Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Highroller86 on <01-03-16/1013:30>
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So yeah... Smartgun... Allright... I guess everybody knows it, a lot of you used it at some point,
but what the drek is it actually doing?
All i can get from da rulez (5th edition), is an increase in accuracy (+2) and (when utilizing the wireless bonus)
you get a +2 dice pool modifier for attacks with that gun... (Or +1 if you're a total wuss who is scared of cyber surgery (or a mage)).
Aaanyway...
Thing is: I've seen certain examples (in the core rules) where they mentioned Smartgun / Smartlink giving a bonus to recoil compensation,
or reducing penalty for strong wind... And also something about the take aim action where you'd normaly get EITHER +1 acc OR +1 dice pool.
So what i am asking you guys and gals is: Can someone out there sum up all of Smartgun / Smartlinks benefits for a dumdum like me?
Seriously... I can't figure it out. My [Logic] racial max for this is like... 3! I am not even the one writing this text. Ima troll with crayons
between his toes making pictures of what i want to know for the mental clinic personal! Halp!
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Incorporating a small camera and laser range finder, the
smartlink keeps track of ammunition, heat buildup, and
material stress
now for mechanical bonuses inherit to it regardless if wired or wiredless
you can mentally switch between gun modes, eject a clip, and fire
the gun without pulling the trigger. The camera lets
you shoot around corners without exposing yourself
to return fire (at a –3 dice pool penalty).
the smartgun system increases the gun’s Accuracy by 2
Provided you use an image link or wireless connection
Wireless bonus +1 +2 to dice pool tests using the weapon
if you use gear or cyber ware
Ejecting a clip and changing fire modes are Free Actions
it does all than and if theres wind modifers it shifts one row up
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Like Rooks said... the laser range finder and blah blah blah accounts for the Accuracy bonus.
The wireless bonus, and the wind adjustment is from the Gun itself connecting to the Matrix and getting up-to-date weather info.
Core pg 175, Wind
Wind speed can be a factor at the shooter’s position, the target’s position, and any position in between. Wind modifiers are mitigated by smartlink accessories that calculate adjustments before the shot
Core pg 214, The Matrix
Everybody uses the Matrix. Most shadowrunners have multiple pieces of gear that use it, often interacting with the Matrix without them knowing it. Smartlinks use it to look up local conditions and calculate firing solutions
However... the most "important" features that everyone attributes to Smartguns, are really features that every gun comes with standard.
Core pg 424, Firearms
Firearms come with wireless capability and a digital ammunition counter. Ammunition (p. 433) is sold separately. All firearms have the following wireless bonuses in addition to any wireless bonuses on each model:
Wireless: The weapon displays an ARO that tells you ammo levels and ammo type loaded. If you have a DNI, you get two additional benefits. First, ejecting a clip (for weapons that have them) is a Free Action rather than a Simple Action. Second, changing fire modes (on models that have more than one) is a Free Action rather than a Simple Action.
So when the Smartgun text talks about ejecting the magazine and switching fire modes... it's just repeating things you could have done anyway.
The only things a Smartgun adds, is the Accuracy bonus, the bonus to attack, and the Wind mitigation, and a camera (for corner shots, or shooting in the dark if you get it modded with Low-Light or Thermo).
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The wireless bonus makes more sense if it connects to the bullets it is firing rather than to the general matrix. The idea is that the bullet sends back a signal until impact. The smartgun ballistics computer can take the actual impact and compare it to the predicted impact and thus make a correction. This is the same way that snipers use spotters. In this way, all the environmental conditions apply and then get corrected with real world conditions rather than some computer model.
The downside to this is that logically, it shouldn't apply to the first round fired at a target/environmental condition. However, most people are using automatics so this can be mitigated by the other rounds.
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Alright! I think i got it now, thanks! :)
Turns out the +2RC i mentioned was for the (Ingram)-Smartgun... The SMG... Not for the Smartgun system.
By the way... (And sorry for Off-Topic) Is there like... An Arsenal for SR5 out already?
I know SR3 and SR4 had their own, so... :-\
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The wireless bonus makes more sense if it connects to the bullets it is firing rather than to the general matrix. The idea is that the bullet sends back a signal until impact. The smartgun ballistics computer can take the actual impact and compare it to the predicted impact and thus make a correction. This is the same way that snipers use spotters. In this way, all the environmental conditions apply and then get corrected with real world conditions rather than some computer model.
The downside to this is that logically, it shouldn't apply to the first round fired at a target/environmental condition. However, most people are using automatics so this can be mitigated by the other rounds.
Which is how Smartlink works in conjunction with Throwing Knives. Down to the "doesn't work for the first one thrown." But... I know some combats that don't last past the first Initiative roll, so people expect every bullet to count.
Alright! I think i got it now, thanks! :)
Turns out the +2RC i mentioned was for the (Ingram)-Smartgun... The SMG... Not for the Smartgun system.
By the way... (And sorry for Off-Topic) Is there like... An Arsenal for SR5 out already?
I know SR3 and SR4 had their own, so... :-\
Right... the Ingram Smartgun has a lot of accessories built in. So you have to look at the combined bonuses, and recognize which accessory gave what.
SR5 has Run & Gun and a couple Gun H(e)aven books. That's about all you get for new guns so far.
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now what I dont get is for drones do you need to buy the smart link as a sensor then the smart link ascyberware/visual mod for your glasses and the like now theres also the smart soft and what does that do plus theres a senor upgrade for a single sensor, well smartlink is a sensor but what does that entail? is it just a camera feed is it thermal graphic can you see in the dar k ith it?
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Rigger 5.0 pg 127, Smartsoft
This is the same smartlink provided in eyeware or video enhancements, integrated into the sensors of a vehicle or drone. The Smartsoft is considered a Rating 3 autosoft and allows the full use of smart weapons.
According to that, you just run the Autosoft. It automatically incorporates itself into whatever sensors the drone has, and lets it use Smartguns. Now that doesn't mean that every weapon fitted becomes a Smartgun, just that any with the accessory already, will count.
When you install Smartlink in your Eyeware, you're just installing the program that creates the heads-up display and processes the data from the Gun. The sensors and stuff are in the Gun, which includes a camera that you can mod. So if you pay extra to add Thermal to the camera in your Gun, you can do that. It means you can see in the dark, so long as you're pointing your gun at it.
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the smartgun system increases the gun’s Accuracy by 2
Provided you use an image link or wireless connection
You have to have an image link or wireless turned on for this? Isn't that what the smartlink eyeware is for?
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I stumbled across this:
WIRELESS SMARTGUN
A wireless smartgun connection provides an assortment
of bonuses, but this table only provides the bonus you get
while using it to attack. When aiming (using the Take Aim
action) with a smartgun system the shooter gets both bo-
nuses with each action of aiming.
Emphasis mine. I never noticed this before, but if I take the aiming action, I could get up to +3 dice for each single action that I spend aiming with a wireless smartgun.
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I stumbled across this:
WIRELESS SMARTGUN
A wireless smartgun connection provides an assortment
of bonuses, but this table only provides the bonus you get
while using it to attack. When aiming (using the Take Aim
action) with a smartgun system the shooter gets both bo-
nuses with each action of aiming.
Emphasis mine. I never noticed this before, but if I take the aiming action, I could get up to +3 dice for each single action that I spend aiming with a wireless smartgun.
Gonna rain on your parade here and clarify that it refers to the Accuracy/Dice Pool bonus. Every Take Aim action gives you +1 Acc and +1 die, whereas not having a smartgun only gives you one of the with each Take Aim action.
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I stumbled across this:
WIRELESS SMARTGUN
A wireless smartgun connection provides an assortment
of bonuses, but this table only provides the bonus you get
while using it to attack. When aiming (using the Take Aim
action) with a smartgun system the shooter gets both bo-
nuses with each action of aiming.
Emphasis mine. I never noticed this before, but if I take the aiming action, I could get up to +3 dice for each single action that I spend aiming with a wireless smartgun.
Gonna rain on your parade here and clarify that it refers to the Accuracy/Dice Pool bonus. Every Take Aim action gives you +1 Acc and +1 die, whereas not having a smartgun only gives you one of the with each Take Aim action.
I did read the german book first, which translated it into my statement. To be fair, it can be read both ways. Wouldn't be the first translation issue. So which one is it?
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Take Aim action, page 166 in Core:
"The maximum bonus a character may gain from sequential Take Aim actions, either to her limit or her dice pool, is equal to one-half the character’s Willpower, rounded up. Each Take Aim action applies a +1 dice pool modifier or +1 Accuracy increase to the Attack Test."
Wireless Smartgun, page 178 in Core:
"A wireless smartgun connection provides an assortment of bonuses, but this table only provides the bonus you get while using it to attack. When aiming (using the Take Aim action) with a smartgun system the shooter gets both bonuses with each action of aiming."
Why would it give +3 dice?
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Because the paragraph about "Wireless Smartgun" talks about "gets both bonuses", which could reference the bonus from a wireless smartgun (+1/+2) and the bonus from aiming (either +1 acc or +1 die), which then are both applied for each simple action you spend on aiming.
So with the right cybergear and taking the option of +1 die from the "Take aim action" I could get +3 dice.
That's how I got to "up to 3 dice for each single action".
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Yes, if you have a Smartgun, you get +2 Accuracy (usually factored in already) and +1/+2 to attack (depending whether you're using implanted Smartlink or just Eyeware). On top of that, Take Aim gives you +1 Accuracy AND +1 attack. So in total, you would have +3 Accuracy and +3 attack (assuming implant). So yes, there is are +3's in the equation.
The "argument" may have been in thinking that somehow, every time you Take Aim, you would add another +3 to the roll. Which is not the case, since Take Aim only builds a cumulative +1/+1 up to half your Willpower's worth. So a gunner with Willpower 4 can Take Aim twice at the most. Which would be +4 Accuracy and +4 attack, total.
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Ah, I see. However, Marcus Gideon is correct.
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Just a minor correction: Smartguns give you always +2 Acc, the DP bonus is dependent on if its connected to an implanted smartlink or only an exterior version.
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Just a minor correction: Smartguns give you always +2 Acc, the DP bonus is dependent on if its connected to an implanted smartlink or only an exterior version.
*ninja edit*
Right, +2... that's what I said. =)
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the smartgun system increases the gun’s Accuracy by 2
Provided you use an image link or wireless connection
You have to have an image link or wireless turned on for this? Isn't that what the smartlink eyeware is for?
The smartlink processes the info from the smartgun sytem... the dni lets yur brain see tat information...or lacking dni, you use an image link. That all it does is process the information begs the question why it has to be eyewear?
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I've seen GMs house rule that you can buy the Smartlink add-on, and install it as software on your Commlink or Deck. Then use the auto Image Link that DNI gives you, to get the imagery beamed straight into your melon.
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the smartgun system increases the gun’s Accuracy by 2
Provided you use an image link or wireless connection
You have to have an image link or wireless turned on for this? Isn't that what the smartlink eyeware is for?
The smartlink processes the info from the smartgun sytem... the dni lets yur brain see tat information...or lacking dni, you use an image link. That all it does is process the information begs the question why it has to be eyewear?
But you don't need wireless for the +2 accuracy, right? Also, if it is allowed to be used with an image link instead of smartlink, why do they have the smartlink option on the eyeware? Wouldn't everyone just choose the $25 image link over the $2,000 (and not to mention availabilty 4R) smartlink? Does it say somewhere that you CAN use the image link in lieu of smartlink?
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I think there are some wires being crossed with 4th edition. Previously, you needed an imagelink and smartlink in the same device in order to get the smartlink bonus.
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>> But you don't need wireless for the +2 accuracy, right?
right
>>Does it say somewhere that you CAN use the image link in lieu of smartlink?
nope, nowhere
HougH!
Medicineman
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The problem is the terminology smartlink (and the fact that is eyeware) sounds like it a specialized image link just for the smartgun system.
In actuality it seems to be more like a co-processor...
For me..in addition to vision items(glasses etc) and cybereyes, if you have DNI, it should go into any cyberware that has capacity.
If you can put your deck in your cybertorso, why not the smartlink?
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When you pay for the Smart link, what you're getting is the software that processes data from the gun, calculates trajectories, and creates a combat heads up display. Your typical Image Link doesn't handle all that extra processing, it just does basic Matrix imagery.
So you have to use Eyeware capable of Image Link, since that covers the ability to generate graphics. But you still need the specific software to handle the combat side of things. That's why you can't replace one with the other.
Simply having a graphics card driver does not replace the need to buy and install Call of Duty separately.
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Earlier editions described the smartgun system as follows:
1. You've got the gun, modified to be smart. This includes a small camera and the various activators needed for the gun to operate from the smartlink.
2. There is a connector to the smartlink. This was an induction pad in the hand, a cable to a datajack, cable to smart goggles, or in 4th ed and later, a wireless connection.
3. There is an image display, either in the eye or eyewear.
4. There's a partial simrig that tells the system what the user's position is.
5. There's a ballistics computer.
When you are adjudicating, figure out if all those bases are covered.
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ok so for drones or vehicles you would need a visual device that had smart link installed then smartlink installed in the gun then smartlink installed as a sensor in the vehicle/drone? cause run and gun packages treat the smartlink as a sensor but then theres the smartsoft from rigger 5 that lets you use smartlink on any drone without it using it as a sensor?
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As of Rigger 5, a drone would only need the smartgun system on a weapon, and the smartsoft program. Later publications take precedence over older.
This is the same smartlink provided in eyeware or video enhancements, integrated into the sensors of a vehicle or drone.
No need for visual devices; the smartlink is integrated into the sensors and the smartsoft "is considered a Rating 3 Autosoft that allows the full use of smart weapons".
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Which, if that's the case... I think lends credence to loading the Smartlink software into your Comm or Deck and getting the imagery piped straight to your noggin with DNI. That would save people from having to buy Eyeware, or get implants, if they already use Trodes or a Datajack anyway. Stick with the same rules, if you're using Trodes you only get +1, but a Datajack gets +2.
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Except a commlink can't run autosofts without a program carrier, and even then it wouldn't be "integrated into the sensors" of your character. Don't forget, a sensor array starts at a minimum of 2000 nuyen, but is included with all drones and vehicles for less due to mass production.
Can it be house ruled? Sure, but why would you want to? The mechanics already exist for how metahuman characters interact with smart weapons, and you need a smart weapon and a smartlink, either in a visual device or installed as cyberware. Seems like a no-brainer to me, what with the everything has a price theme of this edition.
No such thing as a free lunch; if I could run the software off my link and not have to buy expensive gear, why would I choose any other option?
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That's not really my point. I'm not talking about running this precise Autosoft on my Commlink. I'm just talking about taking the Smartlink software that is in that Autosoft, which is also in the Smartlink implant, which is also installed into your Glasses or Goggles when you get Smartlink installed... and installing that software itself into your Commlink as a typical program.
Then, since all it does is process data from the Gun, and generate a HUD, it can do so through your Trodes or Datajack, instead of generating it directly in your eyeball (with a fleshy implant), or on the lenses of your Goggles. You'd still be paying the full nu¥en price for the software, and you'd still be paying the Essence for a Datajack with +2 bonus. Or if you went with non-invasive Trodes, you'd only get +1 bonus.
It's not "a free lunch" by any means. It's just a different way of getting the HUD.
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Completely up to you, of course, as a house rule. Not for me, but your mileage may vary.
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When you pay for the Smart link, what you're getting is the software that processes data from the gun, calculates trajectories, and creates a combat heads up display. Your typical Image Link doesn't handle all that extra processing, it just does basic Matrix imagery.
So you have to use Eyeware capable of Image Link, since that covers the ability to generate graphics. But you still need the specific software to handle the combat side of things. That's why you can't replace one with the other.
Simply having a graphics card driver does not replace the need to buy and install Call of Duty separately.
If you look at my first posts, you'll see I stated you need image link or dni to visualize the smartlinks info.
My point in the second post, is whether you see smartlink as a co-processor processing the info from the smartgun system or as a software bundle processing the info, if you have dni it doesn't need to be in your eye. It doesn't enhance your eye in any way fashion or form.
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When you pay for the Smart link, what you're getting is the software that processes data from the gun, calculates trajectories, and creates a combat heads up display. Your typical Image Link doesn't handle all that extra processing, it just does basic Matrix imagery.
So you have to use Eyeware capable of Image Link, since that covers the ability to generate graphics. But you still need the specific software to handle the combat side of things. That's why you can't replace one with the other.
Simply having a graphics card driver does not replace the need to buy and install Call of Duty separately.
If you look at my first posts, you'll see I stated you need image link or dni to visualize the smartlinks info.
My point in the second post, is whether you see smartlink as a co-processor processing the info from the smartgun system or as a software bundle processing the info, if you have dni it doesn't need to be in your eye. It doesn't enhance your eye in any way fashion or form.
I think it has to be dependent on the eye, otherwise wouldn't it be in bodyware or somewhere else? Perhaps it senses where your eye is looking. Is the wireless connection (that connects to the matrix) built into the gun or your eye? The entry for throwing knives says that the knives themselves have access (or infer it, anyway).
Anyway, The first sentence under smartgun system specifies connecting to the user's smartlink, Then, under vision enhancements, it says (smartlink) works with a smartgun system to give you the full benefit of the system, and without a smartlink a smartgun system just sends out data that isn't received by anyone and has no effect. I think all this supports that you have to have the smartlink specifically installed, image link just won't cut it. Seeing as in all aspects smartlink is more expensive than the alternatives, I think this all points to needing smartlink to make a smartgun work.
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It really doesn't sense where your eye is looking- it can go in glasses for example...while the glasses are pointed where your head is, your eyes could be looking toward the side.
In any event, it processes where the smartgun camera is looking (which lines up with the barrel).
remember, you can shoot around corners because the camera gives you sight.
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It really doesn't sense where your eye is looking- it can go in glasses for example...while the glasses are pointed where your head is, your eyes could be looking toward the side.
In any event, it processes where the smartgun camera is looking (which lines up with the barrel).
remember, you can shoot around corners because the camera gives you sight.
Both of these can still detect where your eyeball is looking. Glasses can have a small sensor detecting which way you are looking. I wasn't referring to the fact that the gun has a camera on it, I was questioning why it has to be eyeware. different subjects.
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The "argument" may have been in thinking that somehow, every time you Take Aim, you would add another +3 to the roll.
Yes, that is exactly the way it I described it, and a way in which it can be read. Unfortunately nothing was presented to refute my claim.
Which is not the case, since Take Aim only builds a cumulative +1/+1 up to half your Willpower's worth. So a gunner with Willpower 4 can Take Aim twice at the most. Which would be +4 Accuracy and +4 attack, total.
Yes, aiming will only help you build up a modifier up to wil/2 rounded up to accuracy or dice pool when aiming. However, the sentence under "Wireless Smartgun" could fill this limit more quickly.
I hope I can clear my intentions with an example.
Case 1:
Lets say I have Agility 6, Pistols 6, Willpower 5 and a non-wireless smartgun and implanted smartlink connections.
My pool for shooting normally is 12 dice.
I can use "Take Aim" for 3 simple actions and get 1 die per simple action which means I would have 12 + 3 (aiming) = 15 dice.
Case 2:
Lets say I have Agility 6, Pistols 6, Willpower 5 and a wireless smartgun and implanted smartlink connections.
My pool for shooting normally is 14 dice.
I can use "Take Aim" for 1 simple action and get 1 die for the normal "Take Aim" action and +2 dice for a "Wireless Smartgun" 14 + 3 (aiming) = 17 dice.
Now lets up the willpower to 11:
Case 3:
Lets say I have Agility 6, Pistols 6, Willpower 11 and a non-wireless smartgun and implanted smartlink connections.
My pool for shooting normally is 12 dice.
I can use "Take Aim" for 6 simple actions and get 1 die per simple action which means I would have 12 + 6 (aiming) = 18 dice.
Case 4:
Lets say I have Agility 6, Pistols 6, Willpower 11 and a wireless smartgun and implanted smartlink connections.
My pool for shooting normally is 14 dice.
I can use "Take Aim" for 2 simple actions and get 1 die for the normal "Take Aim" action and +2 dice for a "Wireless Smartgun" for each simple action spent aiming, which means 14 + 6 (aiming) = 20 dice,
since under "Wireless Smartgun" there is:
"A wireless smartgun connection provides an assortment of bonuses, but this table only provides the bonus you get while using it to attack. When aiming (using the Take Aim action) with a smartgun system the shooter gets both bonuses with each action of aiming."
Again, because "both bonuses" could mean the chosen bonus of the "Take Aim" action in the table and the "Wireless Smartgun" bonus of the table on page 176.
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Take Aim only has two bonuses; +1 Accuracy, or +1 Dice Pool. The +2 Dice Pool of a Wireless Smartgun (if the smartlink is implanted) has nothing to do with Take Aim.
When you use Take Aim with a wireless smartgun, you get both +1 Accuracy and +1 Dice Pool for each action of Take Aim.
It really is that simple. Your case 2 and 4 misrepresent the rules, as per the above.
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Take Aim only has two bonuses; +1 Accuracy, or +1 Dice Pool. The +2 Dice Pool of a Wireless Smartgun (if the smartlink is implanted) has nothing to do with Take Aim.
Yes it does. The wireless smartgun modifies the bonus of the Take Aim action.
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*sighs*
Yes, it does, but not in the way you think.
The Take Aim action is modified by the wireless smartgun, but only so far as granting both +1 accuracy and +1 dice pool bonus when taking aim. The additional +2 for using a wireless smartgun is unrelated to the take aim action.
Let me break it down.
1. Page 433 states the following:
Wireless: A wireless smartlink provides a dice pool bonus to all attacks with the weapon: +1 if you’re using gear with a smartlink or +2 if you’re using an augmentation for which you paid Essence. Ejecting a clip and changing fire modes are Free Actions.
Notice how this dice pool bonus only applies to attacks.
2. Page 178 states the following:
When aiming (using the Take Aim action) with a smartgun system the shooter gets both bonuses with each action of aiming.
This clearly indicates that "both bonuses" refers only to when the Take Aim action is used. The text literally spells out "using the Take Aim action" for you.
3. Page 166 states the following:
Each Take Aim action applies a +1 dice pool modifier OR +1 Accuracy increase to the Attack Test.
Simply put:
Take Aim is a Simple Action that, when taken with a weapon equipped with a wireless smartgun, confers both bonuses. Both bonuses in this case refers to "+1 dice pool modifier or +1 Accuracy".
Fire Weapon is a Simple or Complex action that, when taken with a weapon equipped with a wireless smartgun, grants the shooter a pool modifier depending on how the smartgun is accessed.
When using Take Aim with a wireless smartgun, read the sentence on page 166 like this:
Each Take Aim action applies a +1 dice pool modifier OR AND +1 Accuracy increase to the Attack Test.
I really can't make it clearer than that.
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I like the idea of being able to install Smartlink on anything that can run it. And it really isn't so OP to do. CitizenJoe's post nicely outlines the components of the system:
1. The modded gun, This doesn't change.
2. The ballistic computer that takes the info from the gun and other available sources (the matrix, but also potentially sensors on the bullets or user) and uses it to provide firing solutions
3. A connection between the ballistic computer and the gun
4. A display
5. A connection between the ballistic computer and the display
In SR5, so far, there is no skin link option, so the connection between the gun and computer is wireless in most cases, but wired is an option. In the default configuration, the connection between the computer and the display is that the computer is part of the display - 2000¥ worth of hardware and software. We can now determine that approximately 1500¥ of that was the software from the autosoft cost (this is malleable as the software for the visual modification is likely vastly simplified as it only needs to interface with its custom hardware and a smaller subset of potential sensor types). In this new paradigm, you need at least a rating 3 device in order to run the software - that's a 1000¥ commlink or a rating 3 RCC/deck, where it also takes up a program slot. You can view the 500¥ (roughtly) of hardware from the visual enhancement as a highly specialized, single (unmodifiable) program slot R3 computer. In other words, we can further break down the ballistic computer into software and processing power. Smartlink is the software, and it requires a rating 3 program slot worth of processing power. Normal cyberware doesn't provide a program slot, but you could attach a program carrier to any DR3 or higher device and use it to run the smartlink. I would, however, rule that the 900¥ cost of the program carrier does not, in this case, include the cost of the program.
The display could be imagelink or DNI. The connection between the device running smartlink and the display is usually going to be wireless, but if you are paranoid, you could use wires.
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Take Aim only has two bonuses; +1 Accuracy, or +1 Dice Pool. The +2 Dice Pool of a Wireless Smartgun (if the smartlink is implanted) has nothing to do with Take Aim.
Yes it does. The wireless smartgun modifies the bonus of the Take Aim action.
No...the +2DP(or+1 if not cybernetic) modifier from the smartgun is the smartgun's wireless bonus. Nothing- absolutely nothing- to do with Take Aim.
When aiming (using the Take Aim action) with a smartgun system the shooter gets both bonuses with each action of aiming.
There are two bonuses with Take Aim, +1 DP and +1 Accuracy.
Normally you have to choose one or the other.
With Smartgun you get both the DP and the Accuracy bonus.
It's that simple.
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Agreed.
The +2 Accuracy and +1/+2 dice are bonuses for having a Smartgun and Smartlink (implanted or not). Those bonuses apply no matter what.
When you Take Aim with an ordinary weapon, each action spent Taking Aim either gives you +1 Accuracy OR +1 dice. If you wanted +1 to both, you'd have to spend 2 actions Taking Aim.
If you have a Smartgun and Smartlink, you get both the +1 Accuracy and +1 dice for every Take Aim action. If you Take Aim twice, you get +2 Accuracy and +2 dice total. If you Take Aim 5 times you get +5 and +5.
YOU DO NOT get to compound the normal Smartlink bonuses into +3 and +3... and then proceed to add an extra +3 and +3 every time you Take Aim... and try to make it into +6 or +9 or +12.
This is wrong, and you are wrong for thinking so. Incorrect. Mistaken. Erroneous. Inaccurate. False.
Nope
Nope
Nope
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You forgot fallacious.
Just saying.
Hey- Philosophy class in college had a professor whose jeans where two sizes too tight on her.. so I have a fondness for the word.
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.....ooO( .... fallacious....sounds to me a bit like fellatio....)
With a Dance in Thoughts
Medicineman
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I should have seen that coming
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I should have seen that coming
Ba-dum *crash!*
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I should have seen that coming
Ba-dum *crash!*
Well one bad pun deserves another.
“Hey boy, what’s the idea jackin’ that pot up under me? Jack? Pot? Ahuh, huh … jack pot, that’s a joke son, don’t ya get it?"
Of course, I'm dating myself <I think there may be another pun in there somewhere>
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Gradivus
Take Your Meds and go to Bed ! ( you have an unpleasant Date tomorrow, better grab some Sleep ...Now ! ...)
HougH!
Medicineman
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@Herr Brackhaus
@gradivus
@Marcus Gideon
I know you must be thinking that I'm dense. I am not.
My argument only arose, because I read the german rulebook first. The way they translated it, one would add the wireless bonus of a smartgun to every take aim action (on top of the usual wireless bonus to the dicepool).
Then I read the english rules, and I got the feeling it could be a false translation. However nothing in the english language that I know of would prevent the reading the official translaters did.
If it would be just this sentence under "Wireless Smartgun"
When aiming (using the Take Aim action) with a smartgun system the shooter gets both bonuses with each action of aiming.
It would be unambiguous.
To my understanding of the english language, in the original text it would require the addendum of the bolded part to be unambiguous.
A wireless smartgun connection provides an assortment of bonuses, but this table only provides the bonus you get while using it to attack. When aiming (using the Take Aim action) with a smartgun system the shooter gets both bonuses of the "Take Aim" action with each action of aiming.
Otherwise it could be read like the official translators did.
Thanks for your time and stop smashing your desks with your heads, I can hear it. :P
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To my understanding of the english language, in the original text it would require the addendum of the bolded part to be unambiguous.
A wireless smartgun connection provides an assortment of bonuses, but this table only provides the bonus you get while using it to attack. When aiming (using the Take Aim action) with a smartgun system the shooter gets both bonuses of the "Take Aim" action with each action of aiming.
Otherwise it could be read like the official translators did.
Thanks for your time and stop smashing your desks with your heads, I can hear it. :P
That addition would only be necessary if the first part of the sentence didn't already exist. The fact that the line says " When aiming (using the Take Aim action)" is enough to specify that you get both bonuses of the Take Aim action. That sentence is not ambiguous as far as I'm concerned, because we are only talking about the Take Aim action with a wireless smartgun, so the normal wireless bonus does not matter.
Can you post what the German book reads like (in German), please? I'm curious now.
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Sure thing:
KABELLOSE SMARTGUN
Ein Smartgunsystem mit kabellosem Smartlink verleiht eine Reihe von Boni, aber in dieser Tabelle geht es nur um den Bonus für den Angriff. Wenn ein Charakter mit einer Einfachen Handlung Zielen zielt, erhält er bei einer Smartgun auch diesen Bonus für jede Handlung Zielen hinzu.
"diesen Bonus" has to relate to the bonus in the sentence before.
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@Herr Brackhaus
@gradivus
@Marcus Gideon
I know you must be thinking that I'm dense. I am not.
The thought never crossed my mind. =)
As you said, translation confusion can happen. Not to mention the writers are horrible at their jobs. And the fact that Take Aim is on Pg 166 and that blurb about Smartlink is on Pg 178 is yet another example of how even the simplest questions require cross-referencing the book to get an answer.
Core pg 166, Take Aim
Each Take Aim action applies a +1 dice pool modifier or +1 Accuracy increase to the Attack Test.
Core pg 178, Wireless Smartgun
When aiming (using the Take Aim action) with a smartgun system the shooter gets both bonuses with each action of aiming.
They're already drawing attention to Take Aim before they say "both bonuses", which means they are referring to the +1 dice OR +1 Accuracy for every action spent Aiming. Only now you get both +1's for every action spent Aiming.
Especially when you take the rest of the page in context. All of the descriptions on Pg 177-178 are referring to the Situational Modifiers chart on Pg 176. It lists bonuses for Attacker firing from cover, Attacker firing from a moving vehicle, etc.
The blurb right above Smartlink is talking about Taking Aim. And it reiterates that Take Aim gives a bonus to dice pool OR Accuracy. Then when you keep reading, Smartlink says now you get both. So they're not meant to be read as completely separate and distinct bulletpoints, the narrative is meant to flow from one to the next and continue the thought. "Here's what happens when someone with an ordinary weapon repeatedly Takes Aim. And here's what happens if you have a Smartgun instead."
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Gatlack
Thanks for posting that. I'd agree that the German entry has the same problem the English one does, and that I think I see where your confusion comes from now. Let's break it down.
Both the English and German entries contain two sentences. The first talks about the wireless smartgun system in the context of Situational Modifiers, and I presume the German rulebook has a table similar to the English one as both the German and English entries refer to "this table". Now, this is extremely important, because the sentence itself provides the context by referring to "this table".
English: "but this table only provides the bonus you get while using it to attack."
German: "aber in dieser Tabelle geht es nur um den Bonus für den Angriff."
That means that the +1/+2 bonus listed in the table only applies when used to attack. Why is this important? Because "Take Aim" is not an attack action. How do we know this? Because under the core rules, you can only take one attack action per phase, but you can take multiple Take Aim actions in a phase.
So, if the +1/+2 bonus from the table only applies when making an attack action (Fire Weapon, essentially), what does the second sentence refer to?
English: When aiming (using the Take Aim action) with a smartgun system
German: Wenn ein Charakter mit einer Einfachen Handlung Zielen zielt
These both refer only to the Take Aim action (or literally translated, "when a character (takes) a simple action (to) aim"), and as such separates the previous sentence (which refers to the table bonuses) from the Take Aim action.
Anyway; I think we can all agree that these sentences could both be improved to be more clear, but I don't really think you'll be able to convince any GMs that you should get the +1/+2 dice pool bonus for having a wireless smartgun apply whenever you use the Take Aim action on the basis of vague, but not wholly incomprehensible, grammar. If you still think that's the case, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Not to mention the writers are horrible at their jobs.
Very Harsh Mr.Gideon. ???
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Not to mention the writers are horrible at their jobs.
Very Harsh Mr.Gideon. ???
Have you read these books? Of course you have =)
There is not a single aspect of Shadowrun that doesn't require some degree of cross referencing or interpretation to understand. None of these rules are every clear or concise, and once you start adding in supplements, many of them become contradictory.
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There is not a single aspect of Shadowrun that doesn't require some degree of cross referencing or interpretation to understand. None of these rules are every clear or concise, and once you start adding in supplements, many of them become contradictory.
Hyperbole much? While I agree that the rules could be more concise, that's taking it a little too far.
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Not to mention the writers are horrible at their jobs.
Very Harsh Mr.Gideon. ???
Have you read these books? Of course you have =)
There is not a single aspect of Shadowrun that doesn't require some degree of cross referencing or interpretation to understand. None of these rules are every clear or concise, and once you start adding in supplements, many of them become contradictory.
Of course I'm not saying your wrong on the many issues. I'm simply saying decorum sir, decorum! lol :D
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Of course I'm not saying your wrong on the many issues. I'm simply saying decorum sir, decorum! lol :D
Ahhh, the voice of moderation. It is so often seen, but the internet so rarely hears. A totally worthless +1 to you, sir.
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Not to mention the writers are horrible at their jobs.
Very Harsh Mr.Gideon. ???
Have you read these books? Of course you have =)
There is not a single aspect of Shadowrun that doesn't require some degree of cross referencing or interpretation to understand. None of these rules are every clear or concise, and once you start adding in supplements, many of them become contradictory.
The rounding rule CRB pg48 is rather clear and concise. As a second example, I can't think of any.
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Not to mention the writers are horrible at their jobs.
Very Harsh Mr.Gideon. ???
Have you read these books? Of course you have =)
There is not a single aspect of Shadowrun that doesn't require some degree of cross referencing or interpretation to understand. None of these rules are every clear or concise, and once you start adding in supplements, many of them become contradictory.
The rounding rule CRB pg48 is rather clear and concise. As a second example, I can't think of any.
Core pg 48 says the rule of thumb is to round up.
Pg 105 says time taken to teach a skill is rounded down, but number of skills is rounded up.
Pg 134 says the threshold is 1/2 Body rounded down.
Pg 372 says you award Karma for overall challege(sp) at 1/6 dice pool rounded down.
Pg 461 says you have 1/3 Body (rounded down) weapon mounts. Which... as I said initially about supplements making rules contradictory, Rigger 0.5 completely muddled how weapon mounts work anymore.
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Not to mention the writers are horrible at their jobs.
Very Harsh Mr.Gideon. ???
Have you read these books? Of course you have =)
There is not a single aspect of Shadowrun that doesn't require some degree of cross referencing or interpretation to understand. None of these rules are every clear or concise, and once you start adding in supplements, many of them become contradictory.
The rounding rule CRB pg48 is rather clear and concise. As a second example, I can't think of any.
Core pg 48 says the rule of thumb is to round up.
Pg 105 says time taken to teach a skill is rounded down, but number of skills is rounded up.
Pg 134 says the threshold is 1/2 Body rounded down.
Pg 372 says you award Karma for overall challege(sp) at 1/6 dice pool rounded down.
Pg 461 says you have 1/3 Body (rounded down) weapon mounts. Which... as I said initially about supplements making rules contradictory, Rigger 0.5 completely muddled how weapon mounts work anymore.
It's still clear and concise since it doesn't say to round up always but rather round up unless otherwise stated.
All you did was list rules that stated otherwise.
:)
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Not to mention the writers are horrible at their jobs.
Very Harsh Mr.Gideon. ???
Have you read these books? Of course you have =)
There is not a single aspect of Shadowrun that doesn't require some degree of cross referencing or interpretation to understand. None of these rules are every clear or concise, and once you start adding in supplements, many of them become contradictory.
Unless stated as optional it's my understanding that supplements don't contradict core rules,they superseded them .
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Not to mention the writers are horrible at their jobs.
Very Harsh Mr.Gideon. ???
Have you read these books? Of course you have =)
There is not a single aspect of Shadowrun that doesn't require some degree of cross referencing or interpretation to understand. None of these rules are every clear or concise, and once you start adding in supplements, many of them become contradictory.
Unless stated as optional it's my understanding that supplements don't contradict core rules,they superseded them .
My point being that most of the supplements in this edition have said something completely different from what the Core rules said. So once you've gotten used to playing the game, you have to completely change everything up. Rigger 0.5 completely altered how you modify vehicles and drones, totally changing what they had mounted for the past few years.
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Not to mention the writers are horrible at their jobs.
Very Harsh Mr.Gideon. ???
Have you read these books? Of course you have =)
There is not a single aspect of Shadowrun that doesn't require some degree of cross referencing or interpretation to understand. None of these rules are every clear or concise, and once you start adding in supplements, many of them become contradictory.
Unless stated as optional it's my understanding that supplements don't contradict core rules,they superseded them .
My point being that most of the supplements in this edition have said something completely different from what the Core rules said. So once you've gotten used to playing the game, you have to completely change everything up. Rigger 0.5 completely altered how you modify vehicles and drones, totally changing what they had mounted for the past few years.
Just like Arsenal did back in 4th.
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Isn't it the job of a supplement book to provide expanded rules i the first place?
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Isn't it the job of a supplement book to provide expanded rules in the first place?
Expanded, not evil mirror universe wearing a goatee. I'm waiting for a supplement to come out and say that rolling 1's is the best and rolling 10's gets you killed. Comparing the Core book to the supplements, it's like everything you know is wrong. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KThlYHfIVa8)
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Isn't it the job of a supplement book to provide expanded rules in the first place?
Expanded, not evil mirror universe wearing a goatee. I'm waiting for a supplement to come out and say that rolling 1's is the best and rolling 10's gets you killed. Comparing the Core book to the supplements, it's like everything you know is wrong. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KThlYHfIVa8)
I was going to make an argument about this.. but you know what? Why bother? If you're going to hate them from taking something that barely existed and turning into a fully fledged system, you're clearly just looking for any reason to hate what they do.
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Isn't it the job of a supplement book to provide expanded rules in the first place?
Expanded, not evil mirror universe wearing a goatee. I'm waiting for a supplement to come out and say that rolling 1's is the best and rolling 10's gets you killed. Comparing the Core book to the supplements, it's like everything you know is wrong. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KThlYHfIVa8)
I was going to make an argument about this.. but you know what? Why bother? If you're going to hate them from taking something that barely existed and turning into a fully fledged system, you're clearly just looking for any reason to hate what they do.
''
Thats pretty much what I was thinking. Yes this edition does have its problems many that could be cleared up with a proper errata but Marcus is just making stuff up now to try and make the game look worst then it is.
Lets face it the core book had no real vehicle/drone modification beyond adding rigger adaptation and body/3 weapon mounts . Its perfectly reasonable that more advanced rules will change whats in the core rules.
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Sorry to open this again, but the exact same discussion happened in the german forums as well and I just would like to verify I summarized Post#53 (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=23004.msg425363#msg425363) by Brackhaus correctly.
Using a Wireless smartgun, aiming thrice and attacking then gives
- +3D6 and +3 Precision (with the total capped by WILLPOWER/2)
- +1/+2 for the attack because this is the bonus listed in the gear section, no matter how many weapons used as there can be only one attack action
- +1 or +2 situational modifier (table page 176) because you use a wireless smartgun
I especially consider point 2 and point 3 to be the exact same modifier, others argue the wi-fi bonus is not a situational modifier and cannot be the same as otherwise lasersight would be listed in the table at 176 as well.
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Using a wireless smartgun and taking three Take Aim actions in a row would give you 1 and 2, but not 3. Not sure where they're getting 3 from, because the table on page 176 refers to the Take Aim action and is already covered by 1.
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[3] is the last entry of the situational modifiers table on page 176 while [2] is the wifi-bonus listed under the smartguns description on page 433.
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2 and 3 is the same bonus, at least as I read it. They are in different sections of the book, yes, but the entry on page 433 does not stack with the entry on page 176, it refers to the same bonus.
That's how I've always played it, anyway.
Again, at my table a character that takes three sequential Take Aim actions followed by a Fire Weapon action with a wireless enabled smartgun weapon would get +3 Accuracy and +3 dice pool from the take aim actions, in addition to the +1/+2 dice pool bonus and the +2 Accuracy bonus from the smartgun system.
It's also worth pointing out that if you use a multiple attack action and you're using multiple weapons, you cannot benefit from a smartgun, wireless or not.
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>>> It's also worth pointing out that if you use a multiple attack action and you're using multiple weapons, you cannot benefit from a smartgun, wireless or not.
This Ban is a remnant from former Editions.
I'm quite sure you won't find it in SR5 anymore
with a new and improved Dance
Medicineman
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Excellent, they finally got rid of that silly rule. Thanks for pointing that out, Medicineman.
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Case 1:
Lets say I have Agility 6, Pistols 6, Willpower 5 and a non-wireless smartgun and implanted smartlink connections.
My pool for shooting normally is 12 dice.
I can use "Take Aim" for 3 simple actions and get 1 die per simple action which means I would have 12 + 3 (aiming) = 15 dice.
Case 2:
Lets say I have Agility 6, Pistols 6, Willpower 5 and a wireless smartgun and implanted smartlink connections.
My pool for shooting normally is 14 dice.
I can use "Take Aim" for 1 simple action and get 1 die for the normal "Take Aim" action and +2 dice for a "Wireless Smartgun" 14 + 3 (aiming) = 17 dice.
The order of operations in these examples need adjusting, like so:
Case 1
Starting dicepool is 12 then +1 Accuracy or Dicepool per Take Aim action (max of 3 Take Aim actions possible)
Max possible dicepool is 15 for 3 Take Aim action before the attack
Case 2
Attribute 6 + Skill 6 + Smartgun 2 = dicepool of 14
then +1 Accuracy and +1 Dicepool per Take Aim action (max of 3 Take Aim actions possible)
Gives a total dicepool for 1 Take Aim action of 15
Max possible dicepool is 17 for 3 Take Aim action before the attack
The normal +1/+2 dicepool modifier for a Wireless Smartlink is added ONLY to the attack via the smartlink and NOT because of the Take Aim action.