Shadowrun
Shadowrun Missions Living Campaign => Living Campaign Discussion => Topic started by: falar on <11-16-15/1353:29>
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So, for getting higher availability gear, you need to follow the standard Availability Test rules with your contacts rolling Loyalty + Connection times two. Outside of actually acquiring gear during a session, this will generally be done as a downtime action. This means that you don't roll dice - you buy hits.
If you yourself are a face, you should be able to get up to 19 availability fairly easily. Your contacts, however, will have trouble exceeding 14 availability. Given that most Missions connections only have a Connection rating from 3-5, this means that they can really only provide upgrades if you're Loyalty 2+ with them. Loyalty maxes out at 6 (and many contacts have a maximum loyalty), which means that you're stuck at nothing greater than Availability 15, outside of a few options.
Do I have that right? Or am I misinterpreting the contacts roll? Is it (Loyalty + Connection) x 2 or ( Loyalty + Connection x 2)? One of them makes it far more possible to acquire high-level gear than the other.
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As a bit of a thought experiment - I'm a nova-hot decker and I want to grab a Fairlight Excalibur from my girl, Becky 99. I've done a fair number of runs for her, so I'm sitting at a pretty respectable 4 loyalty. With her connection rating of 4, that means she rolls 12 dice to try to find me my next deck. She will always fail though, since it has an availability of 16 and therefore buys 4 hits and she can only buy 3 hits.
To make it possible for her to find it, I need to find a way to get more on her availability check. The way to do that is to spread more cash around - 25% of the item's cost per dice you want to add. So I can get her to be able to find it if I spend another 100% more on it.
Oh, and she's a Fixer, so I have a 10% markup.
That'll be a cool 1,728,825 nuyen to get my new deck and it will take a month. Ouch, that hurts. Let's see if we run it through Simon Andrews instead.
He has 5 Connection and 3 Loyalty. I'm still going to end up paying an additional 75% of the cost of the deck to give him enough dice to find my deck. So I'm still out 1,523,012 nuyen.
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In my game we discovered that the 8 availability on most spell formulas made them close to impossible for the shaman in my game to get his paws on, if following the rules as I understood them (and while I don't have the book in front of my, I thought contacts rolled their Char+negotiate+connection?)
We are trialling a house rule of making it a modified form of extended test. All the usual extended test rules apply, except that each additional roll adds 25% to the price.
Basically on the first roll, you've checked your usual network, if they've got it and are willing to sell, you get it at the usual price. If they don't have it, or whoever has it is reluctant to sell, you can keep digging, and upping the price either trying to convince someone to sell, or your contacts are reaching farther into their networks so more people are adding a mark-up along the way). You can give up at any point if the price is getting too high for you, and can start again from scratch after twice the usual aquisistion period.
I need to do a bit more math to figure out if I need to add a fudge factor onto the availabilities to keep rare gear from being too easy to get.
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In my game we discovered that the 8 availability on most spell formulas made them close to impossible for the shaman in my game to get his paws on, if following the rules as I understood them (and while I don't have the book in front of my, I thought contacts rolled their Char+negotiate+connection?)
Contacts roll Charisma + Negotiate. Their Connection is a modifier on their social limit for that roll. It does not affect their dice pool.
In Missions, since you don't usually know the Charisma or Negotiate ratings for your contacts, you use Loyalty + Connection x 2. Since this is expressed in English, it's unclear if it means (Loyalty + Connection) x 2 or (Loyalty + Connection x 2). Or, for a 3/5 contact, if it's 16 or 13 that they roll (respectively).
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It's Connection x 2 + Loyalty.
Also remember that you can spend an extra 25% of item value to gain an extra dice on your availability check.
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Also remember that you can spend an extra 25% of item value to gain an extra dice on your availability check.
Yeah, I covered that in my second post. It basically makes already expensive things unattainably expensive. Which I don't think is a Missions design goal. I also don't think it's a Missions design goal that you should have to pay 185% to 210% markup on the most commonly used bullets (APDS).
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Well a few more things to consider. The Availability test is opposed, thus it could be argued that powers like Authoritative Tone apply, as may things like Tailored Pheromones as it's reasonable to assume much of this is being done face-to-face.
Honestly even for Missions getting to 12 dice on an Availability check isn't thaaat difficult for a Face. If you look at the examples from Run Faster, most gear focused contacts have at least 4 Connection giving them 8 + Loyalty dice from the start.
As for insanely expensive things... Foci and 'ware can be upgraded while RCCs and Cyberdecks are having upgrade rules looked into. Outside of those, you're looking at fragging big guns, top of the line armor and premium ammo, all of them should perhaps be extremely hard to get for simple balance reasons.
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As far as your first post goes and if you are the "face" doing all the legwork and talking to the right people, you ARE the contact your using to get the gear. i have a friend who spent the downtime to find his own milspec heavy armor and helmet. basically the rule for it is that however long the time it would take the fixer/gear person/talismonger etc to get you the gear, you are marking off that amount of time off of your calendar and you cant do anything else during that time.
And it is (Connection x2) + loyalty and any extra dice you need to buy is 25% markup of the cost.
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As for insanely expensive things... Foci and 'ware can be upgraded while RCCs and Cyberdecks are having upgrade rules looked into. Outside of those, you're looking at fragging big guns, top of the line armor and premium ammo, all of them should perhaps be extremely hard to get for simple balance reasons.
There's plenty of 'ware that you might have saved a spot in your character for that you're not upgrading. For instance - Pain Editor for your friendly neighborhood Street Sam or Neocortical and Limbic Soft Nanoware systems for your Decker or Rigger. Or, heck, an Adapsin Geneware treatment, which is basically sitting out there saying, "Pick me!" before you upgrade or otherwise change your cyberware.
And, even if you are upgrading, you still have to make the Availability test to get it, presumably. So if you're going from your Centaur Liminal Body to an Alphaware Centaur Liminal Body, you'd still need to hit an availability of 14 for that upgrade. Heaven forfend if you want to upgrade to Betaware, which means you need 16 Availability. And to replace/upgrade the Armor Enhancements you already had would be now an availability of 17-19.
I'm pretty sure that the +25% option isn't meant to be required to be used to advance gear-dependent characters. In normal play, you would be rolling something like Charisma 4-8 for your contact, plus a Negotiation of 7-10, which would pretty easily get you gear up to a 19 availability.
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In missions anything with an availability up to 15 should be attainable by any starting contact with a connection rating of 5 and a loyalty of 2. Since you are buying hits and the gear is buying hits you still end up with a tie which is good enough to get the item at list price it just takes longer to acquire (pp 418.) That generally shouldn't be a problem except with the most expensive items.
Gear with a rating up to 19 is a little harder to get and probably a little more expensive unless you have a good Face (or are a good Face.) But a contact with a connection of 5 and a loyalty of 4 (stock contact that you have done a few favors for) plus a couple extra dice (+50% cost) will still get you those items too.
I do agree, however, that contacts in Missions could use some tweaking. I also wouldn't mind seeing them change the cost modifier for extra dice from +25% to +10% as well.
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I do agree, however, that contacts in Missions could use some tweaking. I also wouldn't mind seeing them change the cost modifier for extra dice from +25% to +10% as well.
I was thinking something like:
- Swag contacts automatically get Connection/2 (round up) hits to acquire gear. Anything that can be obtained with the automatic hits counts as succeeding, even if it ties.
- If more hits are required, roll Connectionx2 to add to their base.
- Swag contacts that are for specific gear categories automatically get one additional hit when acquiring anything in their purview.
This means that a Connection 4 fixer could get you anything up to Availability 19 and a Connection 5 fixer can get you anything up to Availability 23.
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Connection 5 getting availability 23 gear makes it too easy in my book. But YMMV.
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Considering that barely touches good cyber/bioware, I think it's okay. It still wouldn't get me Betaware Wired Reflexes 3 or Betaware Mscle Replacement 4 or even an Alphaware Suprathyroid Gland.
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Considering that barely touches good cyber/bioware, I think it's okay. It still wouldn't get me Betaware Wired Reflexes 3 or Betaware Mscle Replacement 4 or even an Alphaware Suprathyroid Gland.
Well IMHO considering Betaware is the best quality stuff available on the open market (Deltaware isn't the open market) it should be somewhat difficult to get. And an Alphaware Suprathyroid Gland is 22R so you could get one under this scenario.
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I do agree, however, that contacts in Missions could use some tweaking. I also wouldn't mind seeing them change the cost modifier for extra dice from +25% to +10% as well.
god this would be nice, and i would have a ton of extra $$ on my rigger, but i highly doubt a drop of that much will be implemented. I doubt a drop of anything will be implemented, but we can pray.
Connection 5 getting availability 23 gear makes it too easy in my book. But YMMV.
agreed, dont know how you would work it but a connection 6 contact should be the only type of contact that can get you stuff 20+
And i love the idea of having a contact be able to get you anything but if it falls under their purview they get one automatic bonus success. that sounds like something that should be added somehow.
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...just had a major discussion on this topic with our group. Have a Physad who was looking to upgrade her weapon focus after a mission into a BGC 4 "hotspot" where we ran into a couple mist form vampires against whom she was totally useless (fortunately we all made it out however nearly lost one character). Still expensive but no where near as bad as I feared, as the 20 availability applied to the reagents needed to improve the weapon's force not the cost of the actual increase from 4 - 5 itself.
Still a little in the dark how the "buying hits" actually relates to the availability test.
In making up a new character, (a demolitions expert), decided it would probably be good to take the Black Market Pipeline quality for her arms/explosives dealer contact so she'd have a better chance to get the "good stuff" with as little issue as possible.
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We have addressed this in the new FAQ ... just waiting on approval from CGL, and will be released with the Hard Targets update.
Reputation will modify your rolls when attempting to get new gear.
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Reputation will modify your rolls when attempting to get new gear.
Oooh! Nice!
What is reputation? Some crazy new amalgam of Street Cred, Public Awareness and Notoriety?
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Hehe, yeah, now we just need actual mechanics for how reputation is supposed to be calculated :)
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Reputation will modify your rolls when attempting to get new gear.
Oooh! Nice!
What is reputation? Some crazy new amalgam of Street Cred, Public Awareness and Notoriety?
I hesitate to say too much since we are still waiting on approval for it, but no nothing so new as that ... just that all three aspects play a roll ... either as a dice pool, thresh hold, or limit modifier
mostly because we wanted to make reputation more applicable and something that players would care about more
Hehe, yeah, now we just need actual mechanics for how reputation is supposed to be calculated :)
Street Cred is the only thing that straight calculates ... see page 372 of the core rule book, even though qualities can play apart Notoriety and Public Awareness are awarded.
For home games this would have to be determined by GM, in Mission games we publish it.
Would like to have guidelines for this? Or was there something else you were referring to?
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This sounds awesome! I can't wait to see what we get.
More of an impact for all three of those things is great. It may solve all of my availability questions, even in my home games. Even if it doesn't get approved, I'd like to see the idea if you're able to send it my way unofficially.
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By "mechanics" I meant more how the three interact with each other.
Street Cred is listed in the book both as increasing dice pools (p. 140) or social limit (p. 368) depending on where you look, for one. Street Cred is calculated as a known quantity and as a missions reward, true, but it can rack up some significant bonuses somewhat easily which seems at odds with Missions in general. For example, if you earn one street cred and 5 Karma per mission, that's +9 dice pool and/or social limit after just six missions. Guidelines on when Street Cred applies would also be good, as not everyone is going to know you're a stone cold professional, after all.
Notoriety is calculated manually but only for qualities in the core book and not any of the expanded (and Missions Legal) rules. This should be expanded upon. Notoriety also does not offset Street Cred in any way currently, so rules for that would be good. Some NPCs might even view Notoriety as a plus, which could be an interesting twist on the Cold Hearted Bastard rules re karma rewards, and/or could be used to influence intimidation rolls for example. Right now, however, it doesn't have much of a use.
Public Awareness is in the same boat as Notoriety. What exactly does it mean if your Public Awareness is 5? Does NPCs recognize you? Does it influence Street Cred and/or Notoriety, or vice versa?
In short, reputation is one of those very gray areas that would be difficult to effectively use in Missions because there's very little common ground for disparate GMs to use, and some outstanding rules clarifications that are needed.
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In short, reputation is one of those very gray areas that would be difficult to effectively use in Missions because there's very little common ground for disparate GMs to use, and some outstanding rules clarifications that are needed.
Eh. A number of the 'runs have very set, "If the 'runners did X, give them +1 Street Cred. If they did Y, give them +1 Notoriety. If they did Z by doing A, give them +1 Public Awareness" in the awards. I would expect this to be combined with more of that format in the future.
For instance, in SRM 05-04: Liberation:
+1 Street Cred if the players rescue X from Y
+1 Notoriety for giving the Z to A
Or in Boundless Mercy: Recon
+1 Street Cred if the players defeat X in a fight
+1 Public Awareness if the team does Y with someone other than Z
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Indeed. But can you tell me what Notoriety and Public Awareness does in Missions? Cause I certainly can't, based on what the core rulebook tells me anyway.
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Indeed. But can you tell me what Notoriety and Public Awareness does in Missions? Cause I certainly can't, based on what the core rulebook tells me anyway.
It's used to determine how easy it is to get gear.
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Uh, how?
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Uh, how?
Sorry, you missed my dry wit in referring to the upcoming rules that may be released. :)
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Haha, yeah, I'm terrible at picking up on sarcasm in text ;)
My point was mostly to Banshee, just for clarification, as an elaboration to his question on what I think was unclear/could use some guidelines.
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sorry guys best i can do is give you a rough outline until CGL approves it
Street Cred - improves social limit if known*, reduces availability
Notoriety - reduces social limits (except intimidation) if known*, increases limit for intimidation
Public Awareness - determines if your known
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Cool, Banshee, that's a good start. Can you elaborate on how Public Awareness would determine if you are known or not? With it being an integer that increases the more you're known it wouldn't do as a Threshold; I've been using it as a dice pool modifier to an NPCs memory or appropriate knowledge skill test to determine if any given person knows about the PC.
If not available at the moment, that'd definitely be something that needs to be added eventually.
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i developed a chart that you cross reference based on whether it is a public citizen or a security/corporate official versus your public awareness to determine the threshold of the knowledge check to determine if you're known to them
basic example ... a Mr Johnson who's job is to know who's who in the shadows has a good chance of knowing you but the guy behind the counter at the local Stuffer Shack doesn't
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i developed a chart that you cross reference based on whether it is a public citizen or a security/corporate official versus your public awareness to determine the threshold of the knowledge check to determine if you're known to them
basic example ... a Mr Johnson who's job is to know who's who in the shadows has a good chance of knowing you but the guy behind the counter at the local Stuffer Shack doesn't
This sounds beautiful. I love it.
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Nice! Sounds good, Banshee, thanks!
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Gotta add this sounds really awesome. Nice to see more of the systems being integrated into Missions play.
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looking forward to seeing the new rules out!
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i developed a chart that you cross reference based on whether it is a public citizen or a security/corporate official versus your public awareness to determine the threshold of the knowledge check to determine if you're known to them
basic example ... a Mr Johnson who's job is to know who's who in the shadows has a good chance of knowing you but the guy behind the counter at the local Stuffer Shack doesn't
I assumed the "if known" was more simplistic.
Are they a Contact? Then Yes
Are they a Stranger? Then No
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So, for getting higher availability gear, you need to follow the standard Availability Test rules with your contacts rolling Loyalty + Connection times two. Outside of actually acquiring gear during a session, this will generally be done as a downtime action. This means that you don't roll dice - you buy hits.
If you yourself are a face, you should be able to get up to 19 availability fairly easily. Your contacts, however, will have trouble exceeding 14 availability. Given that most Missions connections only have a Connection rating from 3-5, this means that they can really only provide upgrades if you're Loyalty 2+ with them. Loyalty maxes out at 6 (and many contacts have a maximum loyalty), which means that you're stuck at nothing greater than Availability 15, outside of a few options.
And this is why you buy a Fixer with your own Karma at Chargen who is 6C/1L or 5C/2L giving you 13/12 dice right off the bat.
Then use your Face to buy anything higher than 15, which really shouldn't be much with the small earnings from Missions.
I mean, how can you afford Wired-3-Beta anyway ??
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Then use your Face to buy anything higher than 15, which really shouldn't be much with the small earnings from Missions.
How do you get a personal companion in Missions to be your Face? I have a Rigger and have never 'run with the same 'runners twice.
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How do you get a personal companion in Missions to be your Face? I have a Rigger and have never 'run with the same 'runners twice.
Ah, I see. I was thinking you had a group you played with that contained a Face.
It is a bit harder if you don't have one in the group that you can work with to go gear hunting for you.
Mechanically, Faces doing their own gear hunting instead of using contacts have to take time off their calendar, which in turn means rent is due sooner for your Lifestyle. So for the cost of some time at your Lifestyle, they can find the item for you.
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So, you're saying that you solve the problem by always having another Player Character do the work for you? Basically, treating them as a contact?
In my mind, that's not how Missions should assume you have to work to get your gear. You should be able to use your contacts to get a hold of the gear that you need. Otherwise, what's the point of a hardware supplier or a cyberware supplier or a fence if they can only get you the crap gear and you need to have a Player Character of a certain archetype to get you the gear you want?
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No.
Myself I always use my own Contacts and I have a couple that can hit the 12/13 Dice Pool needed to buy up to Availability 15 with ease.
So does everyone else in the group.
But, I'm saying if you want to get better stuff than that, then you could use the group's face in the method I described above.
Its not about treating them as a contact, its about letting them do the job they would already be doing in a non-Missions campaign.
Since I am my group's Face, I have offered to help out if needed & 1 character was thinking about it but ended up using a different weapon instead.
You can use the method previously mentioned in the thread where you are buying some extra hits for a higher price.
Gear is limited to Avail-12 at Chargen.
A basic contact limited to just the starting 7 point cap can get you up to 15 easily.
Availability 16+ gear should be hard to get.
Missions isn't designed to be a high powered jet set around the world & use all the best gear of government/corporate specops groups.
If you want stuff with 20 availability then design the character to be more than some random guy doing some Shadowrunning.
Take the Positive Qualities that let you get access to Higher Gear or Better Contacts at Chargen.
Or, expect to pay some more as already stated.
If you use a basic 5/2 Fixer, 12dp, & then buy them up to 20 they can get you anything up to 23 at double the time & 3x the price.
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I refuse to believe the Missions designers intentions was that characters would not have access to high-availability gear without paying triple-cost. If that was the case, the nuyen rewards would need be roughly triple to give any gear-oriented characters a hope of progression.
Notably, this is mainly only an issue if you compare primarily gear-progression characters (cybersams, deckers, riggers) with primarily karma-progression characters (adepts, mages, aspected magicians, technomancers, mystic adepts). With the rewards from two Missions-legal runs, a karma-progression character can easily submerge or initiate, which provides them a large, tangible character progression. While I don't think that gear-progression needs to be as close, it needs to be close enough that, over the course of 10 Missions-legal runs, a gear-progression character progresses about as much as a karma-progression character.
Note that this is not to say that primarily gear-or-karma-progression archetypes do not benefit from the other resource - they just generally benefit less. A rigger can get an additional die in one of his skills for 14 karma. A mage can get the ability to quicken all of their spells and quicken one spell for 14 karma. A street sam can get a significant implant (like a Pain Editor) for 50,000 nuyen. An adept can get a dice or two more with a melee weapon.
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As stated previously, Missions is not a "high level" campaign.
Its designed to keep things at a low level intentionally.
You don't get big cash rewards often & you don't get to go buy lots of flashy hi-availability Deltaware.
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I also don't think it's a Missions design goal that you should have to pay 185% to 210% markup on the most commonly used bullets (APDS).
Why are you paying so much for something that is available at Chargen?
And why would you think that Military Grade, illegal, ammo is the "most common".
Regular Ammo, it the cheapest, & would be the most common.
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As stated previously, Missions is not a "high level" campaign.
Its designed to keep things at a low level intentionally.
Where is this stated?
You don't get big cash rewards often & you don't get to go buy lots of flashy hi-availability Deltaware.
I'm not talking about high-availability deltaware. I'm talking about meaningful progression.
One of the first things on a CyberSam's shopping list after character creation is usually a Pain Editor. Not always, but usually. It's probably equivalent to the mage's first initiation for jump in power. Let's see how this breaks down:
- First run - 10,000 nuyen and 5 karma. Neither the mage nor the Sam can do much but convert to 10 karma and 20,000 nuyen.
- Second run - 10,000 nuyen and 5 karma. The mage can now initiate and gain Quickening and quicken two spells, which is a huge, huge, huge improvement to them as a character. The street sam is sitting at 40,000 nuyen.
- Third run - 10,000 nuyen and 5 karma. The mage is now sitting at around 10 karma. They can gain two more spells, which widens out their options significantly. The street sam can now barely afford the Pain Editor - but wait, he really only has a 5 Connection / 3 Loyalty Martin Tate who can get this. That gets him ... any gear up to 15? So he needs to spend an additional 75% to get the Pain Editor - meaning he has to get 84,000 nuyen.
- Fourth run - 10,000 nuyen and 5 karma - The mage can grab a few more spells or start saving up for his next initiation. The street sam now has around 80,000 nuyen, but he'll need more because we're buying hits.
- Fifth run - 10,000 nuyen and 5 karma. - The mage can easily initiate again, gaining another powerful metamagic. The street sam can finally get his first piece of meaningful advancement.
I don't think that's right. I also don't think a Pain Editor is a drek-hot piece of gear that no Missions-legal character should ever be expected to get. It's solidly on the low end of things.
I also don't think it's a Missions design goal that you should have to pay 185% to 210% markup on the most commonly used bullets (APDS).
Why are you paying so much for something that is available at Chargen?
Because you have a Loyalty 2, Connection 3 Sid Gambetti as your main contact. Because he's a fixer, that's a 10% markup. Because you need to up his dice pool by four, that's +100%.
And why would you think that Military Grade, illegal, ammo is the "most common".
Regular Ammo, it the cheapest, & would be the most common.
Because you're a Shadowrunner. You don't get called out of bed to handle normal ammo problems. You get hired because there's a Force 8 spirit that you need to contend with and all you have is an assault rifle and a grenade launcher. You better be packing APDS or you ain't a real Sam.
Also - are you intentionally missing my main point? Karma-progression characters do not have it harder to advance. Only gear-progression characters have it harder. To even the field, you'd need to half or third the karma rewards. And I'm pretty sure that's not the Missions design goal.
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As stated previously, Missions is not a "high level" campaign.
Its designed to keep things at a low level intentionally.
Where is this stated?
it is not explicitly stated anywhere but it is true, standard CMP adn SRM Missions are kept to down to the point where beginning characters can be effective and designed to adjust up if the table allows it.
Prime Missions are built for "high level" play.
Regardless however, you are right karma based advancement is easier to achieve but without adjust mission payouts to what would be "unrealistic" levels there is not much we can do about it and still remain within the framework of the core rules.
somethings we have in place or coming with the next version of the MIssion guidelines is ...
- working for the man/working for the people - let's you pursue money over karma or vice versa
- upgrade options - let's you trade in existing gear towards the cost of near gear, not perfect but works better than selling and then buying new
- new reputation use - allows for more "advanced" characters to obtain higher availability gear with having to spend extra resources just so your contacts can get thier dice pool high enough
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Regardless however, you are right karma based advancement is easier to achieve but without adjust mission payouts to what would be "unrealistic" levels there is not much we can do about it and still remain within the framework of the core rules.
I'm not so sure about this. Let's take a look at Critic's Choice:
- Maximum Karma is 6
- Maximum nuyen is 8500
Let's look at the guidelines that apply (using SR5 Core p372):
- Base - 3000 nuyen
- Highest Opposing Dice Pool - 19 from Neil's Archery - +4 Modifier
- Runners outnumbered 3 to 1 - This will occur if you have 4 or fewer runners or add the Hellhounds and have 6 or fewer runners - +1 Modifier
- Runners faced a pack of at least six critters - This will occur if you add the Hellhounds - +1 Modifier
This means, at a minimum, they should be getting 12,000 nuyen, with a swing of up to 18,000 nuyen. On the karma side, they should be getting a solid 7 karma (2 for survival, 2 for completing objectives, 3 for Overall Adventure Challenge from Neil's archery pool).
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Regardless however, you are right karma based advancement is easier to achieve but without adjust mission payouts to what would be "unrealistic" levels there is not much we can do about it and still remain within the framework of the core rules.
I'm not so sure about this. Let's take a look at Critic's Choice:
- Maximum Karma is 6
- Maximum nuyen is 8500
Let's look at the guidelines that apply (using SR5 Core p372):
- Base - 3000 nuyen
- Highest Opposing Dice Pool - 19 from Neil's Archery - +4 Modifier
- Runners outnumbered 3 to 1 - This will occur if you have 4 or fewer runners or add the Hellhounds and have 6 or fewer runners - +1 Modifier
- Runners faced a pack of at least six critters - This will occur if you add the Hellhounds - +1 Modifier
This means, at a minimum, they should be getting 12,000 nuyen, with a swing of up to 18,000 nuyen. On the karma side, they should be getting a solid 7 karma (2 for survival, 2 for completing objectives, 3 for Overall Adventure Challenge from Neil's archery pool).
your right in regards to that particular mission (and there are others that swing the other way), but I was talking in general mission terms you should expect 10-15,000 base pay and 6-8 karma
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<znip> in general mission terms you should expect 10-15,000 base pay and 6-8 karma
Oh?
[spoiler=Maximum karma and nuyen rewards for season 5 and 6 missions:]
SRM05-01: 6 karma, 16,000¥
SRM05-02: 6 karma, 10,000¥
SRM05-03: 6 karma, 7,500¥ (incorrectly lists that up to 3 additional karma may be earned through roleplaying, which has been errata'd as far as I know)
SRM05-04: 7 karma, 14,000¥
SRM05-05: 7 karma, 18,000¥
SRM05-06: 7 karma, 14,000¥
SRM06-01: 6 karma, 16,000¥, single beta grade implant at standard grade price[/spoiler]
Average is 6.43 karma and 13,643¥, and that's with absolute maximum rewards for both, i.e. hitting all negotiation tests and achieving all objectives in the most optimum way from a reward perspective.
I'm not sure I would use the terms "expect" and "base" with the above...
When I get back from lunch I'll do a comparison using the SR5 guidelines to see how that matches up.
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<znip> in general mission terms you should expect 10-15,000 base pay and 6-8 karma
Oh?
[spoiler=Maximum karma and nuyen rewards for season 5 and 6 missions:]
SRM05-01: 6 karma, 16,000¥
SRM05-02: 6 karma, 10,000¥
SRM05-03: 6 karma, 7,500¥ (incorrectly lists that up to 3 additional karma may be earned through roleplaying, which has been errata'd as far as I know)
SRM05-04: 7 karma, 14,000¥
SRM05-05: 7 karma, 18,000¥
SRM05-06: 7 karma, 14,000¥
SRM06-01: 6 karma, 16,000¥, single beta grade implant at standard grade price[/spoiler]
Average is 6.43 karma and 13,643¥, and that's with absolute maximum rewards for both, i.e. hitting all negotiation tests and achieving all objectives in the most optimum way from a reward perspective.
I'm not sure I would use the terms "expect" and "base" with the above...
When I get back from lunch I'll do a comparison using the SR5 guidelines to see how that matches up.
I didn't have statistical data available to provide any specifics, but I can speak to what the mission director and myself have talked about as to what current design expectations are for missions
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If nothing else, gear-progression characters can't grow as quickly as karma-progression characters. For some characters, this is much more of an issue than with others. There are a couple of things that can be done without adjusting run reward, which, while they are on the low side, aren't too far off from the recommended guidelines for later missions. Sprawl Wilds is Missions-Legal and is an utter crapshoot for cash. London Falling seems to be at about the base payouts (10,000 nuyen/5-6 karma). However ... you face Red Samurai with Hardened Armor 23 in the end ... which I think should push you up to somewhere around 21k base.
That said, there are decent ideas -
- Working for the Man/Working for the People - this is the most solid option. The numbers just need to adjust to something like 5000 nuyen to 1 karma. This would simultaneously cut down how fast karma-progression characters can progress, as well as upping the rate at which gear-progression characters can progress.
- Upgrading Gear - this is okay, for implants and foci, but it still falls far short for Deckers and Riggers who have much more invested in non-implant options. A decker needs a ton of nuyen to upgrade his deck and there is no upgrade option for him.
- Reputation Availability - this is an important thing. It does not change the base inequalities between cash and karma though. It helps gear-based progression characters because it will keep the prices equivalent to the books instead of tacking on fees.
Honestly, the biggest thing is that non-magical progression is way more expensive than magical progression. Your first three initiations are accessible in 2-3 runs apiece and that's a HUGE advantage. If skills/attributes cost less to raise or 'ware was cheaper, this wouldn't be as much of a problem. If a character could go from Skill 6 to Skill 9 in 4-5 runs, it wouldn't be so stark of a difference.
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Good afternoon everyone!
After reviewing this thread, I’ll post my thoughts on this. Please note this topic was brought up when Bull was the developer as well and he addressed it quite well.
I know I rarely visit the forums, mainly because I’ve been focusing on getting Season 6 out the door while preparing Season 7 and the 2016 CMPs. As any of the authors will tell you, it is quite a time consuming process. On top of that, there are other duties I perform in relation to the CDT and SRMs. Note Season 8 and 2017 CMPs are also assigned and in the writing processes.
No where is it explicitly stated that Missions are meant for low-level play. However, they are not meant as high level play either (hence the Prime Missions). Before I get too far, Prime Mission 01 was already ran at Origins and GenCon last year as well as at regional conventions. PM-02 will be ran at Origins and GenCon this year. PM-03 through 10 have already been assigned to authors and are in the writing process. These Missions have a higher payout and more karma…but you have to work harder to get them.
With all that said, the SRM FAQ notes average karma is 6-8 and payouts are 10-12K nuyen. That cannot be taken as “You will always get this amount.” Some end up higher, some end up lower.
The intent of each Shadowrun Mission is to allow players an opportunity to play their characters and have fun, whether they have 0 TKE or 350 TKE. Due to the nature of conventions, we see both at the same table with a smattering in between. Therefore, we need as fair a system as possible to try to strike a balance. It’s no fun sitting at a table with a low TKE character while the high TKE character takes over the action (note: this occurs frequently and has as much to do with how one plays their character as the amount of TKE). If I start having the authors adjust for the possibility of high TKE characters, then low TKE characters will not have fun…hence the leeway we provide Agents who run them to fit the table. Some players may find they received more karma because Pushing the Envelopes or greater challenges were used. Some may find they received less because the GM didn’t throw everything at them because the team was not able to face all the challenges.
We all know Shadowrun has a power curve and that power curve can get crazy on the high end, whether it’s gear, karma, or both. There are methods in the FAQ to earn more karma or nuyen. There are methods to upgrade cyberware. Once street dates are announced, there will be methods to upgrade cyberdecks and use Reputation to get better gear.
I do not intend to make high availability gear easy to get, whether it’s magical or technological…though it will be easier.
Also note, there was a distinction made between karma progression and gear progression characters. All characters earn and use karma and nuyen to upgrade…they just use it for different purposes. A street sam/hacker/rigger wants more nuyen to improve (or acquire) a specific piece of equipment, hence the need (sometimes extreme need). A magician (for example) needs karma AND nuyen to bond and buy a focus. If we increase the nuyen or karma significantly, there will still be a perceived discrepancy in progression.
Note: I am not going to get into a discussion concerning the accuracy or inaccuracy of this post as I will not have the time to give this or other topics adequate attention on the forums. I am hard at work trying to provide y'all quality material which you may use to have fun (either in a Missions legal campaign or a no holds barred home game).
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Note: I am not going to get into a discussion concerning the accuracy or inaccuracy of this post as I will not have the time to give this or other topics adequate attention on the forums. I am hard at work trying to provide y'all quality material which you may use to have fun (either in a Missions legal campaign or a no holds barred home game).
This was a super exciting post, by the way. I really loved hearing about the writing for Season 6 and Season 7 and the 2016 & 2017 CMPs.
It's a very good point about needing to work for the 0 TKE and the 350 TKE 'runner and that's not something that I would ever disagree with. It's a pain in the butt to manage a lot of things across widely differing levels of power. It's one of the reasons I would probably not want to be a CDT Agent, although I've thought about it sometimes.
That said (and I fully realize this won't be read), my desire is that a 100 TKE Decker has had as much fun and feels that his character has evolved as much as a 100 TKE Mage. I do not believe that to be the case. There have been a lot of moves in the right direction, but I do not believe this to be true at this time and I do not believe that the availability change will make that a reality. The ability to upgrade non-implant gear may help.
I've been in several games where all the available Pushing the Envelope options were used and the payout was not increased. I've also never seen reference to "if you use a Pushing the Envelope option, increase the payout" anywhere, even though it makes sense. It might be advisable to add that to the books - something like, "For each Pushing the Envelope option you use, increase karma payouts by 1 and increase cash payouts by 2000 nuyen per 'runner."
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Never make assumptions it won't be read :) Even though I may not respond, members of the SRM FAQ committee do read these posts and bring up valid points during our calls.
Fair points!
You are always welcome to come to the other side of the screen as an Agent. We are always looking for more!
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You are always welcome to come to the other side of the screen as an Agent. We are always looking for more!
Like I said, I've considered and will consider it.
The time requirement to actually contribute is a bit higher than I can squeeze without cutting into the game I run (twice monthly and heavily houseruled), the game I play (once monthly), and my other loved hobby - board gaming, which is a one-two times a week deal. However, if Jimmy "Funkmaster G" Gaylord gets the MadTown Shadowrun Missions Circle up and going, I've thought about doing a monthly or bimonthly run as part of it at my FLGS.
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Where is this stated?
One of the first things on a CyberSam's shopping list after character creation is usually a Pain Editor. Not always, but usually. It's probably equivalent to the mage's first initiation for jump in power. Let's see how this breaks down:
The street sam can now barely afford the Pain Editor - but wait, he really only has a 5 Connection / 3 Loyalty Martin Tate who can get this. That gets him ... any gear up to 15? So he needs to spend an additional 75% to get the Pain Editor - meaning he has to get 84,000 nuyen.[/li]
Because you have a Loyalty 2, Connection 3 Sid Gambetti as your main contact. Because he's a fixer, that's a 10% markup. Because you need to up his dice pool by four, that's +100%.
Because you're a Shadowrunner. You don't get called out of bed to handle normal ammo problems. You get hired because there's a Force 8 spirit that you need to contend with and all you have is an assault rifle and a grenade launcher. You better be packing APDS or you ain't a real Sam.
Also - are you intentionally missing my main point? Karma-progression characters do not have it harder to advance. Only gear-progression characters have it harder. To even the field, you'd need to half or third the karma rewards. And I'm pretty sure that's not the Missions design goal. [/quote]
Belated response, but here goes.
1. I think its been covered by others. Its not directly stated. But it IS a goal when trying to deal w/ the fact that at any given game you could be mixing a 0K New Gen character with a 135-Earned Karma character with 18 Runs under their belt.
2. I’m not sure that Pain Editor is a Must Have for anyone after Chargen. Personally, I buy Damage Comp 3A or 4 at Chargen & don’t bother with Pain Editor. But that is me.
2. “Friends in high places” solves any Connection level uses for 8 Karma at Chargen & has loads of other benefits as well. (Or use a Face w/ larger dice pool, I know, you don’t have that option, but many do)
3. Why is Sid Gambetti your main contact? Get a fixer are Chargen with 6/1
(That said, I really do think the 25% rule is broken. These aren’t “Hits” they are “Dice”, so to me 5%/10% would have been a MUCH better rule.)
4. If the Samurai is the one dealing w/ a Force-8 Spirit, instead of the Awakened Team Member. Something has gone wrong. (Given APDS & Grenade Launchers are illegal, I see a prison cell in this Samurai’s future. Not saying I wouldn’t have one. I’d just be damned if that was my only option like you say.)
5. If I was missing your main point its only because your kind of mixing points all through your discussion & using an examples tailored just to this edge case. Why is it all Karma v/s Cash in those examples? Since when do Samurai have no need for Karma to increase skills & Attributes?
We all know Quickening is broken if you don’t balance out the issue of having a permanent spell on you ALL THE TIME in civilized society.
What happens if the mage is looking into Power Focuses that are expensive in both Cash & Karma?
Or wants to not be a glowing beacon on the astral & go the Sustained Focus route?
Or actually desires a better lifestyle, car, reagents while still wanting too boost skills?
Or an Adept looking for a good Weapon Focus?
All these will chew up Cash AND Karma.
To me it seems like this whole example is kind of specialized worst case situation.
A. The Sam wants an 18F, fairly expensive piece of gear as a Missions Character.
B. The Sam does not have a high connection Fixer.
C. The Sam does not have a regular Face to assist with gear.
D. The Comparison to Mages involves Quickening instead of any of the multitude of other options that are better balanced.
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I've been in several games where all the available Pushing the Envelope options were used and the payout was not increased. I've also never seen reference to "if you use a Pushing the Envelope option, increase the payout" anywhere, even though it makes sense. It might be advisable to add that to the books - something like, "For each Pushing the Envelope option you use, increase karma payouts by 1 and increase cash payouts by 2000 nuyen per 'runner."
Really good point, I totally agree.
That said.
I can see where the PtE options get used because the game had 8 players instead of 4-5.
So they needed it to challenge them based on #'s.
So to me that doesn't mean more cash "each". Because the more cash is used up in the extra 3-4 payouts.
Now if its a 3-man run of guys with 250K each who are so badass the GM pulls out those options because those 3 can take it? Then yeah, Increased reward is fully due IMO.
I'd say the best option in these cases is to have an extra "something" built into the PtE event.
A Certified credstick on an NPC that you can find. A sweet weapon/deck/drone, etc etc to salvage. Something like that.
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wait... Are we supposed to increase payouts with the Pushing the Envelope?!
I assumed not due to the whole 'Each mission is balanced for rewards between GM's' Thing...
There's no info for how to increase the payout, so increasing it based off our own subjective GM opinions could easily unbalance a player or team.
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in Missions, Pushing the Envelope scenes are usually not "Here's how to make this tougher"*. Instead, they're often extra "mini-Scenes" that can be added in to make the game longer, provide a little extra value for the adventure, and give the players more interaction and more to do. They are designed to be 100% optional for the GM and do not effect the plot or the rewards, since not every table will use them.
All rewards and all plot/story points need to be available to every player going through an adventure, so it's not fair to give out anything extra because your table got to do one or two, and another table did not.
As a note, these are largely present for two reasons:
1) At a convention, you paid for a 4 hour game. Sometimes, groups will figure things out, find ways to skip stuff, etc, and blow through the scenario far faster than intended. As such, these give the GM a way to stretch the adventure out a bit if he realizes the adventure is moving too quickly.
2) Home play. These give a GM who is unfettered by a time limit a way to do more with the adventure. Letting the players take their time and adding in multiple PtE scenes means you can usually easily stretch a Mission into a 2 night game (Or a 6+ hour long game, depending on how you play).
*Note: This was the intention when I was developer, anyways. However, since PtE scenes in non-Missions modules are usually "How to make this harder" information, some writers still would add those in. And Ray and the current Missions team may change up how PtE is used now, I'm not certain. This was just my own take on it and my own intentions.
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Thanks for clearing that up!
My two cents: High availability gear is supposed to be expensive. But what about face characters who make their characters built around developing connections and powerful face-y skills... Should they get a discount? Sure! So the prices reflect wholesale while the availability test simply reflects the market value difference.
The issue isn't really the lack of karma or nuyen, its the lack of rules for upgrading items to their higher availability versions, which, from what I understand, will hopefully be explained soon in an upcoming Missions FAQ update.
It's also the lack of info on how to build and use personal contacts for Missions. Spelling it out more would help players understand why they need that rating 6 fixer and what type of contacts they actually should have for their character that isn't just a fixer. (e.g. Are we supposed to build them using the Contacts rules in core, limited to missions legal qualities, or.. should they just be relegated to fluff and being a fixer? ) The faq says that personal contacts are really important but then doesn't say how to legally make them and barely touches on their use.
Really looking forward to seeing the next FAQ update.
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It's also the lack of info on how to build and use personal contacts for Missions. Spelling it out more would help players understand why they need that rating 6 fixer and what type of contacts they actually should have for their character that isn't just a fixer. (e.g. Are we supposed to build them using the Contacts rules in core, limited to missions legal qualities, or.. should they just be relegated to fluff and being a fixer? ) The faq says that personal contacts are really important but then doesn't say how to legally make them and barely touches on their use.
Really looking forward to seeing the next FAQ update.
Not sure what your asking about here, but there is no change to contacts in Missions. The only addition is the Missions contacts themselves that earn through playing.
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It's also the lack of info on how to build and use personal contacts for Missions. Spelling it out more would help players understand why they need that rating 6 fixer and what type of contacts they actually should have for their character that isn't just a fixer. (e.g. Are we supposed to build them using the Contacts rules in core, limited to missions legal qualities, or.. should they just be relegated to fluff and being a fixer? ) The faq says that personal contacts are really important but then doesn't say how to legally make them and barely touches on their use.
Really looking forward to seeing the next FAQ update.
It is relatively straightforward to some degree:
Playing a gun-bunny? Get a weapons dealer contact for new weapons and ammo.
Playing a mage? Get a talismonger contact for reagents, spell formula and foci.
Heavily augmented? Get a cybertechnician contact for upgrading chrome.
Playing a rigger? Get a drone supplier contact for new drones and upgrades.
Playing a decker? Get an electronics supplier contact for software, agents and upgrades.
Using lots of drugs? Get a dealer contact for basic drugs, or a chemist for pharmaceutical grade stuff.
If you've got that sort of stuff covered then get either a fixer or people who can give you the word on the street or amoung various circles of society.
Not sure what your asking about here, but there is no change to contacts in Missions. The only addition is the Missions contacts themselves that earn through playing.
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Yeah, the only difference between Missions Contacts and Shadowrun-normal contacts is that bog-standard contacts you roll their Charisma + Negotiate + Quality Bonuses to find gear. Since you may have contacts that don't have a Charisma or Negotiation rank known, the Missions way is to treat them all based on their Connection rating and Loyalty rating.
For most Missions Contacts that you can earn, they do actually have those statted out, but this was done both to make it easier if you didn't have their statblock with you and to keep parity with custom contacts, which aren't usually fully built. Ironically, this means that Sarah Silverleaf can only get you availability 15 gear at character creation with Missions or availability 19 with 6 Loyalty (which is ... unlikely), but could get you up to 19 or 23 if you use her sheet values.
I'm confident the upcoming reputation guidelines will make gear-biased characters pay less of a tax on availability.
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Well there's things like
"How many different favor types can a contact provide?"
"Can a fixer have a primary favor that doesn't have a fixer cost?"
"How specifically does one increase a personal contacts loyalty?" (Connection was clarified on facebook as being non-increasable until after Season 09 while they work it out)
"Are CHIPS allowed in Missions?"
"What contacts do I actually need other than a fixer?"
The core book says that Prime Runner Contacts are typically either inferior or equal to players in terms of karma and nuyen payout. "Which is it for missions?" It matters because for $15,000 you can hire your contact to help on a run.
"Does a Contact's Contacts matter?"
"Are instruction costs reduced by loyalty?"
"Missions has limitations on qualities and actions which can be performed in order to create balance between the Missions Tables. Are any of those limitations applied to contacts or, due to their nature, does it not matter?"
"When my contact is making a purchase, can I add die to their rolls by adding money or is that only when my character is searching for gear?"
There's more but that's what I could think of in a few minutes. "Contacts are normal contacts in missions" doesn't answer any of those questions.
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It's also the lack of info on how to build and use personal contacts for Missions. Spelling it out more would help players understand why they need that rating 6 fixer and what type of contacts they actually should have for their character that isn't just a fixer. (e.g. Are we supposed to build them using the Contacts rules in core, limited to missions legal qualities, or.. should they just be relegated to fluff and being a fixer? ) The faq says that personal contacts are really important but then doesn't say how to legally make them and barely touches on their use.
Really looking forward to seeing the next FAQ update.
It is relatively straightforward to some degree:
Playing a gun-bunny? Get a weapons dealer contact for new weapons and ammo.
Playing a mage? Get a talismonger contact for reagents, spell formula and foci.
Heavily augmented? Get a cybertechnician contact for upgrading chrome.
Playing a rigger? Get a drone supplier contact for new drones and upgrades.
Playing a decker? Get an electronics supplier contact for software, agents and upgrades.
Using lots of drugs? Get a dealer contact for basic drugs, or a chemist for pharmaceutical grade stuff.
If you've got that sort of stuff covered then get either a fixer or people who can give you the word on the street or amoung various circles of society.
Not sure what your asking about here, but there is no change to contacts in Missions. The only addition is the Missions contacts themselves that earn through playing.
That Talismonger needs to be the same tradition as you in order to help. Do they also provide instruction tests? Gathering reagents is banned in missions... How do I increase my loyalty with my Talismonger and how do I help my talismonger provide me with better gear.
What do I have to give my armorer in order to have them produce the item. Some items have +availability while some mods have their own. Do they require their own availability test?
Also, if you have high charisma, than due to the "7 points" limit in missions, none of those contacts can have high loyalty and high connection, so you have to add a handful of them to spend the points, but if a fixer can do the same job as all the other contacts, why even bother?
we can hand wave a lot of the details because they don't matter in the minutia of missions play, but if you're trying to follow the calendar rules and utilize your contacts efficiently (outside of just 'get me a piece of gear in my downtime plz') then there's a lot of grey area which could be clarified and would help to answer questions like "How does one get high availability gear"
edit: Also, while Missions doesn't change Contacts in the faq, they also don't include any rules about how to make them and since a great deal of balance is required between tables, its very easy for one contact to break the table if they aren't built right. What are the limitations on contacts for missions?
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There's more but that's what I could think of in a few minutes. "Contacts are normal contacts in missions" doesn't answer any of those questions.
actually it does, I don't have my books or anything with me since I'm at work, so I can back it up with any page numbers or paragraph references so maybe someone could back me up, but see below ...
"How many different favor types can a contact provide?"
varies based on type of contact
"Can a fixer have a primary favor that doesn't have a fixer cost?"
no, that's why they are a fixer and not a ... weapons dealer for example
"How specifically does one increase a personal contacts loyalty?" (Connection was clarified on facebook as being non-increasable until after Season 09 while they work it out)
through roleplay ... see core rule book (CRB)
"Are CHIPS allowed in Missions?"
read the FAQ ... not disallowed means they are allowed
"What contacts do I actually need other than a fixer?"
whatever you want for your character
The core book says that Prime Runner Contacts are typically either inferior or equal to players in terms of karma and nuyen payout. "Which is it for missions?" It matters because for $15,000 you can hire your contact to help on a run.
no change for Missions for contacts ... see Prime Runner guidelines in the FAQ for pc's
"Does a Contact's Contacts matter?"
not really ... see "asking around" in the CRB, that's what a contact using his/her contacts is
"Are instruction costs reduced by loyalty?"
look up instruction cost ... I don't think so
"Missions has limitations on qualities and actions which can be performed in order to create balance between the Missions Tables. Are any of those limitations applied to contacts or, due to their nature, does it not matter?"
contacts are not pc's ... so no it doesn't really matter
"When my contact is making a purchase, can I add die to their rolls by adding money or is that only when my character is searching for gear?"
yep, just like it states in the CRB
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edit: Also, while Missions doesn't change Contacts in the faq, they also don't include any rules about how to make them and since a great deal of balance is required between tables, its very easy for one contact to break the table if they aren't built right. What are the limitations on contacts for missions?
again I'm not sure what you're asking here
game mechanic wise contacts consist of a name, type, loyalty rating, and connection rating ... that's it, anything would be fluff and shouldn't have any bearing on game play
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Is the Who You Know? section (Run Faster, pgs. 172-195) allowed?
Not really. Much of this section involves the ins and outs of Contacts, specifically in what sort of
relationship a character has with her Contacts. Unfortunately, much of this is outside the scope of your
average Missions game to handle, and we already handle Contacts a little differently anyway. Factor in
the unusual nature of the Campaign Contacts that characters automatically earn (usually), and the
majority of this section doesn’t really apply.
Chips, different contact types, costs, group contacts, blackmail, etc. are all in this section.
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Which is described as "Not really" allowed. Which parts aren't and are? The FAQ also says that you can pay $15,000 to have your contact come and join you for a mission, this means fleshing them out actually matters since they can be used. While a lot of the details are fluff, a fair bit of it impacts availability tests and calendar time which leads to lifestyle costs.
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"How many different favor types can a contact provide?"
varies based on type of contact
** And where is that described? Because the Who You Know section is considered "Not Really" allowed in the faq.
"Can a fixer have a primary favor that doesn't have a fixer cost?"
no, that's why they are a fixer and not a ... weapons dealer for example
** Does it say that anywhere or is that your opinion?
"How specifically does one increase a personal contacts loyalty?" (Connection was clarified on facebook as being non-increasable until after Season 09 while they work it out)
through roleplay ... see core rule book (CRB)
** Which is great, but is very vague and is exactly what I'm talking about in terms of "can unbalance the table" because of the differences in GM opinion. So how does it work in Missions since things have to be codified to limit abuse?
"Are CHIPS allowed in Missions?"
read the FAQ ... not disallowed means they are allowed
**Read the FAQ. The sections are described as "Not Really" allowed. That does not say which parts.
"What contacts do I actually need other than a fixer?"
whatever you want for your character
** Good advice for new players there... Why if there's no real benefit and it only takes connection ratings to achieve goals?
The core book says that Prime Runner Contacts are typically either inferior or equal to players in terms of karma and nuyen payout. "Which is it for missions?" It matters because for $15,000 you can hire your contact to help on a run.
no change for Missions for contacts ... see Prime Runner guidelines in the FAQ for pc's
** "No Change" does not answer "Which" when there are two options and neither are treated as default.
[quote
"Does a Contact's Contacts matter?"
not really ... see "asking around" in the CRB, that's what a contact using his/her contacts is
"Are instruction costs reduced by loyalty?"
look up instruction cost ... I don't think so
** It doesn't say it is, but shouldn't it? Shouldn't an instructor contact cost less to use than a random person on the street? If not, we start getting back around to the original question of why even bother with contacts when a Fixer can simply provide everything.
"Missions has limitations on qualities and actions which can be performed in order to create balance between the Missions Tables. Are any of those limitations applied to contacts or, due to their nature, does it not matter?"
contacts are not pc's ... so no it doesn't really matter
** Until you pull them out to adventure with you
[/quote]
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Hiring a Contact to help out on a Shadowrun is restricted to the Missions specific contacts, and even then they will only help out in certain ways.
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"Can a fixer have a primary favor that doesn't have a fixer cost?"
Yes, but it is fairly rare, one example is from season 5, Quantum Princess. She is a Fixer/Decker whose specific uses include computer gear.
As such you could use her for Decker related gear at no fixer mark-up, but anything else will have the +10% fixer mark-up.
As for what is Decker related gear, I myself play by a fairly strict interpretation, for example cyberdecks - yes; commlinks - no. And yes I know that many people will disagree with my interpretation, if in doubt ask the closest thing you have for a missions GM. Even if that's us, just be ready for a debate if you ask here.
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That's great for Missions contacts, but the FAQ encourages the player to create their personal contacts as Missions Contacts are really only relevant in very limited circumstances. (QP can't really help you in the Knoxville runs, etc)
We need clarification and more specificity on building contacts for missions, I expect that it will get proper treatment in the FAQ, but that it will just take some time before we get to see it unfortunately.
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We need clarification and more specificity on building contacts for missions, I expect that it will get proper treatment in the FAQ, but that it will just take some time before we get to see it unfortunately.
To build a contact, you purchase a Loyalty and a Connection, give them a name and choose what type of contact they are, and you're done. Nothing else needed or used.
All necessary rolls in Missions play are based on those two numbers*, so you don't need stats, and backgrounds and all the rest are pure fluff and have no impact on the game itself most of the time (barring home games where GMs have more time to involve personal backstories, contacts, and the like into the games).
You're overthinking this to a vast degree.
This is subject to change based on the new Missions FAQ, of course, but this is how the current rules are designed.
Bull
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To build a contact, you purchase a Loyalty and a Connection, give them a name and choose what type of contact they are, and you're done. Nothing else needed or used.
All necessary rolls in Missions play are based on those two numbers*, so you don't need stats, and backgrounds and all the rest are pure fluff and have no impact on the game itself most of the time (barring home games where GMs have more time to involve personal backstories, contacts, and the like into the games).
You're overthinking this to a vast degree.
This is subject to change based on the new Missions FAQ, of course, but this is how the current rules are designed.
Bull
absolutely correct Bull ... the only changes we have made to Mission contacts in the FAQ since you wrote it are identifying what kind of resources they can be used for
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Woof.
Those changes are welcome, but underwhelming. You need to get what I consider to be a sky-high Street Cred rating for it to make a real difference. The example uses 55 street cred. I've never seen anyone in a Missions game that broke 10.
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Dont forget 1 Street Cred per 10 Karma gained... by the time a character earns a Prime Runner promotion that's -15 to availability.
Edit: Wait no... thats 15 Street Cred... so -1.5 rouded up to -2 on the availability.
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Woof.
Those changes are welcome, but underwhelming. You need to get what I consider to be a sky-high Street Cred rating for it to make a real difference. The example uses 55 street cred. I've never seen anyone in a Missions game that broke 10.
The example given is my primary personal Missions Legal character who has not played every single SRM/CMP/PM. I'm still missing a lot of them. 391 TKE which translates to 39 Street Cred. The remaining 16 come from Street Cred received from playing Missions. I've also bought off every single point of Notoriety I've ever earned, so my Street Cred would be even higher if not for that.
I've been at tables with characters who have had more TKE and Street Cred than me because they have played every single one and have taken advantage of Working for the People.
The objective was not to make it easy to get higher availability gear, just easier.
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As someone who gets to play Missions games once or twice a year, this basically means that any meaningful augmentation upgrades are going to require spending 100-300% more to get the dice pool required to find them. And, playing a half-dozen sessions a year means I'm best off just not planning on advancing unless I go for a magic archetype.
If that's the design idea, that's fine. It was just not my impression.
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With Missions, as long as you complete the mission correctly you should earn at least 1 street cred for every mission.
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Woof.
Those changes are welcome, but underwhelming. You need to get what I consider to be a sky-high Street Cred rating for it to make a real difference. The example uses 55 street cred. I've never seen anyone in a Missions game that broke 10.
I have a 79 street cred.
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As someone who gets to play Missions games once or twice a year, this basically means that any meaningful augmentation upgrades are going to require spending 100-300% more to get the dice pool required to find them. And, playing a half-dozen sessions a year means I'm best off just not planning on advancing unless I go for a magic archetype.
If that's the design idea, that's fine. It was just not my impression.
You can (and should) have a face-type help you acquire gear.
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There's a Connection 6 out there. Between him and a decent Street Cred, Availability ~18-20 gear becomes trivial.
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Ok, let's see if I have this straight. I want a piece of gear with a 20f availability. My street cred drops that to 18. Page 418 in the core book says it's an opposing roll. So I have our face with high chr & negotiation try to find it for me. Have whoever the gm is roll the 18 dice as opposing & the face rolls his dice. I can then spend 1/4 of the price of the item I want to buy hits up to 400% of the value of the item. Not to mention the time it takes to look?
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I believe Buying Hits is the preferred method for acquiring gear?
Although it does beg the question when buying hits do you need to match, or exceed the number of dice of the object.
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Ties double the delivery time (p. 418, SR5).
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That... That actually makes getting a lot of typical gear a lot easier. I'll be sure to pass that little tidbit along.
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Ok, let's see if I have this straight. I want a piece of gear with a 20f availability. My street cred drops that to 18. Page 418 in the core book says it's an opposing roll. So I have our face with high chr & negotiation try to find it for me. Have whoever the gm is roll the 18 dice as opposing & the face rolls his dice. I can then spend 1/4 of the price of the item I want to buy hits up to 400% of the value of the item. Not to mention the time it takes to look?
I believe Buying Hits is the preferred method for acquiring gear?
mostly correct.
first as ScytheKnight responded in MIssions play buying hits is the designated method, but also when spending 25% of the items cost that provides a bonus dice to add to the test not hits