Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Infocalypse on <07-29-13/1343:38>
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I wanted to play a Mystical Adept in our upcoming party and one other player's firm opinion is, that the Mystical Adept is vastly overpowered compared to the Mage and the Adept.
Comparison to the Mage:
Equal in all aspects but:
Can never learn to astraly project.
Has to pay extra for astral perception.
Has Adept powers in addition to the Mage's magical abilities.
Compared to the Adept:
More expensive Priority-wise.
Has to pay Karma for Power Points at character creation.
Can learn Echantment, Conjuring and Sorcery, which the Adept cannot.
Question is whether the ups and downs roughly equal out?
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I strongly suggest reading http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11583.0 for a lot of info on that topic.
I myself think they are blanced enough.
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Once the Errata of Karma 5 instead of Karma 2 for power points kicks in, they get a little less ridiculous.
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I think the consensus appears to be that some sort of adjustment to the Karma cost at chargen is looming, but that in play they're pretty much OK.
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I disagree. In play they get pretty much everything adepts get from Initiating and increasing their Magic, while also getting a boost to their Magician side.
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down with the 5 karma 3-4 is plenty for a PP, they also will have to specilize eventually. they can't keep up with a mages casting power or an adepts physical skills without picking one or the other.
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Thanks for the quick and informative answers. Does anyone know when the first official Errata will be out, that are more than just speculation and house rule discussion?
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down with the 5 karma 3-4 is plenty for a PP, they also will have to specilize eventually. they can't keep up with a mages casting power or an adepts physical skills without picking one or the other.
If they automatically get 1 power point per magic like adepts do, yes they can. If they focus on being a magician they are just inherently better at it, because they're picking up adept powers for free right along with it. And if they focus on being an Adept, they already got free spells and magical skills from the priority they picked as if they picked Magician, so they are just an inherently superior adept because they have these spells in the wings they can use all they like.
I had a player who came to me with the idea for an adept character, read the rules, and then went 'on second thought, he'll be a Mystic Adept.' That's all I needed to see to know something was wonky with Mystics.
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(i think he was meaning that mages often spend Karma to raise mental attributes such as Willpower and Logic/Charisma and skills such as counterspelling, spellcasting, astral combat, banishing, enchanting, assessing, summoning and spells such as fireballs, improved invisibility, mask, mana ball and binding power focus, sustaining foci - while [Physical] Adepts tend to focus on Strength, Body and Agility and skills such as sneaking, blades, climbing, escape artist, running, gymnastics and binding various weapon foci or Qi foci).
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^ this
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A Mystic Adept actually playing a Mystic Adept isn't an issue, because they don't have the points to spread around and be good at both. The problem is that a Magician can build a Mystic Adept and aside from losing projection, is just an inherently superior Magician, and an Adept can build as a Mystic Adept with the same inherent superiority. They don't ever have to buy new spells or increase their magical skills past creation to have all the magician capability they need to be an Adept, but better.
The effect is more pronounced with Mystic adepts built as mages, since they get the exact same Priority benefits, and after they buy power points equal to their magic with karma, get the rest for free, and just have a bunch of adept powers to supplement their spellcasting.
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The effect is more pronounced with Mystic adepts built as mages, since they get the exact same Priority benefits, and after they buy power points equal to their magic with karma, get the rest for free, and just have a bunch of adept powers to supplement their spellcasting.
Yes. Agree
Which is why additional power points should come with a [small] cost. Like 5 Karma. Same as a spell.
If a mystic adept goes physical he will not get free spells when he get higher magic rating. He have to pay 5 karma for them...
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A Mystic Adept actually playing a Mystic Adept isn't an issue,
Hmmm,but what is IYO a mystic Adept ?
For Me it was always a Mix of Adept and Mage
What makes him ...different/seperate(?) from a Mage or an Adept ?
With a Dance in the Dark
Medicineman
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A Mystic Adept actually playing a Mystic Adept isn't an issue,
Hmmm,but what is IYO a mystic Adept ?
For Me it was always a Mix of Adept and Mage
What makes him ...different/seperate(?) from a Mage or an Adept ?
With a Dance in the Dark
Medicineman
Trying to be good at both. IE, he's improving both as a magician and an adept, so he's spreading his karma around a lot to succeed at both roles. As opposed to just playing a Magician who happens to have adept powers, or playing an Adept who happens to have spells. In those cases, the Mystic Adept is just better at the job, since they improve at the same rate as Magician or Adept, but also get free bonuses from the other half that the pure ones don't get.
As I said earlier, I had a player who wanted to be an adept, then took one look at the rules and went Mystic instead. In his case, he's playing as an adept who just happens to have spells, so he's just an inherently superior adept to the other adept in the party.
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not necessarily Superior to the true adept, but better in general due to spells and being more useful? yes. imo there should be two types of mystic adepts, those that start with spells, and those that start with PPs.
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One thing adepts can do (which people seem to forget) is boost any skill. You can play a mystic adept that uses his adept side to increase his spellcasting or take the improved healing abilities to better recover from casting spells with drain. So you'd be a super mage without astral projection.
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A Mystic Adept actually playing a Mystic Adept isn't an issue, because they don't have the points to spread around and be good at both. The problem is that a Magician can build a Mystic Adept and aside from losing projection, is just an inherently superior Magician, and an Adept can build as a Mystic Adept with the same inherent superiority. They don't ever have to buy new spells or increase their magical skills past creation to have all the magician capability they need to be an Adept, but better.
The effect is more pronounced with Mystic adepts built as mages, since they get the exact same Priority benefits, and after they buy power points equal to their magic with karma, get the rest for free, and just have a bunch of adept powers to supplement their spellcasting.
this.
OMG i cant believe magician and mystic adept get the same priority slots! so there is no reason to play a mage, at all. you are waaaaaaay better off going mystic adept and buying yrself 5 PP for the 25 karma at the end to give yourself, hmm lets see, increased reflexes 2 and astral sight and combat sense 3 looks good. what do i lose, 25 karma and astral projection. uuummm yeah mystic adept faceroll win.
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... Right, because you can never have better things to spend your Karma on. Want a rating 3 Power Focus? 18 Karma. Rating 4 Spell Focus? Another 8. Now add 5 for Mentor Spirit, and we're up to 31. Maybe you want to grab Focused Concentration, too, or a couple of Rituals or Preparations. A Mage has a lot of stuff to spend Karma on, and spending that Karma on Power Points instead directly makes you a worse mage.
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Not being able to project (without awakened drugs) is a serious enough drawback for the players in my group.
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Not being able to project (without awakened drugs) is a serious enough drawback for the players in my group.
Really? What is projecting even good for? I'm honestly curious, as I've never seen a value to it.
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Honestly, in my opinion, 19 people at current count need to try to get themselves away from the way that video games balance things. For a tabletop game Mystic Adepts are fine as printed, for a video game, yeah, they'd be a bit 'overpowered'.
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Honestly, in my opinion, 19 people at current count need to try to get themselves away from the way that video games balance things. For a tabletop game Mystic Adepts are fine as printed, for a video game, yeah, they'd be a bit 'overpowered'.
I'm curious as to what aspects you consider to be the differentiating factors between tabletop game balance and video game balance. There certainly are differences, but... I'm not sure what brings you to that conclusion.
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Simple. Video games, especially single-player ones, need everything to be almost completely equal with no mechanic change between options so that the game can be completed no matter what option you choose without the difficulty increase being too drastic.
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I don't think you understand what people are saying here, Guns. Mystic Adept is overpowered in that any player who even remotely pays attention to optimization will take it over pure Magican or pure adept, because it can do the job better than either one. This actually reduces choice and limits interesting character builds, which is very bad for tabletop.
The ideal situation is for everything to be interesting in its own way, rather than blatantly stomping on the toes of anything else, which the Mystic Adept is currently doing with wild abandon.
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I don't think you understand what people are saying here, Guns. Mystic Adept is overpowered in that any player who even remotely pays attention to optimization will take it over pure Magican or pure adept, because it can do the job better than either one. This actually reduces choice and limits interesting character builds, which is very bad for tabletop.
The ideal situation is for everything to be interesting in its own way, rather than blatantly stomping on the toes of anything else, which the Mystic Adept is currently doing with wild abandon.
No, it doesn't reduce choice or limit anything. Just because certain types may gravitate more to it doesn't eliminate the others. I for one probably still wouldn't play one because if I want to play a Mage, I'm going to play a Mage and if I want to play an Adept, I'm going to play an Adept. I don't really play 'hybrid' type characters like this (I'm actually regretting the mistake I made in our Pathfinder game with the Paladin levels I took with my Cleric).
Which would be valid if it were a pure hybrid, like the Mystic adept is supposed to be, but unless you're planning to astrally project a lot, the mystic adept practically replaces the magician, since they share the same priority and The mystic is just a generally superior mage.
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Astral projection is good for recon and sending quick messages, but that's about it, in my experience.... And a mystic adept can do that anyway, by sending a summoned spirit to do recon for him, with their mental link the info is instantly available to the mystic adept, and send watchers to give messages.... So astral projection no big loss to the MA (albeit it is a loss)
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Not being able to project (without awakened drugs) is a serious enough drawback for the players in my group.
Really? What is projecting even good for? I'm honestly curious, as I've never seen a value to it.
Spying !
Intelligence gathering of the magical kind
To know where your Enemy is without him knowing that you're present(until its to late for him when You send Spirit after Spirit to destroy him and he can't do anything against it)
with an astral Dance
Medicineman
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Simple. Video games, especially single-player ones, need everything to be almost completely equal with no mechanic change between options so that the game can be completed no matter what option you choose without the difficulty increase being too drastic.
... That's... An interesting perspective... But really, I think you misunderstand what balance is. Balance in video games, for example, does not in any way require that everything be "the same". You can have massive mechanical differences, and entirely different ways of doing things. Actually, video game balance CAN allow for some things to be better than others provided that they require a higher level of skill to use effectively. Thus, in a balanced video game, you can have first-order optimal strategies (basically things that are effective even for the unskilled) that are less powerful than those options that require greater skill from the player to use. At that point, it's all about the skill curve. MMO's and cooperative games in general are a different beast, but they are so in a way that they actually inherit from tabletop games, though of course there are some differences as with any such case.
In tabletop games, the entire notion of balance is more about the sort of experience that the players have on the game - the sort of influence that they have on the game world and on the story collectively being created by the group (the proverbial "spotlight" concept). If (all things being equal) one player is, due to mechanical elements associated with his character, able to have a much stronger influence on the way the story moves than another, there is a balance problem. With "hybrid" character types, a grossly simplified implication is that since they can have a strong influence across more areas, those characters who have an influence across fewer areas must be able to have a stronger influence in their areas.
So, if the Mystic Adept is able to function in both the areas of the Magician and the Adept, the Magician and the Adept must function more strongly in their respective areas than does the Mystic Adept. Of course, I'd also argue that at 5 Karma per PP, this is indeed the case (at least at chargen), though of course there is the problem that under the current structure the only way to build a MystAd who is an Adept first and a Mage second is to select a relatively high Metatype priority (Human D+, Elf C+, Ork/Dwarf B+, or Troll A) and then spend 30 Karma on Power Points.
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One thing adepts can do (which people seem to forget) is boost any skill. You can play a mystic adept that uses his adept side to increase his spellcasting or take the improved healing abilities to better recover from casting spells with drain. So you'd be a super mage without astral projection.
Checking that's not quite right.
"This power increases the Rating of a specific Combat,
Physical, Social, Technical, or Vehicle skill per level of
the power."
so you can't boost spellcasting with it
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... Right, because you can never have better things to spend your Karma on. Want a rating 3 Power Focus? 18 Karma. Rating 4 Spell Focus? Another 8. Now add 5 for Mentor Spirit, and we're up to 31. Maybe you want to grab Focused Concentration, too, or a couple of Rituals or Preparations. A Mage has a lot of stuff to spend Karma on, and spending that Karma on Power Points instead directly makes you a worse mage.
a) You're ignoring the benefits you can get from the adept powers
- you could spend 12 karma for 6 points in physical stats, how much would that cost you in karma?
- you could spend 7 karma on improved reflexes, which frees up a spell slot so a net of 2 karma to have it always active without sustaining, which means no sustaining focus needed either, and to sustain a force 6 spell for those 3 dice costs 12 karma for a rating 6 sustaining focus, so the mystic adept is well ahead on that (5 karma for the spell, 12 for the focus)
Or looked at another way focused concentration lets you sustain a force 6 improved reflexes for 24 karma, over 3 times the cost of having it permanently on and it means you can't buy other qualities, to sustain armor rating 3 takes 12 karma.
You have a bit more flexibility with the quality but you've got opportunity cost and for 12 karma you can effectively have a force 6 spell (Increased Reflexes) 7 karma, Astral Perception 2 amour and 3 points of permanent armour (or 1 point body and 1 point permanent armour)
how does 2 karma for Astral perception, 7 for improved reflexes 3 and 3 additional reaction or body compare with what you get from anything else?
note that you're limited to 25 points of positive qualities and with negative qualities that could leave you with 38 karma available for everything but adept powers
Maybe you pick up some adept powers that let you buy less spells, maybe you depend on a couple of spells to free up for additional adept powers.
You can't do everything as a beginning mystic adept but then again you can't do everything as a beginning mage either and there are certainly things that a mystic adept can do a hell of a lot cheaper than the mage (boost skills, boost physical attributes, get native initiative boosts, bonuses to social effectiveness if you're looking at doing some face work),
Rapid Healing and/or Pain Resistance can stop penalty dice which might be more of a boost than a power focus at some stage (and note that drain can't be healed other than by time),
Also note that you have the option of picking up qualities, focuses etc in play, it's fairly tough to pick up a natural +3 dice to initiative any other way than being a mystic adept.
b) You don't need to spend much karma on power points to get benefits.
So you could spend 2 points on Astral perception and 3 points of karma for +3 dice on Perception and Assessing.
That's a lot cheaper than you can get 3 dice on 2 skills normally...
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Mad Hamish: until the errata comes out, people are assuming the "for-now errata" from the Missions FAQ will apply: 5 Karma per Power Point, not 2. But yes, 30 Karma is still what raising a single Attribute from 5 to 6 would cost. As for Improved Reflexes: 3.5 Power Points gives you 3+3d6 (13.5 on average) bonus Initiative, which is inbetween 5 hits (5+2d6, 12 on average) and 6 hits (6+3d6, 16.5 on average) on an Increase Reflexes spell.
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And a Force 6 Increase Reflexes costs 24 karma to sustain through a quality. Force 4 is either 16 through a quality or 8+16k nuyen with a focus, which is pretty much 16 at chargen since you're probably Resources E. Meanwhile, if we assume it's 5 karma per PP errata'd, it's 12.5 karma without you risking involving foci addiction. And unlike the spell, it doesn't give +4 intiative but instead actually gives you Reaction, which only is +2 but also gives +2 to dodge. And it saves you a spell slot. Meanwhile, Force 6 vs Improved Reflexes 3 is 17.5 karma instead of the 24 or 12+24k nuyen after chargen (not possible during).
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Adrenaline Boost Adept Power does not stack with Wired Reflexes Cyberware or Improved Reflexes Adept Power.
...But it does stack with the Increase Reflexes spell ;)
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The whole crux of the matter is that if the "munchers" will choose something over another choice every time than that means it's a viable choice without "munching out".
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I am just going to suggest that you go with this clever little houserule that came up in the thread about Mystic Adepts I made.
After chargen, instead of getting a free PP with magic level up, as a mage does, they have to pay the new PP in karma. First PP would be 1 karma, second would be 2, third would be 3 and so on. PP still would cost 5 karma in chargen.
I also like to suggest slightly different setup for MAs in chargen. Instead of getting spells, they get to choose between getting a spell or a PP. For example, instead of 10 spells, a priority A MA could get 10 spells, or they could have 6 PP and 4 spells, and so on. This lets people be a bit more freeform in their MA creation.
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Would they be able to buy PP up to their Magic afterwards that they didn't buy in chargen? Or is a not-bought PP at chargen gone forever? Because with that second case, that spell-trading would be required. Also, what happens if you lack the karma when you raise your Magic? Do you go into debt, lose the option, can you buy it later?
Under 5 karma or a spellslot per PP, and 5 or X karma afterwards when raising Magic, I'd definitely go for Focused Concentration 6, trade in 6 spell slots and go crazy with the remaining 1+negqualities karma. =) If I could buy afterwards but the PP go up, I'd not take PP in chargen, keep 7 karma and buy 4 PP for 10 karma after the first run. It'd be fuuuun.
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Btw. How does the current system work?
You go Mystic adept. You get 5 magic during chargen but only pay 15 karma for 3PP (or 9PP depending on who you very as GM).
But what happens post chargen. Can I buy the remaining 2 Pp up to my magic rating after chargen? Will it still cost 5 karma (or 2 karma) per PP?
If not.... what happens when I raise magic to 6. Will I get 1PP for free or will I get the 2 PP I missed from chargen for free as well....? Are they lost forever if I don't but then during chargen.
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I would suggest caution before going on rants about overpowerement, we do not know what astral space restrictions imply at this point and thus we do not know what the Mystic adept gives up in return.
In the Street Magic book we might bet some very useful metamagic teckniques that are for full magicians only, ways to handle drain, summoning familiar spirits restrictions, whatever. At this point people are getting emotional and polarized while comparing apples to oranges. In SR4 if you were a mystic adept and your familiar was disrupted you had to wait 1 month because you could not go get it back. What if now the banishments lasts for 1 year and 1 day? What if forever? What if you cant do aspecting without fill astral projection? What if etc? One thing is for sure, they are bringing refinements and improvements like the wireless bonus for cyberware or others so I expect some unanticipated new stuff for magic as well.
Remember that astral projection is very flexible and powerful, combined with a familiar/bound spiris you can launch an attack/influence, anywhere in the world if unrestricted.
At least wait for the magic supplement comes out before requesting changes in RAW.
Rapier
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Would they be able to buy PP up to their Magic afterwards that they didn't buy in chargen? Or is a not-bought PP at chargen gone forever? Because with that second case, that spell-trading would be required. Also, what happens if you lack the karma when you raise your Magic? Do you go into debt, lose the option, can you buy it later?
Under 5 karma or a spellslot per PP, and 5 or X karma afterwards when raising Magic, I'd definitely go for Focused Concentration 6, trade in 6 spell slots and go crazy with the remaining 1+negqualities karma. =) If I could buy afterwards but the PP go up, I'd not take PP in chargen, keep 7 karma and buy 4 PP for 10 karma after the first run. It'd be fuuuun.
They can buy PP up after chargen just fine. You buy PP separately from magic, so magic costs the same, then later, if you want, you can buy the PP.
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Would they be able to buy PP up to their Magic afterwards that they didn't buy in chargen? Or is a not-bought PP at chargen gone forever? Because with that second case, that spell-trading would be required. Also, what happens if you lack the karma when you raise your Magic? Do you go into debt, lose the option, can you buy it later?
Under 5 karma or a spellslot per PP, and 5 or X karma afterwards when raising Magic, I'd definitely go for Focused Concentration 6, trade in 6 spell slots and go crazy with the remaining 1+negqualities karma. =) If I could buy afterwards but the PP go up, I'd not take PP in chargen, keep 7 karma and buy 4 PP for 10 karma after the first run. It'd be fuuuun.
They can buy PP up after chargen just fine. You buy PP separately from magic, so magic costs the same, then later, if you want, you can buy the PP.
That's not what the Power Points section on pages 278-279 says: it says that after chargen, the only ways to get Power Points are Initiating and raising your Magic.
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Maybe a house rule is in order....
- Physical] Adepts always get free PP up to Magic rating.
- Mystic Adepts always pay 5 Karma per PP up to Magic rating.
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Maybe a house rule is in order....
- Physical] Adepts always get free PP up to Magic rating.
- Mystic Adepts always pay 5 Karma per PP up to Magic rating.
That's the idea, but another idea that I find makes more sense both fluffwise and mechanically is that it is 5 Karma per PP up to magic rating in chargen, and outside chargen the Karma cost is equal to the new rank. This makes is more like a skill or a knowledge, being cheaper at lower levels, and more costly later on.
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Maybe a house rule is in order....
- Physical] Adepts always get free PP up to Magic rating.
- Mystic Adepts always pay 5 Karma per PP up to Magic rating.
That's the idea, but another idea that I find makes more sense both fluffwise and mechanically is that it is 5 Karma per PP up to magic rating in chargen, and outside chargen the Karma cost is equal to the new rank. This makes is more like a skill or a knowledge, being cheaper at lower levels, and more costly later on.
But more complicated to explain. SR5 = simplicity.
What if i have 5 magic at chargen but only buy 3PP for 15 karma.
Will the 4th PP cost me 4PP after chargen...? ;)
Then it would be better to not buy PP during chargen. Save 7 Karma and buy:
PP1 = 1 Karma
PP2 = 2 Karma
PP3 = 3 Karma
= total 6 Karma instead of 15 Karma during chargen....
Simplicity (such as always 5 Karma per PP or always free PP up to Magic rating) mean fewer loopholes and edge cases.
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Maybe a house rule is in order....
- Physical] Adepts always get free PP up to Magic rating.
- Mystic Adepts always pay 5 Karma per PP up to Magic rating.
That's the idea, but another idea that I find makes more sense both fluffwise and mechanically is that it is 5 Karma per PP up to magic rating in chargen, and outside chargen the Karma cost is equal to the new rank. This makes is more like a skill or a knowledge, being cheaper at lower levels, and more costly later on.
But more complicated to explain. SR5 = simplicity.
What if i have 5 magic at chargen but only buy 3PP for 15 karma.
Will the 4th PP cost me 4PP after chargen...? ;)
Then it would be better to not buy PP during chargen. Save 7 Karma and buy:
PP1 = 1 Karma
PP2 = 2 Karma
PP3 = 3 Karma
= total 6 Karma instead of 15 Karma during chargen....
Simplicity (such as always 5 Karma per PP or always free PP up to Magic rating) mean fewer loopholes and edge cases.
Ok, before I say my thoughts on the system, I want to just get something off my back that has been bothering me about what people are saying in SR5. That is the SR5=simplicity line I hear whenever someone wants to just go the simple route instead of fixing the problem properly. The dev diaries said they where trying to streamline Shadowrun, not overly simplify it. While SR5 is more simple then SR4, it is still one of the more complex RPGs, so a little karma cost scaling should be fine, especially given that is happens with almost eveything else where the number raises (knowledge skills, active skills, attributes, initiation grade, etc.).
In response to the excellent point you made, I have thought of that, but I was just showing what I had at the time from the other thread, while I tried to think up some way to fix that problem. I have two, outside of just leaving it as it is and saying that they're paying to have their PP early. .
The first would be to simply bring the karma cost to be the same in chargen, this is the worse of the two, because it would make it far too easy to start out with maxed out PP for little to no cost.
My personal preference goes to having karma cost 5 PP up until you try and upgrade to 6, then it goes to the system of costing the new rank, so it would go like this
PP1-5=5 Karma each
PP6=6 Karma
PP7=7 Karma
And so on.
This is the same in chargen, so if you where to try and buy the 6th PP, you would need to pay 6 karma. It is basically a linear learning pattern until you get to a certain point, then it starts gradually getting more and more difficult.
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What would the balance ramifications of going back to 2 karma per PP for chargen and then having mystic Adepts gain Power Points ONLY through initiation metamagic? It would at least make the Mystic Adept choose between Mage and Adept on a regular basis.
Just spit balling.
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All I can say is that with a couple sessions under our belt a mage and a mystic adept on the same team and using the 5 karma per PP amount the mystic adept comes across as mage+. He is just flat out better in play. Maybe if the mage was better at optimizing he might look more even with him but I am not sure its a good place to be where optimized guy looks even with thrown together guy, because the mystic adept can optimize as well. IMO mystic adepts need a hard limit that will stick with them and make them fundamentally weaker than he currently is. \
Either make them aspected magicians or something like 2 separate magic stats that they divide their points between.Idea being A magic mystic adept has 6 magic to spread between 2 separate starts, kind of like 4e. The difference would be 1 your racial special attribute points could be used to get you past 6 in total since it is actually 2 separate stats and not one stat divided and improving 2 separate stats is cheaper than one stat thanks to scaling karma costs. Now you could still get to 6/6 it just would require a higher racial investment and when it comes to growth it would slow it down from the current 5e insane rate where they get both for the cost of 1.
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MA should split their magic attribute. That would keep them balanced and still viable enough, eg Magic 4 spellcaster/summoner with 2 Magic in adept powers, say combat sense and improved ability. As the game rolls on the player chooses which path to advance (or both). I expect MA would become more niche characters but that's what MA should be, and it is preferably to MA being the obvious choice over a mage or adept. Current MA rules = less choice, not more, in terms of team composition - because there is no good reason to play a mage or adept over an MA.
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I think you downplay the importance of astral projection.
In the hands of a creative player astral projection is a very powerful ability.
If you only play your mage for counterspell dice, to sling spells and on occasion summon a spirit
- then you should probably be a mystic adept instead.
Astral Projection is what make or break the hermetic or shamanistic mage.
What would the balance ramifications of going back to 2 karma per PP for chargen and then having mystic Adepts gain Power Points ONLY through initiation metamagic? It would at least make the Mystic Adept choose between Mage and Adept on a regular basis.
That would force you to play a full time sorcerer with a few adept powers and no access to astral projection. It would be good right out of chargen, but probably not even worth considering for long term.
It would be very hard to play as an [physical] adept with a few utility spells (and in this case it would also be kinda pointless to spend karma on magic except maybe for increasing the number of Qi-focus you can use)
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What would the balance ramifications of going back to 2 karma per PP for chargen and then having mystic Adepts gain Power Points ONLY through initiation metamagic? It would at least make the Mystic Adept choose between Mage and Adept on a regular basis.
Just spit balling.
12 karma and no Astral Projection for 5 Power Points, + anything else you can get as normal Magician, is really heavily overpowered. That's Power Points that can be put into stuff that normally require a Sustaining Focus and a spellslot to get, which means less spells for other purposes and more risk at Focus Addiction. A Sustaining Focus is 4 karma at chargen per Force, 2 for the binding and 2 for the money. Boosting Reaction from 4 to 8 through a spell requires 16 karma, a spellslot and 4 Force less available for other Foci to have active. Boosting their Initiative with +4+2d6 would require the same, that's 32 karma in binding+monetary costs for +4 Reaction, +4+2d6 Initiative.
Meanwhile, the Mystic Adept can spend 3.5 PP on +3 Rea, +3d6 Initiative and spend another PP on +1 Reaction. This means they have +4 Reaction, +3d6 Iniative which is about the same as +4+2d6, and they can spend the last 0.5 PP on Combat Sense for 1 extra dodge die. Even at 5 karma per Power Point, that's an extra dodge die, 30 karma and the loss of Astral Projection instead of 32 karma, 2 spell slots, Focus Addiction risks.
That's excluding the option to pay Karma (which means less spells / improvements) for more Power Point or Qi Foci and the option to take an Adept benefit of a Mentor Spirit, which are all options that come at a price.
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I think you downplay the importance of astral projection.
In the hands of a creative player astral projection is a very powerful ability.
If you only play your mage for counterspell dice, to sling spells and on occasion summon a spirit
- then you should probably be a mystic adept instead.
Astral Projection is what make or break the hermetic or shamanistic mage.
I think you're overplaying the importance of astral projection, but either way, it doesn't matter, because the Mage should still be better at Mage stuff then the MA. A specialist should be better then a non-specialist at the specialists trade, that is basic balance. Combat Mages have been a part of SR for a long time, and people shouldn't have to play MA just to be a halfway decent CM. Mages should be the best at Mage stuff, Adepts should be the best at Adept stuff, and MAs should be ok at both, making up for being weaker in both, by having both. That is the whole point of Mystic Adepts.
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Agreed.
That is why i support the idea that buying PP should always cost 5 Karma for Mystic Adepts and that they never get Astral Projection.
I would not mind if Aspected Mages was buffed in some way.
IMO Aspected Mages are the true specialists as they only focus on one single aspect (out of three).
They should have +2 dice to everything they do in that single school of magic they control. Or something.
Maybe Mystic Adepts should have some similar restriction, besides astral projection.
Can only select one magic aspect (enchanting, sorcery or conjuring)?
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@Xenon yes, aspected should be buffed a bit, in SR4 street magic , they had an optional rule saying all aspected got a 2 dice bonus in their school of magic.
MA could get magic+magic\3 in his mage and adept side. A magic6 MA would then have 4 in mage magic and 4 PP, but maybe use his full magic for dice rolls. (he would then be just as good as casting spells as a magician, just not as high level). (he then shouldnt buy PP, but get them for free)
I have seen many good suggestions on these boards on how to change the MA, and Im certain I will find one to my liking I will end up using.
Although I find it odd with the current rules he cant exchange spells known for PP (as the erratta should make PP 5 karma, just like spells) How come he by default should know just as many spells as a mage ?
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... How come he by default should know just as many spells as a mage ?
That could be a way to house rule them into less skilled casters at chargen i guess. Something like:
MA starting out with Magic rating [as listed in the Magic or Resonance column] less number of spells.
Prio A: Magic 6. 4 Free spells instead of 10.
Prio B: Magic 4. 3 free spells instead of 7.
Prio C: Magic 3. 2 free spells instead of 5.
(That would be a nerf)
Or how about this:
MA can select to exchange up to Magic rating [as listed in the Magic or Resonance column] less number of spells and instead take them as power points
Prio A: Magic 6. Down to 4 free spells instead of 10, start with up to 6 power points for free.
Prio B: Magic 4. Down to 3 free spells instead of 7, start with up to 4 power points for free.
Prio C: Magic 3. Down to 2 free spells instead of 5, start with up to 3 power points for free.
(That would be a slight buff)
edit, worded different
Prio A: Magic 6. Start with 6 free spells or power points + 4 free spells
Prio B: Magic 4. Start with 4 free spells or power points + 3 free spells
Prio C: Magic 3. Start with 3 free spells or power points + 2 free spells
Additional spells or power points cost 5 Karma each (both during chargen and after).
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I would not mind if Aspected Mages was buffed in some way.
IMO Aspected Mages are the true specialists as they only focus on one single aspect (out of three).
They should have +2 dice to everything they do in that single school of magic they control. Or something.
Maybe Mystic Adepts should have some similar restriction, besides astral projection.
Can only select one magic aspect (enchanting, sorcery or conjuring)?
This is probably a good idea. Mystic Adepts could take -1 or -2 dice on all enchanting, sorcery, and conjuring tests? Maybe they should also get a +1 (AsMg) and -1 (MyAd) on the thresholds as well. Aspected Magicians really could use a buff -- I think they only get a discount of 5 karma from a full Magician and that's not enough to offset their disadvantages.
Maybe another houserule is to adjust the Force or the drain Aspected Magicians (they really could use a buff) and Mystic Adepts take. For example, Aspected Magicians could take 1 less drain on Sorcery and Enchanting and spirits resist with one less die on Conjuring (two less on Binding?). Similarly, Mystic Adepts could take 1 more drain on Sorcery and Enchanting and spirits resist with one more die on Conjuring.
Adjusting the Force is a bit more complicated to spell out, but basically all the good stuff is adjusted while the bad stuff stays the same. So drain and the opposed roll stays the same, but the threshold and other benefits adjust. Aspected Magicians get +1 Force and Mystic Adepts get -1 Force. When an Aspected Magician summons a Force 5 spirit, it resists like a Force 4 spirit. When an Aspected Magician casts a Force 6 Manaball, he only takes the drain as if it were a Force 5 Manaball.
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Aspected Magicians clearly need a boost, but for Mystic Adepts I'd like to see how they're nerfed first.
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Agreed.
That is why i support the idea that buying PP should always cost 5 Karma for Mystic Adepts and that they never get Astral Projection.
I would not mind if Aspected Mages was buffed in some way.
IMO Aspected Mages are the true specialists as they only focus on one single aspect (out of three).
They should have +2 dice to everything they do in that single school of magic they control. Or something.
Maybe Mystic Adepts should have some similar restriction, besides astral projection.
Can only select one magic aspect (enchanting, sorcery or conjuring)?
I've remember reading (I think in this thread) that the 5 karma cost wasn't enough to balance everything out, which is why I think the rising cost makes more sense. Not to mention that it just makes more sense from a fluff standpoint as well.
I have a starting point for buffing Aspected Mages, and that is that they start with the same amount of magic as an Adept of their priority. So for example, B priority AM starts with 6 magic instead of 5.
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People really need to actually give the Mystic Adept a try as printed for a few months (around half to 3/4 of a year) instead of immediately jumping on the bandwagon with a few who went to Origins and started making the wild 'overpowered' claims.
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People really need to actually give the Mystic Adept a try as printed for a few months (around half to 3/4 of a year) instead of immediately jumping on the bandwagon with a few who went to Origins and started making the wild 'overpowered' claims.
The problem is that, as it is printed, Mystic Adept gets two for the price of one in many aspects, and for a character type meant to be a balance between the two, it is easy to see how a MA can keep up with a Mage or Adept while having the abilities of the other. I feel it is rather glaring as a flaw, and while it doesn't need a drastic nerf or anything like that, I do think that they need to slow down the progression of Mystic Adepts, so they don't outpace the specialists in both their fields to easily.
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So A4BG, what's your opinion about Mystic Adepts currently getting the same bonuses from Initiation + Magic increase as regular Adepts, in addition to the Magic increase boosting their spellcasting?
EDIT: So how come you'll respond to Dracain's post, but not this one?
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People really need to actually give the Mystic Adept a try as printed for a few months (around half to 3/4 of a year) instead of immediately jumping on the bandwagon with a few who went to Origins and started making the wild 'overpowered' claims.
The problem is that, as it is printed, Mystic Adept gets two for the price of one in many aspects, and for a character type meant to be a balance between the two, it is easy to see how a MA can keep up with a Mage or Adept while having the abilities of the other. I feel it is rather glaring as a flaw, and while it doesn't need a drastic nerf or anything like that, I do think that they need to slow down the progression of Mystic Adepts, so they don't outpace the specialists in both their fields to easily.
Have any of you actually given them a fair shot in play for an extended period of time before drawing this conclusion, or are you jerking your knees after just reading it and hearing Bull's opinion of it? Sorry, but I suspect the former because the book hasn't been out long enough to truly give it a chance.
Basically, just give it a fair shake for a while as printed. Things can look pretty bad on first glance--or even in the short term through play--but an extended period of time giving it a chance could very well clear up one's concerns.
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I don't have to be hit by a bus to know it would suck.
Another 6 months in play is not going to change the deal that the mystake adept is just a better mage than the mage in our party. Sadly it will actually get even more pronounced as time goes on and his adept abilities grow.
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Interesting assumption, but you can't know for certain until actually giving it a chance. Again, it's all based off knee-jerk reactions from reading them or from people who saw very short-term at Origins.
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Or from a logical analysis of the rules. I'm sorry but your knee jerk decision to blindly accept imbalance does not make things balanced. It just means balance is not a big concern in your games.
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It's not "blindly accepting" anything. It is merely a willingness to give it a fair chance.
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It's not "blindly accepting" anything. It is merely a willingness to give it a fair chance.
You are, however, apparently blind to my earlier question of what your opinion is about Mystic Adepts currently getting the same bonuses (in addition to the Magician-side bonuses from having +1 Magic) as regular Adepts when they Initiate and increase their Magic.
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It's not "blindly accepting" anything. It is merely a willingness to give it a fair chance.
You are, however, apparently blind to my earlier question of what your opinion is about Mystic Adepts currently getting the same bonuses (in addition to the Magician-side bonuses from having +1 Magic) as regular Adepts when they Initiate and increase their Magic.
It's perfectly fine.
If they split focus between the two as they advance, both of the others will end up outstripping them in that field. Adepts will likely have close to double the Power Points that the Mystic Adept ends up with and Magicians will have gained more "tricks up their sleeve".
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It's perfectly fine.
If they split focus between the two as they advance, both of the others will end up outstripping them in that field. Adepts will likely have close to double the Power Points that the Mystic Adept ends up with and Magicians will have gained more "tricks up their sleeve".
What if they focus entirely on Magic, and use adept powers to simply make themselves a mage+?
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It's perfectly fine.
If they split focus between the two as they advance, both of the others will end up outstripping them in that field. Adepts will likely have close to double the Power Points that the Mystic Adept ends up with and Magicians will have gained more "tricks up their sleeve".
What if they focus entirely on Magic, and use adept powers to simply make themselves a mage+?
Considering that just to perceive astrally they'll basically be functioning off of one less Power Point than the Adept, and that they will never be able to project, it is evened out now matter how much people want to undercut projection's value.
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It's not "blindly accepting" anything. It is merely a willingness to give it a fair chance.
You are, however, apparently blind to my earlier question of what your opinion is about Mystic Adepts currently getting the same bonuses (in addition to the Magician-side bonuses from having +1 Magic) as regular Adepts when they Initiate and increase their Magic.
It's perfectly fine.
If they split focus between the two as they advance, both of the others will end up outstripping them in that field. Adepts will likely have close to double the Power Points that the Mystic Adept ends up with and Magicians will have gained more "tricks up their sleeve".
So it's okay for mystic adepts to be able to out-progress regular adepts for the same karma cost during character advancements, because they probably will choose to do something else? Do you even realize how ridiculous that statement is?
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It's not "blindly accepting" anything. It is merely a willingness to give it a fair chance.
You are, however, apparently blind to my earlier question of what your opinion is about Mystic Adepts currently getting the same bonuses (in addition to the Magician-side bonuses from having +1 Magic) as regular Adepts when they Initiate and increase their Magic.
It's perfectly fine.
If they split focus between the two as they advance, both of the others will end up outstripping them in that field. Adepts will likely have close to double the Power Points that the Mystic Adept ends up with and Magicians will have gained more "tricks up their sleeve".
So it's okay for mystic adepts to be able to out-progress regular adepts for the same karma cost during character advancements, because they probably will choose to do something else? Do you even realize how ridiculous that statement is?
:o
If the Mystic Adept splits focus or focuses entirely on casting, the Adept will in fact be better in that area than the Mystic as they will have more Power Points. Now if the Mystic focuses entirely on the Adept side they'll be equivalent to the Adept there, but they won't be as good at casting as the Magician. Basically, the very beginning before any advancement occurs is the only time when they'll be equal to both at the same time.
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If the Mystic Adept splits focus or focuses entirely on casting, the Adept will in fact be better in that area than the Mystic as they will have more Power Points. Now if the Mystic focuses entirely on the Adept side they'll be equivalent to the Adept there, but they won't be as good at casting as the Magician. Basically, the very beginning before any advancement occurs is the only time when they'll be equal to both at the same time.
But you haven't addressed the issue of the Mystic Adept who functions as mage+ for all practical purposes.
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If the Mystic Adept splits focus or focuses entirely on casting, the Adept will in fact be better in that area than the Mystic as they will have more Power Points. Now if the Mystic focuses entirely on the Adept side they'll be equivalent to the Adept there, but they won't be as good at casting as the Magician. Basically, the very beginning before any advancement occurs is the only time when they'll be equal to both at the same time.
>:(
It doesn't matter that a Magician will out-Magician you if you go full Adept during character advancement - what matters is your Adept side will advance just as quickly as the regular Adept, while your Magician side also improves slightly because your Magic goes up (allowing higher stun-Drain Force, and giving 1/3 extra hit on any roll that uses your Magic rating).
The problem is that where the regular Adept advances 0% Magician, 100% Adept, you're basically advancing 20% Magician, 100% Adept. It's the Adept that basically becomes inferior with character advancement, not the Magician.
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Basically, the very beginning before any advancement occurs is the only time when they'll be equal to both at the same time.
Equal to both isn't the problem, its superior to one.
Why be an adept when you can go mystic adept, be equally as good as an adept at everything, and also have spells on the side?
Why be a magician when you can go mystic adept, be exactly as good as the magician in every way because you share priorities, and also get a bunch of adept powers for free while only losing projection?
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Basically, the very beginning before any advancement occurs is the only time when they'll be equal to both at the same time.
Why be a magician when you can go mystic adept, be exactly as good as the magician in every way because you share priorities, and also get a bunch of adept powers for free while only losing projection?
Well, if you start the game with 0 Power Points, you also lose Astral Perception, although you could use the free PP from your first Magic increase for that.
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Basically, just please stop trying to get things changed in the system itself. If for your tables it isn't kosher, find a way to make it that way for your table.
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And that'd be the point where you guys should admit you got the moral victory and call it a day. Yes, I'm talking to you, bro.
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:Can I have the immoral victory. Its more my style.
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For you, always.
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Basically, just please stop trying to get things changed in the system itself. If for your tables it isn't kosher, find a way to make it that way for your table.
So we shouldn't try to change the fact that the system isn't kosher, because it allows for Mystic Adepts to become superior to Magicians during character advancement if they go full-Magician (with the caveats that astral projection isn't possible, and astral perception not possible until you obtain a PP and spend it on that), and superior to Adepts (with the caveats that Magic D isn't possible, you'll have less Edge - or will have to drop something else a priority level - in exchange for your spells (and with Magic B, more skill levels), and it costs 30 Karma to start with the same amount of PP) during character advancement if they go full-Adept? Even though something as simple as "it costs extra Karma for a Mystic Adept to get that Power Point that Adepts get for free from a Magic increase" would solve both issues?
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Basically, just please stop trying to get things changed in the system itself. If for your tables it isn't kosher, find a way to make it that way for your table.
So we shouldn't try to change the fact that the system isn't kosher, because it allows for Mystic Adepts to become superior to Magicians during character advancement if they go full-Magician (with the caveats that astral projection isn't possible, and astral perception not possible until you obtain a PP and spend it on that), and superior to Adepts (with the caveats that Magic D isn't possible, you'll have less Edge - or will have to drop something else a priority level - in exchange for your spells (and with Magic B, more skill levels), and it costs 30 Karma to start with the same amount of PP) during character advancement if they go full-Adept? Even though something as simple as "it costs extra Karma for a Mystic Adept to get that Power Point that Adepts get for free from a Magic increase" would solve both issues?
That would be the views that you and those who are agreeing with you have, and you're welcome to your opinions. Do whatever you need to for your tables.
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That would be the views that you and those who are agreeing with you have, and you're welcome to your opinions. Do whatever you need to for your tables.
I am welcome to my clear display of facts, indeed, just as you are welcome to disagree.
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The thing with a PnP RPG is you don't have to wait to see how things turn out. Give a MA and either Adept Mage 50-100 Karma and see which one will preform better in most circumstances. I think you'll find the MA pulls ahead rather easily if you go by the book. This isn't something that giving it time will change, or make better. The MA can play a spellcaster no problem, and still get free PP with no issue every time they increase magic, making them able to keep up with Adepts.
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So it's okay for mystic adepts to be able to out-progress regular adepts for the same karma cost during character advancements, because they probably will choose to do something else?
I think you are looking very hard at just the magic rating and what mystic adepts get when they invest in magic.
Yes, this DO let them "double dip" in both the Mystic aspect as well as the Physical aspect at the same time.
- However, Magic rating is not everything.
A [physical] adept will spend Karma on physical attributes, mundane weapon skills, active agility skills, weapon focus and Qi-focus (as well as Magic for power points and initiation for even more power points).
A mystic adept that choose to do 'something else' will focus on mental attributes, spells, magic skills, various non-weapon- and non-qi-focus (as well as magic for power points, but initiation for other metamagic than additional power points).
- He will not automatically also be as good at the [Physical] Adept side as a dedicated [Physical] Adept.
- In addition, even if he focus 100% on the mystic side he will still lack Astral Projection (and always be 30 Karma behind)
A Hermetic or Shamanistic Magician will spend Karma on mental attributes, spells, magic skills, various non-weapon- and non-qi-focus (as well as magic and initiation for other metamagic than power points).
A mystic adept that choose to do 'something else' will focus on physical attributes, mundane weapon skills, active agility skills, weapon focus and Qi-focus (as well as Magic for power points and initiation for even more power points).
- He will not automatically also be as good at the Mystic side as a dedicated Hermetic or Shamanistic Magician.
- In addition, even if he focus 100% on the mystic side he will still lack Astral Projection (and always be 30 Karma behind)
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imo mystic adepts are clearly OP and will be houseruled out of our game completely. theres no need for them, u lose nothing removing them from the game.
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imo mystic adepts are clearly OP and will be houseruled out of our game completely. theres no need for them, u lose nothing removing them from the game.
True... Except maybe the cool concept of having a Ninja that can use invisibility to disappear in a puff of smoke right in front of you.
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So it's okay for mystic adepts to be able to out-progress regular adepts for the same karma cost during character advancements, because they probably will choose to do something else?
I think you are looking very hard at just the magic rating and what mystic adepts get when they invest in magic.
Yes, this DO let them "double dip" in both the Mystic aspect as well as the Physical aspect at the same time.
- However, Magic rating is not everything.
A [physical] adept will spend Karma on physical attributes, mundane weapon skills, active agility skills, weapon focus and Qi-focus (as well as Magic for power points and initiation for even more power points).
A mystic adept that choose to do 'something else' will focus on mental attributes, spells, magic skills, various non-weapon- and non-qi-focus (as well as magic for power points, but initiation for other metamagic than additional power points).
- He will not automatically also be as good at the [Physical] Adept side as a dedicated [Physical] Adept.
- In addition, even if he focus 100% on the mystic side he will still lack Astral Projection (and always be 30 Karma behind)
A Hermetic or Shamanistic Magician will spend Karma on mental attributes, spells, magic skills, various non-weapon- and non-qi-focus (as well as magic and initiation for other metamagic than power points).
A mystic adept that choose to do 'something else' will focus on physical attributes, mundane weapon skills, active agility skills, weapon focus and Qi-focus (as well as Magic for power points and initiation for even more power points).
- He will not automatically also be as good at the Mystic side as a dedicated Hermetic or Shamanistic Magician.
- In addition, even if he focus 100% on the mystic side he will still lack Astral Projection (and always be 30 Karma behind)
But the probelm is that a Mystic Adept doesn't need to "choose to do something else". Say someone wants to play an Adept, but then they look and see that they could just play a Mystic Adept, and get exactly the same stuff, just now they have spells, and it works the same the other way around. Why play a specialist when it is easy to make a character that gets both better? You say a MA may do this or it may do that, but that is all if the MA feels like doing that. For a Combat Mage or a Adept, a MA can just build exactly the same, plus they also get stuff the other class gets. Like ZeConster said, you could be a Mage with 100% magic, or an Adept with 100% Adept...Or you could be an MA with 100% magic and 20% Adept, or visa-versa. The only bonus to choosing a specialist is that Mages get AP and Adepts can be gotten at B priority, though since MA will whoop Adepts in the long run as it is, it would be smarter to just get the MA. These bonuses simply aren't enough to balance out ALL of what MAs get. The point of MAs is that they get diversity at the cost of being as good as a more focused character type, but they can easily be that focused character while also having some of their diversity. They can have their cake and eat it too, in some ways.
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Okay, it's just silly to counter "if they focus on the same thing they get the PP and keep stacking those up as they progress" with "but they might not focus on the same thing". We are, after all, arguing here that a Mystic Adept focusing entirely on one of the paths will outclass the real thing thanks to the extra bonuses. Now if you state 12 karma behind (which is what A4BG insists on being the only right cost) and no Astral Projection in return for 5+ PP, we're getting somewhere. With 30 karma we're also getting somewhere.
To that 30 karma I'd like to counter with my previous example that an effective 32 karma, 2 spell slots and 8 Force in foci active (hello addiction rules!) is required for 4[8] Reaction and an additional +4+2d6 (average 11) Initiative, whereas those 6-1=5 PP I can invest in x[x+4] Reaction and +3d6 (average 10.5) Initiative and have 0.5 PP left. So in comparison to a Combat Mage heavily investing in initiative and dodge, I can not only take a higher base reaction while still being able to get an augmented boost without sustaining penalties, I do not risk Focus Addiction and I saved 2 spell slots by not needing to take Increase Reaction and Increase Reflexes.
So to summarize: Ability to get higher base Reaction in return for lowering another attribute. No Focus Addiction risks. 0.5 initiative less on average. No Astral Projection. 2 karma spent less. 2 spell slots left for other things. 0.5 PP left. Additional Power Points as I raise my Magic in the far future.
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It is quite simple, really. Compared to a full Magician, a Mystic Adept loses Astral Projection and Astral Perception, gains the ability to spend chargen Karma on PP, and after chargen, can do everything the Magician also does upgrade-wise, while also getting a free Power Point every time they increase their Magic.
Compared to a full Adept, it's a little different at chargen due to the priority level differences and the need to (currently) spend 30 Karma if you want to start with max PP, but afterwards, can keep step with the full Adept on everything*, while also becoming better at their Magic skills every time they increase their Magic.
So you see, the problem here isn't that the Mystic Adept can go X% Magician, Y% Adept during character advancement, with X+Y > 100, the problem is that the Mystic Adept can go 100% Magician, Y% Adept, or X% Magician, 100% Adept, where X and Y are greater than 0. And that simply isn't fair to Magicians and Adepts.
Now, something as simple as making Mystic Adepts spend extra Karma if they want that Magic-increase Power Point turns those extremes into 100% Magician, 0% Adept, and X% Magician, Y% Adept (where Y is pretty high, but not 100%).
*(the Mystic Adept's attributes, skills, Edge or Resources will be a bit lower due to the differing priorities, and the Mystic Adept will have spent some skill points on Magic skills the Adept has no access to, meaning their skillset will differ, but every time the full Adept gets a +1 on something, the Mystic Adept can get a +1 on it as well)
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I might have miss-read the post i quoted. I read it as he thought mystic adepts that went pure physical would automatically get equally good as a magician or if he goes pure mystic that he would automatically get equally good as a [physical] adept as well (which is not true).
1: I think mystic that goes half/half magician/physical is balanced.
Yes, there is an issue with adepts that pick mystic but still play like an adept (but with a handful of powerful utility spells as well). this issue is not as big as the other way around though, since you can build a successful adept with one less priority at chargen (for example Adept(6) at B instead of Mystic Adept(6) at (A)). The difference between a pure [physical] adept and a mystic adept would potentially be as big as 10 skill points plus 5 group skills or getting +1 to your four top attributes. The mystic would also need to focus on attributes such as logic or charisma and willpower and magic skills to be able to utilize the magic in the first place - while the physical adept could focus more points into physical attributes and agility skills. Getting more spells for the mystic will also cost 5 Karma each and further put him behind the adept on the physical plane.
2: I think mystic that goes pure physical is balanced at chargen
3: I think mystic that goes pure physical is balanced post-chargen as well
Then we have mystics that decide to go all out magicians. Magicians have to take the same prio as the mystic, so no loss there. You get the same amount of skills and spells. You get the option to buy power points which at chargen put you back 12 or 30 Karma. You will also not get astral projection and astral perception will cost you one of your power points. Depending on how much emphasis you put on astral projection this and the loss of 12-30 Karma might, or might not, be enough to offset the 5 power points of adept powers you can select (besides astral projection).
- But after chargen you will get one free power point each time you increase magic (that you would raise anyway for use as a mystic). Being 12-30 Karma behind will diminish as you get more and more post-chargen Karma. Not having astral projection will be a constant drawback (and in my view a huge drawback; i've seen some very creative (ab)use of Astral Projection - but I might overvalue it?). Getting free PP each time you increase your Magic will be a pure benefit.
4: I think Mystics that goes pure magician is balanced at chargen (at 5 Karma cost).
5: I think Mystics that goes pure magician are not balanced post-chargen
- The only reason for this is because they get a free power points when they raise magic.
If they had to pay 5 Karma for each power point post-chargen as well then I think they would be balanced post-chargen.
....but as i said, i might put too much value at the usefulness of astral projection...
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Leaving aside free PP from raising Magic, would you consider 0.5 PP, 2 extra available Spell Slots, no Focus Addiction Risks and 2 extra karma be worth more than Astral Projection? That's 12 karma, 0.5 PP, no addiction as bonuses for the Mystic Adept that rivals a Combat Mage.
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Then we have mystics that decide to go all out magicians. Magicians have to take the same prio as the mystic, so no loss there. You get the same amount of skills and spells. You get the option to buy power points which at chargen put you back 12 or 30 Karma. You will also not get astral projection and astral perception will cost you one of your power points. Depending on how much emphasis you put on astral projection this and the loss of 12-30 Karma might, or might not, be enough to offset the 5 power points of adept powers you can select (besides astral projection).
It doesn't put you back 12 or 30 Karma - it "puts you back" between 0 and 30 Karma, and that's Karma you can spend on things you would otherwise have to cast a spell for, and then sustain.
As an example, you could spend 15 Karma or 3 PP on 0.5 PP for other stuff and Improved Reflexes 2 (2+2D6 extra Initiative, which gives you 2.5 more Initiative than a Force 3 Increase Reflexes spell would give you, without having to spend 6 Karma and 12k (possibly another 6 Karma) on a Sustaining Focus (Health), or simply 12 Karma for Focused Concentration 3). So you lose 3 Karma and the ability to use that Sustaining Focus for an Increase [Attribute] or Prophylaxis spell (or your Focused Concentration 3, which ate up 12 Quality Karma, on any other Force 3 spell), and you gain 2.5 Initiative, 2 Reaction, 0.5 PP, and a spell slot. Throw in an extra PP for another 5 Karma, and you're at 3 extra Reaction and 3+3D6 extra Initiative, which is 1.5 more Initiative than a Force 5 Increase Reflexes spell (10 Karma and 20k, or 20 Karma for Focused Concentration 5 , to sustain) would give you, and doesn't require 5 hits on a spellcasting check or result in 5 Drain to soak.
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My desired Mystic Adept build: Intuition Tradition. 5 Intuition, 6 Willpower, 5 Reaction.
6 PP: Astral Perception (1), Improved Reflexes 3 (3.5), Improved Reaction (1), Combat Sense (0.5). 20 quality karma: Focused Concentration 5.
Spellslots: Increase Intuition, Increase Willpower, Heal, Improved Invisibility, Stealth, Stunbolt, Ball Lightning.
Every morning: Cast Increase Intuition Force 5 for 4 hits, 11 drain dice for 2S drain is easy. Now you're at 5[9] Intuition, 6 Willpower, 5[9] Reaction. In other words, 15 Drain Dice, 18+4d6 Initiative and 19 Dodge dice. And all that without using a Focus.
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I think at 30 karma it still isn't balanced at char gen compared to the mage. Think about it you are basically giving up focused concentration(maybe a smaller dip and a mentor spirit), 6 karma and astral. The mage has tapped out of positive qualities and you both are roughly at the same place potential karma wise left over, so for every power focus etc the mage takes the mystic adept can take as well and the only thing focused concentration would be used for is one of the effects the mystic adept will have as a permanent effect through his adept powers. The mystic adept needs a big change before its balanced.
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@Micheal: What I said was that I think that it should be given a chance as it's written by watching one grow through organic growth (not theory-craft builds) over the course of a full campaign before jumping to the conclusions that people are just from reading it and the short time that some saw at Origins. If someone really doesn't want to give it that chance, then they should--by all means--do whatever they need to for their table.
Those entirely against the Mystic Adept sound like, in my opinion, they're trying to say that the 'balance' for their table should be the 'balance' for all tables without exception.
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Nah, I'll settle for math. I can understand math better than mere words. I've proven that at 5 karma per Power Point, a Mystic Adept still outclasses many Magician builds but it's closer to a fair choice and comes at a price, so it's almost fair even if they clearly win against many builds.
At 2 karma they're broken, pure and simple. If I'm already better off than a Combat Mage at 30 karma for 6 PP, paying 12 means I got 30 more karma than the Combat Mage, and all that for sacrificing Astral Projection. There is no way Astral Projection is worth even close to 30 karma, no Foci addiction risks and 0.5 spare Power Points.
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Nah, I'll settle for math. I can understand math better than mere words. I've proven that at 5 karma per Power Point, a Mystic Adept still outclasses many Magician builds but it's closer to a fair choice and comes at a price, so it's almost fair even if they clearly win against many builds.
At 2 karma they're broken, pure and simple. If I'm already better off than a Combat Mage at 30 karma for 6 PP, paying 12 means I got 30 more karma than the Combat Mage, and all that for sacrificing Astral Projection. There is no way Astral Projection is worth even close to 30 karma, no Foci addiction risks and 0.5 spare Power Points.
You really want to just jump to conclusions based on a math proof, go ahead for your table. Me, I'm going to give it that chance as I haven't decided one way or the other.
Now, granted, I wouldn't play one but mainly because I'll either play a Magician or an Adept (don't really want both at once), but I'm going to give that chance just in case someone does play one the next time that I run (assuming I decide to again*).
* Am presently sworn off running for a while due to the last game I ran dying because of having a small group and losing a player for several months because of another player's actions in a different game run later in the week.
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What I said was that I think that it should be given a chance as it's written by watching one grow through organic growth (not theory-craft builds) over the course of a full campaign before jumping to the conclusions that people are just from reading it and the short time that some saw at Origins. If someone really doesn't want to give it that chance, then they should--by all means--do whatever they need to for their table.
You've also said "you're welcome to your opinions" (emphasis mine) about people who stated facts that prove the current character advancement system allows MAs to progress at the same rate as Magicians while also getting a free Power Point whenever they increase their Magic, and also allows them to progress at the same rate as Adepts while also receiving a boost to their Magic-based skills whenever they increase their Magic. So. There's that.
And no, "but that's not what they'll do" isn't a proper counterargument - if players choose to do something else, it just proves there's even better options for Mystic Adepts during character advancement than being Magician+ or Adept+, which isn't a good thing for Magicians and Adepts.
Those entirely against the Mystic Adept sound like, in my opinion, they're trying to say that the 'balance' for their table should be the 'balance' for all tables without exception.
Who, exactly, is entirely against Mystic Adepts according to you? Because if you're not naming specific people and explaining why you think they're completely anti-MA, it sounds like, in my opinion, you're trying to label people with valid arguments as naysayers.
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Valid arguments for their table. You can try to put words into my mouth all you want, but all I'm saying is that those of you screaming over this need to back up, take care of anything in it you consider an issue at your own tables and leave how it is in the book alone for any (no matter how many or how few) who wish to give it a chance as-is before coming to any conclusion.
The math may provide some indication, but it won't tell the whole story. The organic growth won't tell the whole story either, but together one can get a full and complete picture. That is why I would prefer to give that chance.
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Just to be clear: Your argument is that depending on the GM, Astral Projection IS worth being 30 effective karma and 0.5 PP behind on a Mystic Adept, as well as having a high Focus Addiction risk while the Mystic Adept doesn't give a damn, with mere chargen characters?
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I'm not making arguments other than to say that people need to back up and let tables other than their own to decide for themselves.
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Valid arguments for their table. You can try to put words into my mouth all you want
So when you say "it sounds like", that's not putting words in other people's mouths, but when I say "it sounds like", it is? Not to mention that a lot of these things are valid "as long as you don't house-rule it", which is a far broader concept than just "for their table".
The math may provide some indication, but it won't tell the whole story. The organic growth won't tell the whole story either, but together one can get a full and complete picture. That is why I would prefer to give that chance.
You keep hammering on this "give them a chance" and "math isn't everything", but it is a fact that the part of the story we already know is this:
THE STORY: blah blah blah, blah blah blah, Mystic Adepts can decide to match Magicians step-by-step during character advancement while also getting a free Power Point whenever they increase their Magic, blah blah blah, Mystic Adepts can decide to match Adepts step-by-step during character advancement while also getting a bonus to all their Magic skills the Adept can't use whenever they increase their Magic, blah blah blah.
The "organic growth" doesn't do jack about the fact that by the official rules Magicians and Adepts are inferior to Mystic Adepts when it comes to character advancement. And unless this is changed, it will still be true three months from now, six months from now, and so on, and so on, and it will still be true when it's 2075 in the real world. The only thing "giving them a chance" will do is make it harder to fix the situation, since players will have already advanced their characters.
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I'm not making arguments other than to say that people need to back up and let tables other than their own to decide for themselves.
You're absolutely right. Other tables have every right to determine whether to adjust Mystic Adepts. The math can only prove they're superior right now and that after errata they still are superior in many cases, it can't prove whether people will want to play it like that.
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Valid arguments for their table. You can try to put words into my mouth all you want
So when you say "it sounds like", that's not putting words in other people's mouths, but when I say "it sounds like", it is? Not to mention that a lot of these things are valid "as long as you don't house-rule it", which is a far broader concept than just "for their table".
The math may provide some indication, but it won't tell the whole story. The organic growth won't tell the whole story either, but together one can get a full and complete picture. That is why I would prefer to give that chance.
You keep hammering on this "give them a chance" and "math isn't everything", but it is a fact that the part of the story we already know is this:
THE STORY: blah blah blah, blah blah blah, Mystic Adepts can decide to match Magicians step-by-step during character advancement while also getting a free Power Point whenever they increase their Magic, blah blah blah, Mystic Adepts can decide to match Adepts step-by-step during character advancement while also getting a bonus to all their Magic skills the Adept can't use whenever they increase their Magic, blah blah blah.
The "organic growth" doesn't do jack about the fact that by the official rules Magicians and Adepts are inferior to Mystic Adepts when it comes to character advancement. And unless this is changed, it will still be true three months from now, six months from now, and so on, and so on, and it will still be true when it's 2075 in the real world. The only thing "giving them a chance" will do is make it harder to fix the situation, since players will have already advanced their characters.
Back up, do what is right for your table and stay out of it for others. That is all. You aren't "right" and you aren't "wrong" for not liking it as written. I'm not "right and I'm not "wrong" for not making a decision right now only a month after the PDF release and before the hard copy release.
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Back up, do what is right for your table and stay out of it for others. That is all. You aren't "right" and you aren't "wrong" for not liking it as written. I'm not "right and I'm not "wrong" for not making a decision right now only a month after the PDF release and before the hard copy release.
Oh no, you're definitely wrong for making the decision that it's fine as-is and hiding behind "give mystic adepts a chance". You can talk about tables all you want, but it doesn't change that.
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Back up, do what is right for your table and stay out of it for others. That is all. You aren't "right" and you aren't "wrong" for not liking it as written. I'm not "right and I'm not "wrong" for not making a decision right now only a month after the PDF release and before the hard copy release.
Oh no, you're definitely wrong for making the decision that it's fine as-is and hiding behind "give mystic adepts a chance". You can talk about tables all you want, but it doesn't change that.
That's the thing, I haven't made a decision, and I won't make a decision one way or the other this early in the edition.
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That's the thing, I haven't made a decision, and I won't make a decision one way or the other this early in the edition.
Really? Because it sure seems like you made the decision to spend 4 pages arguing against people who stated that the current system favors Mystic Adepts over Magicians and Adepts during character advancement (to the extent where they can get everything one side gets while also getting some of the perks from the other side), making it sound like their facts are "wild claims", acting as if a system-wide flaw is a table-specific issue, and telling them they shouldn't try to change the system, because apparently not complaining about flaws in the rules is what causes the flaws to be fixed.
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Hah! Told you you couldn't win, bro. He'll never dare to admit he can't back up his statements with facts, so he'll just keep nagging.
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Astral Projection + Spirit Summoning = Win. If someone wants to forego Astral Projection, I feel that the adept powers are fair trade. Astral Projection opens up a lot of potential, not just in power, but in RP. You want to be a slinger that is still rooted in the physical growth and development, congrats on being a mystic adept. Want to be a magical purist, congrats you're a shaman/hermetic.
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OH! Also, Spirit of Man + Innate Spell + Incr Attribute + Bound Spirit = equivalent buffs/benefits as Mystic Adept without any of the downside. Up to GM if it 'breaks the RP' of what the spirit would accept, etc. When you consider corps are basically enslaving spirits to guard duty, being a floating buff bot doesn't seem all that bad in comparison.
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OH! Also, Spirit of Man + Innate Spell + Incr Attribute + Bound Spirit = equivalent buffs/benefits as Mystic Adept without any of the downside. Up to GM if it 'breaks the RP' of what the spirit would accept, etc. When you consider corps are basically enslaving spirits to guard duty, being a floating buff bot doesn't seem all that bad in comparison.
I am pretty sure MAs can summon as well.
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Astral Projection + Spirit Summoning = Win. If someone wants to forego Astral Projection, I feel that the adept powers are fair trade. Astral Projection opens up a lot of potential, not just in power, but in RP. You want to be a slinger that is still rooted in the physical growth and development, congrats on being a mystic adept. Want to be a magical purist, congrats you're a shaman/hermetic.
Nothing in the current rules prevents mystic adepts from being just as good at summoning as full magicians
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OH! Also, Spirit of Man + Innate Spell + Incr Attribute + Bound Spirit = equivalent buffs/benefits as Mystic Adept without any of the downside. Up to GM if it 'breaks the RP' of what the spirit would accept, etc. When you consider corps are basically enslaving spirits to guard duty, being a floating buff bot doesn't seem all that bad in comparison.
Well except
a) spells that a spirit of man can cast are limited to spells you've learned, a mystic adept doesn't have that restriction so you are investing resources to get the ability points that way
b) the spirit is sustaining the spell probably will attract astral attention
c) a mystic adept can use bound spirit services for other things
d) if the spirit gets banished or taken out all of a sudden you've lost all the benefits
e) adept powers are usable when you're surprised and don't have a spirit sustaining
f) astral barriers etc cause issues...
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Astral Projection + Spirit Summoning = Win. If someone wants to forego Astral Projection, I feel that the adept powers are fair trade. Astral Projection opens up a lot of potential, not just in power, but in RP. You want to be a slinger that is still rooted in the physical growth and development, congrats on being a mystic adept. Want to be a magical purist, congrats you're a shaman/hermetic.
Nothing in the current rules prevents mystic adepts from being just as good at summoning as full magicians
not quite as good one of the ways for a mage to attack physical targets from the astral plane is by commanding a spirit. It is an advantage but a narrow enough of one I don't think it changes things.
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Astral Projection + Spirit Summoning = Win. If someone wants to forego Astral Projection, I feel that the adept powers are fair trade. Astral Projection opens up a lot of potential, not just in power, but in RP. You want to be a slinger that is still rooted in the physical growth and development, congrats on being a mystic adept. Want to be a magical purist, congrats you're a shaman/hermetic.
Nothing in the current rules prevents mystic adepts from being just as good at summoning as full magicians
Other than the fact that the Mage gets to spend his Karma directly towards being a better summoner, whereas the Mystad burns a bunch on power points?
A soft restriction is still a restriction (and from a design perspective, usually a better one to use).
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Astral Projection + Spirit Summoning = Win. If someone wants to forego Astral Projection, I feel that the adept powers are fair trade. Astral Projection opens up a lot of potential, not just in power, but in RP. You want to be a slinger that is still rooted in the physical growth and development, congrats on being a mystic adept. Want to be a magical purist, congrats you're a shaman/hermetic.
Nothing in the current rules prevents mystic adepts from being just as good at summoning as full magicians
not quite as good one of the ways for a mage to attack physical targets from the astral plane is by commanding a spirit. It is an advantage but a narrow enough of one I don't think it changes things.
There is nothing preventing a MA from commanding a spirit to do the same.
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...It doesn't put you back 12 or 30 Karma - it "puts you back"
The advantage of mystic is that you can get adept powers instead of spells. some adept powers are "worth" more than spells, some are not. Most adept powers make you physically better in some way. Basically 1pp worth of adept powers is "worth" 1 spell. There are exceptions, both ways.
Increased Reflexes is one such exception. This adept power is probably the selling point of going adept. It was even made cheaper in this edition. Very easy to get 3 ranks even at chargen while street sams are limited to standard (not even alpha) wired 2 (3 is way off limits) both on cost and availability. Very powerful. If you had the intention all a long to sustain an initiative boosting spell as a magician then you can take a shortcut playing mystic (and just get 1pp worth of astral perception, 3.5p worth of reflexes and 0.5pp worth of combat sense).
Increased Reflexes does not give you reaction for astral space, so for a magician that might or might not spend a lot of time astral projection it might not be as powerful as for a [physical] adept, a mystic hybrid - or even a magician that that slings most of his spells from the physical plane. Also; Between sustaining focus, metamagic and spending edge it might also become possible to sustain even more than +3d6 (creative players always find a way)... but not really at chargen.
If Increased Reflexes is the selling point of going adept or mystic;
Astral Projection is the selling point of going Magician.
If you don't (ab)use Astral Projection then you might as well go Mystic Adept as you will probably become faster and more powerful (or at least as powerful) at slinging spells on the physical plane.
There is nothing preventing a MA from commanding a spirit to do the same.
If I were playing a magician I would (among other things) summon and control spirits from astral plane - using my Astral Initiative.
Let the Street Sam and the Mystical Adept fight at the physical plane, risking instant death from severe lead poisoning...
If you don't (ab)use astral projection, then you might as well go mystic adept.
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OH! Also, Spirit of Man + Innate Spell + Incr Attribute + Bound Spirit = equivalent buffs/benefits as Mystic Adept without any of the downside. Up to GM if it 'breaks the RP' of what the spirit would accept, etc. When you consider corps are basically enslaving spirits to guard duty, being a floating buff bot doesn't seem all that bad in comparison.
... also why spirits are max 1 bound at our table. spirit herders = broken
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OH! Also, Spirit of Man + Innate Spell + Incr Attribute + Bound Spirit = equivalent buffs/benefits as Mystic Adept without any of the downside. Up to GM if it 'breaks the RP' of what the spirit would accept, etc. When you consider corps are basically enslaving spirits to guard duty, being a floating buff bot doesn't seem all that bad in comparison.
... also why spirits are max 1 bound at our table. spirit herders = broken
I'm sorry, you do what now? Isn't it 3,000¥ to do a binding ritual for a Force 6 spirit?
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i prefer the pcs to be the main chars, not their summons... but i appreciate in higher power games more than 2 spirits could be perfectly fine (1 bound, 1 unbound).
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So a mage has to pick which spelltype he wants supported? Wouldn't it be more fair to go with 1 spirit active at a time*? That way they can have a spirit support their illusions and swap it out with a combat spirit when all hell breaks loose. It's still >1.000 nuyen per service, so a fight with multiple spirits easily takes up thousands of nuyen. That's an easy 2 karma they're burning there.
*: Which is how I currently read the SR5 rules, so they might need a bit of FAQ there.
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Having some experience now with playing a Mystic Adept using the 5 karma per PP build, I am beginning to change my perception on the balance issue. At charGen the straight mage in our group has the definite spellcasting advantage because he could put his karma towards Foci to start, Because I had to spend my karma for PP I have a drawback in this department. I am a much more versatile character, but I would not categorize it as more powerful. He is as fast, (sometimes faster) than I, has superior spells (due to power foci), and is a superior summoner (again power foci). I have an edge in defense (Combat Sense), and his speed comes at a cost (reagents). Over all I think there is a good balance between them at CharGen. Post CharGen I can see the MysAd outdistancing the mage, but this is supposedly being addressed. Until we see those changes the assessment of balance in extended play is premature.
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Having some experience now with playing a Mystic Adept using the 5 karma per PP build, I am beginning to change my perception on the balance issue. At charGen the straight mage in our group has the definite spellcasting advantage because he could put his karma towards Foci to start, Because I had to spend my karma for PP I have a drawback in this department. I am a much more versatile character, but I would not categorize it as more powerful. He is as fast, (sometimes faster) than I, has superior spells (due to power foci), and is a superior summoner (again power foci). I have an edge in defense (Combat Sense), and his speed comes at a cost (reagents). Over all I think there is a good balance between them at CharGen. Post CharGen I can see the MysAd outdistancing the mage, but this is supposedly being addressed. Until we see those changes the assessment of balance in extended play is premature.
Was that 5 karma per PP just in chargen, or after chargen also? Because this kind of balance is exactly what we want to achieve. However, we also want to make it so Mystic Adepts cannot just be Mage+ or Adept+ if they build like one, but just get the free advantages of another.
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Was that 5 karma per PP just in chargen, or after chargen also? Because this kind of balance is exactly what we want to achieve. However, we also want to make it so Mystic Adepts cannot just be Mage+ or Adept+ if they build like one, but just get the free advantages of another.
So far It is just at CharGen. This early in the history of the game it is difficult to make the long term assessment on any empirical in play data. It is also premature from the standpoint of not having seen the full eratta on the MysAd yet.
I suspect that it will be a case of the MysAd slowly pulling ahead of the others long term, similar to how adepts are better at high karma over Sams. It is possible that the more focused mage will always be a better spellcaster because of the ability to focus his advancement, where the MysAd will always be tempted to diversify because that is his strength.
On a side note My friend and I ran some mock battles between my MysAd and his Dwarf Sam. The end results were 60-40 in favor of the MysAd, but the Sam was leading 3-1 until I found a routine that gave me a distinct advantage. Magic has the advantage over cyber, but only if the mage is played mistake free.
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So I am looking for ways to fix mystic adept from my game.
First having read here I think a mystic adept isn't bad if played as an adept with magic its mystic adept played as a mage.
Not going to rehash the statements here but my issue is I have stated a few mage npcs as mages and as mystic adept and for all of them the mystic adept does the same job only better. Combat mages with multiple actions and huge dodge pools. Sneaky mages as mystic adepts use adept powers instead of slung spells and foci for buffs and suddenly aren't glowing in astral. The list continues. But I recommend people who think mystic adepts are balanced make a mage character concept then try and make it again as a mystic adept and pick which one does the concept better.
So I am looking for ways to tone them down in my game before I let the players at the creation system and wanted some second opinions. I don't like the karma from adept powers rules even at 5 per. Mostly because the mystic adept still wins the karma game in the long run in a few ways. Compare the cost of buying a stat to getting it as a mystic adept power at 5 karma. Another one is look at non magic skills assuming your not a pure one trick pony. 2 skills for one 5 karma power point that can start at a higher level because its a bonus. In short each 5 karma at creation assuming you have an idea what you want to be good at can easily save you 15-20 karma later and lets you start with things earlier. Since most merits only cost double after creation you just have more xp in a pretty short amount of time.
So I am looking for alternatives and would like thoughts from people on what you would do if your st used them
1. Mystic adepts are phys adept with aspected magician. So you have to give up 2 of the 3 types of casting just like an aspected magician.
2. Based on the idea they present in the book that things should have a trade off. I was considering just not allowing mystic adepts to initiate. So the mage and phys adept can advance and specialize but you can't.
3. Making mystic adapt a priority more expensive so priority A gives you what the book gives at B and Priority B gives you what the book sets at C
4. Giving mystical adepts a magic stat penalty for both types at -2. So a mage with magic 6 counts as having magic 4 for spell force and only can have 4 points of physical adept powers.
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It looks like you're, for some reason, assuming that they can get "free skills" from Improved Ability. This is not true.
This power increases the Rating of a specific Combat, Physical, Social, Technical, or Vehicle skill per level of the power. You need to know the skill in order to buy this power for it, and you can’t buy it for skill groups. The maximum improvement possible is your current skill level x 1.5 (rounded up).
1- This one has potential.
2- Ridiculously punitive.
3- No comment due to not wanting a warning.
4- Gets close too what was done with it before with the split Magic using the FAQ rules-contradicting ruling. Will make the Mystic a non-option again.
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2 and 3 are rather insane. And 3 doesn't solve the progressing part.
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I like 1.
but not sure mystic would pay 5 karma per PP then since Mystic Adepts still pay a higher Magic Priority at chargen compared to [Physical] Adepts.
Also
Mystic Conjurer would not have counter spell as well as no astral projection
Mystic Sorcerer would not have spirits as well as no astral projection
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If you're concerned about Adepts in progression, why not simply have them only gain a power point after chargen when they choose a power point as their metamagic?
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Actually, the Hot Patch Errata is up. Here's what it says about MysAds.
Mystic Adepts
Power Points cost 5 Karma per point instead of 2 Karma per point, and may be purchased up to your starting magic rating.
Power Points are lost as normal along with Magic Rating if you lose points of Essence.
You do not get a Power Point automatically when you raise your Magic Rating.
You may gain additional Power Points by choosing to take a point during Initiation instead of a metamagic ability.
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Less ridiculous but still very strong. Trading Astral Projection and 20 karma for Improved Reflexes 3 and 0.5 PP of something else is still really good. It's just a bit harder to make a "physical" mystic adept now.
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Be more concerned about the Background count affecting all those fun powers.
Background Counts impose a negative Dice Pool penalty equal to their rating for all tests that are linked to or utilize magic in any way (i.e., spellcasting, summoning, assensing, any test made while astrally projecting, and any active skill that benefits from active adept powers such as killing hands, critical strike, great leap, or improved skills, etc). Dual Natured creatures and spirits suffer this penalty to all actions.
Know your area and pick your fights wisely. :P
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Having some experience now with playing a Mystic Adept using the 5 karma per PP build, I am beginning to change my perception on the balance issue. At charGen the straight mage in our group has the definite spellcasting advantage because he could put his karma towards Foci to start, Because I had to spend my karma for PP I have a drawback in this department. I am a much more versatile character, but I would not categorize it as more powerful. He is as fast, (sometimes faster) than I, has superior spells (due to power foci), and is a superior summoner (again power foci). I have an edge in defense (Combat Sense), and his speed comes at a cost (reagents). Over all I think there is a good balance between them at CharGen. Post CharGen I can see the MysAd outdistancing the mage, but this is supposedly being addressed. Until we see those changes the assessment of balance in extended play is premature.
Quirky. Our mystake adept has a power focus 3 at char gen. What he gave up on compared to the mage was focused concentration, but his adept abilities sub in for that fairly well, actually better than in most cases.
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Be more concerned about the Background count affecting all those fun powers.
Background Counts impose a negative Dice Pool penalty equal to their rating for all tests that are linked to or utilize magic in any way (i.e., spellcasting, summoning, assensing, any test made while astrally projecting, and any active skill that benefits from active adept powers such as killing hands, critical strike, great leap, or improved skills, etc). Dual Natured creatures and spirits suffer this penalty to all actions.
Know your area and pick your fights wisely. :P
How does Background count hurt the MA any more than the straight mage or adept?
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Be more concerned about the Background count affecting all those fun powers.
Background Counts impose a negative Dice Pool penalty equal to their rating for all tests that are linked to or utilize magic in any way (i.e., spellcasting, summoning, assensing, any test made while astrally projecting, and any active skill that benefits from active adept powers such as killing hands, critical strike, great leap, or improved skills, etc). Dual Natured creatures and spirits suffer this penalty to all actions.
Know your area and pick your fights wisely. :P
How does Background count hurt the MA any more than the straight mage or adept?
It would hit mystake adepts who spread their resources a bit harder I guess since it would be -X dice to pretty much all their actions while a pure mages shooting skill wont get hit by background count. But mage+ mystakes no real extra effect.
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At these prices they're fair, though I find Initiating for PP rather much, I myself would be fine with a constant cost for a PP after raising Magic. Still, this has its upsides and its downsides.
With the other hotfixes, I consider them somewhat balanced. They are superior to buffbuilds but not as good with other things.
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How does Background Count work for Mystic Adepts in 5E anyway? In 4E they just had the same amount of PP as their Magic Rating, so -X to Magic from Background Count meant they had to temporarily ditch X PP worth of adept powers, but in 5e, if you have 6 Magic and 4 PP, what does a Background Count of 2 mean for you?
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Again from the Hotpatch (which if you haven't read you should.)
Background Counts impose a negative Dice Pool penalty equal to their rating for all tests that are linked to or utilize magic in any way (i.e., spellcasting, summoning, assensing, any test made while astrally projecting, and any active skill that benefits from active adept powers such as killing hands, critical strike, great leap, or improved skills, etc). Dual Natured creatures and spirits suffer this penalty to all actions.
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What surprises me is that everyone is so quick to compare Mystic Adept to Adepts and Magicians, but people forget the ball of suck that is Aspected Magicians. If you think "Why take adept when I could go Mystic Adept?" what about Aspected Magicians to Magicians? To me it boils down to how much of your concept is based into magic (and in which areas). Mystic Adept isn't a small investment. I tried to build a Mystic adept Paracritter hunter who would use alchemy to imbue spells onto bullets etc. I ended up swapping ideas because in the end I just couldn't find a way to make the idea work while being as effective as I had hoped for.
When you sign on the line to play a Mystic Adept you end up with a character more heavily invested in magic than a normal adept. Points will be invested in magical skills you might have never had otherwise, certain stats change priority. etc. While as a rule I try not to "dump" stats, it becomes even harder to find a dump stat when you go from needing mostly physical to physical and some mental. This does open more options to your character, and typically options are power. The more choices you have access to in advancement will determine how much min-maxing can be done.
So is the mystic adept overpowered? Not more so than allowing players to use expansions instead of just the core rule book.
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What surprises me is that everyone is so quick to compare Mystic Adept to Adepts and Magicians, but people forget the ball of suck that is Aspected Magicians. If you think "Why take adept when I could go Mystic Adept?" what about Aspected Magicians to Magicians? To me it boils down to how much of your concept is based into magic (and in which areas). Mystic Adept isn't a small investment. I tried to build a Mystic adept Paracritter hunter who would use alchemy to imbue spells onto bullets etc. I ended up swapping ideas because in the end I just couldn't find a way to make the idea work while being as effective as I had hoped for.
When you sign on the line to play a Mystic Adept you end up with a character more heavily invested in magic than a normal adept. Points will be invested in magical skills you might have never had otherwise, certain stats change priority. etc. While as a rule I try not to "dump" stats, it becomes even harder to find a dump stat when you go from needing mostly physical to physical and some mental. This does open more options to your character, and typically options are power. The more choices you have access to in advancement will determine how much min-maxing can be done.
So is the mystic adept overpowered? Not more so than allowing players to use expansions instead of just the core rule book.
*applauds*
Finally someone using reason and not just going "my calculator says this is always better so it must be true".
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Why don't you give the errata rules a year before you pass judgement guns. :)
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Aspected Magicians also have been proven as being discriminated again, what with no free formulae. I'm not even talking about those because I pity them too much. :<
I'd comment on that before errata MAs are way bigger a deal, and honestly if it's in the SAME book it shouldn't be "if you want to play X, you should ALWAYS play Y instead", but A4BG just applauded you so I'm no longer allowed to participate in the MA debate in this topic.
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Why don't you give the errata rules a year before you pass judgement guns. :)
You that upset that Zombie just did that good a job at shooting the knee-jerk reactions in the rear-end? :P
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its not, always play Y for X, remeber please that MAs require more on the priority than mages and adepts...
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No offense to Zombie, but he just made the same argument we've heard before "But if you make a REALLY BADLY BUILT MA it's ONLY A LITTLE better than a Mage."
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its not, always play Y for X, remeber please that MAs require more on the priority than mages and adepts...
Uh, what? You mean the Mystic Adepts that are on exactly the same Priority as Magicians, and do not need Sustaining Foci for Increase Reflexes? (Which cost 16+'5' (spellslot) karma for +4+2d6 Initiative vs the 9 karma +Astral Projection an MA pays for +3+3d6 Initiative and +3 Reaction.)
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its not, always play Y for X, remeber please that MAs require more on the priority than mages and adepts...
They use the exact same priority as Magicians, actually: they're even grouped together as "Magician or Mystic Adept" in the table.
Why don't you give the errata rules a year before you pass judgement guns. :)
You that upset that Zombie just did that good a job at shooting the knee-jerk reactions in the rear-end? :P
The most knee-jerk reactions here are yours to any criticism of Mystic Adepts, since you still feel the need to use descriptions like "my calculator says this is always better so it must be true" to describe a common sense approach to the pre-errata character advancement rules.
Anyway, since the errata mean mystic adepts no longer have the options of 100%-Magician-with-a-bit-of-Adept-on-top or 100%-Adept-with-a-bit-of-Magician-on-top during character advancement (while still being able to go 100% Magician, if they so choose), I'm satisfied.
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just wondering, who has actually played a mystic adept under 5th?
I have. a troll mystic adept, or as I call him a troll shamanic adept since he follows Bear. if wondering, I took bonus to health spells for him.
because the concept was built around using a combat axe for a few options, during play he was very effective in his niche.
Counterspelling, healing, and close combat.
counterspelling focus (combat) and fair dice pool for spell defense
following bear, the bonus to healing helped.
weapon focus added to the close combat abilities
add in a few adept abilities that increase intiative, agility, increase ability with blades and critical strike with blades.
during combat, he was able to sneak up on foes and drop them fast (fast enough to have another player run away in fear), cast spells, and protect the team from combat spells
now the disad of following Bear did kick in when some NPCs under his protection got hurt, and I played it up.
one player asked if there was anything he con't do. I replied nothing.
mind you I did use up edge a few times as the dice turned sour some rolls.
he only has 5 spells, so I choose carefully on what I thought he may need.
in a small group, he would help balance things out bring the magic to the group.
in a large group, he can drop back to support role
I created him so I could get the feel for the new magic rules.
overpowered?? when I have a chance to play him along with a full mage AND full adept at the same time I will be able to truthfully answer that. I will say in his niche he is very strong.
he cannot shoot a gun, cannot hack. several skills are rank 1. cannot even drive.
the only reason I can see why he seemed strong to other players, over the course of a convention, was because the other player who ran a mage played him very timid, always waiting to the last moment/ minute to summon spirits, and lack confidence to cast spells at times. he did knock himself out one fight, though, when he went big several times.
think at the end of the day, it will depend on the player if the MA is truly overpowered or not
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I have not played one, we have one and a mage in our group. I play a street sam in this game, but it is fairly obvious that the mystic adept is just mage+ in our game.
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What surprises me is that everyone is so quick to compare Mystic Adept to Adepts and Magicians, but people forget the ball of suck that is Aspected Magicians. If you think "Why take adept when I could go Mystic Adept?" what about Aspected Magicians to Magicians? To me it boils down to how much of your concept is based into magic (and in which areas). Mystic Adept isn't a small investment. I tried to build a Mystic adept Paracritter hunter who would use alchemy to imbue spells onto bullets etc. I ended up swapping ideas because in the end I just couldn't find a way to make the idea work while being as effective as I had hoped for.
When you sign on the line to play a Mystic Adept you end up with a character more heavily invested in magic than a normal adept. Points will be invested in magical skills you might have never had otherwise, certain stats change priority. etc. While as a rule I try not to "dump" stats, it becomes even harder to find a dump stat when you go from needing mostly physical to physical and some mental. This does open more options to your character, and typically options are power. The more choices you have access to in advancement will determine how much min-maxing can be done.
So is the mystic adept overpowered? Not more so than allowing players to use expansions instead of just the core rule book.
I think Aspected Spellcasters are simply not worth considering at this time. It's always more important to fix something broken by being too powerful than something broken by being underpowered. Mystic Adepts needed the attention over aspected spellcasters for this reason. I'd still like to see them fixed, but I'm not counting on anything being done here. Aspected Conjurers are in a good spot, so it isn't all aspects that are thrown by the wayside.
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just wondering, who has actually played a mystic adept under 5th?
I'm playing a Mystic Adept in missions, so I even made my character using the 5 karma per PP rules.
Completely outclass the adept in the group. With 5 PP's, I got all of the skills I really wanted, including improved reflexes 3, which is the true gamechanger for adepts. (All my other skills are not combat related at all, since the character wasn't really optimized for combat. A lot of it was an object lesson in Mystic Adepts needing rebalancing.)
Can hold my own with the mage when it comes to spellcasting, although the mage also does summoning/binding. Had I put skill points (my A priority) into conjuration stuff, I could easily match the mage there too, but I put nothing into conjuration skills, since the character was actually designed originally as a sorcery adept anyway. So this was a self imposed limitation, not a limitation on the Mystic Adept itself.
BTW I went A Skills, B Attributes, C Magic, D Race, E Cash, which made for a very versatile character inspite of several self imposed nerfs that supported the backstory of the character.
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You know, I kinda want to see how the mage and adept are built there...
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1. Mystic adepts are phys adept with aspected magician. So you have to give up 2 of the 3 types of casting just like an aspected magician.
2. Based on the idea they present in the book that things should have a trade off. I was considering just not allowing mystic adepts to initiate. So the mage and phys adept can advance and specialize but you can't.
3. Making mystic adapt a priority more expensive so priority A gives you what the book gives at B and Priority B gives you what the book sets at C
4. Giving mystical adepts a magic stat penalty for both types at -2. So a mage with magic 6 counts as having magic 4 for spell force and only can have 4 points of physical adept powers.
1) This is one of my two favorite solutions to bring Mystic Adepts in line. The fact that this matches the original intent of mystic adepts when they were introduced makes this my favorite solution.
2) Not a fan of this one.
3) Outside of number 1, this is my favorite solution. However, when implementing this one, I'd probably be willing to go back to the 2 karma per PP method. The additional investment in priority is a bigger cost anyway.
4) It could possibly work, but I rank this as the 3rd best approach out of 4. 1 and 3 are much more elegant solutions.
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Be more concerned about the Background count affecting all those fun powers.
Background Counts impose a negative Dice Pool penalty equal to their rating for all tests that are linked to or utilize magic in any way (i.e., spellcasting, summoning, assensing, any test made while astrally projecting, and any active skill that benefits from active adept powers such as killing hands, critical strike, great leap, or improved skills, etc). Dual Natured creatures and spirits suffer this penalty to all actions.
Know your area and pick your fights wisely. :P
Actually, background count is FAR less punishing than in previous editions. Lower die pools is far less harsh than losing adept powers and foci. Sustaining foci and adepts in particular got much stronger with this change. Low powered mages also got way stronger.
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Actually, the Hot Patch Errata is up. Here's what it says about MysAds.
Mystic Adepts
Power Points cost 5 Karma per point instead of 2 Karma per point, and may be purchased up to your starting magic rating.
Power Points are lost as normal along with Magic Rating if you lose points of Essence.
You do not get a Power Point automatically when you raise your Magic Rating.
You may gain additional Power Points by choosing to take a point during Initiation instead of a metamagic ability.
So a mystic that start with magic 4 can buy up to 4 power points for 5 karma per point. Check.
then I read it as if you only buy 3 power points during chargen
...you can still buy the 4th point with 5 karma after chargen (up to your start magic rating)
However if you raise your magic to 5 you will still not be able to get a 5th power point
- even if you are willing to spend karma to get it.
The ONLY way to get that 5th power point is to initiate and pick power point as your metamagic ability.
A [Physical] Adept will become a much better [Physical] Adept than a Mystic Adept,
but out of chargen Mystic Adepts will have access to a few some very powerful utility magic and spirits.
(but that require that you get magic skills and mental attributes and spend karma on power points - and higher magic prio)
A Magician will not really become a much better mage than a Mystic.
Out of chargen a Mystic need to make sure he got magic 6 and (eventually) spend 30 karma to get 6 power points.
Mystic also does not get astral projection.
- No other differences really.
(Mystic also need a combination of metatype and magic priority that let them reach 6 magic during chargen - or at least 5 magic and spend 30 karma to reach magic 6 and wait until after chargen to spend karma to get power points)
So if you are willing to trade astral projection, astral perception and 6 spells worth of Karma
- for 6 power points (where astral projection could be one) then you should go mystic.
If you plan on starting with less than magic rating of 6 (due to other priorities) then Mystic is a much weaker alternative.
...the first 5 power points are very powerful (combat sense 1, improved reflexes 3, astral perception). After that it doesn't really seem matter. They are still good, but so are spells... Magicians start with astral perception for free and astral projection can be very very powerful depending on how you (ab)use it. Eventually a magician will find a way to sustain +3d6 initiative as well (or even more?), but right out of chargen that might be a bit tricky....
Mystic is not straight Mage+, Mystic is different.
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Assume "up to" means "up to and including" here. Bull's not a Rule Lawyer so he doesn't phrase himself 100% legalese clear.
So now we got MA beats Magician on some things (thanks to the IR power) but still has to pay significantly for it. With Background Count changed Sustaining Foci 1 are now a fair way for selfboosting too. So things got really interesting now and the Magicians have way to make up for the difference, and there are builds where Magician is better.
And NOW we can focus on MA vs Adept. :) Time to start the debate on those!
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agreed.
what i was aiming for was that you now can spend 5 karma to get one pp during chargen or 5 karma to get one pp post chargen
but only including up to, but not beyond, your start magic rating.
So if you only have magic 4 out of chargen you can never get more than 4pp with Karma
All other pp must come from selecting pp during initiation instead of metamagic
if i only have 4 magic during chargen it might be better to spend 25 karma to raise magic to 5 during chargen and spend 25 karma for 5 pp after chargen instead of spending 20 karma to get 4 pp at chargen but then forever being limited to 4 pp (plus pp you get if you select pp during initiation).
mystic adepts have a higher incitement to get a high start magic rating out of chargen than a magician.
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Oh, so you assume these rules mean you can buy the initial-max PP after chargen? I doubt that's the case, but let's ask Bull just in case.
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Oh, so you assume these rules mean you can buy the initial-max PP after chargen? I doubt that's the case, but let's ask Bull just in case.
Yes. Now we understand each other :)
Why else did they say "up to your starting magic rating"
Power Points cost 5 Karma per point instead of 2 Karma per point, and may be purchased up to your starting magic rating.
There [might] be two rules in there;
1) cost 5 Karma per point instead of 2 Karma per point
2) May be purchased up to your starting magic rating
This might be read as you can now always pay 5 Karma to buy pp, but always only up to your starting magic rating. So even if you raise your magic post chargen you can still only raise your pp up to the level of your starting magic rating.
Question is if you can spend karma to buy the pp up to your starting magic rating after chargen or if you have to do it during chargen with your leftover Karma and that once you are out of chargen you can never buy more pp for Karma. Even if you currently have less pp than your starting magic rating.
imo It make sense that you can buy pp with left over Karma during chargen and that you can buy pp (but still only up to your starting magic rating) with Karma post chargen.
but the text can be read both ways i think?
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It can, especially since Bull is not the type to rulelawyer his additions. I asked about it in the Hot Patch topic to settle the confusion. :) (And help the official Errata be more clear.)
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then I read it as if you only buy 3 power points during chargen
...you can still buy the 4th point with 5 karma after chargen (up to your start magic rating)
I don't think that's how it works, since the original rules state you can only get Power Points after chargen through raising your Magic and picking them as a metamagic while Initiating. I doubt the "hot patch" errata were meant to loosen the rules there.
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maybe not.
but then there is no way to get up to starting magic rating number of power points if you don't buy them all during chargen (does not really matter if you can buy them after chargen as you are still limited to your starting magic).
i just thought the text seem ambiguous, at least when they said that "starting magic".
I mean... they could have just said "magic rating" and "during chargen".
Shrug.
Well, the important part is that you can not get more than your starting magic rating power points without spending metamagic on power point during initiation. Buying pp with Karma pre or post chargen or not - That is still a pretty huge nerf to Mystics.
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There definedly should be a way for myssadds to be able to get power points other then at initiation, as IMO that far too punishing limit.
If the free point at magic raise is too good, they should have just added a cost to it not take it away completely.
For example:
"Mystic Adepts pay 50% extra karma for raising magic after chargen"
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There definedly should be a way for myssadds to be able to get power points other then at initiation, as IMO that far too punishing limit.
If the free point at magic raise is too good, they should have just added a cost to it not take it away completely.
For example:
"Mystic Adepts pay 50% extra karma for raising magic after chargen"
I suggested what amounts to 20% extra cost if you also want the Power Point, but 50% works too. :P
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I suggested what amounts to 20% extra cost if you also want the Power Point, but 50% works too. :P
[/quote]
The specific % might need to be adjusted, my general idea was that they should pay more for magic in general(not just if they also want the power point)
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With Background Count changed Sustaining Foci 1 are now a fair way for selfboosting too.
I was wrong with this statement. Only Increase Reflexes would work this way. Increase [Attribute] requires casting at a sufficient Force to be able to raise the attribute.
Anyway, here's what I would have done instead of Initiating:
- Mystic Adepts cannot get Metamagic options that are Adepts only.
- PP can max be Magic rating.
- 5 karma per PP at chargen, 10 karma per PP after chargen.
In other words, no Initiating for PP, if you raise your magic you can buy an extra PP but it is more expensive, just like positive qualities are more expensive after chargen. The number is somewhat comparable to the 20% (which is 7/8/9/etc).
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Anyway, here's what I would have done instead of Initiating:
- Mystic Adepts cannot get Metamagic options that are Adepts only.
- PP can max be Magic rating.
- 5 karma per PP at chargen, 10 karma per PP after chargen.
In other words, no Initiating for PP, if you raise your magic you can buy an extra PP but it is more expensive, just like positive qualities are more expensive after chargen. The number is somewhat comparable to the 20% (which is 7/8/9/etc).
I could get behind that as a solution, somewhat. However, this still makes the mystic adept a Mage+, since they still have the option to build as a mage just as good as a mage, trading out astral projection for the option of using power points.
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If I may, I'd like to add my 2¥ option. Mystic Adepts are strong in SR5, while this does come with some draw backs like not being able to naturally Astrally Percieving, never being able to Astral Project, and finally paying for points at 5 Karma per point. While going back to having to split their powers between Adept & Magician would make them "balanced" but weak. So assuming we can't desperate Magician from MysAd, we could say they don't get to pick between all Arcane skill groups. They would only be able to pick two. Also they would just receive their Magic level in spells instead Magic*2. They're not quite as good as a full magician, but they have adept powers to round them out.
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In defense of the new Mystic, if they build just like a mage, then they really are just a mage without Astral Projection. A Mystic NEEDS to buy PP if they want to compete, and if I read it right, they need to buy it in chargen, which means up to 30 less karma to get cool Mage stuff, and then if they want more, then need not take a metamagic at initiation.
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In defense of the new Mystic, if they build just like a mage, then they really are just a mage without Astral Projection. A Mystic NEEDS to buy PP if they want to compete, and if I read it right, they need to buy it in chargen, which means up to 30 less karma to get cool Mage stuff, and then if they want more, then need not take a metamagic at initiation.
That is the case now, Dracain, but most of this topic was before the hot patch errata removed their free Power Point if they increased their Magic, which made them able to go Adept+ or Magician+ during character advancement. With their character advancement nerf, I think that part is pretty much taken care of (although some think it's an overnerf).
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I'm cautiously optimistic about the balance point for MysAds at the moment.
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In defense of the new Mystic, if they build just like a mage, then they really are just a mage without Astral Projection. A Mystic NEEDS to buy PP if they want to compete, and if I read it right, they need to buy it in chargen, which means up to 30 less karma to get cool Mage stuff, and then if they want more, then need not take a metamagic at initiation.
That is the case now, Dracain, but most of this topic was before the hot patch errata removed their free Power Point if they increased their Magic, which made them able to go Adept+ or Magician+ during character advancement. With their character advancement nerf, I think that part is pretty much taken care of (although some think it's an overnerf).
I know that's how it is now, however I see someone post something along the lines of MA can't be Adept+, but they can still be Mage+, so I am just defending the updates. I do see how people think it may be overnerfed, and I kind of agree, I also think it's a bit weird how MAs in this edition are really being pushed into the Mage side, with Adept as backup, instead of being able to choose the ratio. Right now it seems MAs can be 80% Mage and 20% Adept, but if you want to turn it around you're going to have to pay heavily. Though 50/50 is still doable now with how it is, so at least that is good.
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I think mystic adepts should be over powered.
Say I wanted to make a character based off of the concept of Superman, a Jedi, Dragon Ball Z or some other weird superhero hybrid archetype. In SR4 I could make a Mystic Adept, but they'd be terrible at everything and it just wouldn't ever work. But now its actually viable.
Like if I wanted Superman, I'd pick the spells levitate, flamethrower (but say it looks like lasers coming out of my eyes), Ice Sheet (which looks like I'm breathing it out). The adept powers boost attribute, enhance perception, mystic armor, spell resistance, and probably a few other random things. Pick up an allergy to a rare mineral, blandness, and a warrior's code or assassin's creed, or both. I don't know, it sounds fun to me. How would Superman react in a world like Shadowrun? He clearly isn't the biggest fish in the sea.
Anyway, the game shouldn't be balanced around munchkins, but around making each archetype viable. And the way mystics used to be was not very viable.
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I think mystic adepts should be over powered.
(...)
Anyway, the game shouldn't be balanced around munchkins, but around making each archetype viable. And the way mystics used to be was not very viable.
So because Mystic Adepts weren't really viable in 4E, they should be boosted to the point where Magicians and Adepts aren't really viable? Nice.
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I think mystic adepts should be over powered.
Say I wanted to make a character based off of the concept of Superman, a Jedi, Dragon Ball Z or some other weird superhero hybrid archetype. In SR4 I could make a Mystic Adept, but they'd be terrible at everything and it just wouldn't ever work. But now its actually viable.
Like if I wanted Superman, I'd pick the spells levitate, flamethrower (but say it looks like lasers coming out of my eyes), Ice Sheet (which looks like I'm breathing it out). The adept powers boost attribute, enhance perception, mystic armor, spell resistance, and probably a few other random things. Pick up an allergy to a rare mineral, blandness, and a warrior's code or assassin's creed, or both. I don't know, it sounds fun to me. How would Superman react in a world like Shadowrun? He clearly isn't the biggest fish in the sea.
I wouldn't quite go this far, but the Awakened types being "graded" isn't that bad.
Such as:
Aspected < Adept = Magician < Mystic Adept
If a "munchkin" decides that for their particular style they don't want to play the 'weaker' types or feels that a 'more powerful' type makes another less of an option, that's between them and the rest of their table, but such a 'grading' system isn't inherently bad.
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I wouldn't quite go this far, but the Awakened types being "graded" isn't that bad.
Such as:
Aspected < Adept = Magician < Mystic Adept
The problem with that is the priority system's grading is Adept < Aspected < Magician = Mystic Adept, since Aspected Magicians get a lower Magic rating than Adepts for Priorities C and B, and Magicians and Mystic Adepts share the same Priority slot.
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I wouldn't quite go this far, but the Awakened types being "graded" isn't that bad.
Such as:
Aspected < Adept = Magician < Mystic Adept
The problem with that is the priority system's grading is Adept < Aspected < Magician = Mystic Adept, since Aspected Magicians get a lower Magic rating than Adepts for Priorities C and B, and Magicians and Mystic Adepts share the same Priority slot.
I chalk that up to a limitation of Priority. It would be much easier to show such a 'grading' with build points simply by having Mystic Adept being the most expensive, followed by Magician and Adept with Aspected being the cheapest.
Example: Build Point Proposal] (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11982.0)
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I think mystic adepts should be over powered.
Say I wanted to make a character based off of the concept of Superman, a Jedi, Dragon Ball Z or some other weird superhero hybrid archetype. In SR4 I could make a Mystic Adept, but they'd be terrible at everything and it just wouldn't ever work. But now its actually viable.
Like if I wanted Superman, I'd pick the spells levitate, flamethrower (but say it looks like lasers coming out of my eyes), Ice Sheet (which looks like I'm breathing it out). The adept powers boost attribute, enhance perception, mystic armor, spell resistance, and probably a few other random things. Pick up an allergy to a rare mineral, blandness, and a warrior's code or assassin's creed, or both. I don't know, it sounds fun to me. How would Superman react in a world like Shadowrun? He clearly isn't the biggest fish in the sea.
Anyway, the game shouldn't be balanced around munchkins, but around making each archetype viable. And the way mystics used to be was not very viable.
I agree it should not be balanced based on munchkins but it should not be balanced under the assumption your character would be built ineptly.
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I think mystic adepts should be over powered.
Say I wanted to make a character based off of the concept of Superman, a Jedi, Dragon Ball Z or some other weird superhero hybrid archetype. In SR4 I could make a Mystic Adept, but they'd be terrible at everything and it just wouldn't ever work. But now its actually viable.
Like if I wanted Superman, I'd pick the spells levitate, flamethrower (but say it looks like lasers coming out of my eyes), Ice Sheet (which looks like I'm breathing it out). The adept powers boost attribute, enhance perception, mystic armor, spell resistance, and probably a few other random things. Pick up an allergy to a rare mineral, blandness, and a warrior's code or assassin's creed, or both. I don't know, it sounds fun to me. How would Superman react in a world like Shadowrun? He clearly isn't the biggest fish in the sea.
Anyway, the game shouldn't be balanced around munchkins, but around making each archetype viable. And the way mystics used to be was not very viable.
I agree it should not be balanced based on munchkins but it should not be balanced under the assumption your character would be built ineptly.
From the examples that have been made, it can seem as though that people are claiming that if they're not "munchkin builds" then they are "built ineptly".
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Leaving aside that blatant lie: A munchkin-build of MA should be comparable in potential to a munchkin-build of Magician, while a non-munchkin-build of MA should be comparable in potential to a munchkin-build of Magician. Otherwise they shouldn't be of the same level.
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Leaving aside that blatant lie: A munchkin-build of MA should be comparable in potential to a munchkin-build of Magician, while a non-munchkin-build of MA should be comparable in potential to a munchkin-build of Magician. Otherwise they shouldn't be of the same level.
So, lacking any other argument, you resort to the personal attack of calling someone a liar on a post that did not state anything definitively, but merely said that something can seem to be a certain way? Not to mention that the following statement relies on a premise of Priority being completely perfect, instead casting the "blame" solely on the character type--no system is or can ever be completely perfect.
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Trust me, dude, you do not want to start an argument about how things "can seem" - aside from it being a cheap shot, the topic will get locked in 12 seconds once people start responding in kind.
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Trust me, dude, you do not want to start an argument about how things "can seem" - aside from it being a cheap shot, the topic will get locked in 12 seconds once people start responding in kind.
Perhaps, but he doesn't have the right to call someone a liar when they were careful not to make a statement as an absolute.
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So you carefully phrased a nasty remark as an insinuation instead of a claiming of facts. That doesn't exactly help.
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So you carefully phrased a nasty remark as an insinuation instead of a claiming of facts. That doesn't exactly help.
No, I said that someone could hold that opinion, which is something that is perfectly possible.
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Whether or not the difference is sufficient is another question, but can we stop pretending that a well built Mystic Adept can possibly be as good at being a Mage as a well built Mage? A well built Mage is making VERY substantial use of their chargen Karma, so spening that on Power Points directly diminishes the Mystic Adept's abilities as a Mage.
Or, in other words, "mage+" is completely inaccurate per definition.
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Sigh. Can we just drop it and go back to discussing the topic?
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Whether or not the difference is sufficient is another question, but can we stop pretending that a well built Mystic Adept can possibly be as good at being a Mage as a well built Mage? A well built Mage is making VERY substantial use of their chargen Karma, so spening that on Power Points directly diminishes the Mystic Adept's abilities as a Mage.
Or, in other words, "mage+" is completely inaccurate per definition.
I completely agree, at this point I think Mystics are rather well balanced, but until someone starts busting out numbers, we'll have to see how it works out. It seems to be balanced on the surface though, at the very least.
Sigh. Can we just drop it and go back to discussing the topic?
Agreed, I don't think any of us want this topic to be locked. I think it would be best if we all just calm down and focus on seeing if the new MA is balanced or not, and if it is not, what may be possible fixes, either as house-rules or errata.
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Whether or not the difference is sufficient is another question, but can we stop pretending that a well built Mystic Adept can possibly be as good at being a Mage as a well built Mage? A well built Mage is making VERY substantial use of their chargen Karma, so spening that on Power Points directly diminishes the Mystic Adept's abilities as a Mage.
Or, in other words, "mage+" is completely inaccurate per definition.
I think that using things like "mage+" and the like are basically an attempt to create stronger feelings leaning toward the side of those arguing on the side that the MA is 'overpowered'. If I remember right, it first popped up when that point about Mystic Adepts having less of that character generation karma first came up.
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It's a large group of builds that's seriously problematic under the pre hotpatch system. Most of which are either in the Mage+ or Mage+/Utility field, but not all.
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Sure, but I was under the impression that we've been discussing based on the 5 Karma cost. The hotpatch does help with a lingering issue with progression, though.
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Whether or not the difference is sufficient is another question, but can we stop pretending that a well built Mystic Adept can possibly be as good at being a Mage as a well built Mage? A well built Mage is making VERY substantial use of their chargen Karma, so spening that on Power Points directly diminishes the Mystic Adept's abilities as a Mage.
Or, in other words, "mage+" is completely inaccurate per definition.
All I can say is in my game he Mage and the mystic are almost identical builds. The Mage has focused concentration and 1 more spell the mystic 6 points in pp otherwise identical builds. And so far he is playing like a Mage +. Cant say what will happen down the line with the hot fix but currently it looks Mage+ to me as the 5 points in pp after astral perception seem more effective in most cases than focused concentration.
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Whether or not the difference is sufficient is another question, but can we stop pretending that a well built Mystic Adept can possibly be as good at being a Mage as a well built Mage? A well built Mage is making VERY substantial use of their chargen Karma, so spening that on Power Points directly diminishes the Mystic Adept's abilities as a Mage.
Or, in other words, "mage+" is completely inaccurate per definition.
All I can say is in my game he Mage and the mystic are almost identical builds. The Mage has focused concentration and 1 more spell the mystic 6 points in pp otherwise identical builds. And so far he is playing like a Mage +. Cant say what will happen down the line with the hot fix but currently it looks Mage+ to me as the 5 points in pp after astral perception seem more effective in most cases than focused concentration.
And this is what we're trying to iron out. I am certain with all the clever optimizers we have we can figure something out.
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Sure, but I was under the impression that we've been discussing based on the 5 Karma cost. The hotpatch does help with a lingering issue with progression, though.
Allforbigguns seems to be arguing that it never should have been changed from 2.
I think at hotpatch levels Mysads are just about perfect. Capable of being effective in either sphere, without surpassing the specialists.
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I think mystic adepts should be over powered.
(...)
Anyway, the game shouldn't be balanced around munchkins, but around making each archetype viable. And the way mystics used to be was not very viable.
So because Mystic Adepts weren't really viable in 4E, they should be boosted to the point where Magicians and Adepts aren't really viable? Nice.
Mages and adepts are viable. Go over to some of the Street Sam threads and see how they're all saying they're going to roll adepts or mages now because their Sammy has to worry about being hacked, and how that's so game breaking. Go see how combat mages are totally gimped and how they're all now going to roll Sammies because Sammies have more dice and don't have to worry about drain. Or how everyone is saying the game is now decker run and how they're the best ever.
There isn't any archetype that isn't viable. Even mystic adepts were somewhat playable in SR4, but if they get hit to hard with that nerf bat they'll barely be playable again. You should always aim for a fun concept, not for a munchkin super build. Not all parts of the game are going to be equal. A mage will be able to handle astral threats better than a mystic any day of the week, by simply being able to project. Adepts will be better at the physical side of things because they won't have to worry about mental stats at all. And a mystic that doesn't put any points into mental stats to try and be a adept with spells is going to have a harder time since they'll be damaging themselves with drain to just use those spells. Will the mystic have an advantage over a physical adept? Not always, but he'll have more versatility so probably will more often, and that's just the way the cookie crumbles sometimes.
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Whether or not the difference is sufficient is another question, but can we stop pretending that a well built Mystic Adept can possibly be as good at being a Mage as a well built Mage? A well built Mage is making VERY substantial use of their chargen Karma, so spening that on Power Points directly diminishes the Mystic Adept's abilities as a Mage.
Or, in other words, "mage+" is completely inaccurate per definition.
I think that using things like "mage+" and the like are basically an attempt to create stronger feelings leaning toward the side of those arguing on the side that the MA is 'overpowered'. If I remember right, it first popped up when that point about Mystic Adepts having less of that character generation karma first came up.
If you'd actually paid any attention to my posts while you were arguing with me about them, you'd know that I, at least, use "Mage+" and "Adept+" to mean precisely that: all the things an Magician resp. Adept gets at the same cost, with some extras thrown in for free. I also used those terms specifically for the pre-errata character advancement part.
I think mystic adepts should be over powered.
(...)
Anyway, the game shouldn't be balanced around munchkins, but around making each archetype viable. And the way mystics used to be was not very viable.
So because Mystic Adepts weren't really viable in 4E, they should be boosted to the point where Magicians and Adepts aren't really viable? Nice.
Mages and adepts are viable.
With the hot patch errata they are, yes, but before, the only real reason to go Magician long-term was Astral Projection. Besides, my point was that you said Mystic Adepts should be overpowered, but making them overpowered (not just viable, overpowered) would make Adepts and Magicians not viable.
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Whether or not the difference is sufficient is another question, but can we stop pretending that a well built Mystic Adept can possibly be as good at being a Mage as a well built Mage? A well built Mage is making VERY substantial use of their chargen Karma, so spening that on Power Points directly diminishes the Mystic Adept's abilities as a Mage.
Or, in other words, "mage+" is completely inaccurate per definition.
All I can say is in my game he Mage and the mystic are almost identical builds. The Mage has focused concentration and 1 more spell the mystic 6 points in pp otherwise identical builds. And so far he is playing like a Mage +. Cant say what will happen down the line with the hot fix but currently it looks Mage+ to me as the 5 points in pp after astral perception seem more effective in most cases than focused concentration.
Which tells me that the Mage isn't sufficiently well built. I'm starting to think Focused Concentration 6 is a pretty poor choice, actually.
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Which tells me that the Mage isn't sufficiently well built. I'm starting to think Focused Concentration 6 is a pretty poor choice, actually.
I'd be more a fan of Focused Concentration if it could be split. (For example, level 6 being able to sustain 6 force 1 effects, 2 force 3, 3 force 2, etc.)
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Whether or not the difference is sufficient is another question, but can we stop pretending that a well built Mystic Adept can possibly be as good at being a Mage as a well built Mage? A well built Mage is making VERY substantial use of their chargen Karma, so spening that on Power Points directly diminishes the Mystic Adept's abilities as a Mage.
Or, in other words, "mage+" is completely inaccurate per definition.
All I can say is in my game he Mage and the mystic are almost identical builds. The Mage has focused concentration and 1 more spell the mystic 6 points in pp otherwise identical builds. And so far he is playing like a Mage +. Cant say what will happen down the line with the hot fix but currently it looks Mage+ to me as the 5 points in pp after astral perception seem more effective in most cases than focused concentration.
Which tells me that the Mage isn't sufficiently well built. I'm starting to think Focused Concentration 6 is a pretty poor choice, actually.
I think its pretty damn awesome, mainly because of he focus addiction rules. Now if reagents allowing you to bypass focus limits is a intended balancing feature and not rules twinkery anything past probably 3 is a waste. But the next 12 karma would not change much IMO because they both had power focus 3 which is the big karma add for mages.
Edit to add, if you have to min/max to the nines to be a better mage than the mystic adept there is a issue anyways. Before he even spends karma the mage should be solidly better than the mystic adept at being a mage, the karma should widen the gap. If the gap is so narrow that 30 karma is all that widens it the gap is far far too narrow.
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The mage should use Focused Concentration for an Increase Attribute spell, while using a Sustaining Focus Force 1 with Reagents for Increase Reflexes. Increase Attribute spells are a big exception that don't work with the SFF1+Reagents trick.
Better mage partially includes Astral Projection and Astral Perception. The first the MA loses, the second he pays 5 karma for. So the MA is behind at that point, and has to make up for it by spending karma on PP, which is karma not spent on a power focus and such.
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If the only difference is astral projection and then 30 karma the gap is far too small. Yous should have to build to fail to make a mage who is worse at spell casting, summoning and rituals than a mystic adept. Right now if you optimize you might get a mage who is somewhere between equal as a mage to a msytic adept to maybe slightly better, when the starting point should be solidly better. Anything less than that and the answer to the question why be a mage when a mystic adept is available is don't be one. and yes role playing blah, blah for the people who will inevitably bring that up in a game balance discussion.
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Maybe we should hold a contest in another topic? Take a few different types of magician builds and make an as-much-comparable-as-possible ma build of each version, see how big the gap is? I've seen people argue that their magician was able to spend karma on a power focus and thus outmagiced the MA.
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Initiation should be allowed at Chargen. In this way, the MA and the Mage get one more thing they'd really want to nab for Karma, but between PP and Foci, the MA is running a lot shorter than the Mage. This would balance it somewhat, I feel, especially if you're allowed to use 1 of your special attribute points to then buy your Magic up to 7, just like that 1 example text in the character creation rules that has a character who uses the Exceptional Attribute quality use 1 of his attribute points to buy up to his new maximum right away.
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Initiation is something you accomplish after putting actual effort into things, using the experience you gathered as a runner to deepen your knowledge of the ways of magic. It is one of the fair limits of chargen, just like you're limited to one hard-capped stat and can only raise skills to 6 with skillpoints. And honestly, all you'd be doing is giving the Magician more options at chargen that they simply pay karma for, it doesn't compensate for the effects of PP.
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Maybe we should hold a contest in another topic? Take a few different types of magician builds and make an as-much-comparable-as-possible ma build of each version, see how big the gap is? I've seen people argue that their magician was able to spend karma on a power focus and thus outmagiced the MA.
That might show something bit I'll point out in our game the MA has the same rating 3 power focus as the mage.
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I want an Intuition tradition. :< Then I can get a near-constant 15 drain dice, 18+4d6 initiative and 19 dodge dice straight out of chargen. And a lousy 12 summoning and 12 spellcasting, and a spell defense of 6. Not really that big a deal.
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I honestly hope they don't bring intuition traditions back. .Intuition is too valuable on its own, making it a drain stat is a bit much.
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Why? As magician you'd suck at astral combat, your social skills are worse of, your mental limit is lower, your arcana gets less success, etc. And unlike Charisma you can't get a race that boosts Intuition, and you can't trade in Essence for a massive boost either.
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Edit to add, if you have to min/max to the nines to be a better mage than the mystic adept there is a issue anyways. Before he even spends karma the mage should be solidly better than the mystic adept at being a mage, the karma should widen the gap. If the gap is so narrow that 30 karma is all that widens it the gap is far far too narrow.
This is what I was saying, and I still think it can be a problem, but anything more and overnerfing is a serious possibility and something we want to avoid. While I do think that specialists should always be solidly better then the jack-of-all-trades, I think that if people want to consider adjustments, they should look at ways to give the Mage and Adept more distinct advantages over the Mystic in their area of expertis instead of nerfing the Mystic any further.
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Magicians and Mystic Adepts seem fine right now. Each has their way to excel. Adepts and Aspected Magicians, on the other hand, I do not know yet.
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Magicians and Mystic Adepts seem fine right now. Each has their way to excel. Adepts and Aspected Magicians, on the other hand, I do not know yet.
I will say as a Phys Adept playing in a street level game, I am quite happy with rolling 20+ Dice out of chargen for SMGs. After a few runs, doing same for Rifles. Not too shabby at stealth and melee either. Also love that the Adept Reflex skill gives + Reaction, not just + initiative like the mage version. Adepts are not slouches, by any means. Especially considering the hard nerf given to (imho) Street Sams.
I don't really see Mystic Adept as 'OP', simply because that Karma could be used elsewhere.
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Now that they don't get free PP and they pay a decent price for PP, they are definitely a nice choice now with their own builds that they excel in and builds that other characters excel in.
Now to just fix Aspected Magicians.
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Phys Ads are awesome, but not OP in this edition.
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The hotpatch does help with a lingering issue with progression, though.
I find it a bit distasteful that (in the hotpatch) MsyAds don't get a power point per magic increase and *have* to rely on metamagics.
Honestly, if 5 karma is equal to a power point during character creation, then it should be equal to one after character creation too - so maybe it costs that 5 more karma to get the power point when you increase magic. Not getting it altogether makes the Mystic adept not really a blend of the two character types and forces a definite choice in one direction or another.
I think what what I learned about game balance in 3.5 D&D with Mystic Theurges (Wizard/Cleric hybrid Prestige class), is that 2/3 the power of both classes is still underpowered. I think the Mystic Adept in SR5 is more than 2/3 the power of a Caster and more than 2/3 the power of an adept, and that's *good* for game balance. A half/half split didn't work (see SR4), so something better than that was needed.
I think that 5 karma is pretty good for balance; I'd like to see them extend that to post creation as well.
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Huh I found mystic thurges powerful enough in 3.5 people who complained about the 2/3 power never give any value to the ridiculous versatility gained. and honestly the mystic adept split in 4e worked fairly well as long as you didn't do an even split. they may have been slightly under powered requiring a bit more optimization to work as well as others but they had a huge range of versatility which is just as valuable as your spell hitting a bit harder. People play super versatile guy then complain that they only hit 95% as hard as the specialist while the specialist has 50% of the versatility not 95%.
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I'd make it 10 karma after chargen, treating it like a positive quality when it comes to costs. Encourages them to take as many as possible at chargen. I disagreed with making them Initiative for PP, yes, I think that option shouldn't even be available to them. But all in all it's a matter of deciding how to balance them, and this is one of the two ways they could do it after chargen. Both options have their own downsides and upsides.