Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Elektrycerze3 on <08-23-13/1039:05>
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Hoi!
I'm currently drafting a bunch of NPC for my home game, who are supposed to stick to discreet weapons, and I'm having some problems understanding the following bits:
Hold-outs can’t take accessories.
Seems simple.
But then I remember, that a holster is a weapon accessory. What about spare clips, which are also weapon accessories? As I understand this is a case of not so perfect wording, OK. Guess the RAI are "hold-outs can’t take top-, barrel- and undermounted accessories", since other firearm categories set restrictions on mounted accessories.
But what about internal smartlinks? This one confused me quite a bit. I have a gut feeling that internal one is OK, but I'm not 100% sure.
Could someone help me out please? Thanks in advance.
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I think you've pretty much identified all applicable rules. My personal take is that they can't take any weapon-modifying attached accessories. I'm not really sure what I think about internal smartgun systems. I'd probably lean towards allowing them.
I think it would take a really irrational ruling to view anything that is not a top-, barrel-, or under-mount accessory as being part of the weapon accessory restrictions. Were that the case, no firearms could use spare magazines of any sort. Some of those accessories, however, stipulate their own restrictions (shock pads and concealable holsters, for instance). It may be poor wording, but I think (and I'm pretty sure you're also thinking) that RAI is pretty obvious with them.
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The Gear Ratings Glossary simply says that hold-outs don't have mounts, so there's that too.
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If it has fancy plating or grips, a Hold-Out can BE an accessory! ;D
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Well, I think in this case, a good dose of sensibility is the way to go. Holster? Not really an accessory, just listed as such (it doesn't actually attach to the gun.) clip... well, it already has a clip, so having extra spare clips? Yeah, no big deal. Internal smartgun system is the only debatable one there, and largely because it is 'this gun is already so small' deal. hard to figure out where to find space to put the bloody thing in... but thats about the only thing I could see a GM giving the stinkeye.
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Hoi!
I'm currently drafting a bunch of NPC for my home game, who are supposed to stick to discreet weapons, and I'm having some problems understanding the following bits:
Hold-outs can’t take accessories.
Seems simple.
But then I remember, that a holster is a weapon accessory. What about spare clips, which are also weapon accessories? As I understand this is a case of not so perfect wording, OK. Guess the RAI are "hold-outs can’t take top-, barrel- and undermounted accessories", since other firearm categories set restrictions on mounted accessories.
But what about internal smartlinks? This one confused me quite a bit. I have a gut feeling that internal one is OK, but I'm not 100% sure.
Could someone help me out please? Thanks in advance.
Got confuzzled with this myself. I assume it actually refers to weapon accessories that need a mount. So basically they can't take anything that needs an under, top or barrel mount. That rules out silencers, but means you can have an internal smartgun system, or a holster, or a spare clip.
So what you said basically.
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Also, I just realized this:
"Light pistols can take top- and barrel-mounted accessories", "Heavy pistols can take top- and barrel- mounted accessories", "Machine pistols can take top- and barrel-mounted accessories", "SMGs can take top- and barrel-mounted accessories", "Assault rifles can take top-, barrel-, and underbarrel-mounted accessories", "Sniper rifles can take top, barrel-, and underbarrel-mounted accessories", "Shotguns can take top, barrel, and underbarrel accessories", "Machine guns can take top, barrel, and underbarrel accessories", "Both assault cannons and launchers can take top and underbarrel accessories"...
None of those weapon categories actually say they can take mount-less accessories..
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doesn't say they can't take em either....
Holdout does not have any mount points. But you can buy spare clip for them. And holsters. And.....
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doesn't say they can't take em either....
Holdout does not have any mount points. But you can buy spare clip for them. And holsters. And.....
Exactly. :)
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This might be a case where you do not have to follow the text exactly. No "mount" accessories, I think most can get behind that. A silencer costs more than most holdouts anyway, heh.
As for internal smartgun system, I would lean towards no, just because it is cheaper to purchase an internal system (by doubling the weapon cost of under 200 nuyen) than to purchase an external system (at 200 nuyen). Example: A Streetline Special would cost 240 nuyen with internal and 320 nuyen with external (if it was allowed). Seems like a loophole that was not closed...
For concealability, remember that a machine pistol with wireless concealed holster is just as concealable as a light pistol tucked into the pants! Heh.
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As for internal smartgun system, I would lean towards no, just because it is cheaper to purchase an internal system (by doubling the weapon cost of under 200 nuyen) than to purchase an external system (at 200 nuyen). Example: A Streetline Special would cost 240 nuyen with internal and 320 nuyen with external (if it was allowed). Seems like a loophole that was not closed...
I've come over to the "Not Allowed" camp, but I would point out that the Yamaha Pulsar also benefits from that rules oddity and can take top-mount accessories. Also, a Light Fire 70 is the same price regardless of whether the smartgun system is internal or external.
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I've come over to the "Not Allowed" camp, but I would point out that the Yamaha Pulsar also benefits from that rules oddity and can take top-mount accessories. Also, a Light Fire 70 is the same price regardless of whether the smartgun system is internal or external.
Nice catch!
I assume the intent was to make internal systems much more expensive than external, for the cost of not using up a mount. But in cases mentioned, the nuyen vs. mount trade-off is not there. Cannot think of a quick rules patch for that, but definitely something to submit for errata consideration or clarification.
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I've come over to the "Not Allowed" camp, but I would point out that the Yamaha Pulsar also benefits from that rules oddity and can take top-mount accessories. Also, a Light Fire 70 is the same price regardless of whether the smartgun system is internal or external.
Nice catch!
I assume the intent was to make internal systems much more expensive than external, for the cost of not using up a mount. But in cases mentioned, the nuyen vs. mount trade-off is not there. Cannot think of a quick rules patch for that, but definitely something to submit for errata consideration or clarification.
Personally, I just ruled that internal smartgun systems cost a minimum of ¥200. Maybe the price for installing one in a hold-out could be even higher (a minimum of, say, ¥500) because it has to miniaturized etc.
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Thanks for all your input!
I don't thinks that's something for Errata (you can't toss everything in it), but rather something for making a call on and sticking with it. Personally, I'd allow internal smartguns in hold-out, but I totally see the point of increasing the cost or even banning the thing.
And special kudos for pointing out the Glossary: never though it could be so useful. The more you know)
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hold out cyberguns come with an internal smartlink
/brings out popcorn
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I assume specific rule over general rule, although hell if I know the proper order of operation... Hell, is that even a rule in SR?
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doesn't say they can't take em either....
Holdout does not have any mount points. But you can buy spare clip for them. And holsters. And.....
*Opens a cannister of IRL powder, and sprinkles generously*
A mount can be added to darn near anything, really, there just aren't rules for that level of gearheadedness.
You could realistically put a scope on a .25ACP pocket pistol, or a laser under the barrel, but It won't be a pocket pistol with all that stuff on it. Nor does it really make sense, but weapon mounts aren't magic, and don't require a lot of tech to add.
In fact, if you had more money than sense you could probably mount a laser on the bottom(s) of (a) magazine(s). If you reinforce the magazine catch, it may not even cause feed issues. But it's still silly.
Then there are side mounts, which are all the rage -- today -- but not in the game.
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*Opens a cannister of IRL powder, and sprinkles generously*
Please, don't.
It's a game, a game with dragons, magic, super-tech reminiscent of the 80's and game balance issues. The moment you open the Pandora's Box, the dragon dies of massive burns, and the knight gets boiled alive in his armor.
What I asked for is RAW & RAI, not IRL. For God's sake, I'm a lawyer, the moment I open the canister the game stops being fun for good.
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*Opens a cannister of IRL powder, and sprinkles generously*
Please, don't.
It's a game, a game with dragons, magic, super-tech reminiscent of the 80's and game balance issues. The moment you open the Pandora's Box, the dragon dies of massive burns, and the knight gets boiled alive in his armor.
Heh. I'm not disagreeing on that point, and thought I had made that concession clear, as well as that I realized that my comments were tangential. Sorry, in either case.