Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Dakka on <01-30-14/1416:39>
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An Ares Light Fire 75 sports an internal smartlink and the special Light Fire silencer as part of it's 1,250 cost. The Light Fire 70 is cheap as hell tho, and in the description you can buy the silencer for it for 750. It also has 1 more accuracy than the 75. All this means for 200 (gun) + 200 (internal smartgun) + 750 (silencer) = 1,150 nuyen you can have a Light Fire 70 that is A) not Forbidden availability 2) Costs 100 less than the 75 and C) has 1 more accuracy than the 75. So why does Ares make a handgun for it's security personnel and other military contracts that is inferior to the commercial model?
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I didn't get that either, although I always assumed the F legality rating for the 75 was due to the silencer.
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It's possible, considering a normal silencer is Forbidden, but even still, Light Fire 75 seems to be made of fail.
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The Light Fire 70 with it's silencer attachment is still only Restricted. Also, for whatever reason the 75 is less accurate and more expensive than the 70.
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So even though all other silencers are illegal due to what they do, the Ares brand silencer is not? I don't think that makes a lot of sense, but whatever works in your game.
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It's not explicitly stated, so by the RAW it doesn't change the legality. If you want to rule that it does it's your call.
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So even though all other silencers are illegal due to what they do, the Ares brand silencer is not? I don't think that makes a lot of sense, but whatever works in your game.
That happens a lot, actually. I think it's intended. For instance, the GM-Nissan Doberman has a weapon mount and is Restricted despite weapon mounts being completely illegal, and it's been that way in the previous editions.
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The Ingram X also has an integral suppressor and is Restricted.
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As does the HK, but those are also less-concealable weapons. From looking through 5e, I can't find any pistols that have silencers that are not F, which makes sense as they are generally easy to hide.
WRT to the Doberman, it's a standard accessory like the above weapons having supressors. Or cyberdecks coming with hot-sim modules as standard components (the description even laughably says illegal hot-sim mods when the rating is R) while the hot-sim module on a commlink is illegal.
It depends on the application. In my opinion (and how I would rule) silencers for pistols are illegal in all applications.
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It's possible (and just not written) that the silencer on the 75 is integral, whereas the silencer for the 70 is not. That would change concealability and portability quite a bit.
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The silencer on the 75 is integral. I don't think the 70 is given that it is available at an additional cost.
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integral as in can also accept a barrel mount accessory? Being able to put a silencer and a gas vent 3 on the same light pistol would be worth 100 extra nuyen. The description of the Light Fire 75 mentions the silencer is barrel mounted tho.
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Read to the end of the description, it's then explicitly mentioned as integral. I'm going with that...
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As in previous editions, integral upgrades are built into the hardware of the gun. An integral smartlink is built into the guts of the gun, whereas an integral silencer is built into the barrel. This would mean that other accessories can be built into the gun as well. Gun capacity is something handled in the Arsenal book in 4th edition, and it will probably be handled in Run & Gun for 5th edition.
To answer your immediate question though, yes you can add Recoil Compensation to a gun with an integral silencer.
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Read to the end of the description, it's then explicitly mentioned as integral. I'm going with that...
As in previous editions, integral upgrades are built into the hardware of the gun.
Just to put a reference to this;
Integral accessories (those that come with the weapon) don’t take up mount locations.
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It's important to note than due to how the real world technology of gas vents and silencers work, they are diametrically opposed. A gun could not realistically work with both mods on. The gas vents try to expel as much gas as possible in controlled vectors to reduce recoil whereas the silencer tries to contain as much gas as possible to silence the gunshot. Even if RAW allows it, physics doesn't.
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It's important to note than due to how the real world technology of gas vents and silencers work, they are diametrically opposed. A gun could not realistically work with both mods on. The gas vents try to expel as much gas as possible in controlled vectors to reduce recoil whereas the silencer tries to contain as much gas as possible to silence the gunshot. Even if RAW allows it, physics doesn't.
A) This is a science fiction game.
B) This is fiction.
C) Lots of things in Shadowrun break physics. Because it's fiction.
D) Technomancers and Mages can't exist according to physics. Good thing Shadowrun is fiction.
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GasVent vs. integral silencer was already discussed in relation to the ISX. I think most posters concluded that you can have both you just can't use both for the same shot.
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Not me, though. I believe that with the change in recoil balance, having both is no longer a horrid gamebreaking thing. So whether they work together we cannot know for sure until Run&Gun is out.
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It's important to note than due to how the real world technology of gas vents and silencers work, they are diametrically opposed. A gun could not realistically work with both mods on. The gas vents try to expel as much gas as possible in controlled vectors to reduce recoil whereas the silencer tries to contain as much gas as possible to silence the gunshot. Even if RAW allows it, physics doesn't.
A) This is a science fiction game.
B) This is fiction.
C) Lots of things in Shadowrun break physics. Because it's fiction.
D) Technomancers and Mages can't exist according to physics. Good thing Shadowrun is fiction.
And yet, things like gravity, electricity, and magnetism still exist. Even though magic/techno isn't real, the magic/techno in Shadowrun still follows its own set of rules and boundaries, a large part of what physics is in the universe. Everything in Shadowrun does. If someone used a sustaining focus to cast a higher level combat spell someone would point out magic doesn't work that way. If someone added SnS rounds to an assault rifle for a bonus of -7 AP someone would point out armour piercing doesn't work that way. If someone used physical attribute points to add to their special attributes during character creation, someone would point out it doesn't work that way. And if someone is going to add a gas vent to their silenced weapon because they think they work together, I'm going to point out it doesn't work that way. Even if it's a fantasy world you;re creating, if you're going to base it off the real world, you might want to get the real world right.
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Guns in Shadowrun have never followed real world logic. The Slivergun is a perfect example, but other things like an Ares Alpha somehow having 2 RC innate that no other gun has, or the Ingram's suppressor/gas vent combo are illogical at best but are fine as RAW in a made up fantasy game.
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The Slivergun uses something that is described as akin to flechette rounds, which do in fact exist modern day, the Ares Alpha apparently has some sort of specially designed barrel (Heavier perhaps? Who knows, that one is kind of handwavium), and the Ingram is most likely just an oversight of real world physics. If guns in Shadowrun don't follow real world logic then that's just a bigger argument that they should, in fact, be paying more attention to real world technology when they build something out of it.
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The slivergun uses very small slivers. They're not flechettes, they only use the same rules for damage and various spreads. The weapon isn't a shotgun, can't fire slugs but it can be suppressed.
Shotguns use flechette. Flechettes today are pretty much the "AP version" of shot rounds.
Actual shot rounds are written to be completely ineffective against 21st century armor and so are long forgotten.
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The Slivergun uses something that is described as akin to flechette rounds, which do in fact exist modern day, the Ares Alpha apparently has some sort of specially designed barrel (Heavier perhaps? Who knows, that one is kind of handwavium), and the Ingram is most likely just an oversight of real world physics. If guns in Shadowrun don't follow real world logic then that's just a bigger argument that they should, in fact, be paying more attention to real world technology when they build something out of it.
The Slivergun is literally a fantasy creation, it shaves chunks off a block of (something) to fire and can be suppressed. There is nothing currently like that in the real world, though who knows about 35 years from now (it has existed in the same form since SR1 set in 2050). It's just a legacy holdover that makes no sense but doesn't really negatively impact the balance of the game world.
The Ingram has actually been changed through the editions to have the integral Gas Vent and Suppressor at the same time, so by RAW they both work the concurrently unless otherwise stated officially. It's just a Snowflake Gun like the Slivergun, Alpha, and UFRC which needs a big old nerf.
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I didn't know that about the Slivergun. The fifth edition book just says it fires ammunition similar to flechette rounds. And I know that gas vents and silencers work together by RAW, I already mentioned that. I simply pointed out that they shouldn't and some GMs may rule as such.
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Yes logically they shouldn't work together, but Shadowrun doesn't follow logic. However, who knows what futuretech may bring, in 50 years there may be a breakthrough in suppressor/venting tech.
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Yes logically they shouldn't work together, but Shadowrun doesn't follow logic. However, who knows what futuretech may bring, in 50 years there may be a breakthrough in suppressor/venting tech.
This would require a breakthrough in physics, but I'm happy to handwave some of the stranger aspects of Shadowrun physics. I don't want to open the can of worms again, but I feel like it's worth reminding people a few things. Shadowrun editors have a history of using the words "integral" and "internal" interchangeably. If all integral accessories don't take up a slot, you can end up with guns with two shock pads and/or two folding stocks. Furthermore, it makes the fact that many of the item descriptions specify exactly where the accessory is ("barrel-mounted-gas-vent 2") seem like a bizarre layout decision.
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as always common sense applies to rules, nobody thinks you can mount two stocks etc :)
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Yes logically they shouldn't work together, but Shadowrun doesn't follow logic. However, who knows what futuretech may bring, in 50 years there may be a breakthrough in suppressor/venting tech.
This would require a breakthrough in physics, but I'm happy to handwave some of the stranger aspects of Shadowrun physics. I don't want to open the can of worms again, but I feel like it's worth reminding people a few things. Shadowrun editors have a history of using the words "integral" and "internal" interchangeably. If all integral accessories don't take up a slot, you can end up with guns with two shock pads and/or two folding stocks. Furthermore, it makes the fact that many of the item descriptions specify exactly where the accessory is ("barrel-mounted-gas-vent 2") seem like a bizarre layout decision.
SR is in dire need of term standardization, but it'd probably not going to happen.
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as always common sense applies to rules, nobody thinks you can mount two stocks etc :)
Imagine the recoil reduction if you could mount a dozen tripods.
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Yes logically they shouldn't work together, but Shadowrun doesn't follow logic. However, who knows what futuretech may bring, in 50 years there may be a breakthrough in suppressor/venting tech.
This would require a breakthrough in physics, but I'm happy to handwave some of the stranger aspects of Shadowrun physics. I don't want to open the can of worms again, but I feel like it's worth reminding people a few things. Shadowrun editors have a history of using the words "integral" and "internal" interchangeably. If all integral accessories don't take up a slot, you can end up with guns with two shock pads and/or two folding stocks. Furthermore, it makes the fact that many of the item descriptions specify exactly where the accessory is ("barrel-mounted-gas-vent 2") seem like a bizarre layout decision.
SR is in dire need of term standardization, but it'd probably not going to happen.
Yea i can agree with this yet there are lot of things that bug me about shadow... Wait were talking about the ares light fire 75? Look all pistols are in a word useless but thats not why pepole use them it more of a backup weapons if your assult rifle jams your lmg ran out of ammo and you are not magical and even then this thing seems useless so yea i agree.
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It's not much, but even if you can't figure out a use for an Ares Lightfire yourself, the 70 does pop up in Vice's "Most Popular Controlled Substances". (guns & armour, not drugs)
Presumably the 75 isn't that hard to move, either. ::)
On the topic of Supressors / Gas Vents vs multiple Stocks; I don't think it's just common sense, but also common knowledge that's important. If it seriously bothers you, you're probably above the 'common' line on the latter.
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The LF75 isn't really meant to be sold in your local gun store, which probably explains the price hike and availability all on its own. However, it's probably the one you'll see more in the hands of Hard Corps and their ilk. I don't really see a problem.
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Keeping in mind that there is sixty years of R&D between now and SR, I don't think it's impossible to believe that suppressors and gas vents would be able to work together (or even be the same attachment). While the traditional suppressor traps gasses and releases them slowly, there are multiple current lines of work trying to different approaches.
For a gas vent working with a suppressor, the most promising avenue would probably be frequency shifting, known more commonly as "dog whistle" silencers. Instead of trapping, cooling, and slowly releasing the gasses, it channels the gasses out through precision drilled holes that shift the frequency of sound to something beyond the normal human range. Of course, it would be audible to anyone hearing in that frequency, but normal suppressors are also audible o\in certain frequencies as well.
That said, gas vents can also work very similar to how the AN-94 is designed. Just because the gas is being vented, doesn't mean that it has to leave the gun to be effective. Modern technology is marvelous, half a century from now's technology should seem magical.
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Keeping in mind that there is sixty years of R&D between now and SR, I don't think it's impossible to believe that suppressors and gas vents would be able to work together (or even be the same attachment)
The problem isn't that sixty years between now and SR, but the 4 years between SR4a and SR5. It wasn't allowed to use both in SR4.
Under Accumulative Recoil with 1 IP needed to reset recoil, however, there's no harm in letting them combine. Under the errata, however, it definitely should be outlawed again.
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I disagree completely. As you mentioned, recoil is handled completely differently in SR 5, so the effects of Gas Vents are different than they were in SR 4. It's not a huge difference, but it is noticeable.
On top of that, four years is still enough time for R&D to make progress. It's not like the R&D has only taken four years to work out, but it can finally have paid off. Perhaps someone finally reverse engineered the Ingram Smartgun.
On another note, as far as the Light Fire 75 vs. Light Fire 70 goes. The 70 does not have an integral silencer available. It is an accessory silencer. The text does not change the legality of the silencer, which is 9F. The only thing changed about this special silencer is the cost (+50%) and the benefit (additional -1).
Keep in mind, that if the text is different than the Light Fire 70 (it mentions an additional -1, but it does mention the specific numbers -4 and -5 like the Light Fire 70). If the new book works similar to the old book, the integral silencers may be better than mounted silencers. That would make the Light Fire 75 much better (I don't have books with me, but in SR4 I believe the integral silencers where two points higher in hearing penalties).
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I disagree completely. As you mentioned, recoil is handled completely differently in SR 5, so the effects of Gas Vents are different than they were in SR 4. It's not a huge difference, but it is noticeable.
Players need less Recoil Compensation in SR5 than in SR4 since they only get 1 Attack Action per IP, and get 1 more natural Recoil Compensation at the least. So you need to score an additional 4, not 8, for optimal firing. With that Gas Vent 3 and a Shockpad, everyone already hits that.
So under the errata, where you can throw out 6-round full-automatic bursts each IP without recoil actually accumulating, I disagree with you that it's completely different. The only difference is that in SR5 under the errata it's even easier to manage RC. As such, under the errata, I do not believe it to be fair to have them combine.
Now if you houserule that you need an entire non-shooting Action Phase to reset Recoil, then yes I believe it's no more than fair to have them combine.
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In all reality, it should be that easy to compensate for recoil in the future. Look at modern weapons compared to old weapons. A .45 (.45 ACP, 1904), .357 (.357 Magnum, 1934), or even a 9mm (9x19mm Parabellum, 1904) all would make sense to have decent recoil, mostly from perception rather than reality. However modern ammunitions like the FN 5.7 (5.7x28mm, 1990) and HK 4.6 (4.6x30mm, 1999) have very little recoil in comparison.
As for balance, I don't see the issue. Shadowrun is lethal. It really always has been. In my opinion SR 4 was the least lethal edition, but they stated at one point that SR 5 was supposed to be more lethal. Keeping in mind that it's supposed to be lethal, I'm not seeing the problem. All it's doing is forcing people to think tactically, which isn't a bad thing.
Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks like you still need 8 recoil comp to completely comp a gun for one Action Phase. 4 is only going to compensate for Long Bursts or Simple Full Auto. Additional recoil comp is needed to fire complex Full auto for extended amounts of time.
You're arguing optimal firing, but optimal firing has changed drastically from SR 4. Six rounds compared to nine in SR 4. Smart characters were always firing compensated to begin with. So yes, they need less recoil to put out weaker attacks/less bullets per action phase. It's all already balanced.
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Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks like you still need 8 recoil comp to completely comp a gun for one Action Phase. 4 is only going to compensate for Long Bursts or Simple Full Auto. Additional recoil comp is needed to fire complex Full auto for extended amounts of time.
You only need 4 extra RC to keep firing 6 rounds per IP without ever suffering from recoil. Firing 10 rounds isn't optimal firing, because it's not a rate of fire you can keep throwing out there. Firing 6 rounds per IP is optimal firing, and there is no point in modding a gun just so that you can fire 10 rounds in only a single IP of battle.
If you want to further debate the balance of recoil, you may want to properly check out the actual numbers and join in on the recoil debate in the topics about it, though. My sole point for this topic is that with players needing 4 less Recoil Compensation than in SR4, there is no need to make using that Gas Vent not come at the price of not running silent. Claiming that the difference in recoil means that Gas Vents should now stack, when the need for RC has actually drastically reduced due to the errata, is not a claim I can consider valid given the evidence.
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Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks like you still need 8 recoil comp to completely comp a gun for one Action Phase. 4 is only going to compensate for Long Bursts or Simple Full Auto. Additional recoil comp is needed to fire complex Full auto for extended amounts of time.
But 10 rounds per IP isn't sustainable, since that requires a Complex Action, meaning you won't be able to reset recoil in the same IP. So there is no "extended amounts of time" possible for those - either you spend a Simple Action in the next IP on a non-firing action to reset recoil (meaning you can't do another 10-round burst), or you face a total of 20 recoil on the second 10-round burst.
6 rounds per IP, however, is sustainable, since it allows for you to spend one Simple Action on firing and one on anything else to reset recoil.
You're arguing optimal firing, but optimal firing has changed drastically from SR 4. Six rounds compared to nine in SR 4. Smart characters were always firing compensated to begin with. So yes, they need less recoil to put out weaker attacks/less bullets per action phase. It's all already balanced.
Defense pools and damage have both increased, though, so the attacks are hardly weaker.
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Six recoil (4 increase) is one way to go. The other way to go is 16 recoil (14 increase). Full Auto - Simple Full Auto/Simple Action Reset. 10 rounds every other IP, 6 rounds on the in betweens.
Your claim is that 4 recoil is equivalent to 8 recoil in SR 4 because these are the "optimal firing." You fail to address that your optimal firing isn't equal. Six bullets compared to nine. SRers in SR 4 needed more recoil to shoot more bullets. That's a simple fact.
So, it doesn't matter how much recoil comp you need. What matters is that you either need A.) more recoil comp for optimal firing (the 14 example) or B.) Your optimal firing is weaker than it used to be.
Was it hard to get that 8 recoil comp before? No. It's still not hard to get optimal recoil comp. Since it's weaker though, it doesn't matter as much.
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By claiming it is weaker, you appear to be ignoring the fact that the entire game system was rebalanced and that you now only get 1 Attack Action per IP, which means it changed for EVERYONE. Originally the Longarm user needed 1 RC, now they need 0, for example. Once you actually acknowledge that and move the debate to the Recoil topics, I'm willing to consider your intent to debate genuine. Until then, to my eyes you're just trying to push your point through while deliberately ignoring the game rebalances.
In SR4, you had to do 1 LB and 1 SB each IP to keep up in combat. In SR5, you need 1 LB. Furthermore, you now have 1 more RC available. So the Recoil changes, under the errata, did NOT make Gas Vents any more required for proper functioning in combat than in SR4, and mainly put less pressure on the wielder. Claiming otherwise is pure foolishness.
As such, in my opinion there is no need under the errata to have the two combined. If one ignores the errata and houserules it takes 1 Action Phase to reset recoil, then I consider it perfectly fine to have the two combine. No matter how much you ignore the game rebalance, that opinion won't change, and any recoil debate on it should not mess with this topic and be in the recoil topics, as I already said before.
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You're ignoring the entire point being made. You are trying to claim that it's unbalanced now because it wasn't allowed before, and supposedly, things were balanced before. That of course ignores the entire point of the recoil changes, but that's beside the point. You are the one that brought up optimal firing as a point of interest in this thread. And no, I am not ignoring the rebalances. I'm keeping them in mind completely as it's the basis of the attack being weaker. 1 IP in SR 4 for most sams was a long burst and a short burst all completely compensated, both defended by the defenders reaction and reaction -1. Now, it's a single long burst that is capped by a limit (accuracy) and defended by the defenders Reaction and Intuition.
It's easier to hit the recoil needed in SR 5. That is true. There is no debate there. Recoil compensation is weaker in SR 5 for the exact reason you've stated. You only get one attack per IP. On top of that, your optimal firing proof involves taking that in a simple action and resetting every IP.
You seem to be looking at it all wrong though. Look at what you said. I'm not claiming that Gas Vents are more required. I'm claiming that they are less required. Their value for the majority of characters is far lower than they were in SR 4. They aren't as powerful as they were. The only guns that really need them in most cases are BF pistols, or MGs/ARs if the character is going the 16 RC route.
Since they are less needed, and therefore, inherently less powerful, it is not upsetting the balance to let them work with silencers.
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Even though RC is easier to get, it has become far more valuable in SR5 and as such is even more needed. So while individual mod Gas Vents are less needed, adding recoil compensation to a gun has become far more important. You say it yourself, two attributes and limited by Accuracy nowadays. You might have been able to make due with SA shots in SR4, but in SR5 you have to score more hits while your hits are also restricted. This makes RC both easier to get, due to needing far less, and at the same time far more necessary because it's the only way to score proper hit chances against competent enemies.
So even though you need to manage less RC on a gun to use it optimally, the pressure on having that RC has heavily increased. With Gas Vents it's real easy, but it may come at the price of no silenced gunfire. If you try to get it through other means, you're either restraining mobility with Tripods, or spending a decent bit of money and internal mod space on it. In other words, RC comes at a price: Either part of your limited modspace or losing the ability to fire silently. By letting them combine, however, Gas Vents become the primary way of getting RC and most people would never need any internal modification unless their gun doesn't come with either of the two built in or they're RC-desiring gunbunnies.
Walk the line and pay the price. That's what matters here. Anyway, I'm calling it quits. I'm not interested in constantly having to rehash things from here and other topics.
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Even though RC is easier to get, it has become far more valuable in SR5 and as such is even more needed.
No. It really isn't more valuable. You only get one attack per IP now. There is an illusion of it being more valuable, but since, as you point out, optimal firing involves Simple Actions and resetting in most cases (or alternating Complex Action - Simple Action/Reset firing), it is very easy to get. Being capped at what you need is more valuable, but any given source is less valuable because RC is so easy to get. You get so much for free, the only people needing gas vents are the ones alternating complex actions and resetting. It used to be, the vast majority of people needed gas vents to optimal fire every round.
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Wait...!!!
"includes a smartgun system" doesnt meen to me that it has an internal smartgun system. Because this is also possible on some weppons, but than its stated "includes an internal smartgun system".
It just meens it can be barrel or top mlunted.
What I only wonder is, if you want to have the same gun with an internal smartgun system, if you have to pay dubble the price like normal, or (gun-price of smartgunsystem)*2?
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I don't really think it's unrealistic for a suppressor and a gas vent system to be mounted on the same weapon.
In real life, suppressors have the side effect of reducing felt recoil by trapping the gasses of the weapon to be more slowly released. They give the gasses something to push on, and cool the gasses so that they don't exit the weapon with as much speed or force. This means that the push from the recoil happens over a slightly longer period of time, which greatly reduces the >impulse< of the recoil on your grip.
Gas Vent systems vector gas to provide a push-forward effect to counteract felt recoil in much the same way, only more and better. The two concepts are compatible. While the Suppressor does reduce the speed at which the gasses act on the Gas Vent, it's still the same amount of gas exiting the barrel and acting on the Gas Vent. In effect, the suppressor does a good deal of the gas vent's job, and the gas vent just takes the ball the rest of the way into the no-recoil end zone.
In practice, the reason Gas Vents and Suppressors should be mutually exclusive is when they are both after-market additions, which puts them on the end of the barrel where they can interact with the escaping gasses. Installing both would be impractical and difficult, though not necessarily impossible. I can definitely see the suppressor being stressed out by the gas vent system, and durability would be a problem, if they could even be mounted to each other. Integral Gas Vent and Suppressor systems are engineered into the design of the weapon, leaving room for both accessories to be installed.
For my personal edification I would like to see a Gas Vent/Suppressor combo, or more depth on suppressor design, but that's the gun nut/gear head in me talking.
I do like how they both take up the same slot. It means that our characters have to make a intelligent choices about how we want our weapons to function, and that informs on who the characters are. Much more important, don't you think?
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I'm hoping that Run & Gun goes into more detail about how to install modifications into guns (especially integral mods). Right now, guns have these "slots" that can be filled by mods:
External, over barrel
External, under barrel
External, barrel
External, grip
Integral x 1000
What I'd like to see is a system like this:
External, over barrel
External, under barrel
External, barrel
External, grip
Integral, barrel
Integral, frame
Integral, magazine
Integral, grip
Integral, chamber
That would give GMs and players a great deal of guidance about how these mods work. It would also potentially force players to make choices about how they modify their weapons. And of course, if people don't want to use a system like that they don't have to. Assuming Run & Gun doesn't cover this level of detail, it would be a good houserule to implement, I think. I don't personally have enough time to playtest the potential balance issues of each of these mods when Run & Gun comes out, but I'm sure that we as a community could do something.
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I don't expect that amount of detail. SR4 simply had Integral + 6 Internal Mod Space.