gal should take a larger recoil penalty. But this goes down a slightly different path discussing how stat points are spread out.
But let's follow up more on the body mass bit for a moment, pixies are under 50cm in height (20 inches) and look like miniature elves that fly which one could say means they have a pretty lean build or they will not be getting off the ground so easily.
That puts them on the baby table for height/weight pretty much, so a humanoid measuring in at 50cm typically weighs in around 9-10lbs which is 4.5 kilo.
Now babies are a bit chunkier but pixies are probably more wiry lean muscle so probably still weigh the same despite a slimmer build so for arguments sake lets go with the top end and call it 10lbs/4.5 kilo
Edit: did some trawling though old ED and they list Windlings (ED version of SR Pixies) as being around 13lbs so not far off.
So you have someone who weighs soaking wet 4.5 kilos and you don't think that firing some of the heavier pistol weapons wouldn't knock them on their arse or at least seriously stagger them because of that low mass?
Edit addition: For example a .45 firing Colt Magnum +P High Pressure Loads (which should probably be pretty similar to the Rugar Super Warhawk in game presuming SR level probably has more kick than current ammo but still similar weight of gun to absorb it's share of the kick load) still has a Free Recoil / Recoil Energy of 17-23 ft/lbs (http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_recoil_table.htm)force to push back on your 10lb (Edit:possibly 13lb if using ED tables)Pixie.
Again the rules in core don't cover things like this because Core was dealing with predominately human sized characters so sufficient mass was already assumed.
Pixies on the other hand break that mold and falling back on Core alone is maybe not sufficient and unfortunately Run Faster, the book that should have had more on this, doesn't cover it very well.
So it should at least be considered for possible houseruling since the rules are lacking in this corner.
As for the Pixie orgy, we expect pics. ;)
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But let's follow up more on the body mass bit for a moment, pixies are under 50cm in height (20 inches) and look like miniature elves that fly which one could say means they have a pretty lean build or they will not be getting off the ground so easily.
That puts them on the baby table for height/weight pretty much, so a humanoid measuring in at 50cm typically weighs in around 9-10lbs which is 4.5 kilo.
Now babies are a bit chunkier but pixies are probably more wiry lean muscle so probably still weigh the same despite a slimmer build so for arguments sake lets go with the top end and call it 10lbs/4.5 kilo
Edit: did some trawling though old ED and they list Windlings (ED version of SR Pixies) as being around 13lbs so not far off.
So you have someone who weighs soaking wet 4.5 kilos and you don't think that firing some of the heavier pistol weapons wouldn't knock them on their arse or at least seriously stagger them because of that low mass?
Pixies can get augmentations, such as Bone Lacing which raises their Body, and any of the ones that raise their Strength. Granted this would render them mundane and they wouldn't be able to fly. Or a Pixie can be a full Magician or Adept, and increase their Body and Strength through magical means (Increase Attribute spell or Improved Physical Attribute Adept Power).
Augmentations can be quantified to justify an increase in weight (both Body and Strength). Magic can't be, because it's magic. It defies physics. Regardless, by the rules, a Pixie has means of overcoming any houserule of low Body and Strength character suffering penalties for using a firearm. Therefore there is no point in even having a houserule. Just keep it simple and don't create more work for the GM.
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Though to be honest, i wouldn't even allow pixies at the table, nor any other "special snowflake" freak.
I have the same mentality concerning Technomancers. The dumbest thing to exist in Shadowrun in my opinion. I would be more than willing to allow all my players to play Pixies, cast magic, carry Panther XXLs, and give them bonus dice to all firearm attacks after having a Pixie orgy, rather than ever allow a single player to play a Technomancer at my game.
What if someone wants to play pixie technomancer? 😈
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Because people can't fire 40mm grenades from multiple types of weapons? Or larger weapons, if the weapon is built right? For Super Warhawk-sized payloads it would basically be a mini recoilless rifle, but it is still a possibility. More-so for the Light Pistol. Just give them some kind of snub-nose revolver; their version of an MGL-32.
Care to look up the speeds of a 40mm grenade VS say a .357 or .44 mag? Those are a lot slower then a 9mm....
You want ballistic speeds from a pistol, not "lob some lead".
So... subsonic ammo? 8)
Miles per hour to meters per sec: 0.44704
Speed of sound: 343m/s (768mph, 1236kmh)
Speed of 40mm Grenade (launched): 76m/s (170Mph)
Typical speed of Subsonic ammunition: 300 m/s _671mph)
Typical speed of a 9mm: 395-461m/s
Typical Speed of a .44 mag: 380-430m/s
Typical Speed of a .45ACP: 250-373 m/s
Typical Speed of a .454 mag: 434-580 m/s
Big difference in those speeds. But yes, a grenade launcher is 'sub-sonic' if that is what you are going after. But typical "sub-sonic" ammo is just under the speed of sound, and not it the realm up a juiced out pitcher on crack.... :P
The muzzle velocity of a high velocity 40mm grenade such as fired from a Mk 19 grenade launcher is 240 m/s on average. That is more of an apples to apples comparison. Just saying...
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The lack of real rules is awful but I am constantly bemused by how many people here have a raging, priapic hate-boner for stuff like pixies.
(from the guy constantly screaming about how dongles are utterly degenerative for the game ;) )
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The lack of real rules is awful but I am constantly bemused by how many people here have a raging, priapic hate-boner for stuff like pixies.
(from the guy constantly screaming about how dongles are utterly degenerative for the game ;) )
"priapic hate-boner" is redundant ;)
Though to be honest, i wouldn't even allow pixies at the table, nor any other "special snowflake" freak.
I have the same mentality concerning Technomancers. The dumbest thing to exist in Shadowrun in my opinion. I would be more than willing to allow all my players to play Pixies, cast magic, carry Panther XXLs, and give them bonus dice to all firearm attacks after having a Pixie orgy, rather than ever allow a single player to play a Technomancer at my game.
I like Technomancers, though I wish they were capable / allowed to do more. I get it, it's all about game balance. But really... When everything about them is basically a very specific school of magic that focuses on affecting computers instead of the natural world, they should be ruling the Matrix. They should be like Neo, able to point at drones and have them fall from the sky. And when they go online, everything should be like Play-Doh. Which is why I got really irritated when I saw Street Grimoire introduce spells like Increase Noise or Increase Gear Rating. Why in the hell are we giving ordinary Mages spells to affect stuff like that. How do you turn Fireballs and Invisibility into faster computer processors? Those should be TM abilities right there. As it stands, they're basically mutants with the ability to do Decker stuff without a deck. Not really game breaking, and certainly fits with the theme of Shadowrun overall.
Now, Pixies on the other hand... the reason why I (and perhaps others) don't like them is b/c they simply don't fit the theme. Guns and gangs, criminals and corporations, money and magic, leather and lace. Shadowrun is dystopian cyberpunk. There is literally no reason to include Pixies. This isn't Peter Pan, this isn't My Little Pony, this isn't a Saturday morning cartoon. If you want your 7 year old niece to play, let her roll up something else. She doesn't get to be a sugarplum princess while I'm killing guards so we can steal the paydata.
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The lack of real rules is awful but I am constantly bemused by how many people here have a raging, priapic hate-boner for stuff like pixies.
(from the guy constantly screaming about how dongles are utterly degenerative for the game ;) )
Part of it is the rules. Part of it is the 'idea' of it. And (not a) small part of it is the player to wants these types of races....
You ALWAYS see the same builds, same posts, same crap, and it goes a little like this:
"I'm a special snowflake, so I need a special snowflake race to properly represent my snowflakyness. But, because I am a snowflake and I am creating a snowflake, I will not employ any reason or common sense to my snowflake character. Thus it is perfectly acceptable for my snowflake character to use and employ items that they have NO business using. But its OK, cause I am a snowflake!"
Nagas with railguns (when Nagas DO NOT HAVE ARMS!!)
Pixies with guns (its bigger then they are!!!)
Shifters with science degrees (its a FUCKING ANIMAL!)
NO, it is not an 'original' idea. NO, we don't have to 'respect' your 'rights' to be different. NO, we don't care if we hurt your little snowflake feelings with our crushing views of 'stupid common sense'.
That make it clear why some of us have an issue with some things?
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You get people like that trying to do rediculous shit with anything, it's no reason to hate on the sapiants.
Naga with Railguns: That was right after Run Faster was released, before people who hadn't played 4th edition knew they didn't have arms. Seriously, actually read the description, it makes NO mention of the fact that Nagas lack arms. And before you argue back, most depictions of Nagas include arms, so without prior knowledge or adequate descriptions it's a logical assumption to make.
Pxies with guns because they're bigger than the character: OK this is really starting to piss me off. It says right there in the shadow talk that they can, so fucking GET OVER IT! Yes it's obvious theyre going to need to be heavily modified, we just want to know the rules for getting them modified. "But, but recoil!": Pixies are inherantly magical beings, again, get over it... they fly via magic not aerodynamics, so pehaps part of training for them is learnjng how to manipulate the energy and forces keeping them jn the air to compensate for recoil.
Shapeshifters with science degrees: Yes they are animals, magical animals with metahuman levels of intelligance. Is it likely they would get a science degree? No, but simply because most wouldn't see the point not because they're mentally incapable of it.
As for why they are there... why not? Shadowrun isn't just cyberpunk... it's a cyberpunk rave party where high fantasy has gate crashed. You know why I like the ideas of pixie or centaur or shapeshifter characters? Because they DON'T fit in a cyberpunk setting, you take this stuff out of high fantasy and you have them trying to work out what the hell to do in a cyberpunk world.
I like the idea of playing a shifter who's struggling to understand the human world and turns to running to make ends meet and keep their identity hidden. Alas shapeshifters still have a bunch of holes in their rules.
I like the idea of a flamboyant pixie mage with LED hair, cybereyes and nano-tats flinging flashy illusions and roiling fireballs with equal glee. Alas weve no idea if a pixie can use augments at all, and of course backup weapons become a problem as once again we're vaguely told heavy modification is necassary but given no actual hard crunch to work with.
As for Nagas, yeah can't really wrap my head around them... but again part of that is lack of hard crunch abour what they can and can't do... at least Hard Targets gave them a venomous bite.
tldr: Shadowrun isn't just what you think of it, so get over it.
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Naga have always been depicted as snakes with no arms through out history. Naga have/had important roles in the development of SE Asia were their legends originate. And, if you go to Ankor Wat, or even some of the hindu temples in India you can see the carved reliefs of Naga. (Again, no arms.)
And even in the write up for Naga, they tell you, you are a 10meter long SNAKE, do snakes have arms?
No, the problem is people reading what they want to read, mixed with what they 'think' is correct.... which falls back on them getting their info from other incorrect sources of multimedia, like Disney movies.
Heck, even in DnD, they represent Nagas closer to myth (serpents with human heads) then what some people think Naga are. (For the record, the only snake like creatures with arms are the Yaunti, an other SE Asia legend. But unlike the Naga, the Yuanti are filled with spite and resentment)
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OK first off, quoting a lot of prior SR material, wasn't one of my points being lack of prior knowledge?
And yes, there's a lot of depictions of naga without arms, there's also lots of depictions of naga with arms.
Yes, the book does describe them as awakened snakes... but again without actually knowing what versiin of naga their being based on, there's nothing tk state that it couldn't be the armed version.
All I'm saying is that for people new to Shadowrun, it was a mistake waiting to happen. Heck knows I made it, mainly because I'm more familiar with naga having arms than without... and no, not Disney.
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You get people like that trying to do rediculous shit with anything, it's no reason to hate on the sapiants.
Naga with Railguns: That was right after Run Faster was released, before people who hadn't played 4th edition knew they didn't have arms. Seriously, actually read the description, it makes NO mention of the fact that Nagas lack arms. And before you argue back, most depictions of Nagas include arms, so without prior knowledge or adequate descriptions it's a logical assumption to make.
Pxies with guns because they're bigger than the character: OK this is really starting to piss me off. It says right there in the shadow talk that they can, so fucking GET OVER IT! Yes it's obvious theyre going to need to be heavily modified, we just want to know the rules for getting them modified. "But, but recoil!": Pixies are inherantly magical beings, again, get over it... they fly via magic not aerodynamics, so pehaps part of training for them is learnjng how to manipulate the energy and forces keeping them jn the air to compensate for recoil.
Shapeshifters with science degrees: Yes they are animals, magical animals with metahuman levels of intelligance. Is it likely they would get a science degree? No, but simply because most wouldn't see the point not because they're mentally incapable of it.
As for why they are there... why not? Shadowrun isn't just cyberpunk... it's a cyberpunk rave party where high fantasy has gate crashed. You know why I like the ideas of pixie or centaur or shapeshifter characters? Because they DON'T fit in a cyberpunk setting, you take this stuff out of high fantasy and you have them trying to work out what the hell to do in a cyberpunk world.
I like the idea of playing a shifter who's struggling to understand the human world and turns to running to make ends meet and keep their identity hidden. Alas shapeshifters still have a bunch of holes in their rules.
I like the idea of a flamboyant pixie mage with LED hair, cybereyes and nano-tats flinging flashy illusions and roiling fireballs with equal glee. Alas weve no idea if a pixie can use augments at all, and of course backup weapons become a problem as once again we're vaguely told heavy modification is necassary but given no actual hard crunch to work with.
As for Nagas, yeah can't really wrap my head around them... but again part of that is lack of hard crunch abour what they can and can't do... at least Hard Targets gave them a venomous bite.
tldr: Shadowrun isn't just what you think of it, so get over it.
I agree with Scythe about his points of mixing this stuff up, though I MUCH prefer pink mohawk to mirrored shades. I do also get why some folks don't, Shadowrun , can be run in so many ways and that's why I like it. Also, you can hold and shoot heavy weapons with nothign but your MIND, so why is a magical being doing so is hard?
As for Naga's having arms. WoW, L5R, and even Ancient paintings of them (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C4%81ga#/media/File:Indischer_Maler_um_1640_001.jpg) have arms.
Edited to add the mind bullets part.
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The lack of real rules is awful but I am constantly bemused by how many people here have a raging, priapic hate-boner for stuff like pixies.
(from the guy constantly screaming about how dongles are utterly degenerative for the game ;) )
Part of it is the rules. Part of it is the 'idea' of it. And (not a) small part of it is the player to wants these types of races....
You ALWAYS see the same builds, same posts, same crap, and it goes a little like this:
"I'm a special snowflake, so I need a special snowflake race to properly represent my snowflakyness. But, because I am a snowflake and I am creating a snowflake, I will not employ any reason or common sense to my snowflake character. Thus it is perfectly acceptable for my snowflake character to use and employ items that they have NO business using. But its OK, cause I am a snowflake!"
Nagas with railguns (when Nagas DO NOT HAVE ARMS!!)
Pixies with guns (its bigger then they are!!!)
Shifters with science degrees (its a FUCKING ANIMAL!)
NO, it is not an 'original' idea. NO, we don't have to 'respect' your 'rights' to be different. NO, we don't care if we hurt your little snowflake feelings with our crushing views of 'stupid common sense'.
That make it clear why some of us have an issue with some things?
So many times this.
I actually like Pink Mohawk, but this superspecialanoflakey stuff? Ugh no.
"My little Shadowrunner - Pixies are Magic"...
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I would be more than willing to allow all my players to play Pixies, cast magic, carry Panther XXLs, and give them bonus dice to all firearm attacks after having a Pixie orgy
I like the way you think.
...me too.
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I guess if a troll and a pixie can have a lover's spat, you can have your Roman parties.
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The lack of real rules is awful but I am constantly bemused by how many people here have a raging, priapic hate-boner for stuff like pixies.
(from the guy constantly screaming about how dongles are utterly degenerative for the game ;) )
"priapic hate-boner" is redundant ;)
Though to be honest, i wouldn't even allow pixies at the table, nor any other "special snowflake" freak.
I have the same mentality concerning Technomancers. The dumbest thing to exist in Shadowrun in my opinion. I would be more than willing to allow all my players to play Pixies, cast magic, carry Panther XXLs, and give them bonus dice to all firearm attacks after having a Pixie orgy, rather than ever allow a single player to play a Technomancer at my game.
I like Technomancers, though I wish they were capable / allowed to do more. I get it, it's all about game balance. But really... When everything about them is basically a very specific school of magic that focuses on affecting computers instead of the natural world, they should be ruling the Matrix. They should be like Neo, able to point at drones and have them fall from the sky. And when they go online, everything should be like Play-Doh. Which is why I got really irritated when I saw Street Grimoire introduce spells like Increase Noise or Increase Gear Rating. Why in the hell are we giving ordinary Mages spells to affect stuff like that. How do you turn Fireballs and Invisibility into faster computer processors? Those should be TM abilities right there. As it stands, they're basically mutants with the ability to do Decker stuff without a deck. Not really game breaking, and certainly fits with the theme of Shadowrun overall.
Now, Pixies on the other hand... the reason why I (and perhaps others) don't like them is b/c they simply don't fit the theme. Guns and gangs, criminals and corporations, money and magic, leather and lace. Shadowrun is dystopian cyberpunk. There is literally no reason to include Pixies. This isn't Peter Pan, this isn't My Little Pony, this isn't a Saturday morning cartoon. If you want your 7 year old niece to play, let her roll up something else. She doesn't get to be a sugarplum princess while I'm killing guards so we can steal the paydata.
...I have a couple issues with technomancers.
While basically an interesting concept they come off as little more than matrix mages since resonance is affected by implants. Now the whole transition period surrounding Crash 2.0 is kind of murky, however Technos effectively seem to be an outgrowth of the old Otaku. from 3E. (there is even a quality called Otaku to Technomancer). Many of the terms, Submersion, Echoes, Complex Forms, Sprites are shared by the two.
I played an Otaku (successfully may I add) in 3E. To function in the matrix two implants were required, a Datajack and ASIST converter which had no detrimental effect on the Living Persona. IN fact, Otaku could receive other implants as well with no ill side effects (other than Essence loss which didn't affect ones Persona). Also, any implants that enhanced an Otaku's mental attributes (except Charisma) also boosted linked aspects of the Persona and/or Hacking Pool..
When I first heard about Technomancers back in 4E they sounded really cool, until I learned about the whole Essence/Resonance loss thing. "What, go into a dangerous situation that potentially may erupt in a firefight with no meat world initiative boosting. You've got to be kidding!." Even a mage has access to spells that crank up the INT. Being stuck with one paltry die when the lead starts a flying is pretty discouraging especially when a mook with an AR or ganger with an SMG has a good chance of going before you do. Made me almost feel like that 1st level mage in D&D, "I fire my one Magic Missile spell, then go hide for the rest of the fight.".
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The lack of real rules is awful but I am constantly bemused by how many people here have a raging, priapic hate-boner for stuff like pixies.
(from the guy constantly screaming about how dongles are utterly degenerative for the game ;) )
Part of it is the rules. Part of it is the 'idea' of it. And (not a) small part of it is the player to wants these types of races....
You ALWAYS see the same builds, same posts, same crap, and it goes a little like this:
"I'm a special snowflake, so I need a special snowflake race to properly represent my snowflakyness. But, because I am a snowflake and I am creating a snowflake, I will not employ any reason or common sense to my snowflake character. Thus it is perfectly acceptable for my snowflake character to use and employ items that they have NO business using. But its OK, cause I am a snowflake!"
Nagas with railguns (when Nagas DO NOT HAVE ARMS!!)
Pixies with guns (its bigger then they are!!!)
Shifters with science degrees (its a FUCKING ANIMAL!)
NO, it is not an 'original' idea. NO, we don't have to 'respect' your 'rights' to be different. NO, we don't care if we hurt your little snowflake feelings with our crushing views of 'stupid common sense'.
That make it clear why some of us have an issue with some things?
So many times this.
I actually like Pink Mohawk, but this superspecialanoflakey stuff? Ugh no.
"My little Shadowrunner - Pixies are Magic"...
Way to be open minded you two. ::)
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Now, Orks on the other hand... the reason why I (and perhaps others) don't like them is b/c they simply don't fit the theme. Guns and gangs, criminals and corporations, money and magic, leather and lace. Shadowrun is dystopian cyberpunk. There is literally no reason to include Orkss. This isn't Lord of the Rings, this isn't WH40k, this isn't World of Warcraft. If you want your 7 year old nephew to play, let him roll up something else. He doesn't get to be Grommash Hellscream while I'm killing guards so we can steal the paydata.
This conversation can get weird really fast.
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Git offa my lawn!!!
<waves shotgun feebly from rockingchair on porch>
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Now, Orks on the other hand... the reason why I (and perhaps others) don't like them is b/c they simply don't fit the theme. Guns and gangs, criminals and corporations, money and magic, leather and lace. Shadowrun is dystopian cyberpunk. There is literally no reason to include Orkss. This isn't Lord of the Rings, this isn't WH40k, this isn't World of Warcraft. If you want your 7 year old nephew to play, let him roll up something else. He doesn't get to be Grommash Hellscream while I'm killing guards so we can steal the paydata.
This conversation can get weird really fast.
(https://bibliodeviant.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/win.jpg)
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Now, Orks on the other hand... the reason why I (and perhaps others) don't like them is b/c they simply don't fit the theme. Guns and gangs, criminals and corporations, money and magic, leather and lace. Shadowrun is dystopian cyberpunk. There is literally no reason to include Orkss. This isn't Lord of the Rings, this isn't WH40k, this isn't World of Warcraft. If you want your 7 year old nephew to play, let him roll up something else. He doesn't get to be Grommash Hellscream while I'm killing guards so we can steal the paydata.
This conversation can get weird really fast.
(https://bibliodeviant.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/win.jpg)
+1
Hough!
Medicineman
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Now, Orks on the other hand... the reason why I (and perhaps others) don't like them is b/c they simply don't fit the theme. Guns and gangs, criminals and corporations, money and magic, leather and lace. Shadowrun is dystopian cyberpunk. There is literally no reason to include Orkss. This isn't Lord of the Rings, this isn't WH40k, this isn't World of Warcraft. If you want your 7 year old nephew to play, let him roll up something else. He doesn't get to be Grommash Hellscream while I'm killing guards so we can steal the paydata.
This conversation can get weird really fast.
LOL
Thanks I needed a good laugh this morning :)
Let's see what we can do....
Now, Dwarves on the other hand... the reason why I (and perhaps others) don't like them is b/c they simply don't fit the theme. Guns and gangs, criminals and corporations, money and magic, leather and lace. Shadowrun is dystopian cyberpunk. There is literally no reason to include Dwarves. This isn't Snow White, this isn't Der Ring des Nibelungen, this isn't Under the Rainbow. If you want your 70 year old grandpa to play, let him roll up something else. He doesn't get to be Bruenor Battlehammer while I'm killing guards so we can steal the paydata.
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Way to be open minded you two. ::)
I'm pretty open minded, i tolerate basically every variant of swatting pixies.
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Guys I posted this not to mock Marcus Gideon.
I was just trying to tell how weird does this sentence sound to me.
I mean, yeah, Shadow run is cyberpunk, but take a look at the Pixie entry in Run Faster. There are some general info and then the first example of an actual in-universe pixie character. And it's a HITMAN. Which part of the word 'hitman' screams 'princess' to you? I don't recall princess Diana running around and gunning people down.
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Guys I posted this not to mock Marcus Gideon.
I was just trying to tell how weird does this sentence sounds to me.
I mean, yeah, Shadow run is cyberpunk, but take a look at the Pixie entry in Run Faster. There are some general info and then the first example of an actual in-universe pixie character. And it's a HITMAN. Which part of the word 'hitman' screams 'princess' to you? I don't recall princess Diana running around and gunning people down.
Careful there, you might get logic in their irrational hatred of a character type they don't have to paly.
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The lack of real rules is awful but I am constantly bemused by how many people here have a raging, priapic hate-boner for stuff like pixies.
(from the guy constantly screaming about how dongles are utterly degenerative for the game ;) )
"priapic hate-boner" is redundant ;)
Not really, a priapism is a very specific kind of boner :P
You ALWAYS see the same builds, same posts, same crap,
. . .
NO, it is not an 'original' idea. NO, we don't have to 'respect' your 'rights' to be different. NO, we don't care if we hurt your little snowflake feelings with our crushing views of 'stupid common sense'.
That make it clear why some of us have an issue with some things?
Eh you can make he "same build" argument about pretty much anything. That just boils down to some crappy mechanics pushing for optimal builds.
Anyway I just find the beardy rage hilarious instead of, like, just banning them at your table as PC options.
If anyone's familiar with Exalted I feel like pixies are this forum's version of a Lunars Thread.
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Guys I posted this not to mock Marcus Gideon.
I was just trying to tell how weird does this sentence sounds to me.
No mocking of Marcus was intended, which is why we twisted the name to reflect it being a parody of a parody.
Not to unlike the katana being underpowered (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Katanas_are_Underpowered_in_d20) and it's variants you see surface here from time to time....
edit: And actually my hit on dwarves was not entirely out of the blue.
They always came across as being thrown into the game because hey we got elves and dragons, we gotta have dwarves, but they never really hit their stride in game.
There is really nothing wrong with them, statwise or abilitywise, but just come across as meh....
Maybe because the niche was kind of taken over by tech. Sure they might be master metalworkers, but a nanoforge can whip up just about anything you want.
Or being crafters of fine weapons sort of pales with the plethora of stuff already out there.
Elves got the exotic mystique going on along with their own immortal clique. So you get to feel pretty and special by being among them.
Orcs are the scrappy underdogs who live fast and die young. So you get to rebel and wave two fingers at the MAN.
Trolls are physical force personified having to live in a world two sizes too small for them. So you are the gentle (or not so gentle) giant trying to make his way.
And Dwarves... well ... they get to live longer than humans and thermovision is nice, but nothing really sets them apart from just being in the background.
I don't recall princess Diana running around and gunning people down.
I bet there were days when she would have liked to go chase a few of the paparazzi down with an AK or at least the riding crop at times.
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My issue with Pixies isn't whether or not they should be able to use guns, it's how easy they can utterly and completely break the game. Mechanically speaking, they have far too many advantages and almost no disadvantages. Constant Concealment equal to their magic is bad enough, but they're tiny and can fly. You don't even have to try to unbalance the game when building a pixie, and that's why I've flat out banned them as PCs at my table.
To be fair, I've done the same to the other metasapients, and even some of the metavariants. Then again, my players are of much the same opinion that when you're trying to be a team of runners who pride themselves on the ability to remain in the shadows it's probably not the best idea to roll into town with a team that might as well be full of X-Men and who'll stand out like a sore thumb in a crowd.
Bottom line; if you want to have a game where all the metavariants and metasapients and SURGEd and infected are running around, be my guest. As long as you're having fun, I'm not going to knock your preference as long as you don't knock mine.
As for pixies with guns; if I were going to attempt this at my table I would reboot my efforts to use actual calibers of ammunition in Shadowrun. For example, I'd let a Pixie have a heavy pistol or an assault rifle, but they'd probably both be loaded with .22 caliber rounds. An assault cannon built for a Pixie might be chambered for a .308 round or similar. If I wanted to keep things simple I'd just let the weapon keep it's base range modifiers associated with the caliber; the work I've done so far on implementing calibers includes range modifiers, so a rifle firing a .308 round doesn't have the same range as a rifle firing a .338 round. Of course, this gets real complicated real fast, but I for one think this kind of approach makes a lot more sense than just allowing a pixie to fire a miniaturized heavy pistol with the same stats as a regular weapon.
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Pixies are small but hardly tiny:
Pixies stand under a half-meter tall, though their feet are rarely on the ground to measure them. Their wingspan measures approximately one meter across.
That's about 19 inches tall and about 39 inches across for the metric impaired. ;)
And I wouldn't call them broken, just incomplete. A lot like most of the other races in Run Faster to a greater or lesser extent. In need of a few house rules to fill in the gaps certainly but I wouldn't ban them for being snowflakes. Shadowrun is a world teeming with a menagerie of weirdness. The more there are the better I like it.
P.S. Don't be hating on the dwarves. They are short, stubborn and bad tempered. Reason enough to play them in my book. 8)
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I love how quickly a rules question devolves into "those are bad, you shouldn't play them".
In a setting that includes dragons and hellhounds and orks and elves, somehow a tiny winged person is less acceptable.
The answer to the original question is, you'll have to make up houserules because Catalyst left out the entire chapter on actual rules mechanics on playing metasapients, in a book that was supposed to cover rules mechanics for playing metasapients.
That big announcement on revamping the writing and errata processes? How long ago was that?
-k
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Pixies are small but hardly tiny:
Pixies stand under a half-meter tall, though their feet are rarely on the ground to measure them. Their wingspan measures approximately one meter across.
That's about 19 inches tall and about 39 inches across for the metric impaired. ;)
And I wouldn't call them broken, just incomplete. A lot like most of the other races in Run Faster to a greater or lesser extent. In need of a few house rules to fill in the gaps certainly but I wouldn't ban them for being snowflakes. Shadowrun is a world teeming with a menagerie of weirdness. The more there are the better I like it.
P.S. Don't be hating on the dwarves. They are short, stubborn and bad tempered. Reason enough to play them in my book. 8)
I feel like they're an example of something that should exist but don't really add much by being playable. Maybe better rules would change that. Idk.
I love sasquaches but they don't really need to be playable either. Stuff like that. You can have flavor and weird races but the fact that a thing exists in the world doesn't make it suitable for PCs in a system trying to evoke a specific gritty, urban, dystopian, anarchist tone.
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Pixies are small but hardly tiny:
Pixies stand under a half-meter tall, though their feet are rarely on the ground to measure them. Their wingspan measures approximately one meter across.
That's about 19 inches tall and about 39 inches across for the metric impaired. ;)
And I wouldn't call them broken, just incomplete. A lot like most of the other races in Run Faster to a greater or lesser extent. In need of a few house rules to fill in the gaps certainly but I wouldn't ban them for being snowflakes. Shadowrun is a world teeming with a menagerie of weirdness. The more there are the better I like it.
P.S. Don't be hating on the dwarves. They are short, stubborn and bad tempered. Reason enough to play them in my book. 8)
I feel like they're an example of something that should exist but don't really add much by being playable. Maybe better rules would change that. Idk.
I love sasquaches but they don't really need to be playable either. Stuff like that. You can have flavor and weird races but the fact that a thing exists in the world doesn't make it suitable for PCs in a system trying to evoke a specific gritty, urban, dystopian, anarchist tone.
I think that's fine for any given table but I still like the fact that options like these exists for those tables that want to include them.
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I too like having the option, even if I don't want to use it. That, and the options for using them as NPCs is great. I mean, I see Pixie, I immediately think Bug Shaman or some kind of Avenger Toxic who is pissed someone dumped waste in their forest. You need stats for it to be possible, though.
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I'm honestly surprised the issue of legitimate SINs hasn't popped up.
The only places that issue non-criminal SINs for pixies are France, NeoNET, and Evo.
In my mind, that helps balance pixies out.
That just gave me an idea for my next runner.
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PC Pixies can just be from France. It worked for the Coneheads. :D
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PC Pixies can just be from France. It worked for the Coneheads. :D
+1
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There are some general info and then the first example of an actual in-universe pixie character. And it's a HITMAN. Which part of the word 'hitman' screams 'princess' to you? I don't recall princess Diana running around and gunning people down.
Actually, thats one of the prime examples of why they fall im my "disgusting special snowflake shit".
Can't flesh out a charakter via his actions? Just slap on as many "awesome/unique/special" traits on him as you can imagine.
Leads to crap like Ancient goodytwoshoes Elvenvampire magicians, pixiehitmans or whatever bull, with a full flacon of "eau de Mary Sue" sprayed onto them.
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You call it crap, but other people enjoy characters like Red. Sure, his 'build' is special snowflake (though the only notably special thing is his 'Goblinizing' into an elf, the rest is documented/plausible), but there's good characterization, interesting plot-lines and other things that make it fun to read. He's also not a Gary Stu in the important respects; he's not automatically succeeding and rocking life, he has tough decisions to make, etc.
As pixies in Shadowrun are a sapient race, saying a pixie being a hitman is Mary Sue is ludicrous. Maybe you don't like the methodology, but why wouldn't a morally flexible tiny person with magical flight and stealth not take advantage of their capabilities and be an assassin? Especially in a dark and gritty setting like Shadowrun. Sure, they'd probaably be better off using magic or sneaking poison and things into people's stuff over packing a miniaturized rifle, but none of that is 'Mary Sue.' Hell, if you want to get technical the pixie has fleshed themselves out with their actions; they became a hitman.
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There are some general info and then the first example of an actual in-universe pixie character. And it's a HITMAN. Which part of the word 'hitman' screams 'princess' to you? I don't recall princess Diana running around and gunning people down.
Actually, thats one of the prime examples of why they fall im my "disgusting special snowflake shit".
Can't flesh out a charakter via his actions? Just slap on as many "awesome/unique/special" traits on him as you can imagine.
Leads to crap like Ancient goodytwoshoes Elvenvampire magicians, pixiehitmans or whatever bull, with a full flacon of "eau de Mary Sue" sprayed onto them.
So, a hitman is a special snowflake profession now. Do you want more spotlight for janitors and vendors on Jackpoint?
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So, a hitman is a special snowflake profession now. Do you want more spotlight for janitors and vendors on Jackpoint?
The hitman thing basically reminds me of how many people come to the chargen board with a character who's like "I AM A SNIPAR" and it's clear they have no concept of the normal scenarios of fights in shadowrun or how trying to play an archetypal sniper is likely to disappoint.
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It is.
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good characterization, interesting plot-lines and other things that make it fun to read
I fail to see anything with Red in it where something like this comes up.
Goes for most other of todays Jackpointers to, for what i'm concerned.
But them all in a bag, and throw them into mount doom, nothing of value would be lost. Maybe Clockwork, but hey, can't make an omlette...
he's not automatically succeeding and rocking life, he has tough decisions to make, etc.
I doubt that i would see it the same, but lets not get there, since, taste, etc. Instead, assuming you would be true, then why put all those shitty special snowflake attributes on him?
Wouldn't he be an interesting character, just by experiencing /interesting/ shit?
Why does he have to be a pre-awakening Magic User, and a Vampire and an Elf and an Magician and on tops of all that a oh so good person who mostly sticks to sucking out evildoers?
As an example of what i prefer, i (again) evoke the good old Dirk Montgomerey (both because he is fitting and because he is from some of the more widely known SR Books)
He is a Human.
Period
No fancy magic, no hyper powers, not chromed up beyond recognition.
A simple human.
Who loses an arm.
Which he gets replaced with some ordinary Cyberware, without hypershenanigans.
A loss, he really isn't happy about.
Yet its an incredibly well written character one can relate to.
Would his story gain anything from him being Cyberlizardmagic with a tank lower body replacement?
Not really.
If the first thing that comes to your mind when thinking about a jackpointer are his physical traits, then something is going plentifull wrong, in my humble opinion.
Speaking of Gary Stues, Mary Sues and whatsoever, i prefer this definition, though others from the page are also valid:
[spoiler]Mary Sue as Idealized Character
The interpretation that Mary Sue is a character that is idealized to a fault. A very influential interpretation, this one tends to get applied to most discussions. This theory posits that a Mary Sue is an unrealistically capable and virtuous character, one who simply lacks flaws and is depicted in an overly positive light. This tends to draw the most debate, as this model of character is extremely common, and also a lot more accepted than people give it credit for. Charles Dickens, one of the established classic authors, used to specialize in creating characters like this. A lot of characters in both male- and female-centric fiction simply lack meaningful flaws, but are more than accepted because they work as Escapism for the audience.
However, both this interpretation and a shift of society as a whole towards cynicism has led to many people trying to mask their otherwise idealized characters with either total non-flaws (e.g. being So Beautiful, It's A Curse and other Cursed with Awesome details), flaws by proxy (e.g. Dark and Troubled Past), or flaws that simply don't play any role in the plot at all (e.g. making a character an alcoholic, but never showing them as impeded by it). Often, this leads to a particular extreme where people start treating flaws themselves as Character Development and create a character that simply has no merits outside of being able to do the most basic biological functions (Anti-Sue). [/spoiler]
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue
Sure, they'd probaably be better off using magic or sneaking poison and things into people's stuff over packing a miniaturized rifle
Exactly the point that annoys me to hell.
Instead of chosing an option that makes sense, go for some total bollocks, just for the sake of special snowflakyness.
A pixie Assassin is questionable.
A pixie Assassin that uses a weapon that is basically diametral to the desired outcome, is just a ridiculous idea.
Its like a troll Assassin using a spoon to kill people.
Sure, it works /somehow/, but its supobtimal at best and makes no sense since it wastes all your positive target-oriented potential.
So, you have this small nimble critter, who is incredibly fragile and stands out like a pink elefant in a cage full of penguins due to its rarity, who has the glorious idea of picking up the bodily demanding task of killing people.
And of all the usefull things he could chose (poison, monowire, "accidens"), he uses a loud, clumsy weapon with quesionable lethality (small caliber gun) that requires him to get rather close to the target.
No, still doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
l the pixie has fleshed themselves out with their actions; they became a hitman.
Thats a short summary of occupation, not a fleshed out characterization.
So, a hitman is a special snowflake profession now
Stopy implying i said something that i didn't.
A Hitman isn't a special snowflake.
A Pixie working as a hitman with one of the most inconvenient weapons imaginable for him?
That is, indeed a very special snowflake.
Do you want more spotlight for janitors and vendors on Jackpoint
I'd be happy already if the self-inserts and (former) PC got pruned.
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There's really not enough written about that assassin pixie to make a judgement call about his snowflake status or not.
Just that A) he's using an unusual weapon (for a pixie), and B) he's willing to do wetwork.
Hell, the few lines given indicate the modded rifle may have been part of the public message that was being made, as much as the 'allowing himself to get caught and then escaping'. It sounds like whoever hired him did so as much for the news coverage as for the actual wetwork.
It which case the odd weapon choice makes perfect sense. It was meant to be seen.
If a pixie just wanted someone dead there's a million ways he could have performed the hit that wouldn't have even been noticed til it was too late.
-k
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Its an example for a concept. Debating the example isn't really relevant to the concept itself.
I'm not really giving enough f-words about this particular case of your-personal-opinion-on-the-matter-might-differ, but rather on the problem behind it:
Characters that (try to) compensate for the lack of good storytelling via an inherent amount of very rare "special" traits.
And sure, not every Pixie might be a special snowflake (#NotallXYZ!), but its IMHO a pretty good hint at what you probably can expect.
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Maybe try hating the bad writers/RPers than the race?
Or better yet, once again reqlize that theres more to Shadowrun than your personal opinion of what it should be and grow the F up.
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Maybe try hating the bad writers/RPers than the race?
Or better yet, once again reqlize that theres more to Shadowrun than your personal opinion of what it should be and grow the F up.
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner! I'm perfectly willing to complain about a rule I don't like but as far as I'm concerned the more content the better, even if I don't use all of it.
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Maybe try hating the bad writers/RPers than the race?
Or better yet, once again reqlize that theres more to Shadowrun than your personal opinion of what it should be and grow the F up.
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner! I'm perfectly willing to complain about a rule I don't like but as far as I'm concerned the more content the better, even if I don't use all of it.
(https://sirdoomsbadcompany.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/srmpl1.jpg)
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(https://sirdoomsbadcompany.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/srmpl1.jpg)
Yes, and?
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The hitman thing basically reminds me of how many people come to the chargen board with a character who's like "I AM A SNIPAR" and it's clear they have no concept of the normal scenarios of fights in shadowrun or how trying to play an archetypal sniper is likely to disappoint.
Eh, you can use a sniper rifle in a lot of the scenarios, but there's a reason every character I give the Longarms skill to generally uses a bargain sniper rifle, and sinks far more nuyen into a shotgun that has burst-fire capabilities. I see a sniper rifle in the same light as a condom; better to have it available for when you do need it (such as when Missions puts your decker out in B.F.E. with no WiFi and packs of paracritters attacking >:( ). It really boils down to where you are; in the CZ, unless you go inside some tight quarters, using a sniper rifle is fine.
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Pixies are small but hardly tiny:
Pixies stand under a half-meter tall, though their feet are rarely on the ground to measure them. Their wingspan measures approximately one meter across.
That's about 19 inches tall and about 39 inches across for the metric impaired. ;)
And I wouldn't call them broken, just incomplete. A lot like most of the other races in Run Faster to a greater or lesser extent. In need of a few house rules to fill in the gaps certainly but I wouldn't ban them for being snowflakes. Shadowrun is a world teeming with a menagerie of weirdness. The more there are the better I like it.
P.S. Don't be hating on the dwarves. They are short, stubborn and bad tempered. Reason enough to play them in my book. 8)
..especially in the UK and Tir na Nog.
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There's really not enough written about that assassin pixie to make a judgement call about his snowflake status or not.
Just that A) he's using an unusual weapon (for a pixie), and B) he's willing to do wetwork.
Hell, the few lines given indicate the modded rifle may have been part of the public message that was being made, as much as the 'allowing himself to get caught and then escaping'. It sounds like whoever hired him did so as much for the news coverage as for the actual wetwork.
It which case the odd weapon choice makes perfect sense. It was meant to be seen.
If a pixie just wanted someone dead there's a million ways he could have performed the hit that wouldn't have even been noticed til it was too late.
-k
...the Mental Manipulations Pixie.
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The hitman thing basically reminds me of how many people come to the chargen board with a character who's like "I AM A SNIPAR" and it's clear they have no concept of the normal scenarios of fights in shadowrun or how trying to play an archetypal sniper is likely to disappoint.
Eh, you can use a sniper rifle in a lot of the scenarios, but there's a reason every character I give the Longarms skill to generally uses a bargain sniper rifle, and sinks far more nuyen into a shotgun that has burst-fire capabilities. I see a sniper rifle in the same light as a condom; better to have it available for when you do need it (such as when Missions puts your decker out in B.F.E. with no WiFi and packs of paracritters attacking >:( ). It really boils down to where you are; in the CZ, unless you go inside some tight quarters, using a sniper rifle is fine.
...agreed.
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The hitman thing basically reminds me of how many people come to the chargen board with a character who's like "I AM A SNIPAR" and it's clear they have no concept of the normal scenarios of fights in shadowrun or how trying to play an archetypal sniper is likely to disappoint.
Eh, you can use a sniper rifle in a lot of the scenarios, but there's a reason every character I give the Longarms skill to generally uses a bargain sniper rifle, and sinks far more nuyen into a shotgun that has burst-fire capabilities. I see a sniper rifle in the same light as a condom; better to have it available for when you do need it (such as when Missions puts your decker out in B.F.E. with no WiFi and packs of paracritters attacking >:( ). It really boils down to where you are; in the CZ, unless you go inside some tight quarters, using a sniper rifle is fine.
This is not about people grabbing a sniper rifle, which I would encourage anyone with Longarms to do anyway. This is about people who think the game supports consistent play of sniper archetypes, when it generally doesn't. It boils down to system and setting knowledge.
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Most "lone wolf" character types don't do well in tabletop RPGs. Dedicated snipers included. They may seem cool as a concept but in actual play if you aren't playing a team character you're going to spend a lot of time doing nothing. Roleplaying games are a group activity, after all.
My point earlier was that the example of the assassin pixie with sniper rifle isn't a good example, when talking about special snowflake characters, because we are given so little information. As I said, the brief text given may even suggest he used that sniper rifle deliberately so it would get into the news - it was a 'public' assassination, meant to sent a message. For all we know the character may normally use other methods to kill people - it didn't say he ONLY used that weapon. Simply not enough info.
There are plenty of special snowflake characters in SR canon. That's just not a good example of one.
-k
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And again, "Special Snowflake" and "Mary Sue" characters are a failing of their creator and have nothing to do the system.
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Maybe try hating the bad writers/RPers than the race?
Or better yet, once again reqlize that theres more to Shadowrun than your personal opinion of what it should be and grow the F up.
And again, "Special Snowflake" and "Mary Sue" characters are a failing of their creator and have nothing to do the system.
Yes, it does.
The system (or rather, some parts of it) enables the characters, having rules for something encurages people to build something with it.. Sure, you CAN build a special snowflake Character without anything except the base book.
But it is a lot harder (=> you see a lot less at tables) compared to having the rules to build a Trans-Ork reptiloid Furry-Kin/ half-Metalpony who is posessed by a Vodoon, readily available without any hassle.
Setting would lose nothing of value if most of these freaks stayed as non-playable races.
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BadWrongFun: Are You Enjoying Yourself Correctly?
Fortunately, Run Faster was meant as a set of optional expansion rules, much like it's predecessors. If you don't like it, don't use it for your games. Others might want such things actually statted up.
My issue is that if you're going to have a book with rules on how the rules mechanics for X work, you might wanna actually put rules on how the rules mechanics for X work into that book.
-k
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My issue is that if you're going to have a book with rules on how the rules mechanics for X work, you might wanna actually put rules on how the rules mechanics for X work into that book.
-k
+1
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My issue is that if you're going to have a book with rules on how the rules mechanics for X work, you might wanna actually put rules on how the rules mechanics for X work into that book.
-k
+1
+2
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My issue is that if you're going to have a book with rules on how the rules mechanics for X work, you might wanna actually put rules on how the rules mechanics for X work into that book.
-k
+1
+2
+3
HougH!
Medicineman
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+4
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C-C-C-COMBOBREAKER!