Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: phydaux42 on <07-21-13/2247:05>
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To get the fill benefit of a smartlink, what enhancements does a PC need?
As I understand it the PC needs:
A gun with a Smartlink (built in or underbarrel)
A commlink
One of the following - Cyberglasses, cybergoggles, cybercontacts, cybereyes with smartlink as one of the options, or a datajack.
They need to run the smartlink and other devices through the commlink in order to get any bonus to dice pool.
Using the smartlink gives you +2 to accuracy. Glasses, goggles or contacts give you +1 to dice pool, cybereyes or datajack gives you +2 dice.
You can skip the commlink if you run a wire from your gun to your datajack or glasses/goggles.
Right?
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You need the Smartlink implanted, or to have a datajack and wireless active to get the FULL benefits
of the Smartlink(i.e., the stuff that operates if you have DNI with it)
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Smartlink isn't listed as stand alone headware, only as an upgrade to cybereyes.
Mostly my point is that a PC will need either the smartlink upgrade to their cybereyes OR a datajack.
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and all that gives you is +2 acc & +2 dice. Or you could run a laser sight for +1 acc & +1 dice and you wouldn't need any extra 'ware.
I'm thinking the low rent option will be a lot more popular this edition.
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Smartlink isn't listed as stand alone headware, only as an upgrade to cybereyes.
Mostly my point is that a PC will need either the smartlink upgrade to their cybereyes OR a datajack.
Take a look at the table on page 454. If you have it implanted without the Cybereyes, it is 0.2 essence(though,
you should also need the Image Link that comes free with eyes, so it would cost an extra 0.1 essence and 1K
nuyen).
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You don't need a commlink. Your gun will communicate with your eyes or goggles just fine on them own, in SR5.
You need smartlink. Either external p.444 or, for better effect, internal p.453.
W only a data jack wout smartlink you can change fire mode and eject clip as fee action p.424. This does not require smartgun.
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I benefit of the subject here to ask the difference between a smartgun (the one you pay x2 NY) and the smartlink module.
I admit i have some difficulties to see where it is different.
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You don't need a commlink. Your gun will communicate with your eyes or goggles just fine on them own, in SR5.
But, without a Commlink, it is not Wireless Enabled, as it cannot access the Matrix. So, you need a Commlink to get
the full benefits.
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Every devices can access the Matrix on it's own. The comlink is just here to add to the security of the device if you slave it to the link' :)
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^This
(You don't need a data jack either. Not to get all bonuses.)
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(You don't need a data jack either. Not to get all bonuses.)
To get the ones that need DNI, you need either a datajack or an implanted Smartlink to get the DNI.
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adding to that, do you get all the smartlink boni also if you´re a rigger jumped into a drone with a mounted gun on it?
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(You don't need a data jack either. Not to get all bonuses.)
To get the ones that need DNI, you need either a datajack or an implanted Smartlink to get the DNI.
Yes.
But to get bonus from smartgun you only need a smartlink (internal or external). Nothing else.
Just a Datajack wout smartlink does not give you smartgun buffs.
Just a Datajack do give you firearms buffs. Eject clip and change mode as fee action.
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So, the entire smartgun system consist of:
- Smartgun (modified version of a gun that you pay x2)
- Smartlink (Internal or not that permit to make the interface possible with HUD, and so gain bonus)
Am i right here ?
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But, without a Commlink, it is not Wireless Enabled, as it cannot access the Matrix. So, you need a Commlink to get
the full benefits.
Are you running a cable from you gun to your smartlink?
No ofcource you arent, you connect the gun to it wirelesly throught the matrix, ergo no commlink needed for wireless(but you would be crazy to skip all defence that the commlink offers)
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If you run cable to your internal smartlink you need a data jack.
If you want to use better firewall for your smartgun you can either slave it to your decker's cyberdeck or your own commlink.
You need smartgun on your weapon. Internal or external as a accessory.
You need smartlink. Internal or external in goggles.
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Pages 433, 444, and 439: the minimum necessary requirements are to have a smartgun equipped gun, a smartlink equipped imaging system, and a way for them to communicate, which can be a cable or a DNI (the cheapest solution to which is trodes, which require a commlink or cyberdeck unless you have GM permission). Provided you have these three things, the benefits are:
1) +2 Acc.
2) Wireless on, imaging system is not an implant: +1 die.
3) Wireless on, imaging system is an implant: +2 dice.
As a reminder, "wireless on" means on the Matrix by definition.
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Pages 433, 444, and 439: the minimum necessary requirements are to have a smartgun equipped gun, a smartlink equipped imaging system, and a way for them to communicate, which can be a cable or a DNI (the cheapest solution to which is trodes, which require a commlink or cyberdeck unless you have GM permission). Provided you have these three things, the benefits are:
1) +2 Acc.
2) Wireless on, imaging system is not an implant: +1 die.
3) Wireless on, imaging system is an implant: +2 dice.
As a reminder, "wireless on" means on the Matrix by definition.
My character has a smartgun, goggles with a smartlink and a commlink. what bonus does he receive?
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I did a search because I was wondering why I saw a bunch of character with smartlinked goggles AND a datajack or other DNI.
Here is my source of confusion:
The smartgun features are accessed either by universal access port cable to an
imaging device (like glasses, goggles, or a datajack for someone with cybereyes) or by a wireless connection working in concert with direct neural interface.
So a Smartgun get's all benefits if the wireless is on and the character has either 'trodes or a datajack according to the RAW.
Why then does everyone also buy cybereyes or eyewear and use precious capacity (at worse availability if during creation) to buy a redundant smartlink system that doesn't even function as well as when using the wireless ability?
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The goggles/glasses/contacts/monical/helmet (external) version of smartlink only gives a +1 dice pool bonus as part of the smartgun wireless bonus while the cyberware version gives +2 dice pool bonus as part of the smartgun wireless bonus. You only get the accuracy +2 bonus if you have a smartlink (the sentence right before the above quote on page 433.
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I did a search because I was wondering why I saw a bunch of character with smartlinked goggles AND a datajack or other DNI.
Best reason to have a datajack and smartlink goggles is to get the noise reduction wireless bonus to avoid noise turning off the wireless bonuses of the smartgun+smartlink system.
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1) you need a smartgun and a smartlink
- Having a smartgun (on your firearm) + smartlink (in goggles or your eyes) give your weapon +2 accuracy.
1a) smartlink is either external (goggles), this give +1 attack pool but only if wireless.
1b) smartlink can be internal (capacity in cybereyes or retinal modification to natural eyes), this give +2 attack pool but only if wireless.
2) you need a way to display the information from your smartlnk
- camera feed to fire around corners, ammo counter and type, heat buildup etc.
2a) you can display the information on your eyes with an image link (in goggles or your eyes).
2b) you can display the information inside your head with DNI (easiest way to get DNI is with a data jack or trodes).
3) you need to access the features
- Eject clip without touching the weapon, change fire mode without touching the weapon, fire the gun without pulling the trigger etc.
3a) smartgun -> Image link can be wired to goggles or data jack. Take a simple action to eject clip or change fire mode (AROs).
3b) smartgun -> DNI must be wireless and normally to trodes or data jack. Take a free action to eject clip or change fire mode (mental).
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So a Smartgun get's all benefits if the wireless is on and the character has either 'trodes or a datajack according to the RAW.
Why then does everyone also buy cybereyes or eyewear and use precious capacity (at worse availability if during creation) to buy a redundant smartlink system that doesn't even function as well as when using the wireless ability?
Because for some reason they hid critical information for the smartgun system in the smartlink item description.
Without a smartlink, a smartgun system just sends out data that isn’t received by anyone and has no effect.
So you have to have a smartlink for a smartgun system to work and the only way smartlinks are available is as cyberware or in an imaging device.
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My character has a smartgun, goggles with a smartlink and a commlink. what bonus does he receive?
You normally need to manually touch your weapon to eject your clip taking the simple action Remove Clip and to change fire mode with the simple action Change Fire Mode.
If you have a cable between your smartgun and your goggles you get live camera feed to fire around corners without exposing yourself for -3 dice, ammo counter and ammo type information, heat buildup etc. (this is represented with +2 accuracy). You also get the ability to change weapon fire mode, eject clip and fire the weapon without physically touching the weapon (and instead moving around AROs in your Augmented Reality using the simple action Change Device Mode).
If you use wireless between your smartgun and your goggles you get all the above plus +1 attack pool.
If you had internal smartlink then you would get +2 attack pool instead of +1 when running wireless ON.
If you use wireless and had DNI (trodes or data jack) you would also the ability to eject clip and change fire mode with the free actions Eject Smartgun Clip and Change Linked Device Mode, using mental commands.
(You don't need the commlink)
I did a search because I was wondering why I saw a bunch of character with smartlinked goggles AND a datajack or other DNI.
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Why then does everyone also buy cybereyes or eyewear and use precious capacity (at worse availability if during creation) to buy a redundant smartlink system that doesn't even function as well as when using the wireless ability?
Smartlink is required for your smartgun to give you any benefit at all. You need a smartlink (either internal or external).
DNI It is not required in addition to external smartlink goggles, but if you have data jack or other DNI (and don't connect your smartgun with a cable) you can use mental commands to control functions such as eject clip and change fire mode as a free action instead of a simple action.
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If the weapon has an imaging scope (capacity 3), you can put the smartlink in that, eliminating the need for eye replacement or other headware completely. Add trodes as mentioned above (or nanopaste?), and you pretty much get
all most of the benefits without the essence loss.
[By which I meant changing fire modes, ejecting clips, etc., not the bonus attack dice, which aren't lost, just reduced. The only thing you don't get is the ability to see around corners with your cyber-eye-on-a-stick. ]
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If the weapon has an imaging scope (capacity 3), you can put the smartlink in that, eliminating the need for eye replacement or other headware completely. Add trodes as mentioned above (or nanopaste?), and you pretty much get all the benefits without the essence loss.
Sorry, you are wrong: you need to pay Essence to gain the +2 wireless bonus.
Wireless: A wireless smartlink provides a dice pool bonus to all attacks with the weapon: +1 if you’re using gear with a smartlink or +2 if you’re using an augmentation for which you paid Essence.
Emphasis mine.
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Yes
Well, you only get +1 dice pool bonus to all attacks with the weapon instead of +2 dice pool bonus, but as long as your weapon is wireless ON and your trodes provide you with DNI I see no reason why you would not get all the other benefits that a smartgun system can provide.
Removing or losing your trodes however, require that you now look through the imaging scope to see the ammo counter, ammo type, heat buildup etc (represented by the +2 accuracy bonus) and you no longer have augmented reality.
If you equip your imaging scope with an Image Link then you can use that for Augmented Reality to eject clip, switch fire mode or fire the weapon (but with a simple action since you don't have DNI without trodes to use mental commands that are free actions). And you need to look through the scope the whole time.
You could possible even detatch the imaging scope from your weapon. Use the in-build camera in the smartgun to send a live feed to your Image Link in your scope - holding the scope with one hand looking through your scope to and fire the weapon around corners without exposing yourself with your other hand (if your smartgun can be fired with one hand) ;)
You can also have Image Link, Smartlink and Flare Compensation in a pair of contact lenses (and Low Light in the on-board camera of your smartgun). Would probably save you a lot of hassle in the long run ;)
(you still only get +1 dice pool bonus to your attacks with the weapon as long as you don't pay essence for the smartlink. Alpha retinal modification to natural eyes or alpha rank 1 cybereyes that come with camera, image link and 4 capacity of which smartlink take 3 will cost you 0.16 essence).
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As a reminder, "wireless on" means on the Matrix by definition.
Despite what certain individuals tell you, "wireless on" is not the same as being connected to the Matrix. You have to actually be logged on to a grid to be connected to the Matrix. "Wireless on" only makes it possible to set up the PAN.
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To get the wireless bonus your device need to be both wireless ON and connected to the Matrix
(in 99.9% of all cases wireless ON mean your device is also on the Matrix)
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(You don't need a data jack either. Not to get all bonuses.)
To get the ones that need DNI, you need either a datajack or an implanted Smartlink to get the DNI.
trodes are fine for DNI mate
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Seems like there's a lot of back and forth here, and I too was confused by this for a long time, so let's go through it all at once. Mods, feel free to let me know if I'm breaking the rules by, you know, posting the rules...
To summarize for those who just want the low-down:
With wireless disabled, the following gets you +2 Accuracy only:
1. Smartgun system, either externally fitted to top or bottom slot of ranged weapon or internal
2. Smartlink (not to be confused with image link), installed/implanted in:
2a. Imaging device, OR cybereyes/natural eyes with datajack
With wireless enabled, and the smartlink installed in an imaging device (NOT installed in cybereyes or impIanted in natural eyes), get +1 dice pool bonus.
With wireless enabled, and the smartlink installed in a cybereyes or impIanted in natural eyes, get +2 dice pool bonus.
For those of you who want to reference the rules for the above, read on.
Requirements:
p. 433, Firearm Accessories:
"Smartgun System: This connects a firearm or a projectile weapon directly to the user’s smartlink."
"The smartgun features are accessed either by universal access port cable to an imaging device (like glasses, goggles, or a datajack for someone with cybereyes) or by a wireless connection working in concert with direct neural interface."
"Retrofitting a firearm with an internal smartgun system doubles the weapon’s price and adds 2 to its Availability. An external smartgun system can be attached to the top mount or underbarrel mount with an Armorer + Logic (4, 1 hour) Extended Test."
Note that the external smartgun system only costs 200nuyen, more often than not much less than the 2x weapon cost. If you have a free slot (and you should, since it comes with a camera with capacity 1 for vision enhancements), this will often be a more cost effective solution if your gun of choice does not already have a smartgun system.
All right, so you need a smartgun system, a smartlink, and an imaging device. Now that we know the basics of how a Smartgun system works (the first of the three requirements), let's look at the smartlink.
Page 444, Vision Enhancements:
"Smartlink: This accessory works with a smartgun system to give you the full benefit of the system. The smartgun will tell you the range to various targets, as well as ammunition level (and type), heat buildup, mechanical
stress and so on. Without a smartlink, a smartgun system just sends out data that isn’t received by anyone and has no effect. A smartlink installed in a natural eye or in a pair of cybereyes is more effective than a smartlink installed in an external device; see Smartgun System, p. 433."
Page 453, Eyeware:
"Smartlink: An implanted version of the smartlink vision enhancement (p. 444). Note that a smartlink installed in a natural eye or in a pair of cybereyes is more effective than a smartlink installed in an external device: see Smartgun System, p. 444."
Just noticed that this needs to be changed in future printings; the last sentence should read "Smartgun System, p. 433".
All right, fairly straight forward so far; you need the smartgun system on the gun, and a smartlink in either gear or augmentation form. Finally, let's take a look at gear and DNI;
Page 443, Optical and Imaging Devices:
"From wiz shades to bulky goggles, basic vision enhancers are available in several forms. All such devices have—and by default use—wireless capability, although you can use a universal data cable for most of them. Each device has a Capacity that allows you to add vision enhancements. Some of these devices are worn, while others are external sensor devices or even attached to weapons."
All right, still pretty straight forward; get any of these devices, put a smartlink in it, and you've got what you need for the basic features of the smartgun system. To get the full benefits of the system, you need to have an implanted smartlink, which can be done in one of two ways:
Page 222, Direct Neural Interface
A direct neural interface, or DNI, connects your brain to electronic devices. Direct neural interface (along with a sim module) is required for VR use, but DNI is also useful for AR in that you don’t need any additional gear like earbuds or an image link to see or hear augmented reality objects. How do you sign up? You get DNI by wearing trodes, or having an implanted datajack, commlink, or cyberdeck. And if you’re using a sim module along with your DNI, you can get a sort of “super AR mode” where you can also feel, smell, and taste your AR experience.
Notes:
Pretty much every character example in the book has both smartlink and image link systems on their imaging devices; this is not technically required by the RAW, but it could be argued that the smartgun and smartlink by themselves are not enough to "display" the data provided by the system. I am personally of the belief that it is perfectly acceptable to install a smartlink IN the camera provided by the smartgun system, and connect the two together through a universal data connector. You would only get the +1 bonus if looking through the scope, though, at least from my point of view (hah!).
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Reason for image link (or wireless DNI) is to get augmented reality.
Without AR you cant eject clip without touching the weapon, change fire mode without touching the weapon, fire the gun without pulling the trigger, camera feed from the smartgun to fire around corners without exposing yourself, ammo counter and type, heat buildup etc.
I am personally of the belief that it is perfectly acceptable to install a smartlink IN the camera provided by the smartgun system, and connect the two together through a universal data connector. You would only get the +1 bonus if looking through the scope...
What scope?
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I am personally of the belief that it is perfectly acceptable to install a smartlink IN the camera provided by the smartgun system, and connect the two together through a universal data connector. You would only get the +1 bonus if looking through the scope...
What scope?
yeah, i think he meant you can have an underslung smartgun and a top mounted imaging scope. you hook the smartgun to the scope with a cable, and put smartlink in the scope (taking 1 of its 3 capacity slots).
that would make the most sense anyways...
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That would not give you the +1 weapon pool wireless bonus....
(but you would if you connect them wireless)
And you need DNI (for example with trodes or a data jack) if you want to eject clip or change fire mode with a mental command as a free action
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Interestingly the new Missions FAQ (at DriveThru or Battleshop) has this to say about wireless bonuses.
Wireless
Keep in mind that most gear is assumed to have some wireless function built into it, and many pieces of gear benefit from
being connected to your Personal Area Network in some way. Skinlink is not available yet at this point, so you’ll either need to
run wireless to take advantage of these bonuses, or run wires to your gear if you want to be protected (you’ll look like a fraggin’
antique with wires running all over the place, but don’t worry. Wires are cool again!).
With this in mind, you’ll likely either need to make sure you have a good decker in the group to protect you with his cyberdeck,
and/or make certain you have a decent firewall on your commlink to protect your gear. Getting bricked (see p. 228, SR5)
sucks.
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Unless this is errata'd, you do NOT need an image link to gain the benefits of a smartgun; nowhere in the rules does it state that you require an image link for ANY of the benefits, presumably as you need the smartgun (which contains a camera) and the smartlink (either in glasses or in your eyes) that transmits the necessary information.
Csjarrat; you don't even need the top-mounted scope, as the smartgun comes with a camera (cap 1) that you can install a smartlink in (cap 1), meeting both requirements for Imaging Device (smartgun camera) and Smartgun (smartgun itself). The only other requirement to gain the +1 dice pool bonus is that the device be wirelessly enabled, which is completely feasible by the description of Wireless in the core book as well as the Missions FAQ.
Xenon; you do NOT need a DNI in order to eject a clip or change fire modes with a mental command, according to the description of the Smartgun system.
"Wireless:A wireless smartlink provides a dice pool bonus to all attacks with the weapon: +1 if you’re using gear with a smartlink or +2 if you’re using an augmentation for which you paid Essence. Ejecting a clip and changing fire modes are Free Actions."
By RAW, the only thing you need is to have the device wireless on, which makes the device vulnerable. This can be mitigated somewhat by a high-end commlink, and/or a hacker on the team.
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Xenon; you do NOT need a DNI in order to eject a clip or change fire modes with a mental command, according to the description of the Smartgun system.
"Wireless:A wireless smartlink provides a dice pool bonus to all attacks with the weapon: +1 if you’re using gear with a smartlink or +2 if you’re using an augmentation for which you paid Essence. Ejecting a clip and changing fire modes are Free Actions."
By RAW, the only thing you need is to have the device wireless on, which makes the device vulnerable. This can be mitigated somewhat by a high-end commlink, and/or a hacker on the team.
It's actually a RAW conflict. Check out the Free Action: Change Linked Device Mode:
A character may use a Free Action to activate, deactivate, or switch the mode on any device that he is linked to by a direct neural interface through either a wired or wireless link. This includes activating cyberware, changing a smartgun’s firing mode, changing a smartlinked shotgun’s choke...
It's not as clear on the Clip Ejecting deal, but they leave undefined what "[a] character linked to a readied smartgun" means. I would point out they use the term "linked" above in association with DNI. Plus it talks about "mental command" which is basically what DNI provides.
Honestly, this whole argument should wait for errata to clarify.
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By RAW, the only thing you need is to have the device wireless on, which makes the device vulnerable. This can be mitigated somewhat by a high-end commlink, and/or a hacker on the team.
According to what Crunch quoted, this has been fixed to function more properly. Using actual wires now works. What's even better is that this implies that the Reaction Enhancer and Wired Reflexes can now function together running through one's Data Jack (as they rightly should).
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Unless this is errata'd, you do NOT need an image link
In addition to smargtun and smartlink you need an imaging device (so you can see the information (+2 accuracy) with your eyes) or DNI (so you can project the information (+2 accuracy) in your brain) p.433
You need an image link (p.444) or DNI (p.222) to get AR (which you need to access smartgun features such as eject a clip without touching the weapon, change fire mode without touching the weapon or fire without touching the weapon either as a simple action moving around AROs when you connect your smartgun to your Image Link wireless or with a cable using the Change Device Mode on p.164 or as a free action using mental commands if you wireless connect to DNI using the Eject Smartgun Clip on p.164 and the Change Linked Device Mode on p.163).
With or without AR (and Image Link) you can still of course eject clip and change fire mode by manually touching the weapon by using the simple action Remove Clip and Change Gun Mode on p.165 and p.166 or fire the weapon by manually pulling the physical trigger (does not require a smartlink, cable or wireless ON).
And you need a way to see the smartgun live camera feed when you fire around corners without exposing yourself. Normally this is done with an Image Link (so you can see the live camera feed with your eyes) or with wireless DNI (so you can project the live camera feed in your brain).
Csjarrat; you don't even need the top-mounted scope, as the smartgun comes with a camera (cap 1) that you can install a smartlink in (cap 1), meeting both requirements for Imaging Device (smartgun camera) and Smartgun (smartgun itself)
You are assuming that you can use the on-board mini-camera of an internal smartlink as an imaging device you can look through at the same time as you fire around corners without exposing yourself...
According to what Crunch quoted, this has been fixed to function more properly. Using actual wires now works. What's even better is that this implies that the Reaction Enhancer and Wired Reflexes can now function together running through one's Data Jack (as they rightly should).
What is mission FAQ (and where can i read it)?
Is this the official errata we have been waiting on?
If not, will the official errata include everything in the Mission FAQ?
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It's a free download on DriveThru.
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http://www.drivethru.com/ ?
http://www.drivethru.com.au/ ?
Can you be a bit more precise please
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http://www.drivethru.com/ ?
http://www.drivethru.com.au/ ?
Can you be a bit more precise please
Here you are: http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/119272/Shadowrun-Missions-Season-5-Prep-Files
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Xenon My problem with your interpretation is that I can find no mention in the rules for smartguns of needing AR. The only mention is DNI, which is specifically defined. The way the entries fir smartgun and smartlink are worded they seem to indicate that they are the only things needed to get the bonuses.
Another rule that would be nice to get clarifications for.
Personally, if I'm getting a smartgun for a character I'll be using an implanted commlink (which gives me DNI) along with an implanted smartlink. Problem solved.
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p.163 Change Linked Device Mode Free Action
A character may use a Free Action to activate, deactivate, or switch the mode on any device that he is linked to by a direct neural interface through either a wired or wireless link. This includes activating cyberware, changing a smartgun’s firing mode, changing a smartlinked shotgun’s choke, deactivating thermographic vision, switching a commlink to hidden mode, turning a device’s wireless functionality off, and so on. Note that it takes longer to interact with some devices, as noted in individual gear descriptions.
p.164 Eject Smartgun Clip Fee Action
A character linked to a ready smartgun may use a mental command to eject the weapon’s clip. It still takes a separate Simple Action to insert a new, fresh clip (see Smartgun System, p. 433).
p.164 Change Device Mode Simple Action
A character may use a Simple Action to activate, deactivate, or change the mode on any device with a simple switch, a virtual button, or a command from a commlink or other control device through either a wired or wireless link. This includes changing a gun’s firing mode, changing a shotgun’s choke, changing vision systems, switching a commlink to hidden mode, turning a device’s wireless functionality off, and so on. It takes longer to interact with some devices; check individual gear descriptions.
p165 Change Gun Mode Simple Action
A character holding a ready firearm can change its firing mode via a Simple Action. If the weapon is a properly linked smartgun, it costs only a Free Action to change the mode (see Firearms, p. 424, and Smartgun Systems, p. 433). This includes changing a shotgun’s choke if the gun does not have a smartgun link (see Shotguns, p. 429).
p.166 Remove Clip Simple Action
A character may remove a clip from a ready firearm by taking a Simple Action (see Insert Clip, p. 165, and also Reload Weapons, p. 163). It takes another Simple Action to grab a fresh clip and slam it into the weapon.
p.222 Direct Neural Interface
A direct neural interface, or DNI, connects your brain to electronic devices. Direct neural interface (along with a sim module) is required for VR use, but DNI is also useful for AR in that you don’t need any additional gear like earbuds or an image link to see or hear augmented reality objects.
How do you sign up? You get DNI by wearing trodes, or having an implanted datajack, commlink, or cyberdeck. And if you’re using a sim module along with your DNI, you can get a sort of “super AR mode” where you can also feel, smell, and taste your AR experience.
p.424 Firearms
The weapon displays an ARO that tells you ammo levels and ammo type loaded. If you have a DNI, you get two additional benefits. First, ejecting a clip (for weapons that have them) is a Free Action rather than a Simple Action. Second, changing fire modes (on models that have more than one) is a Free Action rather than a Simple Action.
p.444 Image Link
A standard upgrade, this lets you display visual information (text, pictures, movies, the current time, etc.) in your field of vision. This is usually AROs, but you can display pretty much whatever you want on it. You and your team can use it to share tactical and situational info in real time. An image link is what you need to truly “see” AR and participate in the modern world.
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Explaining all rules at one place would be too easy ;)
There are 3 ways to switch fire mode of a weapon.
1) Manually switch the fire mode on the firearm. This is a simple action. You need physical access to a firearm that support different fire modes.
2) Switch fire mode with an ARO. This is also a simple action. No need to physically touch the weapon but you need access to AR.
3) Switch fire mode with mental command. This is a free action and require wireless ON (no cable), matrix access and DNI (wireless bonus).
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You need an image link (p.444) or DNI (p.222) to get AR (which you need to access smartgun features such as eject a clip without touching the weapon, change fire mode without touching the weapon or fire without touching the weapon either as a simple action moving around AROs when you connect your smartgun to your Image Link wireless or with a cable using the Change Device Mode on p.164 or as a free action using mental commands if you wireless connect to DNI using the Eject Smartgun Clip on p.164 and the Change Linked Device Mode on p.163).
AR means you get funky visual overlays. It is absolutely not required to do any of the stuff you listed.
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AR means you get funky visual overlays. It is absolutely not required to do any of the stuff you listed.
AR is not only funky visual overlays, AR also means you can control devices through their AROs; Without touching them physically.
The book even explicit state that you can take the Change Device Mode Simple Action to change fire mode of a firearm. You can also physically touch your firearm to change the fire mode by taking the Change Gun Mode Simple Action. If you have AR through wireless DNI you can even send a mental command to alter the fire mode ARO by taking the Change Linked Device Mode Free Action.
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Xenon; I concede the point, that is well reasoned. Thanks for clearing that up for me!
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The book even explicit state that you can take the Change Device Mode Simple Action to change fire mode of a firearm. You can also physically touch your firearm to change the fire mode by taking the Change Gun Mode Simple Action. If you have AR through wireless DNI you can even send a mental command to alter the fire mode ARO by taking the Change Linked Device Mode Free Action.
You are obviously mixing up two things:
1.) AR via DNI. If you have a Sim Module connected via DNI, you can get all the AR stuff beamed straight into your sensorium without glasses, earbuds, or more exotic devices (rule 34 and all that...)
2.) Controlling things via DNI. As you quoted yourself "A character may use a Free Action to activate, deactivate, or switch the mode on any device that he is linked to by a direct neural interface". While that happens to include interaction with AR (if you control your commlink via DNI), it does in no shape or form require anything else, like toggling the IR mode on your cybereyes or ejecting a smartgun clip, to use AROs.
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I don't think you need sim-module to mentally change fire mode on a wireless firearm with a free action. If sim-module is required to interact with AROs using DNI then I will rephrase my statement. Thanks for catching this Sengir.
1.) AR via DNI. If you have a Sim Module connected via DNI, you can get all the AR stuff beamed straight into your sensorium without glasses, earbuds, or more exotic devices (rule 34 and all that...)
It is clear that you need DNI and a sim-module to experience VR.
It is ambiguous if
1) you can experience AR with just DNI and that you can experience "super AR" if you have a DNI and a sim-module.
or
2) you can only experience AR if you have DNI and a sim-module (and it will always be a "super AR" experience)
Judge for yourself; This is the text in the rex box on p.222
Direct neural interface (along with a sim module) is required for VR use, but DNI is also useful for AR in that you don’t need any additional gear like earbuds or an image link to see or hear augmented reality objects.
How do you sign up? You get DNI by wearing trodes, or having an implanted datajack, commlink, or cyberdeck. And if you’re using a sim module along with your DNI, you can get a sort of “super AR mode” where you can also feel, smell, and taste your AR experience.
I am willing to admit that you need a sim-module to experience AR, but the parenthesis kinda throw me off and make me think the sim-module part was only intended for VR and not for AR as well...?
- why do they use a parenthesis there if sim-module is required for both VR and AR? I am a believer of that the use of pantheists should be to clarify things, not to make something perfectly clear suddenly appear ambiguous....
(what is rule 34?)
2.) Controlling things via DNI. As you quoted yourself "A character may use a Free Action to activate, deactivate, or switch the mode on any device that he is linked to by a direct neural interface". While that happens to include interaction with AR (if you control your commlink via DNI), it does in no shape or form require anything else, like toggling the IR mode on your cybereyes or ejecting a smartgun clip, to use AROs.
Well... We don't really know if you actually mentally interact with the wireless device's ARO when you control devices or if you interact with something else that is not described in the book. We know that you in some cases use DNI to interact with AROs. We almost know that you can change the weapon fire mode by interacting with the wireless firearm ARO by taking a simple action. It is very close to assume that you change the weapon fire mode by mentally interacting with the firearm ARO by taking a free action.
How DNI work is not explained in the book and it might be something very different. If you are required to have a sim-module to interact with AROs I am inclined to agree with you that AR is not needed (because I like to assume that you don't need sim-module for DNI and I like to assume that sim-module is not needed to change fire mode with a free action using DNI - btw are we sure about that??). If we are not required to have a sim-module to interact with AROs with DNI then, from a perspective what a PC needs, my previous statement would not be "wrong" (you can change fire mode on a firearm without touching the firearm using wirelsss DNI and taking a free action - just that you interact with something not-defined-but-possible-something-else-than-an-ARO)
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Well... We don't really know if you actually mentally interact with the wireless device's ARO when you control devices or if you interact with something else that is not described in the book. We know that you in some cases use DNI to interact with AROs. We almost know that you can change the weapon fire mode by interacting with the wireless firearm ARO by taking a simple action. It is very close to assume that you change the weapon fire mode by mentally interacting with the firearm ARO by taking a free action.
How DNI work is not explained in the book and it might be something very different. If you are required to have a sim-module to interact with AROs I am inclined to agree with you that AR is not needed (because I like to assume that you don't need sim-module for DNI and I like to assume that sim-module is not needed to change fire mode with a free action using DNI - btw are we sure about that??). If we are not required to have a sim-module to interact with AROs with DNI then, from a perspective what a PC needs, my previous statement would not be "wrong" (you can change fire mode on a firearm without touching the firearm using wirelsss DNI and taking a free action - just that you interact with something not-defined-but-possible-something-else-than-an-ARO)
Repeat after me: There is no AR involved.
DNI is "[a] connection between the brain’s neural impulses and a computer system that allows a user to mentally interact with that system.". It makes flipping a switch on your cyberware is like pointing a finger, or a cat extending its claws.
(what is rule 34?)
If it exists, there's porn of it.
I'm sure there are AR devices for more than just eyes, ears, and hands...
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Heh, I retract my concession!
The description Sengir listed (from page 216, by the way) of the DNI is why I always imagined you didn't need an image link (or AR) to use the features of a smartgun. The smartgun and smartlink (and a wired or wireless connection between them) are the only requirements to fully utilize the benefits of the system to my mind.
This seems further supported by the DNI page Xenon linked from page 222:
"Direct neural interface (along with a sim module) is required for VR use, but DNI is also useful for AR in that you don’t need any additional gear like earbuds or an image link to see or hear augmented reality objects."
So, it would seem to me that as long as you have the following an image link is indeed not required:
1. A smartgun module installed in a ranged weapon
2. A smartlink installed in gear (for a +1 bonus) or as an implant (cyber or natural eyes for a +2 bonus)
3. A DNI (trodes, implanted datajack/commlink/deck)
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So, it would seem to me that as long as you have the following an image link is indeed not required:
1. A smartgun module installed in a ranged weapon
2. A smartlink installed in gear (for a +1 bonus) or as an implant (cyber or natural eyes for a +2 bonus)
3. A DNI (trodes, implanted datajack/commlink/deck)
Agreed.
You don't need to access smartgun features by connecting a universal access port cable to an imaging device if you have DNI.
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p.433 say:
The smartgun features are accessed either by universal access port cable to an imaging device (like glasses, goggles, or a datajack for someone with cybereyes) or by a wireless connection working in concert with direct neural interface.
Does this mean you can't access smartgun features wireless to an imaging device (only by wire)?
If so, does this mean you need DNI to get +1 dice pool bonus to all attacks with the weapon if you use gear with smartlink?
...wireless smartlink provides a dice pool bonus to all attacks with the weapon: +1 if you’re using gear with a smartlink...
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About the camera in a external smartgun system. Does it have any way of displaying information? Without such would a smartlink vision upgrade make any sense to be installed in said camera?
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Hah, silly inconcsistentand contradicting rules.
That does seem to be the case by RAW, Xenon. Wait. Unless you have a DNI, because you can wirelessly bridge your trodes, smartgun, and smartlinked glasses through a commlink, for example. And as I understand it, you do not need a DNI for the +1bonus; instead, you connect the smartgun to the smartlinked glasses using a universal access cable, similar to how you would connect it to a datajack. Strange that that doesn't give a penalty though, cause how do you access the features like mentally ejecting the clip without a DNI?
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Repeat after me: There is no AR involved.
Firearms p.424
Wireless: The weapon displays an ARO that tells you ammo levels and ammo type loaded. If you have a DNI, you get two additional benefits. First, ejecting a clip (for weapons that have them) is a Free Action rather than a Simple Action. Second, changing fire modes (on models that have more than one) is a Free Action rather than a Simple Action.
- If you don't have access to AR you can still change fire mode physically with the Change Gun Mode simple action p.165, but you don't get ammo levels and ammo type.
- If you have AR from Image Link or DNI (+sim module???) you see an ARO that tells you ammo levels and ammo type
- If you have AR from Image Link or if you have cable-DNI you can change fire mode with the Change Device Mode simple action p.164
- If you have wireless DNI you can change fire mode with the Change Linked Device Mode free action p.163
About the camera in a external smartgun system. Does it have any way of displaying information? Without such would a smartlink vision upgrade make any sense to be installed in said camera?
Yes. With a universal access cable to an imaging device or wireless to DNI.
If there is a display on the camera that you can visually look at? Maybe. Maybe not.
If it had; Then why would they type out that you need to connect your smartgun with a universal access cable to an imaging device or wireless to DNI...?
And as I understand it, you do not need a DNI for the +1bonus; instead, you connect the smartgun to the smartlinked glasses using a universal access cable...
You need to wireless connect your smartgun if you want the +1 bonus. It is a wireless bonus.
If you are nitpicking RAW then p.433 actually say that you can either use a cable from your firearm to your imaging device OR wireless to DNI. If you read it word by word they don't actually let you connect your firearm wireless to your imaging device... and if that is really intended then you actually need DNI if you want the +1 bonus.
(but I personally think RAI is that you can use wireless from your smartgun to your goggles and get +1 bonus -without DNI)
...cause how do you access the features like mentally ejecting the clip without a DNI?
You need to be wireless linked to a smartgun to mentally eject a clip by taking the eject smargun clip free action.
If you don't have a wireless firearm and no cable you can still eject clip by taking the remove clip simple action
If you have a wireless firearm but no DNI or connect to your firearm with a cable you can eject clip by taking the change device mode simple action.
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My interpretation of how you can fire around corners without exposing yourself:
Periscope.
It take a top mount on your firearm and you can look through it while you fire without other augmentations. if you use wireless periscope and you can display the picture on an Image Link in an imaging device (or eyes/cybereyes) or project the image in your head using wireless DNI. In this case you -2 instead of the normal -3 mod.
Smartgun
To access live camera feed from onboard mini-camera to fire around corners without exposing yourself you attach an universal access cable from your smartgun to a smartlink in an Imaging device (or to a data jack if you have smartlink installed in eyes/cybereyes) or wireless to DNI.
Imaging Scope.
It take a top mount on your firearm. You can use it to shoot around corners without exposing yourself if you use wireless imaging scope and display the picture on an Image Link in an imaging device (or eyes/cybereyes) or project the image in your head using wireless DNI.
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Man, you guys are really desperately trying to read complexity into the simplest of rules. So, the long and short of how it is and has always been:
1.) Implants are hooked to your neural system and therefore considered to have DNI for any operations of that implant. You don't need to push any button (virtual or real) to activate your Wired Reflexes*, toggle IR vision on your eyes, or extend your spurs, it just happens (technically, you do a Change Linked Device Mode action "to activate, deactivate, or switch the mode on any device that [you are] linked to by a direct neural interface")
2.) The functionality of a Smartlink cyberware is to communicate with the Smartgun System installed in a weapon. Therefore, you can mentally interact with the Smartlink, and it then tells the linked Smartgun System to do stuff. Yes, that means there has to be some form of connection between the cyberware and the gun, usually wireless via the transmitter in the Smartlink, but cables are also possible. Sadtly the oldschool induction pads are not (yet) in the rules :(
2.1.) If the smartlink is not implanted, you obviously need another form of DNI to for the brain<-->gun connection. Like a trode net, datajack, implanted cyberdeck...
3.) Guns have an ammo counter, in older editions it was a display and nowadays its an ARO -- So what?
It's an additional display, but has nothing to do with other forms of interaction. My laptop has an LED row to tell how much charge the battery has, does that mean anything I do with the laptop somehow has to involve those LED dots?
*: I think Wires are one of the gear pieces which got a "faster activation with Wifi" tacked onto it in 5th. If for whatever reason you do not pretend this BS doesn't exist, don't complain if something illogical screws up any logic.
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Man, you guys are really desperately trying to read complexity into the simplest of rules. So, the long and short of how it is and has always been:
1.) Implants are hooked to your neural system and therefore considered to have DNI for any operations of that implant. You don't need to push any button (virtual or real) to activate your Wired Reflexes*, toggle IR vision on your eyes, or extend your spurs, it just happens (technically, you do a Change Linked Device Mode action "to activate, deactivate, or switch the mode on any device that [you are] linked to by a direct neural interface")
2.) The functionality of a Smartlink cyberware is to communicate with the Smartgun System installed in a weapon. Therefore, you can mentally interact with the Smartlink, and it then tells the linked Smartgun System to do stuff. Yes, that means there has to be some form of connection between the cyberware and the gun, usually wireless via the transmitter in the Smartlink, but cables are also possible. Sadtly the oldschool induction pads are not (yet) in the rules :(
2.1.) If the smartlink is not implanted, you obviously need another form of DNI to for the brain<-->gun connection. Like a trode net, datajack, implanted cyberdeck...
3.) Guns have an ammo counter, in older editions it was a display and nowadays its an ARO -- So what?
It's an additional display, but has nothing to do with other forms of interaction. My laptop has an LED row to tell how much charge the battery has, does that mean anything I do with the laptop somehow has to involve those LED dots?
*: I think Wires are one of the gear pieces which got a "faster activation with Wifi" tacked onto it in 5th. If for whatever reason you do not pretend this BS doesn't exist, don't complain if something illogical screws up any logic.
The problem with the Wireless Bonuses is solved now, man. With the Missions FAQ they solved the BS, as now wiring things works just as well and that at least implies that running the implants through Data Jack would as well.
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Thanks, but I think we all know you can use a wireless smartgun with smartlink in cybereyes and DNI to get all bonuses and access all features....
What we are talking about are edge cases.
Can you put the smartlink in the smartgun (as it have an onboard camera with [1] capacity and camera is an imaging device)
Can you change fire mode on a firearm without physically touching the weapon even if you don't have DNI
Can you project ARO information such as ammo levels directly in your head with DNI but without sim-module
Can you get the +1 wireless bonus if you have wireless smartgun and wireless external smartlink but no DNI
Can you put smartlink in a top mounted imaging scope and project the smartlinked-imaging-scope- image in your head with DNI?
- Do you need a sim-module?
Stuff like that :)
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Can you put the smartlink in the smartgun (as it have an onboard camera with [1] capacity and camera is an imaging device)
Can you change fire mode on a firearm without physically touching the weapon even if you don't have DNI
Can you project ARO information such as ammo levels directly in your head with DNI but without sim-module
Can you get the +1 wireless bonus if you have wireless smartgun and wireless external smartlink but no DNI
Can you put smartlink in a top mounted imaging scope and project the smartlinked-imaging-scope- image in your head with DNI?
- Do you need a sim-module?
1.) Of course you can, now you have given the camera +1 for shooting the weapon. Congratulations ;)
2.) That is why there is the distinction between "Change Linked Device Mode" (Free Action, with DNI) and "Change Device Mode" (Simple Action, with voice/AR glove/button on your commlink/...)
3.) Apparently yes, for just seeing AR a Sim Module seems to be no longer required in 5th
4.) Why not?
5.) See 3.
@All4: How exactly does that affect wireless boni?
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@All4: How exactly does that affect wireless boni?
Wireless
Keep in mind that most gear is assumed to have some wireless function built into it, and many pieces of gear benefit from
being connected to your Personal Area Network in some way. Skinlink is not available yet at this point, so you’ll either need to
run wireless to take advantage of these bonuses, or run wires to your gear if you want to be protected (you’ll look like a fraggin’
antique with wires running all over the place, but don’t worry. Wires are cool again!).
With this in mind, you’ll likely either need to make sure you have a good decker in the group to protect you with his cyberdeck,
and/or make certain you have a decent firewall on your commlink to protect your gear. Getting bricked (see p. 228, SR5)
sucks.
The emphasized portion says that hard-wiring the stuff works now--like it should have all along, really. That was the biggest problem.
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or run wires to your gear if you want to be protected (you’ll look like a fraggin’ antique with wires running all over the place, but don’t worry. Wires are cool again!).
Or you could bold all this and take it that running wires is the other thing. Antiquated.
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or run wires to your gear if you want to be protected (you’ll look like a fraggin’ antique with wires running all over the place, but don’t worry. Wires are cool again!).
Or you could bold all this and take it that running wires is the other thing. Antiquated.
In parentheses is just a commentary. The rules information is what is outside of them. The point remains that this repairs the problem.
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The emphasized portion says that hard-wiring the stuff works now--like it should have all along, really. That was the biggest problem.
Nothing has changed, this has been the rule since day one of 5th Edition: The question is "does it have a matrix connection?" not "is it wired to your commlink or wireless?"
And change or not, this has absolutely no relation to the fact that the wireless baton (and all boni of the same kind) is dumb as hell.
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The emphasized portion says that hard-wiring the stuff works now--like it should have all along, really. That was the biggest problem.
Nothing has changed, this has been the rule since day one of 5th Edition: The question is "does it have a matrix connection?" not "is it wired to your commlink or wireless?"
And change or not, this has absolutely no relation to the fact that the wireless baton (and all boni of the same kind) is dumb as hell.
Don't forget that the quote also says that all it takes is a connection to the PAN. This being why hard-wiring gets the full bonus now.
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It reads more like if (you want the wireless bonus) then (run with wireless on) else (use wired connections to get everything BUT the wireless functionality).
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Don't forget that the quote also says that all it takes is a connection to the PAN. This being why hard-wiring gets the full bonus now.
Erm, no. It says that "many pieces of gear benefit from being connected to your Personal Area Network" and describes how to maintain your PAN. Wireless boni are a different beast altogether
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Erm, no. It says that "many pieces of gear benefit from being connected to your Personal Area Network" and describes how to maintain your PAN. Wireless boni are a different beast altogether
Wireless
Keep in mind that most gear is assumed to have some wireless function built into it, and many pieces of gear benefit from
being connected to your Personal Area Network in some way. Skinlink is not available yet at this point, so you’ll either need to
run wireless to take advantage of these bonuses, or run wires to your gear if you want to be protected
This entire section implies that only a PAN connection is now required. the "many pieces of gear" would basically equate to anything that gives such a bonus (no reason to connect any that doesn't have such a bonus at all).
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It reads more like if (you want the wireless bonus) then (run with wireless on) else (use wired connections to get everything BUT the wireless functionality).
There's two sections. One regarding wireless-enabled items that you can connect with your PAN for communication and such, one about Wireless Bonuses which require a connection with the Matrix and the item's wireless mode on. The first can be done with wires, including smartguns, but the second requires a wireless mode, including the smartgun's bonus dice (which I still loathe with a passion).
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It reads more like if (you want the wireless bonus) then (run with wireless on) else (use wired connections to get everything BUT the wireless functionality).
I absolutely agree.
People, it's called wireless bonus, don't play word games there.
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I never got the FAQ "clarification" on wireless. Sure you can run wires to your gear, but you'll still need a central device from your PAN connecting to the Matrix;
Page 421;
"Because nearly every piece of gear and ’ware is wireless capable, it means nearly every piece of gear and cyberware benefits dramatically from being “meshed” into your wireless personal area network and the Matrix as a whole."
Furthermore:
"When an item has additional functionality when connected to the Matrix, it’s described under the “Wireless” entry in the item’s description. This functionality only applies when the device has access to the Matrix, which is most of the time unless your gamemaster says otherwise, like if you’ve entered a wireless static zone."
It seems pretty clear to me that despite being able to run wires from my smartgun to my datajack, I still need to have either my commlink connected to the Matrix in order for the smartgun to receive the Wireless bonus.
So, from the Missions FAQ, the only benefit you gain is that a hacker can no longer attack your gun directly (as it is wired to your data jack instead of wirelessly connected to your implanted commlink or whatever). He can still hack your commlink, though, so what's the real gain?
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If a device have matrix access it get the wireless bonus.
If a device have matrix access it can be bricked.
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Xenon Sure, but a device linked to a commlink (in order to get wireless bonus) can still be bricked by hacking the commlink, right?
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That notion (you have to hack one thing first to hack another) doesn't exist under SR5. The only way to fit that into SR5 would be for the wired in item to be exactly as visible and hackable as if it was wireless, and by then, what's the point?
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RHat, while that is true, the recent SRM FAQ states that you can wire your wireless devices together to "be safer".
Presumably, that means I can "wire" my hydraulic legs to my commlink to get the same wireless bonus it had while wireless, while making it an unhackable target. However, this is where the debate is right now.
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RHat, while that is true, the recent SRM FAQ states that you can wire your wireless devices together to "be safer".
Presumably, that means I can "wire" my hydraulic legs to my commlink to get the same wireless bonus it had while wireless, while making it an unhackable target. However, this is where the debate is right now.
That is not presumable.
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Xenon Sure, but a device linked to a commlink (in order to get wireless bonus) can still be bricked by hacking the commlink, right?
The rules for Wireless Bonuses are pretty straight forward.
1) These benefits only apply when the item’s wireless mode is on
2) This functionality only applies when the device has access to the Matrix
3) If there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the item’s Device Rating, not including distance, the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality.
I am not convinced a device get a wireless bonus if you go wireless OFF and connect it with a wire to a commlink (even if the commlink is wireless ON), but if you say it does then I say you can brick it (you might need to defeat the firewall of the commlink if the device is slaved to the commlink, but i see no reason why you would need a mark on the commlink).
I would say that if you go wireless OFF and connect the device with a wire then it will no longer get wireless bonus and can no longer be accessed by a decker. If a decker place a datatap on the wire between your device and your commlink and then attach the cable to his cyberdeck then he can hack both the device and the commlink (bypassing matrix attributes from master device). If he place a datatap in the universal access point of the device then he can hack it wireless.
(This might or might not be true when playing SR5 Living Missions, but SR5 core is pretty clear imo)
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RHat, how so? The SRM FAQ is pretty vague on the matter, but it does state that you can use wires for increased security.
Xenon, Fully agreed on SR5 Core rules, I was specifically talking about SRM, which I thought the discussion had diverted to.
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Yes, but it does not logically follow from that statement that a wired connection offers the wireless-exclusive bonus. There are other benefits to that connection, however.
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It seem pretty obvious that wireless in SR5 have higher speed and/or bandwidth than using cables.
To utilize DNI to the fullest you need to connect it wireless to your devices -cables would slow you down.
Do SRM consider that cables have the same speed and/or bandwidth as wireless??
That will give birth to a whole array of new issues.
- Do you need one data jack per device you want to wire up to your DNI?
- Can you use a commlink as a MUX for several wired devices?
- If so, how many physical data access connectors does a commlink have?
- If more than one, can I daisy chain multiple commlinks and only have wireless ON at the top "node"?
- How many physical data access connectors does trodes have?
- Can you now hack a device and from there hack another device (in SR5 you always hack devices directly even if in a PAN)?
- Can you hack a person's DNI and from there get access to all his wired devices?
- Can DNI be wireless OFF?
- If you have external smartlink, do you need a cable from your weapon to your goggles, another cable from weapon to data jack and a third cable from goggles to a second data jack installation...?
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RHat, I'd say that logically, it does.
If A, then B. If Device A has Wireless, and Device B is connected to Device A (either through Wireless link to PAN, aka mesh network or through cable), then Device B has wireless. But that's just me.
Xenon; Yep! Hornets nest, which is why I was surprised to see the inclusion of that sentence, particularly given the flavour text. SRM is supposed to be stricter than core on some rules, and at the very least universal (to give players the same opportunities). Ambiguous rules do not help this.
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This entire section implies that only a PAN connection is now required.
Because this entire section is about the benefits of linking stuff to your PAN in the first place. It has nothing to do with wireless boni.
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RHat, I'd say that logically, it does.
If A, then B. If Device A has Wireless, and Device B is connected to Device A (either through Wireless link to PAN, aka mesh network or through cable), then Device B has wireless. But that's just me.
That's because you're choosing to ignore part of the state - that state being "the device is wirelessly connected". If a device's wireless is turned off, it is not wirelessly connected - it may be connected through a wired means, but that is an entirely different state.
Also, you're mistaking the actual meaning of "mesh" in this case - only wireless-enabled devices can properly be considered to be part of the mesh network.
(Do note that semantically, "to take advantage of these bonuses" modifies running wireless and ONLY running wireless. The "or" following that defines a separate case that where wireless bonuses are not brought into play at any point.)
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RHat; I'm not choosing to ignore anything, instead I am choosing to extend the meaning of "the device is wirelessly connected" to devices that have a cable running from another device that is connected to the Matrix. To me, there is no difference between a device wirelessly connecting to my commlink and a device connecting to my commlink by wire.
For the purposes of SRM, the FAQ overrides the Core Rulebook, and the FAQ states that:
Wireless
Keep in mind that most gear is assumed to have some wireless function built into it, and many pieces of gear benefit from being connected to your Personal Area Network in some way. Skinlink is not available yet at this point, so you’ll either need to run wireless to take advantage of these bonuses, or run wires to your gear if you want to be protected (you’ll look like a fraggin’ antique with wires running all over the place, but don’t worry. Wires are cool again!). With this in mind, you’ll likely either need to make sure you have a good decker in the group to protect you with his cyberdeck, and/or make certain you have a decent firewall on your commlink to protect your gear. Getting bricked (see p. 228, SR5) sucks.
We're both making assumptions here, as this whole discussion is based on interpretations of a blend of flavor text and rules in a fictional setting.
At this point I'll just agree to disagree, simply because it doesn't matter that much to me. As per the second to last sentence above, I'll still slave my devices through my commlink for it's firewall boost and hope that my hacker is better than the opposing teams hacker.
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Are we talking SRM semantics?
As I see it that all boils down to this line:
...so you’ll either need to run wireless to take advantage of these bonuses, or run wires to your gear if you want to be protected...
I read that as if you have a choice: you either
1)go wireless and get bonus (but not protected)
or
2) you run cables and be protected (but no wireless bonus)
As per the second to last sentence above, I'll still slave my devices through my commlink for it's firewall boost and hope that my hacker is better than the opposing teams hacker.
If you have a decker in the party then you can run wireless and slave your device to your deckers cyberceck (so he get free marks if a hostile decker fail sleaze attacks against your device and/or is instantly made aware that your device is under attack if hostile decker successfully attack you device).
Another way to protect your wireless device, if you lack a competent decker in the team, is by protecting it with your own commlink which on average will have a better firewall than your device.
A third way would be to run cables. In this case you can still take advantage of your device being connected to your PAN (if you have wired smartgun and smartlink you still get information about heat-buildup and material stress giving you +2 accuracy and you still get the live feed from the on-board mini-camera which let you shoot around corners for -3 without exposing yourself) but you don't get specific wireless bonuses (like + dice pool bonus to all attacks with the weapon or ejecting / change fire mode with a free action). The up-side is that your device is now now protected from hostile decker attacks.
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Xenon Yep, semantics is exactly what it is. Hence why I'm going with option 1; buy a Transys Avalon, install it in my skull, and slave my devices to it. If we have a hacker in the group, slave critical systems to his/her deck or mind (in case technomancer).
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Xenon Yep, semantics is exactly what it is. Hence why I'm going with option 1; buy a Transys Avalon, install it in my skull, and slave my devices to it. If we have a hacker in the group, slave critical systems to his/her deck or mind (in case technomancer).
Just a note: Technomancers cannot use their living persona/bionode to take part in a PAN. They cannot slave things to themselves
Which is crap, but that's the rules.
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Xenon Yep, semantics is exactly what it is. Hence why I'm going with option 1; buy a Transys Avalon, install it in my skull, and slave my devices to it. If we have a hacker in the group, slave critical systems to his/her deck or mind (in case technomancer).
Just a note: Technomancers cannot use their living persona/bionode to take part in a PAN. They cannot slave things to themselves
Which is crap, but that's the rules.
Although they can easily pick up a comlink and use that for their PAN. In this case Infuse Firewall actually makes them notably good as PAN defenders.
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Xenon Yep, semantics is exactly what it is. Hence why I'm going with option 1; buy a Transys Avalon, install it in my skull, and slave my devices to it. If we have a hacker in the group, slave critical systems to his/her deck or mind (in case technomancer).
Just a note: Technomancers cannot use their living persona/bionode to take part in a PAN. They cannot slave things to themselves
Which is crap, but that's the rules.
Although they can easily pick up a comlink and use that for their PAN. In this case Infuse Firewall actually makes them notably good as PAN defenders.
At the cost of a -2 to everything else they do and a pretty stupid amount of Fading, yes - boosting the Firewall on a Transys Avalon leaves you with 7 Fading to soak (seriously, no possible reason for Infusion of Matrix Attribute to cause 4 more damage than Increase Attribute - if anything it's the latter that should have higher damage to the caster, as increasing an attribute is distinctly more useful).
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Xenon Yep, semantics is exactly what it is. Hence why I'm going with option 1; buy a Transys Avalon, install it in my skull, and slave my devices to it. If we have a hacker in the group, slave critical systems to his/her deck or mind (in case technomancer).
Just a note: Technomancers cannot use their living persona/bionode to take part in a PAN. They cannot slave things to themselves
Which is crap, but that's the rules.
Although they can easily pick up a comlink and use that for their PAN. In this case Infuse Firewall actually makes them notably good as PAN defenders.
Better yet, get someone to throw down some bones for an RCC. It works like a commlink but also comes with Noise Reduction.
Drone Liberation Front: Slave devices, not drones!
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Xenon Yep, semantics is exactly what it is. Hence why I'm going with option 1; buy a Transys Avalon, install it in my skull, and slave my devices to it. If we have a hacker in the group, slave critical systems to his/her deck or mind (in case technomancer).
Just a note: Technomancers cannot use their living persona/bionode to take part in a PAN. They cannot slave things to themselves
Which is crap, but that's the rules.
Although they can easily pick up a comlink and use that for their PAN. In this case Infuse Firewall actually makes them notably good as PAN defenders.
At the cost of a -2 to everything else they do and a pretty stupid amount of Fading, yes - boosting the Firewall on a Transys Avalon leaves you with 7 Fading to soak (seriously, no possible reason for Infusion of Matrix Attribute to cause 4 more damage than Increase Attribute - if anything it's the latter that should have higher damage to the caster, as increasing an attribute is distinctly more useful).
Everything has a price. If you're really concerned about PAN security having a Technomancer with Infuse Firewall is an asset that's hard to match. Yes they'll have to soak fading, and yes they'll have sustaining penalties, but in some circumstances that's a very good trade off.
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(they can also infuse someone else's commlink or cyberdeck to be the master of the PAN; but technomancers often have very good intuition and willpower which are both very useful when defending against matrix attacks).
Did we ever get a fix on if you can borrow mental attributes from the master device as well or just matrix attributes
- when defending a slaved device from matrix attacks that is...
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Xenon Yep, semantics is exactly what it is. Hence why I'm going with option 1; buy a Transys Avalon, install it in my skull, and slave my devices to it. If we have a hacker in the group, slave critical systems to his/her deck or mind (in case technomancer).
Just a note: Technomancers cannot use their living persona/bionode to take part in a PAN. They cannot slave things to themselves
Which is crap, but that's the rules.
Although they can easily pick up a comlink and use that for their PAN. In this case Infuse Firewall actually makes them notably good as PAN defenders.
At the cost of a -2 to everything else they do and a pretty stupid amount of Fading, yes - boosting the Firewall on a Transys Avalon leaves you with 7 Fading to soak (seriously, no possible reason for Infusion of Matrix Attribute to cause 4 more damage than Increase Attribute - if anything it's the latter that should have higher damage to the caster, as increasing an attribute is distinctly more useful).
Everything has a price. If you're really concerned about PAN security having a Technomancer with Infuse Firewall is an asset that's hard to match. Yes they'll have to soak fading, and yes they'll have sustaining penalties, but in some circumstances that's a very good trade off.
Sure - but it's notably inferior to the options deckers have for doing the same. A starting Decker can have a set Firewall of 8 for the low, low cost of 1 program slot, and can slave gear to that. As the campaign progresses, the decker then gets BETTER at this, getting up to effective Firewall 10 for, again, 1 program slot. The technomancer, meanwhile, cannot abate the cost of improving that Firewall other than by getting a very expensive quality (and they're Karma-starved as it is) to deal with the sustaining penalty.
If something's going to inflict as much damage as getting shot (against a presumably smaller soak pool, too) and making you notably worse at everything you do, it better be damn awesome. All Infusion of Firewall does for a technomancer is let them catch up or be a good secondary Matrix specialist.
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TMs were screwed in every way imaginable, no news here...
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So were Deckers. And Riggers. And Street Sams. And Physical Adepts. And Magicians. And Faces. The only class nobody mentioned as screwed over and nerfed into oblivion is Mystic Adepts. That is, until after the Hot Patch.
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... Have you seen anyone, ANYWHERE, complaining about underpowered deckers?
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Actually, yes, as part of the price debate. And the whole "I'd have to slave my deck to a commlink to give it a decent firewall!" But mostly I've seen people overestimating them as grenades counter-measure.
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Seriously? That's just a failure to do simple math. You spend about three quarters of your resources on the best deck you can get, leaving you with plenty of space.
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Thank you for making my point. :)
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So were Deckers. And Riggers. And Street Sams. And Physical Adepts. And Magicians. And Faces. The only class nobody mentioned as screwed over and nerfed into oblivion is Mystic Adepts. That is, until after the Hot Patch.
Yeah, sure. TMs have plenty of options, Karma and priorities are competitive, Fading is in no way overdone...move along citizen, your loyalty officer will get in touch with you shortly.
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TMs have plenty of options, Karma and priorities are competitive, Fading is in no way overdone...
That's hardly fair, I did not say anything about those things. Neither did you.
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That's hardly fair, I did not say anything about those things. Neither did you.
[/quote]
Our communications officer has recorded the following exchange:
Me: TMs were screwed in every way
You: Nothing was screwed harder than other archetypes
Denial is treason. Report to confession booth 08-0xF immediately. Not reporting there is treason.
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smartlink implant,
smart link systems of some type on the weapon
A cyber safety, would remove the need of the cable or wireless
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You: Nothing was screwed harder than other archetypes.
And I did not say that either.
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You: Nothing was screwed harder than other archetypes.
And I did not say that either.
You did, however, indirectly reference (intentionally or otherwise) the idea that if everyone's complaining about everything being too weak something has to be right, without referencing the requisite that everyone must also be complaining about everything being too powerful; thus your statement could be (and was) interpreted to mean that you were arguing that things are in fact balanced.
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No I didn't. There are a number of statements that can be based on the comment I made, and what you're reading it as is merely one of them. It's quite alike those conflicting rules in SR5: You can draw quite a few conclusions with educated guesses, but in the end the reality is there is not enough evidence to support either claim so what is needed is asking for more intel.
As for the actual point I was trying to make, reinforced by my first objecting post: It's easy to claim a class was nerfed to hell. People have done so regarding every class there is. However, blind claims get us nowhere, what we need are facts about what a class can and cannot do, and what their competition can do instead, and a comparison on that base.
Now Sengir noted a few downsides of TMs. Those are things that need further analysis, and need to be combined with analyzing their exact strengths. However, he did not note those in the first post, and it was that post that I countered with 'people say that about every archetype, merely saying it doesn't make it true'. Someone could state Aspected Magicians are far too powerful but without supportive statements and comparison to Magicians and Mystic Adepts, it is merely a blind unsupported statement. In my opinion, such hyperbole only serves to detract from the debates.
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... In context, there was NO cause to infer that intent, especially since I'd been offering exactly that kind of commentary just two posts prior to yours.
And you did reference that argument, there's no denying it - that may not have been your intent, but what we intend to communicate and what we actually communicate are not always the same thing. That "counter" was offered to a post that wasn't even intended to present a cogent argument - Sengir's post was an affirmation.
The simple fact is that technomancers have to eat a ridiculous amount of Fading just to keep up at the outset - they're worse at basically everything due to lacking "core functionality" programs, and using Complex Forms to simply make up for that (in often inferior ways) requires that you take damage first, and no small amount of that. Combine this with the many sources of Matrix Damage and Matrix Damage going to Stun for technomancers, and you have a spiral effect where the initial dice pool gap widens substantially. Technomancers continue to have much less flexibility, as well, in a game where versatility is king - I'd argue that it continues to be the case (because it absolutely WAS the case in SR4) that they have to be better than mundanes in the Matrix for a balanced environment to exist, and the reverse is presently true. The alternative to that would be to let they have more versatility, which there are ways to do...
Sengir's statement wasn't hyperbole - the essence of it is true. Somebody in development decided that technomancers were too powerful in SR4, likely because they simply ignored the broader context in which SR4's technomancer rules existed, and thus they were brought low without the general dynamic changing.
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Someone could state Aspected Magicians are far too powerful but without supportive statements and comparison to Magicians and Mystic Adepts, it is merely a blind unsupported statement.
Because AFAICT, he would be the first to do so. On the other hand, that TMs are too weak and Mystic Adepts (pre-hotpatch) too strong has been discussed to death and beyond on these forums and elsewhere. So if a forum regular and demo team member equates complaints about TMs with (in comparison non-existing) complaints about other archetypes, I'd for some reason assume he does so knowing why TMs are considered to suck hard -- or asking.
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So what does the PC need for smartlink? ;)
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So what does the PC need for smartlink? ;)
judging by the way this thread has gotten to 8 pages, a lot of patience.
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"Hello, thank you for calling Weapons World Tech Support, how can I assist you?" "My smartgun has locked up in the middle of a firefight!" "Please remain calm, sir. Have you tried restarting your smartgun... Sir, there is no need for that kind of language." "Oh, that wasn't me, it was the ganger that just found out he had to reload. These guys can't shoot, which means I had the HALF HOUR to wait on hold while being pelted with bullets!"
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So what does the PC need for smartlink? ;)
Well, to summarize for anyone still looking for an answer:
Interestingly, this edition's rules do not require an image link. However, smartlink is a Vision Enhancement, so something that can accept a Vision Enhancement is absolutely required, and it is not possible under the rules to get around this. This means that a character needs to have (a) A pair of glasses, goggles, contacts, a monocle, scope, etc. with a smartlink installed in it, (b) cybereyes with a smartlink installed, or (c) a smartlink implanted in their eyeball. That gets you the Accuracy and (if wireless) dice pool bonuses, and you cannot get those bonuses without that equipment. The text is a little less specific on the requirements for the control options, but as "mentally" alone is listed as the method for sending them a DNI would be required. For using the camera to shoot around corners, an Image Link or DNI would be required.