I really liked the Druids in the 4th edition magic book. i had a Celtic druid character with a magic lodge that was miniature stonehenge in the back yard. ;D
I love the Norse Tradition. Had the group run into a Free Valkyrie once that they had to recruit. When the Spirit demanded a million nuyen and their commlinks immediately buzzed "deal", they swallowed hard.
I think I remember a developer mentioning, that in the upcoming, now current version of Shadowrun, there should have been a greater distinction between the different traditions.
Personally, Shaman just feels "better" to me from a power-gamey perspective. It's possible to build a Shadowrunner with no Logic-based skills. Every Shadowrunner out there, however, is going to benefit from a good dice pool for things like Con and Etiquette.
The Logic-based skills; mechanics, demolitions, first aid, etc. are nice to have on a team, but something a shadowrunning team can do without. A guy who can't lie to a cop, though, is going to be dead weight in a lot of situations. I really only make a hermetic mage when I have compelling background reasons to do so for the character in mind, or for when I'm planning on getting some cerebral boosters (which I don't think is a really practical path, so that comes down to a flavor thing, too).
Yes, charisma is a better skill stat than logic. Logic has more skills, but most of them are either not high value or tied to another archetype so you wont really be using them much.Arcana was a Logic stat in 4E. Spellcasting (standard or ritual) and counterspelling doesn't touch the mental attributes until drain (when they're effectively equal for comparison consideration). Summoning is really the only thing that's very heavy in charisma. Astral Combat is and was Willpower.
Then in the great design fail of 5e and to a lesser extent 4e charisma just does a shit ton more for magic than logic. Every single thing in magic that is tied to an attribute is charisma based. Hell even arcana the freaking study of magic got switched to magic because shamans might not be perfect.
The biggie that keeps getting overlooked is in the defenses and pre-run usefulness.
Plenty of spells are defended using Logic. All your wireless items are, too - do you want to be That Guy who let the corporate security crack their commlink so they could overhear all the plans?
Charisma is good for facework and drain, certainly, but that shaman is also going to be the one who reveals your locations to security when they mark his commlink and trace his location, then is the one to fireball the rest of you when the wagemage takes over his feeble and puny illogical mind. Not to mention how useless they are when it comes time for non-face legwork with their low low knowledge skills and low arcana. "Hey shaman, what do you know that could help us out?" "Uh, I like the Earth?" "Wow, super useful! Hey mage, you got anything?" "I'm basically a walking encyclopedia when it comes to absolutely everything that could ever involve magic." "Well how about that, a thing we can use!"
In my experience, to add to this, shaman tend to put all their eggs in one basket - yeah, charisma goes sky high, but will lags behind a bit. Hermetics on the other hand I notice tend to go more equal on will and logic and end up with better defenses all around. It also gives dwarves a decent niche.
The biggie that keeps getting overlooked is in the defenses and pre-run usefulness.
Plenty of spells are defended using Logic. All your wireless items are, too - do you want to be That Guy who let the corporate security crack their commlink so they could overhear all the plans?
Charisma is good for facework and drain, certainly, but that shaman is also going to be the one who reveals your locations to security when they mark his commlink and trace his location, then is the one to fireball the rest of you when the wagemage takes over his feeble and puny illogical mind. Not to mention how useless they are when it comes time for non-face legwork with their low low knowledge skills and low arcana. "Hey shaman, what do you know that could help us out?" "Uh, I like the Earth?" "Wow, super useful! Hey mage, you got anything?" "I'm basically a walking encyclopedia when it comes to absolutely everything that could ever involve magic." "Well how about that, a thing we can use!"
In my experience, to add to this, shaman tend to put all their eggs in one basket - yeah, charisma goes sky high, but will lags behind a bit. Hermetics on the other hand I notice tend to go more equal on will and logic and end up with better defenses all around. It also gives dwarves a decent niche.
The biggie that keeps getting overlooked is in the defenses and pre-run usefulness.
Plenty of spells are defended using Logic. All your wireless items are, too - do you want to be That Guy who let the corporate security crack their commlink so they could overhear all the plans?
Charisma is good for facework and drain, certainly, but that shaman is also going to be the one who reveals your locations to security when they mark his commlink and trace his location, then is the one to fireball the rest of you when the wagemage takes over his feeble and puny illogical mind. Not to mention how useless they are when it comes time for non-face legwork with their low low knowledge skills and low arcana. "Hey shaman, what do you know that could help us out?" "Uh, I like the Earth?" "Wow, super useful! Hey mage, you got anything?" "I'm basically a walking encyclopedia when it comes to absolutely everything that could ever involve magic." "Well how about that, a thing we can use!"
In my experience, to add to this, shaman tend to put all their eggs in one basket - yeah, charisma goes sky high, but will lags behind a bit. Hermetics on the other hand I notice tend to go more equal on will and logic and end up with better defenses all around. It also gives dwarves a decent niche.
I mean, it's not like we live in 2075 and can justgooogledata search stuff, right? Besides, facing skills are usually used more often than magical knowledge. And also make more impact than magical knowledge.
There are plenty of charisma defense tests in the game as well.The hermetic ends up with 6-8 more skill points in knowledge skills which is something, but not altogether that massive. On a side note I've never seen a shaman go low/average on willpower. It might not be 5 because you only have so many points but it generally seems to be as high as hermetics take it.
It isn't just more skills, it's also better. Pretty much all the magic based skills would be academic ones (unless you can find a way to explain why your knowledge of spirits and magical tradition fall into hobbies ;)). As far as will goes, most hermetics I've seen are dwarves, so they tend to cap Will instead of Logic - Will 7, Logic 5. Funny enough, going dwarf could also give you rather ample charisma, or at least ample enough that you can have a healthy enough stable of spirits yourself.
Look, I'm not saying Hermetic is better, and I'm not sure why people seem to be thinking this save this forum's weird obsession with needing ONE RIGHT POST ONE WRONG POST. I'm saying that Hermetic has a bunch of advantages that tend to get ignored.
Cram + psyche are good for mage too. And with high logic, you can easily beat the addiction test.
Psyche isn't a problem, really. It's got a Rating of 6, so 5 weeks time. At Threshold 2, you'd have to use it in week 1, 3 AND 5 to risk addiction. How often is that going to happen? Cram has a rating of 4 so 7 weeks, but a threshold of 3 so we're talking week 1/4/7 to face a test. But let's say you use a lot but game the system enough so you only face a threshold of 1. As Psychological, you likely have 11 dice, that's 2048/177147 odds, ~1/86. So once every two~three runs you'd take a test at those odds, which means you have an average of 200 runs or so under your belt when you fail it once.
That's not possible, since you ONLY roll at the end of week 5 (Psyche) or 7 (Cram), so it'd take you at least 3 runs (or less if you got a run spanning 3+ weeks) before that happens.Psyche isn't a problem, really. It's got a Rating of 6, so 5 weeks time. At Threshold 2, you'd have to use it in week 1, 3 AND 5 to risk addiction. How often is that going to happen? Cram has a rating of 4 so 7 weeks, but a threshold of 3 so we're talking week 1/4/7 to face a test. But let's say you use a lot but game the system enough so you only face a threshold of 1. As Psychological, you likely have 11 dice, that's 2048/177147 odds, ~1/86. So once every two~three runs you'd take a test at those odds, which means you have an average of 200 runs or so under your belt when you fail it once.
Or, blow your first roll and be on the way to addiction in week 1. :D
Hey, with the hundreds of rolls a player has to make during the course of a single run, odds say, that even "sure things" are going to end in outright failure eventually, yet we still come back to the table for more dice abuse the next week"That which cannot occur through happenstance will not occur through intent."
I wouldn't allow a player to Edge their way out of an Addiction test.
Now lie in it, to die in it's the crime. Speaking of crimes: What DOES your avatar read?
Be glad it ain't a cute little Tibetan Mastiff pup, because those turn into this:MOUSE!
http://imgur.com/4K61Z1S
Be glad it ain't a cute little Tibetan Mastiff pup, because those turn into this:MOUSE!
http://imgur.com/4K61Z1S
Why on Earth would you disallow a player to use Edge on his Addiction test? Unless you're using Missions rules, which require you to buy hits on "permanent" effects and anything that occurs in downtime, I see absolutely no reason not to allow one of my players to use the resources at his disposal for the benefit of his character...I see 2 possible reasons: because addiction tests are too easily cheesed otherwise (if you allow Edge, you're already 80%-90% down the slope towards "allow them to them buy hits"), and because there is already a precedent for not allowing Edge on some tests:
This counts as the culmination of all your work over the days, so you can’t use Edge for this test.Besides, the only instances where a player cannot avoid an Addiction Test are Jazz (TH 1, both), Kamikaze (TH 2, mental), Nitro (TH 2, both) and Tripchip BTLs (TH 1). Meanwhile, Cram still gives +1D6 Initiative Dice, lasts longer, is cheaper, and can be used 4 weeks in a row followed by a 3-week cooldown without ever having to do an Addiction Test.
I'm fine with you having a preference, but I'd prefer it if you could try to not come across as belittling my opinion when stating yours.Quick FYI: when you use "no reason to" to describe someone else's preference, you also come across a bit as belittling their opinion.
Shinobi
I disagree wholeheartedly with that statement on the simple basis that you're stating it as fact rather than opinion, even when that opinion clearly goes against the rules. Disallowing the use of edge on Addiction tests is not the rule, rather it is a choice some CMs choose to make; as such, I believe that allowing the use of Edge on Addiction test is staying within the intention of the designers who created the ruleset, and not "handwaving" anything.
I'm fine with you having a preference, but I'd prefer it if you could try to not come across as belittling my opinion when stating yours.
The difference being that I clearly stated a personal preference applying to me abd my table only, whereas others have made sweeping statements that seemingly apply to everyone.Yet that is not how your post came across to me - an example of my point that thinking the other side is making sweeping statements because of the way they phrased their personal opinion works both ways.
as such, I believe that allowing the use of Edge on Addiction test is staying within the intention of the designers who created the ruleset, and not "handwaving" anything.As such, maybe talk to said writer! I'm right here!
Shadowrun: Brony Edition, why are you even using the addiction rules? Let's get Pinkie Pie loaded on Novacoke, Betameth, and Long Haul and see how long the party can last! ;D
<in a high pitched brony voice>Then why is my drug book selling so well? *Evil GM Laugh*
"Nooo-ooo Canray! Drugs are baaad!!!"
Half-past never. The IP negotiations alone would make Toxic Shamans think they've gone insane.Shadowrun: Brony Edition, why are you even using the addiction rules? Let's get Pinkie Pie loaded on Novacoke, Betameth, and Long Haul and see how long the party can last! ;DOh - can we please get an ETA for the Brony edition? I think I need that ASAP.
Then why is my drug book selling so well? *Evil GM Laugh*
Then why is my drug book selling so well? *Evil GM Laugh*
*Waits for the DEA to pay CanRay a 'visit!' ;D
they can't.
Canray is a Canuck.
The best they can do is drool from the border, like a dog staring at a steak....
sides, I hear they have their hands full in Oregon and Washington state....
they can't.
Canray is a Canuck.
The best they can do is drool from the border, like a dog staring at a steak....
sides, I hear they have their hands full in Oregon and Washington state....
Curses! Foiled by those pesky borders and international treaty...thingies...!
I'm all for Edge being used on the addiction test.
Just make the addiction test something that happens during the run when they pop that popper! :D
...These forums need some sorta evil smiley.
Because the rules state you take it after a while, which gives you the chance to not over-use and take it easy, wearing the threshold down to doable levels. If you had to take an addiction test on a very addictive drug directly, then it'd become a VERY fast character-demolisher for any character that's not packed to the gills on the resistance attributes.
ok ok. I sorta get that. But shouldn't drugs be awful? Honestly, I'd rather not even play with them in the game. Personal preference. But since they are part of the game, make people check during use. Also, won't be any addiction checks for things like foci and stuff. That's silly in my campaign world. :)And that's your preference. Drugs have been a part of Cyberpunk for a long, long time (Case from Neuromancer was tripping through a few parts of Neuromancer, for instance), so they're included, but like everything else it is up to the group to decide what they want to work with and what they don't.
ok ok. I sorta get that. But shouldn't drugs be awful? Honestly, I'd rather not even play with them in the game. Personal preference. But since they are part of the game, make people check during use. Also, won't be any addiction checks for things like foci and stuff. That's silly in my campaign world. :)Some drugs come with after-effects though. For example, Cram makes you take damage when it wars off, Jazz disorients you, and so on. Psyche is pretty much the only drug without penalties during or after use, aside from the behaviour impact. And Jazz&Nitro pretty much come without a chance to avoid all addiction tests.
Some drugs come with after-effects though. For example, Cram makes you take damage when it wars off, Jazz disorients you, and so on. Psyche is pretty much the only drug without penalties during or after use, aside from the behaviour impact. And Jazz&Nitro pretty much come without a chance to avoid all addiction tests.Also exceptionally good reasons. "Everything Has A Price".
And I actually quite like addiction checks for people using more Focus Rating than their Magic Rating at the same time. It's one of the balancing factors in foci use, for starters. It also only kicks in at high Foci amounts AND, unless your mage constantly overdoes it, will only matter at Force 9+ in total active at the same time.
Some drugs come with after-effects though. For example, Cram makes you take damage when it wars off, Jazz disorients you, and so on. Psyche is pretty much the only drug without penalties during or after use, aside from the behaviour impact. And Jazz&Nitro pretty much come without a chance to avoid all addiction tests.Also exceptionally good reasons. "Everything Has A Price".
And I actually quite like addiction checks for people using more Focus Rating than their Magic Rating at the same time. It's one of the balancing factors in foci use, for starters. It also only kicks in at high Foci amounts AND, unless your mage constantly overdoes it, will only matter at Force 9+ in total active at the same time.
In my games as GM, I'd probably allow Edge to be used on Addiction Tests, but then the Edge doesn't come back until the addiction kicks in, or the drug is no longer used. It still lets people get lucky, but reminds them not to push their luck.
*Cough* "In my games as GM..."See, this sounds like the very definition of "things I don't want to worry about keeping track of".Some drugs come with after-effects though. For example, Cram makes you take damage when it wars off, Jazz disorients you, and so on. Psyche is pretty much the only drug without penalties during or after use, aside from the behaviour impact. And Jazz&Nitro pretty much come without a chance to avoid all addiction tests.Also exceptionally good reasons. "Everything Has A Price".
And I actually quite like addiction checks for people using more Focus Rating than their Magic Rating at the same time. It's one of the balancing factors in foci use, for starters. It also only kicks in at high Foci amounts AND, unless your mage constantly overdoes it, will only matter at Force 9+ in total active at the same time.
In my games as GM, I'd probably allow Edge to be used on Addiction Tests, but then the Edge doesn't come back until the addiction kicks in, or the drug is no longer used. It still lets people get lucky, but reminds them not to push their luck.
*Cough* "In my games as GM..."See, this sounds like the very definition of "things I don't want to worry about keeping track of".Some drugs come with after-effects though. For example, Cram makes you take damage when it wars off, Jazz disorients you, and so on. Psyche is pretty much the only drug without penalties during or after use, aside from the behaviour impact. And Jazz&Nitro pretty much come without a chance to avoid all addiction tests.Also exceptionally good reasons. "Everything Has A Price".
And I actually quite like addiction checks for people using more Focus Rating than their Magic Rating at the same time. It's one of the balancing factors in foci use, for starters. It also only kicks in at high Foci amounts AND, unless your mage constantly overdoes it, will only matter at Force 9+ in total active at the same time.
In my games as GM, I'd probably allow Edge to be used on Addiction Tests, but then the Edge doesn't come back until the addiction kicks in, or the drug is no longer used. It still lets people get lucky, but reminds them not to push their luck.
One size does not fit all.
And I actually quite like addiction checks for people using more Focus Rating than their Magic Rating at the same time. It's one of the balancing factors in foci use, for starters. It also only kicks in at high Foci amounts AND, unless your mage constantly overdoes it, will only matter at Force 9+ in total active at the same time.In totaled Force? That could mean that mages are only using 2 foci (F4 sustaining focus, F3 spellcasting/power focus topping what a Magic 7 individual can handle without addiction tests) at once. Or are you talking about only N foci active at a time, where N <= Logic?
In Totaled Force, which makes Power Foci and Quickening quite interesting choices. It's almost-explicit in the rules.And I actually quite like addiction checks for people using more Focus Rating than their Magic Rating at the same time. It's one of the balancing factors in foci use, for starters. It also only kicks in at high Foci amounts AND, unless your mage constantly overdoes it, will only matter at Force 9+ in total active at the same time.In totaled Force? That could mean that mages are only using 2 foci (F4 sustaining focus, F3 spellcasting/power focus topping what a Magic 7 individual can handle without addiction tests) at once. Or are you talking about only N foci active at a time, where N <= Logic?
And I actually quite like addiction checks for people using more Focus Rating than their Magic Rating at the same time. It's one of the balancing factors in foci use, for starters. It also only kicks in at high Foci amounts AND, unless your mage constantly overdoes it, will only matter at Force 9+ in total active at the same time.In totaled Force? That could mean that mages are only using 2 foci (F4 sustaining focus, F3 spellcasting/power focus topping what a Magic 7 individual can handle without addiction tests) at once. Or are you talking about only N foci active at a time, where N <= Logic?
You're making some leaps I don't quite follow, I'm afraid. Why would they specifically use an F4 sustaining focus and an F3 spellcasting/power focus? There's lots of other foci combinations they could use.And I actually quite like addiction checks for people using more Focus Rating than their Magic Rating at the same time. It's one of the balancing factors in foci use, for starters. It also only kicks in at high Foci amounts AND, unless your mage constantly overdoes it, will only matter at Force 9+ in total active at the same time.In totaled Force? That could mean that mages are only using 2 foci (F4 sustaining focus, F3 spellcasting/power focus topping what a Magic 7 individual can handle without addiction tests) at once. Or are you talking about only N foci active at a time, where N <= Logic?
Typically, it’s not a danger as long as the total Force of your active foci isn’t greater than your Magic rating.
Substance Addiction Rating Addiction Threshold Focus Addiction total Force of all active foci 2
Be glad it ain't a cute little Tibetan Mastiff pup, because those turn into this:
http://imgur.com/4K61Z1S
Hermetic - Logic based Magicians are useful for a few roles I've found.
1. Doctor
2. Back up Decker
3. Troll
But yeah, as a whole, none of that is as common is the whole Shaman/Face/Elf combo.
that'd be interesting. finding the cash for that might be tight at chargen thoughHermetic - Logic based Magicians are useful for a few roles I've found.
1. Doctor
2. Back up Decker
3. Troll
But yeah, as a whole, none of that is as common is the whole Shaman/Face/Elf combo.
Another option: Drone rigger.
Another option: Drone rigger.I freely admit I'm not up on my rigging, but, wouldn't the essence cost for a VCR be bad for a magician ?
Another option: Drone rigger.I freely admit I'm not up on my rigging, but, wouldn't the essence cost for a VCR be bad for a magician ?
Sure ,but the control rig is only needed to jump in; I specified drone rigger as the notion is that this character wouldn't jumpp in.Okay, so a guy at a terminal. Like I said, I'm not up on "rigging" at all.
Be glad it ain't a cute little Tibetan Mastiff pup, because those turn into this:Dependent - Dog With size determining cost.
http://imgur.com/4K61Z1S
From a thematic stand point, the influx of Elven Shamans seems incorrect. Traditionally, from classic SR stories and history -- Elves have always been hermetic in nature. Elven culture from both Tir's has always focused on Elves using science and logic for their magic rather then charisma and shaman magic.You identified the main problem here: The mechanics don't align with the theme. Why would elves choose to focus on hermetic magic? Why wouldn't they utilize their natural force of personality, which they can identify in-game (at least at a qualitative level), in their dealings with the astral? At a certain point wouldn't shamanic elven traditions pop up, then slowly begin to dominate, as a consequence of the way magic actually works?
Shaman magic has always been reserved for native American nations, Jamaican influence, in essence other cultures that have always had some type of spiritual or religious reasoning behind them in relation to spirits, demons, and dieties.
From a statistical point of view, having an influx of Elf Shamans makes total sense due to the natural charisma boost. But there is something about having an heavy increase in elf shamans that seems 'Un-Shadowrun' from a thematic sense.
From a thematic stand point, the influx of Elven Shamans seems incorrect. Traditionally, from classic SR stories and history -- Elves have always been hermetic in nature. Elven culture from both Tir's has always focused on Elves using science and logic for their magic rather then charisma and shaman magic.This might be missing the forest for the trees - in other words, I'd say there are plenty of elves that came from Shamanic-type cultures, like Amerind, Jamaican, African religion, etc.
Shaman magic has always been reserved for native American nations, Jamaican influence, in essence other cultures that have always had some type of spiritual or religious reasoning behind them in relation to spirits, demons, and dieties.
From a statistical point of view, having an influx of Elf Shamans makes total sense due to the natural charisma boost. But there is something about having an heavy increase in elf shamans that seems 'Un-Shadowrun' from a thematic sense.
From a thematic stand point, the influx of Elven Shamans seems incorrect. Traditionally, from classic SR stories and history -- Elves have always been hermetic in nature. Elven culture from both Tir's has always focused on Elves using science and logic for their magic rather then charisma and shaman magic.I think it's just not min-maxed, there's nothing necessarily thematically wrong about it. The idea of an old line of science (or magic) relying on logic (which by parts of its definition can be recorded and passed down) would have an advantage over a more intuition/charisma 'abstract force of will' focus which would not have such an advantage.
From a statistical point of view, having an influx of Elf Shamans makes total sense due to the natural charisma boost. But there is something about having an heavy increase in elf shamans that seems 'Un-Shadowrun' from a thematic sense.
Elven culture from both Tir's has always focused on Elves using science and logic for their magic rather then charisma and shaman magic.
Just wait until the Street Grimoire hits, and people will start picking other ones.I've ported stuff from 4e pretty easily for a game, including Guardian and Plant spirits. Really wanted to play an Azzie elf nahauilli.
@Mithlas, Whiskey Jack, Goodbye Sober Day -- I am mostly going off Shadowrun Cannon, and the FASA Shadowrun novels. Most of the Elves in the older stories were mostly hermedic mages. Hart, Laverty, Ehran, Kylar Luppas, Meyer (Headhunters), (Dragon Heart Trilogy), even Harlequin.
I can't remember many elves that were based off the shamanic traditions.
@Whisky -- That type of magic would he druidic in nature or Path of the Wheel like RHAT mentioned, not Shamanistic.
It just seems like every elf mage made on these boards is a shaman, and traditionally that has not fit the Elven archtype of a mage in the SR universe. I just dont' see an elf walking around with totem based foci, or with the attire of a shaman. I do however seem them more thematically dressed or fitting the them of a hermetic.
I hope elf shamans do not become a watered down, over used archtype.