Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: astaroth999 on <06-07-15/0658:43>
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Smoke-and-Mirrors program
"This program increases the cyberdeck’s Sleaze attribute between 1 and 5 (user’s choice) with an equivalent amount of noise added to any tests performed with the deck. The noise also affects Trace Icon tests performed against the deck using the program"
I reckon the increase is for all sleaze test unlike Exploit program which specifies a single type of sleaze test. Question is does sleaze test includes resisting matrix perception which is a logic+sleaze test?
If it does, this will make this a must have program! If the enemy deckerscant find you, they cant do anything to you.
5 sleaze (Little Hornet Cyberdeck) + 1 (Overclock quality) + 1 (Increase Matrix Attribute mod) + 5 (Smoke-and-Mirrors program) + 1 (Stealth program) = 13 Sleaze + logic to resist matrix perception.
5 noise can be easily mitigated by 2 (Signal Scrub program) + 2 (Vectored Signal Filter mod) + 1 (Datajack)
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(Why did you post this twice?It's not just an increase for Sleaze tests - it's a straight up Sleaze attribute increase. So yes, it works against avoiding Matrix perception too.
And yes, that makes it... shall we say fairly good. Like you say, the noise can be compensated for (though I should note, that does cost quite a bit to do, and that means you're not compensating other noise).
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This wording brings a lot of problems: Direct connections don't suffer noise. That would allow even a radioshack deck to penetrate a moderate leveled host with ease.
Even better: Just bolt a program carrier with virtual machine to your commlink, load this program and enjoy a sleaze attribute increase from 0 to 5.
Somehow, I don't think that was the intention behind this program...
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I wonder if perhaps the infamous 'last sentance' got lopped off at some point...
"This Noise Penalty can not be counteracted by cyberware, modifications or other software."
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This wording brings a lot of problems: Direct connections don't suffer noise. That would allow even a radioshack deck to penetrate a moderate leveled host with ease.
Even better: Just bolt a program carrier with virtual machine to your commlink, load this program and enjoy a sleaze attribute increase from 0 to 5.
Somehow, I don't think that was the intention behind this program...
I agree. That is why i feel for a cheap program, it is OP. Especially when the drawbacks can be so easily mitigated.
it does bring to the table very cheap way for street sam to afford decent protection via evotech himitsu. Or better yet hermes ikon slaved to an evotech himitsu to get a very decent sleaze machine for sub 20k. 0555 is probably enough for b&e to get into most places via direct connection, especially if u can ignore noise modifier.
but the problem i feel is for a typical decker out of char gen, it is not difficult to get 22 dp to resist spotting. Plus in event of tie, defender wins. This means that the opposing hacker have to get 25 dp to reliably win a spotting test. This mean gm will have to put out host 12 or create legendary class decker just to spot an average decker.
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"This program increases the cyberdeck’s Sleaze attribute" reading it as has to have a sleaze attribute to begin with
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Rather than going down the wormhole of whether a commlink has Sleaze 0 or Sleaze - (I prefer the latter interpretation, particularly now that we have mods that expressly allow actually giving it an attribute), let's just go with the fact that a commlink can definitely have a Sleaze dongle to gain a Sleaze rating, as well as getting a program carrier module with S&M in it.
It is pretty powerful, although I haven't tested it out in game yet. I'd love to see where an AI could get with that given the optimzation bonuses and a solid deck, something like a 19 Sleaze...
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Just to clarify: It doesn't do a thing for a device that doesn't already have a Sleaze attribute. You'll have to manage that step separately.
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3k nuyen and a Rating 1 stealth dongle takes care of that prerequisite.
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Or EvoTech Himitsu 2 1 2 8R 11,000¥ + Receiver 3 400¥ + Program Carrier 2 900¥ Virtual Machine 80 Signal scrub 250 9 sleaze
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Is the Stealth Dongle cumulative with the EvoTech Himitsu?
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Is the Stealth Dongle cumulative with the EvoTech Himitsu?
Doubtful. If it was, it would replace the rating of the base commlink. So you could put a Rating 4 Stealth dongle on it, but considering the Evotech Himitsu already has Sleaze 5 I don't see why you'd want to do that.
And Rooks, the program carrier comes with a hardcoded program, so it'd be 900 for the carrier and Virtual Machine, and then 250 for Signal Scrub and another 250 for Smoke-and-Mirrors, for a total of 12,400¥ for a commlink with DR2, 2 Noise Reduction, and Sleaze 5 with the possibility of Sleaze 10 (you'd lose your wireless bonuses, but you'd be much more difficult to spot in the Matrix).
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And Rooks, the program carrier comes with a hardcoded program, so it'd be 900 for the carrier and Virtual Machine, and then 250 for Signal Scrub and another 250 for Smoke-and-Mirrors, for a total of 12,400¥ for a commlink with DR2, 2 Noise Reduction, and Sleaze 5 with the possibility of Sleaze 10 (you'd lose your wireless bonuses, but you'd be much more difficult to spot in the Matrix).
That does get into the question of whether PANs are entirely wireless Matrix constructs. If they are, then a device that loses its wireless connection presumably can't serve as a Master in a PAN. The rules are pretty hazy and I'm not sure if Aaron's call about what losing Wireless means helps matters. I'm referring to the old "a jammed out commlink can still communicate" issue. Personally, although a commlink doesn't have a listed wireless bonus, it seems to me like it probably needs to be wireless on to communicate.
Actually irrelevant for S&M I guess, considering what Top Dog pointed out below.
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And Rooks, the program carrier comes with a hardcoded program, so it'd be 900 for the carrier and Virtual Machine, and then 250 for Signal Scrub and another 250 for Smoke-and-Mirrors, for a total of 12,400¥ for a commlink with DR2, 2 Noise Reduction, and Sleaze 5 with the possibility of Sleaze 10 (you'd lose your wireless bonuses, but you'd be much more difficult to spot in the Matrix).
Smoke and Mirrors only gives Noise for actions done with the commlink; it doesn't add "generic" noise. That means that you don't lose wireless bonuses from it at all (especially since you now have 2 Noise Reduction for when you hit actual noise).
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Good call. That makes it even more interesting for any non-decker to use in a hardwired program carrier on a device with an existing sleaze attribute, because it actually allows you to run silently with a more than lousy chance of success.
Street Samurai/Magician/Face with 4 Willpower + Device Rating 5 Commlink (3K) + Sleaze 1 Dongle (3K) + Program Carrier (0.9K) = DP5, FW5, Sleaze 1-6, for a total Run Silently dice pool of 10 instead of 4, all for the low price of less than 7K.
With the EvoTech Himitsu (11K) this becomes Willpower 4 + Sleaze 5 + Program Carrier: Smoke-and-Mirrors 1-5 (0.9K) = DP1, FW2, Sleaze 6-10, for a total Run Silently dice pool of 10-14 instead of 9, at a meager 900 nuyen investment over the base 11k for the EvoTech.
Can you specialize in running silently?
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Yes Brackhouse. It's such a good option that I contemplate not doing it on my char because it'd be too good. Especially since it's Logic + Sleaze and my character is hermetic, so yay 20 dice.
You can't specialize in it though. It's not a skill.
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EvoTech Himitsu already have a module hardwired into the board.
Since it isn't a cyberdeck it cannot accept a second module (such as Program Carrier).
SR5-DT p. 66 Device Modifications
Unless otherwise noted, a device can only have one modification.
SR5-DT p. 66 Add a module
Most devices can only have one module, although cyberdecks can have two—one in the normal module slot, and the one you hardwire in.
SR5-DT p. 62 EvoTech Himitsu
the commlink has a stealth module integrated into the board, giving it Sleaze 5.
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I want to offer you an alternative way of reading the description of Smoke and Mirrors
1)
"This program increases the cyberdeck’s Sleaze attribute ... to any tests performed with the deck."
This might or might not mean you get a higher limit on all your Sleaze actions you perform with the deck (and not when someone is trying to spot your smartgun with matrix perception).
2)
"... with an equivalent amount of noise added to any tests performed with the deck."
This might or might not mean you get a negative dice pool modifier on all your Data Processing, Firewall, Attack and Sleaze actions you perform with the deck (such as when you use matrix perception to spot someone running silent or if your devices have unwanted marks on them).
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"The noise also affects Trace Icon tests performed against the deck using the program."
This might or might not mean that when someone use the Trace Icon (and not Matrix Perception) against the device that run this program (and not a device that is just slaved to the device that run the program) they will get a negative dice pool modifier.
Discuss.
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EvoTech Himitsu already have a module hardwired into the board.
SR5-DT p. 62 EvoTech Himitsu
the commlink has a stealth module integrated into the board, giving it Sleaze 5.
We'll have to check with Kincaid or one of the other freelancers on this one. The person writing the EvoTech may have intended that as a (generic term) module instead of a (game term) module, particularly since there isn't a module that adds a Matrix Attribute in the book, just a modification.
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Xenon
That may or may not be the case, especially given that whole integral modification vs not firearms have to deal with.
To my mind, the integral Sleaze 5 rating of the Evotech should not prevent a user from adding a dongle or modification; in this case, the sleaze attribute comes from a module that is integral to the unit, which in my opinion means it does not take up the modification slot. Pending official comment, I don't see that view changing anytime soon because that's how I view other mods for guns and the like.
As for your alternative reading of the rule mechanics, I don't think that meshes with the intent of the program so I disagree on that as well. If the writers had intended for both the attribute increase and noise to only apply to actions taken with the deck they could have specified this but they didn't, which to my mind implies that the sleaze attribute is increased for all intents and purposes, while the noise applies only to actions taken. If the opposite was true, the program would be much less useful, as you would get a limit increase but a dice pool decrease which would be significantly unbalanced.
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I'm just miffed about this on a deck. Seriously, it's...
Alright, here's my "win the matrix" build. First, start with the cheap "Data Anomaly" quality. Sprites are so uncommon, it's worth being automatically found-- Especially when it doesn't mean the TM can find you automatically.
Then we get a potent cyberdeck. The Shiawase Cyber-4 is ideal, but for a point less the Azteca 300 will be doable. Load Sneak and Smoke-And-Mirrors, and Signal Scrubber. Data Jack cyberwear of course, and throw in the Vectored Signal Filter (hardwired in). Mod your deck to boost your highest attribute array by 1, lowering something else (or taking the 2 perm damage). You now have a Sleaze of, that's right, 15. Combined with a maxed out LOG, potentially doing something like Restricted Gear (Cerebral Booster), and Exceptional Attribute (LOG) for 10 LOG.
With around 25 dice to resist Matrix Perception, no normal hacker will find you, and hosts of rating 10 or lower are likely to have difficulty-- 6 or below stands almost no chance.
You're actually so stealthy that you're better off using Attack actions, because WCS is they start making Matrix Perception tests and fail, where as a failed Sleaze would mean they mark you. You could metaphorically burn a host to the ground and laugh in the flames while the spider and all the IC flail around unable to spot you.
You're not even that disadvantaged! You still have your second highest attribute available for Attack and your dice pools for Cybercombat and such aren't negatively affected. Aside from modding the deck for higher Sleaze, these are all things a decker could do by accident! Just logical stuff to be more effective.
I mean... Shit! That's 8 hits on average. Considering limits, you might actually be beyond most hardware's capability of spotting you.
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You could metaphorically burn a host to the ground and laugh in the flames while the spider and all the IC flail around unable to spot you.
Some people just want to watch the world burn. Seriously, that was excellently written. Bravo! *slowclap*
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I'm just miffed about this on a deck. Seriously, it's...
Alright, here's my "win the matrix" build. First, start with the cheap "Data Anomaly" quality. Sprites are so uncommon, it's worth being automatically found-- Especially when it doesn't mean the TM can find you automatically.
Then we get a potent cyberdeck. The Shiawase Cyber-4 is ideal, but for a point less the Azteca 300 will be doable. Load Sneak and Smoke-And-Mirrors, and Signal Scrubber. Data Jack cyberwear of course, and throw in the Vectored Signal Filter (hardwired in). Mod your deck to boost your highest attribute array by 1, lowering something else (or taking the 2 perm damage). You now have a Sleaze of, that's right, 15. Combined with a maxed out LOG, potentially doing something like Restricted Gear (Cerebral Booster), and Exceptional Attribute (LOG) for 10 LOG.
With around 25 dice to resist Matrix Perception, no normal hacker will find you, and hosts of rating 10 or lower are likely to have difficulty-- 6 or below stands almost no chance.
You're actually so stealthy that you're better off using Attack actions, because WCS is they start making Matrix Perception tests and fail, where as a failed Sleaze would mean they mark you. You could metaphorically burn a host to the ground and laugh in the flames while the spider and all the IC flail around unable to spot you.
You're not even that disadvantaged! You still have your second highest attribute available for Attack and your dice pools for Cybercombat and such aren't negatively affected. Aside from modding the deck for higher Sleaze, these are all things a decker could do by accident! Just logical stuff to be more effective.
I mean... Shit! That's 8 hits on average. Considering limits, you might actually be beyond most hardware's capability of spotting you.
Thats i feel its way op if it really works like this. This is basically like taking out most of the danger of matrix and the risk of running wireless equipments. The chances of someone spotting you and bricking ur equipment is way too low.
All this ask for is for the gm to escalate the arms war in matrix to deal with u.
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You could metaphorically burn a host to the ground and laugh in the flames while the spider and all the IC flail around unable to spot you.
Some people just want to watch the world burn. Seriously, that was excellently written. Bravo! *slowclap*
Thanks! <3
I'm thinking it will be errata'd to be "the penalty caused by Smoke-and-Mirrors cannot be reduced by Noise Reduction." It's a simple fix.
Though really, that only half-solves it. It wouldn't make what I described impossible, it would just mean you're more likely to fail your attack actions. Which, in a host... Well, would mostly be marking devices you have a direct connection to, since the IC wouldn't be able to spot you (and thus you could ignore them). Even with -5 dice, you've probably still got enough dice to mark a security camera via direct connection.
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I want to offer you an alternative way of reading the description of Smoke and Mirrors
1)
"This program increases the cyberdeck’s Sleaze attribute ... to any tests performed with the deck."
This might or might not mean you get a higher limit on all your Sleaze actions you perform with the deck (and not when someone is trying to spot your smartgun with matrix perception).
2)
"... with an equivalent amount of noise added to any tests performed with the deck."
This might or might not mean you get a negative dice pool modifier on all your Data Processing, Firewall, Attack and Sleaze actions you perform with the deck (such as when you use matrix perception to spot someone running silent or if your devices have unwanted marks on them).
3)
"The noise also affects Trace Icon tests performed against the deck using the program."
This might or might not mean that when someone use the Trace Icon (and not Matrix Perception) against the device that run this program (and not a device that is just slaved to the device that run the program) they will get a negative dice pool modifier.
Discuss.
Interesting read, but I disagree (to point 1).
The grammar doesn't hold up. You don't "increase the ... Sleaze attribute ... to any test" (emphasis mine), you increase it for any test. Pedantic point, perhaps, and it could be that the writers miswrote the sentence, but as written it can't support your interpretation. It would be hard to rewrite the sentence with some minor alterations to say that as well (you'd have to restructure the whole sentence to get it to say that).
I think point two is a yes, though. Matrix perception is still a test performed with the deck. But if that's a noise penalty, it's still negatable. Plus, you decide the penalty, so you can temporarily lower it when you want to do stuff, so it's still a net bonus for you.
The specific callout for Sleaze in the line quoted in 3 is weird though, unless combined with point 1, which does lend credibility to that argument (although, in my opinion, not enough). Sleaze is already increasing the Trace Icon defense test, so that would mean that the program gives double that bonus to resisting Trace Icon tests (and, like you say, only Trace Icon, only against the device running the program). Which is oddly specific. It makes sense combined with 1.
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Could it be the intent, even if the grammar is slightly off?
1-5 positive sleaze limit for sleaze tests
1-5 noise penalty on all tests (including but not limited to sleaze)
1-5 negative dice pool modifier to Trace Icon against the device
....no extra protection against matrix perception?
The other alternative:
1-5 positive sleaze limit for sleaze tests
1-5 noise penalty on all tests (including but not limited to sleaze)
1-5 negative dice pool modifier to Trace Icon against the device
1-5 positive dice pool modifier when defending against matrix perception and trace icon and any other defense that use sleaze.
Up to 10 dice relatively bonus vs trace icon?? Strange way to word it if that really was the intent?
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Perhaps. The fluff of the program does indicate it's specifically designed to counter being physically located (IE Trace Icon). But then why is Sleaze increased at all?
By the way, if we follow your interpretation for point 1, the extra Sleaze still helps agains Matrix Perception against the deck itself; however you interpret it, that's still a test performed with the deck (even if it is not an action). It would only make a difference for slaved devices.
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That depend upon if a defence, resistance and/or damage soak "test" really is a "test you perform with the deck" or not.
I think we can both agree that it applies to success tests, opposed tests and extended tests.
The test to avoid getting spotted when running silent is actually an opposed Matrix perception test performed by someone else. If this test is successful then he spot you. If he fail then he can use "Trying Again".
You don't "fail" when defending or resisting a test.
You don't use "Trying Again" if your defense "fail".
Having said that, the book do talk about them as Defense "Tests" and Resistance "Tests". Then again they don't list Defense Tests and Resistance Tests under "Tests and Limits".
To be honest I am not sure what to think. Yet. I need to read the book some more first :)
I want to belive that smoke and mirrors just reduce the chance of trace icon (and increase your sleaze limit and give you noise) but it might very well be supposed to give you and all your slaved devices up to 5 extra dice against matrix perception (sounds a bit too good to be true for a single program if you ask me).
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You could metaphorically burn a host to the ground and laugh in the flames while the spider and all the IC flail around unable to spot you.
Some people just want to watch the world burn. Seriously, that was excellently written. Bravo! *slowclap*
Considering Matrix perception is a complex action and afterwards the person spotted can roll their hide to stop from being spotted, yes cat and mouse is a thing also give a use for that Fresnel Fabric
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The more I read the entry the more I'm convinced that Smoke-and-mirrors is that good. While signal scrub (uses a program slot), Vectored Signal filter (mod slot) and datajack would counteract the noise generated by the program they cannot help you against the noise of the area you are in. Having a direct connection of course takes care of that.
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Just pile on the datajacks. Their noise reduction is cumulative (at least in Missions, the last time I checked).
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Even before this, against an opponent who also has a good deck, it was very easy to be unable to find each other if both running silent. Last matrix combat I was involved in was settled by firearms.
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Quick question - what does a host or patrol IC roll to spot a silent running icon? Nowhere in the section on Hosts in the core book does it give either the Host or the IC a Computer skill, so do they all roll Host Rating - 1 [DP]? If the most dice a Host/IC can throw against an intruder on a MP test is 11, then even without S&M avoiding detection is pretty easy.
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You could metaphorically burn a host to the ground and laugh in the flames while the spider and all the IC flail around unable to spot you.
Some people just want to watch the world burn. Seriously, that was excellently written. Bravo! *slowclap*
Considering Matrix perception is a complex action and afterwards the person spotted can roll their hide to stop from being spotted, yes cat and mouse is a thing also give a use for that Fresnel Fabric
Data Trails page 178 changes Matrix Perception to a Simple Action.
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Data Trails page 178 changes Matrix Perception to a Simple Action.
I'm 100% positive the use of "Simple Matrix Actions" in that heading isn't supposed to refer to the game term "Simple Action."
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The opening sentence supports Jack's view"
The Matrix is designed to be used by the average per- son. The following are simple Matrix actions that any- one with a commlink and access can generally do.
Their use of simple is meant to indicate that they require little skill or training to do, though skill could certainly allow one to do them better.
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The distinction is between "simple Matrix actions" (which is what appears in the text) and Simple Actions in the Matrix. Types of actions (Interrupt, Complex, Simple, Free) should always be capitalized. The text refers to actions that are basic and generally uncomplicated--things non-hackers can do to get utility out of the Matrix.
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So you guys wouldn't say that Smoke and Mirrors is unbalanced? My current decker at drug-Logic 11 and 10 Sleaze (with mod) would get to 26 dice versus being seen. Seems almost broken. I'm OK to do it but I'm worried about how much it trivializes Matrix runs. :S
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To be fair Razhul, that's 21 dice pre-S&M, that's pretty far out there already :p
But yes, I do think it's overpowered.
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How did you get a sleaze attribute of 10?
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A very good deck (one of the Fairlights) gives a 9 at the high end; set that to sleaze and add 1 more from a program or modification. It's expensive, but certainly within the realms of a (high end) decker.
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How did you get a sleaze attribute of 10?
Following an insane run for Ares on Mars (yes, the planet), my decker had the funds to upgrade to a Fairlight Excalibur. The GM allowed me to pay the difference instead of paying whole price.
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The distinction is between "simple Matrix actions" (which is what appears in the text) and Simple Actions in the Matrix. Types of actions (Interrupt, Complex, Simple, Free) should always be capitalized. The text refers to actions that are basic and generally uncomplicated--things non-hackers can do to get utility out of the Matrix.
*nodnod* Noted.
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How did you get a sleaze attribute of 10?
buy a EvoTech Himitsu (sleaze 5) add a module program carrier to run a cyberprogram (virtual machine smoke and mirrors and signal scrub) add a Receiver dongle and use datajack wireless bonus and take overclocker quality (sleaze 11) added bonus get a technomancer to have a sprite run diagnostics and the technomancer to run cleaner to reset your overwatch score possibly have someone cast analyze device on your commlink for bonus dice
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EvoTech Himitsu ... add a module program carrier ...
This form factor device already have a prefabricated component that extends the capabilities of the device (special module that give it 5 sleaze). You can't hardwire more than one module into the board....
What you could do with modifications is to "Increase a Matrix Attribute" to get a sleaze rating of 6 (for 12 component parts and permanently reducing the matrix condition monitor by 2).
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That's not a prefab module, Xenon - it's just a commlink with 5 Sleaze. You can add another module to that.
(Of course, we already know how Razhul got the 10 Sleaze - it's a hideously expensive cyberdeck that he got for cheap).
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Not sure I follow. Why doesn't the commlink have a module hardwird into the board when the text say "the commlink has a stealth module integrated into the board"?
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Because there's no "stealth module" in the module section to be hardwired in that way - it's a different concept with the same name.
Besides, even if it was, the rule is that devices can only have one modification. That can be used to hardwire a module, or different things - but devices that have a module already (like a cyberdeck) can have a second one modified in.
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When you hardwire something it become integrated into the board.
Hardwire:
"To implement (a capability) through logic circuitry that is permanently connected within a computer and therefore not subject to change by programming."
All cyberdecks have one slot that accept one module.
The module in the cyberdeck module slot is not hardwired/integrated into the board.
"Inserting, removing, or swapping modules requires a Hardware + Logic [Mental] (1) Test and about half a minute of time (10 Combat Turns)."
An integrated module is a module that is hardwired into the board (the alternative would be a module you can insert, remove or swap).
Devices (including but not limited to cyberdecks) can only have one module hardwired/integrated into the board.
"Most devices can only have one module, although cyberdecks can have two—one in the normal module slot, and the one you hardwire in".
(they are not talking about "one modification" here - they are talking about one hardwired module + one module in a cyberdeck module slot)
The form factor EvoTech Himitsu Commlink already come fitted with a module. This module does not come in a cyberdeck slot. It come hardwired/integrated into the board.
"the commlink has a stealth module integrated into the board"
There is no specific rule that say this hardwired/integrated module would not count towards the general rule that limit all devices to one hardwired/integrated module per device.
There is no specific rule that say this commlink can accept two hardwired modules.
In the chapter "The guts of of the matrix" they frequently use the word "module" while actually talking about the key word "cyberdeck module".
Two pages earlier, still in "The guts of of the matrix", they also use the word "module" in the description of the EvoTech Himitsu.
They might or might not mean a "cyberdeck module" like the other ~20 times they used the word "module" elsewhere in "The guts of of the matrix".
They might or might not mean a different concept that is also named "module"
(this is similar to SR5 when they in some cases meant the key word "cyberprogram" but in many cases just typed "program").
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I think you're reading too much into this one, Xenon.
This is the "what counts as an integral weapon modification" debate all over again. It has been clarified by developers that a weapon that comes with a silencer from the factory still has a free barrel slot for other modifications. I would presume the same applies to other gear such as commlinks.
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If there would have been a rule that you could only rebuild a weapon to integrate ONE firearm accessory into a firearm and that there would have been a custom weapon that already came modified with a firearm accessory integrated into the weapon.... then yes - I would argue that you cannot rebuild it to integrate a SECOND firearm accessory (unless otherwise noted).
There IS a rule that you can only hardwire one module into a commlink. This specific commlink already come with a hardwired module......
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If there would have been a rule that you could only rebuild a weapon to integrate ONE firearm accessory into a firearm and that there would have been a custom weapon that already came modified with a firearm accessory integrated into the weapon.... then yes - I would argue that you cannot rebuild it to integrate a SECOND firearm accessory (unless otherwise noted).
There IS a rule that you can only hardwire one module into a commlink. This specific commlink already come with a hardwired module......
So could you please explain in your own words how the EvoTech Himitsu has a sleaze 5 stealth module integrated into the commlink when adding a matrix attribute is considered one modification increasing a matrix attribute is another modification adding a module is another modification and that device can only have one modification
or even what a stealth module is the rules surrounding said stealth module and the book and page reference that explains what a stealth module is how I can get one and how I can integrate a stealth module to have a sleaze rating on a commlink even though the very existence of one refutes the rule paradigm outlayed later on in the pages of said book
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So could you please explain in your own words how the EvoTech Himitsu has a sleaze 5 stealth module integrated into the commlink....
It's an example of a non-standard form factor. They do all kinds of stuff you can't build yourself (because the build and repair rules of data trails are not detailed enough). You can't build a device rating 2 commlink with 7 firewall for just 2000, either. Shrug.
So this non-standard form factor comes with a module already hardwired into the board (so you cannot modify it to add another hardwired module).
From the looks of it it this module sacrifice half your data processing rating to gain 5 sleaze rating.
It seem to add +4 to the availability code (or maybe double the availability code) of the commlink. A commlink with this module become restricted.
It also seem to cost you about 10,300 ¥ extra.
Players are probably not supposed to build non-standard form factor commlinks. GMs are.
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So this non-standard form factor comes with a module already hardwired into the board (so you cannot modify it to add another hardwired module).
I would like to point out that this is pure conjecture based on grammar and context which we know to be far from foolproof.
You assume that the description of the "hardwired module" means the commlink has been modified in some way. I assume this means the commlink comes from the factory with an integral module that does not count against the modification rules.
Both points of view are exactly that; points of view. This is one of those "talk to your GM" situations, because this question boils down interpretation more than anything else.
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Both points of view are exactly that; points of view.
Agreed. And in this particular case I might very well be wrong (but I don't think there are crystal clear evidence for either side - that's the main reason why i'm pushing it a bit further than i probably should).
The root cause of the confusion is that the author choose to use the word "module" instead of the key word "cyberdeck module" in about 20 other places in the same chapter. It then become confusing when/if they talk about a "module" that might or might not be a "cyberdeck module". Several examples of similar behavior in SR5 core. When it comes to the matrix chapter they used the word "program" on several locations instead of the key word "cyberprogram", causing the exact same confusion. It is not easy (or in some cases even possible) to figure out if they actually mean "cyberprogram", "commlink app", "pilot program", "autosoft" or whatnot - when they just write "program".
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I do see your point of view, Xenon - and I think the term 'module' is not the best choice in the context indeed. Although I disagree with your ultimate conclusion; but it's not without it's merits.
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Xenon... I agree that CGL really need to let 10 pedantic Rules Lawyers crunch these books before they get released. I'm sure that the play testers are smart, sensible, & reasonable people who do a decent job of play testing the balance of the game. But their editing & wording needs some serious clean up... I agree that this is another "Integral Weapon Accessory" modification case, it comes like that Stock so it doesn't qualify as a Modification (especially since their isn't even a Module that you could use) but the wording is poor. You are free to read it however you want but I think you might be "reading to much into it" in this case. ::) I do so love a bad pun!!!
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I'm inclined to agree it doesn't count towards the modification limits. Decks after all have attack and sleeze (with variable ratings depending on set up) room for an insertable mod and one you hardwire in so I can't see it unreasonable that a himitsu had a stealth component added without taking up the usual connection slots otherwise it'd ship with an unfixable 2 matrix damage as per the increase an attribute rules.
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So how does a device running smoke and mirrors avoid the noise rating potentially making the device inoperable?
The noise rating must be less than the device rating to allow operation.
It's still a good addition though fair signal jammer will cause a stir.....
and noise is a negitive to dice pools also so the bonus is effectively cancled in wireless mode?
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If the noise generated is higher than the device rating, the device temporary loses any wireless bonus.
A commlink often have rather high device rating.
A commlink normally don't have a wireless bonus.
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Run smoke and mirrors when the device is wired in no noise penalty with full sleeze bonus.
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Not the case with Smoke and Mirrors, Xenon. The program specifically states that the noise penalty only applies to actions taken with the deck. This means it does not apply like noise in general.
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My post was more about noise in general; That since commlinks don't have a wireless bonus they don't really get affected. At least not as long as you don't end up in a matrix dead zone.
The only real effect noise have on a commlink is that personas based on it will get a negative dice pool modifier on matrix related tasks (such as remote controlling your car, searching the matrix for information, spotting a silent running icon that is attacking a device in your PAN etc.)
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So could you please explain in your own words how the EvoTech Himitsu has a sleaze 5 stealth module integrated into the commlink....
It's an example of a non-standard form factor. They do all kinds of stuff you can't build yourself (because the build and repair rules of data trails are not detailed enough). You can't build a device rating 2 commlink with 7 firewall for just 2000, either. Shrug.
So this non-standard form factor comes with a module already hardwired into the board (so you cannot modify it to add another hardwired module).
From the looks of it it this module sacrifice half your data processing rating to gain 5 sleaze rating.
It seem to add +4 to the availability code (or maybe double the availability code) of the commlink. A commlink with this module become restricted.
It also seem to cost you about 10,300 ¥ extra.
except no where does it say in the description explicitly that the "stealth module" takes up the modification "slot" of the device,
Players are probably not supposed to build non-standard form factor commlinks. GMs are.
Except that kinda flies in the face of every shadowrun edition where your supposed to make cyberdecks customizable based on the users taste heck even RCCs has an example of scratch built RCC
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1) I simply think it is unfortunate that they used the word module instead of the key word cyberdeck module in almost 20 locations in the same chapter. This make the book ambiguous when they suddenly talk about a module in a place where they might or might not intend it to be a cyberdeck module.
2) I am well aware that you could build a cyberdeck from the ground up in 2nd ed. But in SR5 there are simply no rules for players to build a form factor commlink or cyberdeck. If you think that flies in the face of every other edition, take it up with the author.
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Hmmm. Maybe a hack of smoke and mirrors can be written. As deckers call themselves hackers.
Lots of ways to go and even the old 4th edition programmimg tests can be used as programs had ratings back then....
rating can be applied to the penalty reduction....
Imagine having to go into the foundation to keep a program updated? Or somthing as difficult?
It would be worth the hassle.......
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If the noise generated is higher than the device rating, the device temporary loses any wireless bonus.
A commlink often have rather high device rating.
A commlink normally don't have a wireless bonus.
Is that before or after any Noise reduction? Most starter decks are rating 3, does that cap Smoke and Mirrors at 3, or do you get to add in Noise reduction from Data Jack, Signal Scrubber, whatever, and run Smoke and Mirrors at +5 Sleaze?
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Um I hate to bring up an inconvenient point about program carrier and com links but it does say under program carrier you can run any program your "deck" can run..since your comm is not a deck, should you be even able to use program carrier, since coms can't normally take programs?
I do agree for a normal deck, smoke and mirrors is broken with noise reduction, especially with the new anatennas
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Um I hate to bring up an inconvenient point about program carrier and com links but it does say under program carrier you can run any program your "deck" can run..since your comm is not a deck, should you be even able to use program carrier, since coms can't normally take programs?
I do agree for a normal deck, smoke and mirrors is broken with noise reduction, especially with the new anatennas
Ya but then you can run an agent on a commlink? but agents take up a program "slot" on your cyberdeck but commlinks dont have program slots but are able to run agents on them?
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Specific trumps general rules:
Normaly you can't run cyberprograms on coms, but with the module mod you can.
That wasn't to hard, was it? :)
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I'd rule that commlinks wireless bonus is the ability to send and recieve calls. Because there is no way to do that not connected to the matrix so if you smoke and mirror your comlink too much it is no longer a comlink. Just a little computer with music and a calendar and stuff.
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so a smart phone without a calling plan?
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Or you could rule that it Increases the cyberdeck's Sleaze attribute between 1 and 5 (user’s choice) for matrix actions performed with the deck with an equivalent amount of noise added to matrix actions performed with the deck. The noise also affects Trace Icon tests performed against the deck using the program.
(no benefit against matrix perception while running silent and no double dip against trace icon).
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The more I think about it the more that interpretation makes sense. Although it's still stupidly worded in a way that supports (or well, opposes, actually) both interpretations.
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Or, you know, you could just reword it so its actually balanced, especially with the new Anatenna's from Chrome Flesh. How about this:
1) This program gives you +2 to the sleaze attribute for the purpose of opposed matrix perception tests and against trace icon attempts.
No idiocy about +5 sleaze, all the time, with no real consequences with noise reduction cheap and easy. Just something that is perfectly inline with EVERY other program, either +1 straight or +2 to something more specialized.
As it is,Smoke and Mirrors is completely overpowered compare to every other program.
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As it is,Smoke and Mirrors is completely overpowered compare to every other program.
The cyberprogram is perfectly balanced if you rule that it "increases the cyberdeck’s Sleaze attribute between 1 and 5 (user’s choice) to any tests performed with the deck".
The cyberprogram is only unbalanced if you rule that it "increases the cyberdeck's Sleaze attribute between 1 and 5 (user’s choice) to any tests performed with the deck and any test performed against the deck using the program".
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Um no, can't say I agree with that. No other program comes close to smoke and mirrors for what it can do, especially since noise reduction just got cheap and easy.
See several dockers on this site who 'only' need this program to make a com link into a mid deck for sleaze or the guys who 22-24 dice at character to avoid being noticed.
Show me a reasonable counter argument involving ANY other program. Closest are virtual machine or fork but they aren't in the same league for power and 1 has a real downside and other very nitch.
For me programs seem supposed to be nice boosts not game breaking or archetype enablers