Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: jamesfirecat on <06-16-13/2231:05>
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Hey guys I need to write up proper reviews for the four SRM CMPS i played at Oirings, but after playing all of them I have a few comments.
The chief one is that most things seem to be mildly less damaging than they used to be (Direct Combat spells got a MAJOR nerf, no more Narrow bursts for firearms, also you can only shoot one person per combat turn whereas in fourth you could do two long/short bursts to hit two different foes without splitting your dice pool) except for grenades, which if anything got more powerful.
Given that it is possible to use contact grenades that explode the round you fire them and require only three hits in an unopposed test to land directly at the enemies feet to blow them apart for 16P -2AP (if you use HE grenades) not to mention also doing damage to any of his friends who are nearby,.... are grenades just massively more deadly/effective than guns now? Like how someone with a 15 in automatics/pistols should probably hit give or take the foes dodge but someone with 15 dice in heavy weapons should miss next to never.
Am I misreading the rules in some way? Is it flat out impossible to have grenades go off the same action/run through the initiative order as they are fired? What actions can characters take against grenades, especially if someone chooses to use a semiauto grenade launcher which to my and my friends understanding should be easily capable of landing three grenades close to someone which will do something like 30+ P (as each grenade beyond the first adds 8P to the damage value) and should be enough to destroy most vehicles let alone most runners.
Did anyone else playing CMPS find grenades to be rather noticeably more powerful than most other weapons present in 5th edition?
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I think you'll find it's a little premature for this sort of thread. The number of people who have access to the game, much less who have actually played it enough to form informed opinions, is very small.
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I think you'll find it's a little premature for this sort of thread. The number of people who have access to the game, much less who have actually played it enough to form informed opinions, is very small.
See...me? I thought it was a phallus waving thread. You know "See what I got that you don't!"
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Or it was just an honest question.
As for the question, don't kow, I don't have the book yet. I would not be surprised becasuse they have yet to make the roll resisted so why start now? I have no idea why you can dodge the fireball, but can't dodge a grenade, hell you can dodge bullerts(make self harder to hit) but grenades which there are quite a few real world tactics to minimize damage is impossible to avoid. I don't remember any edition doing it differently though. As for 16DV-2 yeah that is brutal, its pretty much instant kill vs everything that isn't a tank. So youd think it would have got caught in playtest and yes you are missing soemthing, but who knows.
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You do dodge grenades if they're targeted at you. The problem is when they aim at the ground by your feet instead of actually aiming at you, but that reflects reality. If someone is silly enough to actually try to hit a person with a grenade, more power to them. I hope their target catches it and tosses it back.
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You do dodge grenades if they're targeted at you. The problem is when they aim at the ground by your feet instead of actually aiming at you
Is that made explicit? Because "oh shit, grenade" *gets away from it* is gonna work about the same either way.
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A GM should just rule that as "They aim for the ground you were standing at before you started your previous pass", if someone decides to abuse that and the rules are that bad. But I doubt there's not something else there.
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Or it was just an honest question.
As for the question, don't kow, I don't have the book yet. I would not be surprised becasuse they have yet to make the roll resisted so why start now? I have no idea why you can dodge the fireball, but can't dodge a grenade, hell you can dodge bullerts(make self harder to hit) but grenades which there are quite a few real world tactics to minimize damage is impossible to avoid. I don't remember any edition doing it differently though. As for 16DV-2 yeah that is brutal, its pretty much instant kill vs everything that isn't a tank. So youd think it would have got caught in playtest and yes you are missing soemthing, but who knows.
Armor in general got upgraded so it is not a completely 100% "you will go down" kind of thing actually. The amount of armor you can wear is no longer tied into your body score so there's no reason that even the mage or the the rigger should not have 15 dice worth of armor (12 for armored jacket 3 for a helmet) plus body to resist that damage with.
However I do think that if it is possible to have grenades go off instantly right after you fire them (and according to my understanding of them contact fuses let you do this and do it without risking someone using the Matrix to make your grenades explode while they're still on your belt) and there is no sort of dodge roll you can make... well like I said that seems far more lethal than most attacks in SR5.
I would not be surprised if I am/was misreading the rules so I was wondering what other people thought/knew on the subject.
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Iirc we've had rules for wirelessly detonating grenades, which in turn allows split second detonation.
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Okay spent some time talking with some people who have actually bought the book here is what i have found out.
Time Grenades give a delay and will not explode till next round so there is a chance to throw them back or let the person leap/run out of the blast radius.
Motion/Impact Sensor: Requires you to actually make an opposed to hit roll with them being at minus 2 to dodge, but if they do dodge it then the grenade rolls full scatter than explodes. This is fairly reasonable because it is an opposed test, but it also sort of begs the question "what if I shoot at the ground" because while I can imagine a runner dodging a grenade in flight, if you target the ground he is standing on, then it does not matter how good they are at matrix dodging around the grenade, it will still land at their feet, stop moving and go boom for 16P -2Ap. Maybe we're just not supposed to/flat out not allowed to do that which makes sense in the crunch but is sort of silly in the fluff.
Wireless Grenades: If you are willing to risk having them be hacked these babies are the "three hits to the general area, no dodge, you can soak 16P-2AP and your friends 14P -1AP" babies that are so dangerous especially if you use say a semi-auto grenade launcher to fire them since 4th editions grenade stacking rules from WAR are now part of the core books rules for 5th.
I'm doing more research into this issue (and how easy it is to protect/hack someone's grenades) and just wanted to admit that I was incorrect about a few things and hopefully this at least helps paint a somewhat clearer picture of the relative strengths and weaknesses of grenades in 5th edition.
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Motion/Impact Sensor: Requires you to actually make an opposed to hit roll with them being at minus 2 to dodge, but if they do dodge it then the grenade rolls full scatter than explodes. This is fairly reasonable because it is an opposed test, but it also sort of begs the question "what if I shoot at the ground" because while I can imagine a runner dodging a grenade in flight, if you target the ground he is standing on, then it does not matter how good they are at matrix dodging around the grenade, it will still land at their feet, stop moving and go boom for 16P -2Ap. Maybe we're just not supposed to/flat out not allowed to do that which makes sense in the crunch but is sort of silly in the fluff.
Not if you think of it as relative motion. There's no reason that the runner should be expected to stand still on top of the grenade rather than diving for cover. I might roll scatter for the runner rather than the grenade though.
Wireless Grenades: If you are willing to risk having them be hacked these babies are the "three hits to the general area, no dodge, you can soak 16P-2AP and your friends 14P -1AP" babies that are so dangerous especially if you use say a semi-auto grenade launcher to fire them since 4th editions grenade stacking rules from WAR are now part of the core books rules for 5th.
I'd be very leary of these, since there's nothing stopping someone from hacking them while they're still in your belt/clip. Again I might allow an interrupt action to dive for cover (probably a variant of either the intercept or hit the dirt action) and then scatter the runners.
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Motion/Impact Sensor: Requires you to actually make an opposed to hit roll with them being at minus 2 to dodge, but if they do dodge it then the grenade rolls full scatter than explodes. This is fairly reasonable because it is an opposed test, but it also sort of begs the question "what if I shoot at the ground" because while I can imagine a runner dodging a grenade in flight, if you target the ground he is standing on, then it does not matter how good they are at matrix dodging around the grenade, it will still land at their feet, stop moving and go boom for 16P -2Ap. Maybe we're just not supposed to/flat out not allowed to do that which makes sense in the crunch but is sort of silly in the fluff.
Not if you think of it as relative motion. There's no reason that the runner should be expected to stand still on top of the grenade rather than diving for cover. I might roll scatter for the runner rather than the grenade though.
Wireless Grenades: If you are willing to risk having them be hacked these babies are the "three hits to the general area, no dodge, you can soak 16P-2AP and your friends 14P -1AP" babies that are so dangerous especially if you use say a semi-auto grenade launcher to fire them since 4th editions grenade stacking rules from WAR are now part of the core books rules for 5th.
I'd be very leary of these, since there's nothing stopping someone from hacking them while they're still in your belt/clip. Again I might allow an interrupt action to dive for cover (probably a variant of either the intercept or hit the dirt action) and then scatter the runners.
That's what we're trying to figure out, how easy is it to hack the grenades while they are on your belt in the crunch (or can you even can you have the wireless option turned off 95% of the time and then take 20 seconds to turn their wireless on before you go into combat for example?) at the moment.
Also as for the "interrupt action to dive for cover" my counter point would be "A: "I am simply looking at rules as written." And B:If your action has already cost your opponent his action, and possibly some of his friends actions because it is an AOE attack, then you good sir are already winning this fight even without doing any damage, simply based on the action economy."
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High Explosive grenades do 16P -2AP damage and Frag grenades do 18P +5 AP. To put that in perspective, an Ares Predator V does 8P -1AP, Ares Alpha 11P -2, an Ares Desert Strike does 13P -4AP, and a Panther XXL does 17P -6AP. High Explosive Rockets/Missiles do 21P -2AP. Worn armor is uncapped (though you can only get the benefits of 1) and only +armor items has an encumbrance cap. Therefore it might be reasonable for most people to have 15 armor (12 Armor Jacket + 3 Helmet).
When you attack there's three detonation nodes (SR5O* 181-183). There's a bit of difference between thrown and launched grenades/missiles, but they are minor like scatter and minimum distance. The first is built in timer. To do this, you take a simple action and make a Skill + Agility [Physical] threshold 3 test. If you make the test, you land the grenade where you want. If you fail, it scatters in a manner similar to SR4 expect it's a 2d6 roll for direction. Once it lands, it explodes next combat turn at your Initiative Score -10.
Motion sensor means you set the grenades to explode on impact. This uses the standard attack rules. The target suffers a -2 Targeted by an Area-Affect Attack penalty to his defense test. If you succeed, you hit dead on. I don't know if net hits add to damage in this case. If you fail, you roll scatter as if you had 0 hits. Either way, it explodes instantly. The big question is what happens if you don't shoot a person directly, but the ground, a chair, or whatever. Even if you have to shoot 1m to the left of the "real" target, that's only -1DV damage. There's also no innate "dive for cover" rules against Area Effect attacks in SR5O where you can try to get further away.
The last is wireless link. This works like built-in timer grenades but instead you can explode them with a Change Wireless Device Mode action. If you have DNI to the grenades, this is a free action. If you don't have DNI to the grenades you need a wireless connection, it's a simple action and scatter isn't reduced by hits if you miss. I will admit I don't know if this is reasonable thing to do or a suicide plan since I'm still digesting the Matrix chapter.
Do note, that the grenade/explosive stacking rules from War! are Core now. This does mean you can use a SA grenade launcher (like the MGL-12) to fire a Semi-Auto Burst as a complex action which fires 3 grenades and gives the defender a -2 penalty to Defense. Technically this only works with motion sensor grenades since attacking with the others is a simple action.
*-Shadowrun 5th Edition Origins Edition
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That's what we're trying to figure out, how easy is it to hack the grenades while they are on your belt in the crunch (or can you even can you have the wireless option turned off 95% of the time and then take 20 seconds to turn their wireless on before you go into combat for example?) at the moment.
Also as for the "interrupt action to dive for cover" my counter point would be "A: "I am simply looking at rules as written." And B:If your action has already cost your opponent his action, and possibly some of his friends actions because it is an AOE attack, then you good sir are already winning this fight even without doing any damage, simply based on the action economy."
But RAW doesn't seem to have rules for targeting a spot on the ground with an impact grenade. "Targeting a spot on the ground" to hit someone is a product of the abstraction inherent in the rules. It doesn't make sense if you think of a real combat where people are constantly in motion. Essentially trying to hit someone with the grenade is the same action as throwing it at their feet, and should be resisted the same way. If you choose to allow an abuse of the abstraction by throwing the grenade at someone but not really at them... well its your game.
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That's what we're trying to figure out, how easy is it to hack the grenades while they are on your belt in the crunch (or can you even can you have the wireless option turned off 95% of the time and then take 20 seconds to turn their wireless on before you go into combat for example?) at the moment.
Also as for the "interrupt action to dive for cover" my counter point would be "A: "I am simply looking at rules as written." And B:If your action has already cost your opponent his action, and possibly some of his friends actions because it is an AOE attack, then you good sir are already winning this fight even without doing any damage, simply based on the action economy."
But RAW doesn't seem to have rules for targeting a spot on the ground with an impact grenade. "Targeting a spot on the ground" to hit someone is a product of the abstraction inherent in the rules. It doesn't make sense if you think of a real combat where people are constantly in motion. Essentially trying to hit someone with the grenade is the same action as throwing it at their feet, and should be resisted the same way. If you choose to allow an abuse of the abstraction by throwing the grenade at someone but not really at them... well its your game.
A completely valid counter point.
That's why I feel that motion sensor grenades are much more fair now than originally than when I first read them.
I am at the moment chiefly concerned that wireless grenades are the only ones that are problematic since they let someone who should be only moderately effective at combat like a rigger/decker (and if anyone could keep their grenades from getting hacked it would be that person) roll a respectable but not outstanding 12 or 13 dice, and if they can get three hits on those dice, deliver an attack that can not be dodged and does about as much damage as the team's mage without having to worry about drain.
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Not a rules issue, but a team that overused HE grenades would end up with a reputation in my games. That kind of major havok is the kind of thing that steers employers away from a team unless they're hiring for maximum disruption jobs. Likewise I doubt that many corporate security teams would use grenades as they would tend to damage the facility.
One of my major beefs with some of the earlier SR systems was that grenades simply weren't lethal enough.
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Let them aim at specific spots to cause environmental damage (cause a wall to collapse, for example), let them do the opposed test for hitting people.
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Not a rules issue, but a team that overused HE grenades would end up with a reputation in my games. That kind of major havok is the kind of thing that steers employers away from a team unless they're hiring for maximum disruption jobs. Likewise I doubt that many corporate security teams would use grenades as they would tend to damage the facility.
One of my major beefs with some of the earlier SR systems was that grenades simply weren't lethal enough.
I think grenades have become too lethal, or at least undodgeable wireless grenades are.
If I had to sum up my "crunch" problems with grenades it would be with the following piece of math.
HE grenades do 16P-2AP.
If a force six mage casts a fireball spell at force six, and somehow gets six nets hits (no hits to dodge at all from his target) then he does 12 P-6AP.
With every 3 AP being roughly equivalent being to another DV that's about 14P.. (The only time doing huge armor decreases is better than doing moderately more damage is if they're spending edge to soak and if they're doing that then you're once again winning by default)
A force seven mage casts a fireball spell at force seven and somehow gets seven net hits that is 14 P-7AP
That is equivalent to roughly around 16P -1AP..
Granted, the spread on grenades will make them a little bit worse for AOEing a group that is far apart, but I don't have the book in front of me to look at if magic AOE spells have a fall off rate and if so what is it.
If you do not want to overcast and risk coughing up a lung a mage has to get to magic 8 before he can cast a spell which is a better AOE than a rigger with an Ares Alpha firing HE grenades.
Also that mage needs a magic pool of 18 dice to get six hits just on average, and 21 to get seven, 24 to get eight. A rigger can reliably get the three hits he needs to make his wireless grenades land on target with just 15 dice. (3 Agility, 6 Heavy Weapons, Specilizations Grenade Launcher, Wireless mode enabled on the Ares Alpha, and a reflex recorder for heavy weapons).
If grenades are AOEing better and take less effort than magic AOE.... I think they've become too strong.
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Maybe, although Mages can do a lot more than just AOE and unless the mechanics for mana based spells have changed they're a lot more subtle. I'll have to see the rules, but I don't expect to see HE grenades as anything but last ditch weapons in my games so I'm not worried.
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Maybe, although Mages can do a lot more than just AOE and unless the mechanics for mana based spells have changed they're a lot more subtle. I'll have to see the rules, but I don't expect to see HE grenades as anything but last ditch weapons in my games so I'm not worried.
The thing is that given the dynamics of the Shadowrunner world, somebody in the party needs to be able to AOE, otherwise you're going to be able to get overwhelmed by people of only reasonable skill but large numbers too easily.
People who shoot machine guns/automatic rifles can no longer AOE because they can only shoot one person for every two simple/one complex action they get (no more two long bursts on the same turn, and no more using a full/extended burst to tag four nearby people with individual short bursts) which means that the AOE needs to be brought by either mages or people who shoot non bullet firing guns.
The mage doubtlessly has a lot more utility options than a random guy who is "just good enough" with a grenade launcher.... but to me it feels silly/weird when "geek the mage" has become "geek the guy with the grenade launcher" because the mage is no longer the damage dealing combat monster /glass cannon of the team.
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Don't forget that overcasting has changed. You're not overcasting unless you get more hits than your Magic rating. Throughput instead of bandwidth, as it were.
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Don't forget that overcasting has changed. You're not overcasting unless you get more hits than your Magic rating. Throughput instead of bandwidth, as it were.
Ah okay when I get a chance I'll have to take a look at the exact rules, though since my examples were not taking into account the damage level or two (or three or four) that would be lost to the enemy trying to get out of the way, I think the rough mad probably holds something close to even.
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Maybe, although Mages can do a lot more than just AOE and unless the mechanics for mana based spells have changed they're a lot more subtle. I'll have to see the rules, but I don't expect to see HE grenades as anything but last ditch weapons in my games so I'm not worried.
The thing is that given the dynamics of the Shadowrunner world, somebody in the party needs to be able to AOE, otherwise you're going to be able to get overwhelmed by people of only reasonable skill but large numbers too easily.
People who shoot machine guns/automatic rifles can no longer AOE because they can only shoot one person for every two simple/one complex action they get (no more two long bursts on the same turn, and no more using a full/extended burst to tag four nearby people with individual short bursts) which means that the AOE needs to be brought by either mages or people who shoot non bullet firing guns.
The mage doubtlessly has a lot more utility options than a random guy who is "just good enough" with a grenade launcher.... but to me it feels silly/weird when "geek the mage" has become "geek the guy with the grenade launcher" because the mage is no longer the damage dealing combat monster /glass cannon of the team.
Presumably you can still use a FA weapon to do suppressive fire, which gives you AoE. My understanding of guns is that trying to hit more than one person at once is basically just going 'pray and spray' which in my mind fits more with suppressive fire than being able to just accurately rattle off a half a dozen to a dozen bullets at two different targets in what is effectively one second.
Grenades are a niche weapon, requiring a niche skill, that have a lot of draw backs in terms of risk of friendly fire, damage to mission crucial material, detectability, reputation etc.
I'm also not sure I'd agree that -3 AP is equivalent to 1DV. But that would be intuitive rather than maths based.
You mentioned earlier that it's a win even if the targets avoid damage by using up their actions. That is kind of the point of grenades though. It's cripple / kill them or flush them out of cover and make them vulnerable. So that fits the purpose of the tool for me.
Mind you, I am now thinking I might not want to switch to 5e. One of my co-players has a bit of a grenade fetish a little like Jayne in Firefly and I've already felt the wrath of a 4e flash bang because of it. If I got a 5e HE in the chops thanks to him (and somehow managed to not be chunky salsa), he'd definitely be seeing whether he could catch a bullet in his teeth.
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Maybe, although Mages can do a lot more than just AOE and unless the mechanics for mana based spells have changed they're a lot more subtle. I'll have to see the rules, but I don't expect to see HE grenades as anything but last ditch weapons in my games so I'm not worried.
The thing is that given the dynamics of the Shadowrunner world, somebody in the party needs to be able to AOE, otherwise you're going to be able to get overwhelmed by people of only reasonable skill but large numbers too easily.
People who shoot machine guns/automatic rifles can no longer AOE because they can only shoot one person for every two simple/one complex action they get (no more two long bursts on the same turn, and no more using a full/extended burst to tag four nearby people with individual short bursts) which means that the AOE needs to be brought by either mages or people who shoot non bullet firing guns.
The mage doubtlessly has a lot more utility options than a random guy who is "just good enough" with a grenade launcher.... but to me it feels silly/weird when "geek the mage" has become "geek the guy with the grenade launcher" because the mage is no longer the damage dealing combat monster /glass cannon of the team.
Presumably you can still use a FA weapon to do suppressive fire, which gives you AoE. My understanding of guns is that trying to hit more than one person at once is basically just going 'pray and spray' which in my mind fits more with suppressive fire than being able to just accurately rattle off a half a dozen to a dozen bullets at two different targets in what is effectively one second.
Grenades are a niche weapon, requiring a niche skill, that have a lot of draw backs in terms of risk of friendly fire, damage to mission crucial material, detectability, reputation etc.
I'm also not sure I'd agree that -3 AP is equivalent to 1DV. But that would be intuitive rather than maths based.
You mentioned earlier that it's a win even if the targets avoid damage by using up their actions. That is kind of the point of grenades though. It's cripple / kill them or flush them out of cover and make them vulnerable. So that fits the purpose of the tool for me.
Mind you, I am now thinking I might not want to switch to 5e. One of my co-players has a bit of a grenade fetish a little like Jayne in Firefly and I've already felt the wrath of a 4e flash bang because of it. If I got a 5e HE in the chops thanks to him (and somehow managed to not be chunky salsa), he'd definitely be seeing whether he could catch a bullet in his teeth.
The problem with 5E web linked grenades is that no you don't cripple/flush them out, you don't do something like suppressive fire to pin them down then roll grenades at them while they're having a hard time getting away, it's just you roll three 5/6's on your attack roll, and then someone no matter how fast/mobile they are gets to eat 16P-2AP.
I feel that the "three dice to hit" thing of time delayed grenades is balanced because it gives than entire turn to be "dead men shooting" or get out of the blast range, or even throw it back at you which if they pull off you will have no chance at all to return the favor back to them.
I feel that the "explodes once they reach your target" of motion sensor grenades is balanced because you have to actually hit the person you are aiming at and they are at a reasonable but not overly large dodge penalty (equivalent to a short burst)
I don't feel the "so long as you're not hacked you can do both" of wireless grenades is balanced, because it lets someone dish out huge amounts of damage for only minor investment in how good they are at a skill.
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Just remember, what works for the players, works for the NPCs... :) And if they get a reputation for throwing grenades, enemies will be much less likely to deal fairly with them.
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Just remember, what works for the players, works for the NPCs... :) And if they get a reputation for throwing grenades, enemies will be much less likely to deal fairly with them.
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Okay, and if grenades are meant to be "unbalanced" like this on purpose in the sense that they are a strong weapon that you should only be able to bring into play in certain situations and that your runners need to plan things out tactically (which is hardly a new thing in Shadowrun, 90% of the battle is selecting the terrain only 10% is actual lead/spell slinging) so that they can be in a situation where they can use grenades, or at least one where grenades can not be used against them, then I withdraw my quibble.
I just wanted to make sure that I was reading the rules correctly and that if you're in those situations where they can be used effectively (people trying to break through a bottle neck for example) they were meant to be easy to use and dangerously powerful.
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I don't have the rules but aiming at the runners their feet seems wrong, since it tries to avoid the opposed test. You should just keep them separated for now.
I would, however, like an official ruling on this one day for running Missions. :)
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I want to see the rules on wireless grenades actually. I'm not sure the abbreviated summary here is telling the whole story.
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There is no dodge test for Grenades. It's a straight up single threshold test. WHether you're throwing at ground or at a runner, the test is the same. It's a THrowing + Agility [Physical] (3) test.
There are no rules for catching or throwing a Grenade back yet. Those are traditionally in the first Combat expansion, and I have no reason to think they won;t be this time around.
Grenades only stack a little. You get +1/2 DV for the second grenade only. You get no extra DV for grenades past the second. You get -1 AP per grenade past the first.
So three HE Grenades hit the same location and go off on the same action (16P, -2 AP base damage). They will do a combined damage of 24P with a -4 AP.
Grenades are dangerous. Also remember that they can be set off by fun things like fireballs.
Bull
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Funny, I was going to be picking up fireball anyways. Now I have even more reason to do so. :)
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There is no dodge test for Grenades. It's a straight up single threshold test. WHether you're throwing at ground or at a runner, the test is the same. It's a THrowing + Agility [Physical] (3) test.
There are no rules for catching or throwing a Grenade back yet. Those are traditionally in the first Combat expansion, and I have no reason to think they won;t be this time around.
Grenades only stack a little. You get +1/2 DV for the second grenade only. You get no extra DV for grenades past the second. You get -1 AP per grenade past the first.
So three HE Grenades hit the same location and go off on the same action (16P, -2 AP base damage). They will do a combined damage of 24P with a -4 AP.
Grenades are dangerous. Also remember that they can be set off by fun things like fireballs.
Bull
Then what does "This method uses the standard Ranged Attack rules but adds an extra step if it misses the target (no net hits on attack roll)" (SR5O 181) mean under the entry for Motion Sensor? Especially when special grenades rules are listed before in the same section? If you never target a person with a grenade, then how does one get the Targeted by an Area-Affect Attack defense modifier which stats "Apply a -2 modifier when trying to defend against weapons like spells, grenades, rockets, or missiles with a blast or area effect (SR5O 190)" for things other than spells? Rockets and missiles fall under the same heading as grenade launchers so they full under the same rules.
I will admit that the grenade stacking only applies to two grenades because it explicitly says "when two explosions occur on the same Combat Initiative Score and both blast effect the same character add half the value of the lower DVs to the highest DV and apply it all as a single modified Damage Value for the purposes of Damage Resistance tests. For AP calculations, use the best AP and improve it by 1 for every additional explosion (SR5O 183)." That means technically a lot of stuff could happen when three or more grenades blow. They could merge together like you say, you could start merging them so the first grenade adds to the second which then adds to the third, or they could pair off (so it's one 24P blast and a second 16P blast).
Honestly, grenades and other explosives have enough drawbacks that they aren't the go-to weapon for all situations. It's just that two grenades are a huge deal and need to be factored into all combats particularly why they aren't grenades used by either side this fight. There's also Flash-Bang which do the still respectable 10S -4 AP and have far fewer drawbacks and are restricted legality. They don't even have drop off due to range so you could multiple attack with them and a bit of missing won't matter.
I do think there ought to be a "dive for cover" interrupt action that gives you some movement "early" for this and other AE attacks. My off the cuff thought is -10 Initiative Score, allows you to move your agility in meters (or just 1-2 meters) and makes you prone. Hit the Dirt is close, but just leaves you in place.
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I'd say test Reaction + Edge with 1 meter per hit and a -5 to init just like Intercept or hit the dirt myself.
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Interaction between Motion Sensor Grenades, ArmTech MGL-12 using a Complex Action to fire a Semi Automatic Burst, Multiple Attacks and Multiple Simultaneous Blasts rules is unknown. We need a sidebar.
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I think grenades have become too lethal, or at least undodgeable wireless grenades are.
As they should be. Grenades are nothing to stick your nose up at.
Just remember, what works for the players, works for the NPCs... :) And if they get a reputation for throwing grenades, enemies will be much less likely to deal fairly with them.
How's does this work for Missions where characters come and go so easily?
*doh. For some reason I had it as rolling 16p absolutely no idea why I kept thinking that.
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16P -2 AP compared to 20 soak dices will result in around 10-12 damage + net hits. Yeah, with usual 10 boxes of life thats pretty ... lethal. Or was the armor system revamped?
MfG
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I think grenades have become too lethal, or at least undodgeable wireless grenades are.
16p-2ap compared to 12-15 armor? That's going to average out to 0-2 damage? That's too lethal to you?
Just remember, what works for the players, works for the NPCs... :) And if they get a reputation for throwing grenades, enemies will be much less likely to deal fairly with them.
How's does this work for Missions where characters come and go so easily?
Um the 12/15 armor only soaks damage if you roll a success (a 5 or a six on a six sided die) the 16 P does 16 Damage that needs to be soaked if it connects ALL THE TIME.
1 Damage can only be soaked on average by THREE opposing armor.
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I think grenades have become too lethal, or at least undodgeable wireless grenades are.
As they should be. Grenades are nothing to stick your nose up at.
Correct, grenades being an actual threat is good. But 3 hits on an unopposed test meaning you kill someone seems... Off. So I really can't wait until I have the full rules in my own hands.
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Well, the rules have already been explained by Bull.
SYL
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An explanation which some found to not match the rules in their Origins edition, so I'll wait until I got the exact rules in my own hands before I draw conclusions.
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An explanation which some found to not match the rules in their Origins edition, so I'll wait until I got the exact rules in my own hands before I draw conclusions.
You and me both!
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There is no dodge test for Grenades. It's a straight up single threshold test. WHether you're throwing at ground or at a runner, the test is the same. It's a THrowing + Agility [Physical] (3) test.
There are no rules for catching or throwing a Grenade back yet. Those are traditionally in the first Combat expansion, and I have no reason to think they won;t be this time around.
Grenades only stack a little. You get +1/2 DV for the second grenade only. You get no extra DV for grenades past the second. You get -1 AP per grenade past the first.
So three HE Grenades hit the same location and go off on the same action (16P, -2 AP base damage). They will do a combined damage of 24P with a -4 AP.
Grenades are dangerous. Also remember that they can be set off by fun things like fireballs.
Bull
Quick question, I know its been this way since SR1. But why can't you dodge grenades when you can dodege the fireball or the bullet. A grenade is moving at you a ton slower as a fireball, so why isn't there the standard reaction+intuition test vs grenades?
Edit apparently in the magic thread you mention indirect area spells use the same rule 3 hits and you hit the area. Not overpowered with magic since you wont be casting any force 12 fireballs.
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Who casts Fireball anyway? The Drain on those stupid things was way to high.
Better to use a grenade in most cases.
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Why wouldn't you cast a force 12 something in the right circumstances. 1 or 2 body is worth instant killing a bunch of things. Goooooo Mana Bolt aka Splat Spell!
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Personally, I don't understand how a grenade is allowed to explode wirelessly with this new MEGA GOD CONTROLLED MATRIX 3.0. If security really is this strong and pervasive, why would any grenade be allowed to explode in populous areas, especially high sec zones?
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Shinobi: You can't dodge a Fireball now. Area of Effect Indirect COmbat Spells now use the same rules as grenades, including scatter.
Wildcard: The Matrix and GODs are pervasive, but they are not everywhere at once. It takes a little while for them to track you and shut you down. Something that's just a quick little action like a wireless grenade? Impossible to track because it isn't active long enough. Plus, corp security sometimes uses grenades.
Bull
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That's what we're trying to figure out, how easy is it to hack the grenades while they are on your belt in the crunch (or can you even can you have the wireless option turned off 95% of the time and then take 20 seconds to turn their wireless on before you go into combat for example?) at the moment.
Also as for the "interrupt action to dive for cover" my counter point would be "A: "I am simply looking at rules as written." And B:If your action has already cost your opponent his action, and possibly some of his friends actions because it is an AOE attack, then you good sir are already winning this fight even without doing any damage, simply based on the action economy."
But RAW doesn't seem to have rules for targeting a spot on the ground with an impact grenade. "Targeting a spot on the ground" to hit someone is a product of the abstraction inherent in the rules. It doesn't make sense if you think of a real combat where people are constantly in motion. Essentially trying to hit someone with the grenade is the same action as throwing it at their feet, and should be resisted the same way. If you choose to allow an abuse of the abstraction by throwing the grenade at someone but not really at them... well its your game.
OK. Now I dont see grenade as single target weapon. I rather see grenade as targeted to group of people. What would be the target in such case?
Shinobi: You can't dodge a Fireball now. Area of Effect Indirect COmbat Spells now use the same rules as grenades, including scatter.
Bull
Does it mean that if you see grenade flying down the corridor, you are supposed to stand your ground and get blasted, or is there any way you can try to get the hell out of the spot before it hits the ground?
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Much like real life, you're pretty much boned. If you get to act before it goes off, run. Otherwise... How do you dodge something that coats the entire area in shrapnel and fire and death?
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I'd like to also add that you would have to be a special kind of stupid to leave your grenades wirelessly active while they are on your person.
I think using a simple action to turn on the wireless before you throw it would be much safer. That would let you detonate it on your next IP instead of waiting for it to run down it's timer.
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I'd like to also add that you would have to be a special kind of stupid to leave your grenades wirelessly active while they are on your person.
I think using a simple action to turn on the wireless before you throw it would be much safer. That would let you detonate it on your next IP instead of waiting for it to run down it's timer.
It detonates on the next IP with a timed grenades anyway. Also last time I checked it was a complex action to throw a grenade so you would be spending one turn just priming the grenade unable to throw it. (Not sure if you can shoot grenades as a simple action from an Ares Alpha.)
If you use wireless grenades you can detonate them as a free action the same ip you throw/shoot them which denies your target any normal action to get out of the target zone.
What you do is slave your wireless grenades to your decker's deck. If that gets hacked your entire team is gonna get creamed one way or another at least with wireless grenades it will be quick.
You are correct though that runners probably carry wireless grenades set to off till about one minute before combat (assuming they can decide when to initiate combat) then turn them on right efore initiatives get rolled out,
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Much like real life, you're pretty much boned. If you get to act before it goes off, run. Otherwise... How do you dodge something that coats the entire area in shrapnel and fire and death?
Jump behind some obstacle?
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But that was not the point. Tell your favourite Amish brass lantern thrower to throw brass lantern full of oil at you from, lets say, 20 meters (skip the part that Amish do not know what meter is)
Watch him throwing
watch the lantern flying
Do nothing, because if I understand the way it works from examples above, you are already burned to death.
Or is it different?
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are grenades just massively more deadly/effective than guns now?
Grenades are powerful? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHJ6yGS1oLo) Gasp!
Is that made explicit? Because "oh shit, grenade" *gets away from it* is gonna work about the same either way.
Let me be clear: I think anybody who says you can't dodge a grenade (particularly when you can dodge bullets) is wrong. I think that the success test is for if you're trying to cause environmental damage or just suppressive fire, whereas trying to throw the grenade as close to their feet as possible is the opposed test. I think it's just the only sensible interpretation.
it also sort of begs the question "what if I shoot at the ground"
If you're targeting the ground, you're explicitly not aiming as close to the person. Less damage by whatever mechanism you choose to describe.
That's what we're trying to figure out, how easy is it to hack the grenades while they are on your belt in the crunch
I won't pretend to know exactly how grenades in 2075 are, but I know that now grenades have multiple layers of safeties. The microgrenades fired by launcher do not actually arm until a set distance - this is accomplished by a spin sensor. That's why if you drop your grenade, you can pick it back up no problem, but if it starts rolling down a hill, do not go running after it!
I think grenades have become too lethal, or at least undodgeable wireless grenades are.
Until the core book, and maybe 5E's 'unwired' book, we may not know if there are jammers or counter-explosive attack programs that hack and disable incoming grenades. I know I would want such a system in place, particularly if I was a rich megacorp or PMC, though it's unknown if the creators wanted such a system in Shadowrun.
If you do not want to overcast and risk coughing up a lung a mage has to get to magic 8 before he can cast a spell which is a better AOE than a rigger with an Ares Alpha firing HE grenades.
I see no problem with this. A mage is a rather utilitarian person, able to covertly bring his arsenal with him and only has to worry about drain, a heavy gunner has to lug around a big, obvious weapon with definitively limited ammo. Keep in mind that part of the balance of technology vs magic is that spellcasting can do more things than any individual piece of technology (though a sufficiently prepared technologist can do basically the same things).
There is no dodge test for Grenades. It's a straight up single threshold test. WHether you're throwing at ground or at a runner, the test is the same.
I disagree with this application/rule, (granted, I would think it an interrupt action that eats into later actions) but I also acknowledge that it's consistent. That's at least one mark I can agree to.
If anybody who has seen 5E could enlighten us (yet), that would likely shed light on the situation. Until then, we're all going to have to wait until 5E.
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are grenades just massively more deadly/effective than guns now?
Grenades are powerful? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHJ6yGS1oLo) Gasp!
Is that made explicit? Because "oh shit, grenade" *gets away from it* is gonna work about the same either way.
Let me be clear: I think anybody who says you can't dodge a grenade (particularly when you can dodge bullets) is wrong. I think that the success test is for if you're trying to cause environmental damage or just suppressive fire, whereas trying to throw the grenade as close to their feet as possible is the opposed test. I think it's just the only sensible interpretation.
it also sort of begs the question "what if I shoot at the ground"
If you're targeting the ground, you're explicitly not aiming as close to the person. Less damage by whatever mechanism you choose to describe.
That's what we're trying to figure out, how easy is it to hack the grenades while they are on your belt in the crunch
I won't pretend to know exactly how grenades in 2075 are, but I know that now grenades have multiple layers of safeties. The microgrenades fired by launcher do not actually arm until a set distance - this is accomplished by a spin sensor. That's why if you drop your grenade, you can pick it back up no problem, but if it starts rolling down a hill, do not go running after it!
I think grenades have become too lethal, or at least undodgeable wireless grenades are.
Until the core book, and maybe 5E's 'unwired' book, we may not know if there are jammers or counter-explosive attack programs that hack and disable incoming grenades. I know I would want such a system in place, particularly if I was a rich megacorp or PMC, though it's unknown if the creators wanted such a system in Shadowrun.
If you do not want to overcast and risk coughing up a lung a mage has to get to magic 8 before he can cast a spell which is a better AOE than a rigger with an Ares Alpha firing HE grenades.
I see no problem with this. A mage is a rather utilitarian person, able to covertly bring his arsenal with him and only has to worry about drain, a heavy gunner has to lug around a big, obvious weapon with definitively limited ammo. Keep in mind that part of the balance of technology vs magic is that spellcasting can do more things than any individual piece of technology (though a sufficiently prepared technologist can do basically the same things).
There is no dodge test for Grenades. It's a straight up single threshold test. WHether you're throwing at ground or at a runner, the test is the same.
I disagree with this application/rule, (granted, I would think it an interrupt action that eats into later actions) but I also acknowledge that it's consistent. That's at least one mark I can agree to.
If anybody who has seen 5E could enlighten us (yet), that would likely shed light on the situation. Until then, we're all going to have to wait until 5E.
Wireless grenades are actually stupidly easy to set off as you only need one mark on them to make them explode as a free action,
The meat of the mater is what can you do to make it hard/impractical for their decker to get a mark on your grenades....
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Or you don't use wireless grenades, because the risk of antagonist-triggered corporeal-proximal detonation is unacceptably high. That, of the same mechanical arming mechanism also enables the wireless link.
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Or you don't use wireless grenades, because the risk of antagonist-triggered corporeal-proximal detonation is unacceptably high. That, of the same mechanical arming mechanism also enables the wireless link.
Slave both to your decker's deck, if your decker can not keep his own machine from getting hacked then you are going to die one way or another at least grenades are fast.
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I'd like to also add that you would have to be a special kind of stupid to leave your grenades wirelessly active while they are on your person.
I think using a simple action to turn on the wireless before you throw it would be much safer. That would let you detonate it on your next IP instead of waiting for it to run down it's timer.
It detonates on the next IP with a timed grenades anyway. Also last time I checked it was a complex action to throw a grenade so you would be spending one turn just priming the grenade unable to throw it. (Not sure if you can shoot grenades as a simple action from an Ares Alpha.)
If you use wireless grenades you can detonate them as a free action the same ip you throw/shoot them which denies your target any normal action to get out of the target zone.
What you do is slave your wireless grenades to your decker's deck. If that gets hacked your entire team is gonna get creamed one way or another at least with wireless grenades it will be quick.
You are correct though that runners probably carry wireless grenades set to off till about one minute before combat (assuming they can decide when to initiate combat) then turn them on right efore initiatives get rolled out,
Few things:
- In SR5 the throw weapon action is simple.
- The Timer Grenade detonates on the next combat turn, on the initiative it was thrown -10.
- The Motion Sensor Grenade explodes on the same IP that it is thrown in, and if you glitch, the scatter is doubled and it immediately explodes. If you critically glitch, it blows up in your hand.
- The wireless Link Grenade is the safest, as you can activate it as a free action (with DNI) or as a simple action, detonating it immediately. If it scatters funny, you don't blow up your friends. If you miss, you don't blow up yourself.
I stand by the wireless link being the safest option, if it goes where you want, you detonate it immediately, if it doesn't, you turn the wireless off.
Provided you have the grenade readied (in hand): Simple action to turn on wireless > Simple action to throw > free action to change device mode (explode or deactivate wireless)
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I'd like to also add that you would have to be a special kind of stupid to leave your grenades wirelessly active while they are on your person.
I think using a simple action to turn on the wireless before you throw it would be much safer. That would let you detonate it on your next IP instead of waiting for it to run down it's timer.
It detonates on the next IP with a timed grenades anyway. Also last time I checked it was a complex action to throw a grenade so you would be spending one turn just priming the grenade unable to throw it. (Not sure if you can shoot grenades as a simple action from an Ares Alpha.)
If you use wireless grenades you can detonate them as a free action the same ip you throw/shoot them which denies your target any normal action to get out of the target zone.
What you do is slave your wireless grenades to your decker's deck. If that gets hacked your entire team is gonna get creamed one way or another at least with wireless grenades it will be quick.
You are correct though that runners probably carry wireless grenades set to off till about one minute before combat (assuming they can decide when to initiate combat) then turn them on right efore initiatives get rolled out,
Few things:
- In SR5 the throw weapon action is simple.
- The Timer Grenade detonates on the next combat turn, on the initiative it was thrown -10.
- The Motion Sensor Grenade explodes on the same IP that it is thrown in, and if you glitch, the scatter is doubled and it immediately explodes. If you critically glitch, it blows up in your hand.
- The wireless Link Grenade is the safest, as you can activate it as a free action (with DNI) or as a simple action, detonation it immediately. If it scatters funny, you don't blow up your friends. If you miss, you don't blow up yourself.
The wireless link grenade would actually be the least safe, since it can be activated by something other than flying out of a launcher, or being physically actuated by the user. I do like the idea of mixing timer grenades with suppressive fire to create No-Win situations without having to deal with the risk of someone remote detonating it.
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I'd like to also add that you would have to be a special kind of stupid to leave your grenades wirelessly active while they are on your person.
I think using a simple action to turn on the wireless before you throw it would be much safer. That would let you detonate it on your next IP instead of waiting for it to run down it's timer.
It detonates on the next IP with a timed grenades anyway. Also last time I checked it was a complex action to throw a grenade so you would be spending one turn just priming the grenade unable to throw it. (Not sure if you can shoot grenades as a simple action from an Ares Alpha.)
If you use wireless grenades you can detonate them as a free action the same ip you throw/shoot them which denies your target any normal action to get out of the target zone.
What you do is slave your wireless grenades to your decker's deck. If that gets hacked your entire team is gonna get creamed one way or another at least with wireless grenades it will be quick.
You are correct though that runners probably carry wireless grenades set to off till about one minute before combat (assuming they can decide when to initiate combat) then turn them on right efore initiatives get rolled out,
Few things:
- In SR5 the throw weapon action is simple.
- The Timer Grenade detonates on the next combat turn, on the initiative it was thrown -10.
- The Motion Sensor Grenade explodes on the same IP that it is thrown in, and if you glitch, the scatter is doubled and it immediately explodes. If you critically glitch, it blows up in your hand.
- The wireless Link Grenade is the safest, as you can activate it as a free action (with DNI) or as a simple action, detonating it immediately. If it scatters funny, you don't blow up your friends. If you miss, you don't blow up yourself.
Thank you for correction.
Of course as many have pointed out, wireless is only "safest" if it does not get hacked and detonated while on your belt/in your chamber,
My rejoinder to that argument is that slave it to the decker since if your decker can not keep his own deck secure any shadowrunning you intend to do has already broken both legs right out of the starting gate.
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But that was not the point. Tell your favourite Amish brass lantern thrower to throw brass lantern full of oil at you from, lets say, 20 meters (skip the part that Amish do not know what meter is)
Watch him throwing
watch the lantern flying
Do nothing, because if I understand the way it works from examples above, you are already burned to death.
Or is it different?
1) I'll try not to take offense at you pulling out some Amish reference as an insult.
2) You do nothing, because it's not your turn. You can't move on your action under other circumstances. You can try and dodge bullets a little, but those aren't blanketing a 10 meter area with death and fire either. A little juking and ducking isn't going to do jack-all against a grenade or a fireball.
3) To also answer your earlier question, "ducking behind cover" would assume that there is good cover where you're already standing. Since this isn't a universal constant, it's not a blanket rule. I do agree that there should be some situational bonuses for being behind cover versus a grenade, but at the moment the rules do not include those. Simply put, area of effect hits everything in an area.
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The wireless link grenade would actually be the least safe, since it can be activated by something other than flying out of a launcher, or being physically actuated by the user. I do like the idea of mixing timer grenades with suppressive fire to create No-Win situations without having to deal with the risk of someone remote detonating it.
Of course as many have pointed out, wireless is only "safest" if it does not get hacked and detonated while on your belt/in your chamber,
My rejoinder to that argument is that slave it to the decker since if your decker can not keep his own deck secure any shadowrunning you intend to do has already broken both legs right out of the starting gate.
I think you both may misunderstand:
The grenade will not be wireless until you use a simple action to 'change device mode' (This is a physical action, like flipping a switch or pressing a button on the device.)
This means that in my example above, the grenade is wirelessly active only during your IP, and no third parties would be able to hack it. The grenade isn't WA on your belt, and If you missed, you would deactivate the wireless, rendering it impossible to hack.
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But that was not the point. Tell your favourite Amish brass lantern thrower to throw brass lantern full of oil at you from, lets say, 20 meters (skip the part that Amish do not know what meter is)
Watch him throwing
watch the lantern flying
Do nothing, because if I understand the way it works from examples above, you are already burned to death.
Or is it different?
1) I'll try not to take offense at you pulling out some Amish reference as an insult.
Never intended, if it sounded like that, sorry. We had some conversation, and made some Amish taxi drivers related jokes together before, so I meant it just like that...joke...
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The wireless link grenade would actually be the least safe, since it can be activated by something other than flying out of a launcher, or being physically actuated by the user. I do like the idea of mixing timer grenades with suppressive fire to create No-Win situations without having to deal with the risk of someone remote detonating it.
Of course as many have pointed out, wireless is only "safest" if it does not get hacked and detonated while on your belt/in your chamber,
My rejoinder to that argument is that slave it to the decker since if your decker can not keep his own deck secure any shadowrunning you intend to do has already broken both legs right out of the starting gate.
I think you both may misunderstand:
The grenade will not be wireless until you use a simple action to 'change device mode' (This is a physical action, like flipping a switch or pressing a button on the device.)
This means that in my example above, the grenade is wirelessly active only during your IP, and no third parties would be able to hack it. The grenade isn't WA on your belt, and If you missed, you would deactivate the wireless, rendering it impossible to hack.
Ah okay now I see your point, yes that should work in theory assumeing you can turn off the wireless function of wireless grenades.
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Never intended, if it sounded like that, sorry. We had some conversation, and made some Amish taxi drivers related jokes together before, so I meant it just like that...joke...
Ok, it's cool, just misread that, I guess. All good :)
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But that was not the point. Tell your favourite Amish brass lantern thrower to throw brass lantern full of oil at you from, lets say, 20 meters (skip the part that Amish do not know what meter is)
Watch him throwing
watch the lantern flying
Do nothing, because if I understand the way it works from examples above, you are already burned to death.
Or is it different?
2) You do nothing, because it's not your turn. You can't move on your action under other circumstances. You can try and dodge bullets a little, but those aren't blanketing a 10 meter area with death and fire either. A little juking and ducking isn't going to do jack-all against a grenade or a fireball.
3) To also answer your earlier question, "ducking behind cover" would assume that there is good cover where you're already standing. Since this isn't a universal constant, it's not a blanket rule. I do agree that there should be some situational bonuses for being behind cover versus a grenade, but at the moment the rules do not include those. Simply put, area of effect hits everything in an area.
2] And yet the survival rate for grenades is surprisingly high for something that hits everything in an area with fire and death. Simply dropping prone a couple meters from where the grenade goes off vastly increases survival rates. You have a much better chance of avoiding grenade damage in many situations than you do have of dodging a bullet. I think you are mistaking hollywood grenades for grenades and while in some places hollywood makes a better game inescapable death from hollywood doesn't seem to make a better game IMO.
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Do you really want to do the math of blast patterns, fragmentation trajectories, and all the rest each and every time a grenade goes off? Sometimes things are simplified because this is a game, and not a military simulator.
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Shadowrun is modelled off of movie-physics and logic than real life physics and logic. Because movie world is more fun than real world.
Also, future grenades are not modern grenades. Similar, but more powerful.
*shurg*
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I like my games to be played hollywood block buster style with a ton of anime thrown in.
So. I say we keep real world physics where they belong. :)
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Do you really want to do the math of blast patterns, fragmentation trajectories, and all the rest each and every time a grenade goes off? Sometimes things are simplified because this is a game, and not a military simulator.
Um yeah and I think sticking with the standard reaction+iintuition is simplified, a new threshold rule for one case is more complicated. And yeah hollywood physics are cool, it is not cool to instant kill any target because as bull pointed out it can be used against the PCs. Weapons should not be balanced by the threat of the GM using them.
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Do frags still have +5 AP? Because I can say from RL experience, that grenades do not give a drek if you are wearing armor, although being behind a couch may or may not help.
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Do frags still have +5 AP? Because I can say from RL experience, that grenades do not give a drek if you are wearing armor, although being behind a couch may or may not help.
Reportedly yes they do but I thnk they are like 18 or 20 Dv so 5 armor wont make much of a difference.
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Do frags still have +5 AP? Because I can say from RL experience, that grenades do not give a drek if you are wearing armor, although being behind a couch may or may not help.
Reportedly yes they do but I thnk they are like 18 or 20 Dv so 5 armor wont make much of a difference.
It is 18DV +5 Ap and take one fewer a point of DV for every meter you are away from the grenade for frag grenades.
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That will do.
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Can I have a Dev ruling for 5ed for whether attaching TNT to a feral cat and throwing it counts as a timed, motion sensor or wireless grenade function please?
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Can I have a Dev ruling for 5ed for whether attaching TNT to a feral cat and throwing it counts as a timed, motion sensor or wireless grenade function please?
Just like Gaia prevents nukes from going off, runners who would try this suddenly find themselves choking to death on their own recently removed genitals.
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Can I have a Dev ruling for 5ed for whether attaching TNT to a feral cat and throwing it counts as a timed, motion sensor or wireless grenade function please?
How long is the fuse on the dynamite? 'Cause it would suck of the feral cat got it's claws into you and the TNT was on a 3 second fuse.
I would also expect that the character in question would smell of cat pee and be making a resistance test to a number of vicious infections from the angry feline clawing and biting. Or possibly Wildcard's response, all depends on the GM I suppose.
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Can I have a Dev ruling for 5ed for whether attaching TNT to a feral cat and throwing it counts as a timed, motion sensor or wireless grenade function please?
How long is the fuse on the dynamite? 'Cause it would suck of the feral cat got it's claws into you and the TNT was on a 3 second fuse.
I would also expect that the character in question would smell of cat pee and be making a resistance test to a number of vicious infections from the angry feline clawing and biting. Or possibly Wildcard's response, all depends on the GM I suppose.
That's all just part of the fun. ;)
(http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/images/2216/89433.jpg)
P121 - 122. My absolute favourite bit of shadowrun writing. (Sorry Canray)
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(Sorry Canray)
That's OK. It's "Beat Up CanRay" all the time anyhow.
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That's OK. It's "Beat Up CanRay" all the time anyhow.
It got old quick. Like picking on the kid who wore a helmet all the time, only the depraved kept doing it.
^_^
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That's OK. It's "Beat Up CanRay" all the time anyhow./quote]It got old quick. Like picking on the kid who wore a helmet all the time, only the depraved kept doing it.
^_^
I knew there was a reason I was feeling less and less welcome at Dumpshock...
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I would HATE to do Silver Platter in SR5, by the way.
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Can I have a Dev ruling for 5ed for whether attaching TNT to a feral cat and throwing it counts as a timed, motion sensor or wireless grenade function please?
Timed, of course.
I can think of several modifications I'd like to do on grenades now that I can readily buy ones smart enough to detonate when told to by radio; in particular, I'm very keen on ultrasound-activated grenades (with a passphrase, of course).
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While there's nothing RAW about the Hit The Deck interrupt action that seems to affect grenades, it would be relatively simple to house rule something for that situation, same as cover. Use barrier rules for anything LOS between you and the center of the blast, and perhaps HTD doubles the effective number of meters from the blast? 16P grenade lands at your buddy's feet 4 meters away, take an interrupt to Hit The Deck, those 4 meters become effectively 8 now you're only resisting an 8P . If there's a wooden crate between you, then use standard barrier rules, anything that overflows the barrier affects you.
Both of those options still work with grenades being used as suppressive fire, as it takes an action to stand up from prone, and they lose -5 Initiative.
Ideally this isn't something that should have to be house ruled, but game designers are human, and likely spend a great deal of their day replying to agitated gamers with numerous and varied opinions on exactly how each little rule should work. That's why house rules exist. They can't predict how every player will react to any given rule, nor can they make every single one happy. So far I'm pretty happy with the job they've done, even if I'm going to press my GM for a number of house rules.
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So just so I'm clear on RAW. as far as I can tell.
Starting with a wireless grenade on your belt with wireless disabled.
1 Ready Weapon Simple Action
1 Change Device Mode Simple Action to Enable Wireless
1 Throw Weapon Simple Action
1 Change Linked Device Free Action to detonate the now wirelessly enabled grenade.
Does that appear to be correct?
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From my borrowed Origins copy: 'Grenades: When throwing a grenade, choose a location as a target. Use Throw Weapon Simple Action and make a Throwing Weapons + Agility[Physical] (3) Test modified for range and all the usual conditions.' So, throwing a grenade is a simple action, assuming of course you have one readied.
Also from my copy, referring to Wireless Link: This is the safest way to throw a grenade in some aspects, but it also comes with some risk and effort. The thrower(or anyone else who has a Mark on the grenade) cane detonate it by a wireless link. This requires the attacker to have a DNI to the linked device and use the Change Wireless Device Mode Free Action. This method also reduces scatter. Without a DNI the attacker must use the Change Linked Device Mode Simple Action in their next or any of their subsequent Action Phases to detonate the grenade and scatter is not reduced.
Firing grenades from a weapon work the same way, you can not target an individual, you always target a location, with the same (3) Threshold.
So, when throwing a grenade you use one Simple Action to Ready it, and a second SA to throw, all in the same round. If you have a DNI it detonates that same round with no scatter, otherwise you gota deal with scatter and it goes off in subsequent Action Phases, depending on fuse/trigger.
When firing from a weapon the only difference appears to be you don't need to use a Ready Action.
And again with both modes you don't target a person; you target an area, hence there is never a Dodge roll, just a Damage Resistance Test.
Yes, grenades are a lot more deadly than firearms, and they should be.
Oh, also, yes my GM got hold of an Origins copy and in his infinite generosity is allowing me to borrow it, knowing how dear to me this game is.
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hmm is it possible to delay your action as a hacker, to give you a chance to hack the wireless grenade as it is flying towards you?
what about an agent program or whatever keeping guard in the matrix, it's only job is to look out for explosive devices and either neutralise or detonate them to protect your team? Does that work?
I suppose the best counter to grenade users is keep in melee with them, they wont want to blow themselves up (er, usually, super tank trolls excepted).
Fireballs etc blowing up people's grenades on them are also a deterrent.
Personally i think the availability for grenades and all explosives should be very high, something like 20 minimum. And come with some kind of special increased unwanted attention style rule from authorities or your opponents. I havent read about that stuff yet this edition but there used to be something about that in SR4. That woudl at least make grenade use quite rareish (which i suppose it will be anyway, but even more so). I suppose these are easy houserules to implement.
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I suppose the best counter to grenade users is keep in melee with them, they wont want to blow themselves up (er, usually, super tank trolls excepted).
What about the Troll who carries around 20 kilos of C-12 rigged to a Dead Man's Switch that detonates the explosives if he ever falls unconscious? :P
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I suppose the best counter to grenade users is keep in melee with them, they wont want to blow themselves up (er, usually, super tank trolls excepted).
What about the Troll who carries around 20 kilos of C-12 rigged to a Dead Man's Switch that detonates the explosives if he ever falls unconscious? :P
He explodes prematurely for dozing off in the car before getting to the mission, killing dozens.
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I suppose the best counter to grenade users is keep in melee with them, they wont want to blow themselves up (er, usually, super tank trolls excepted).
What about the Troll who carries around 20 kilos of C-12 rigged to a Dead Man's Switch that detonates the explosives if he ever falls unconscious? :P
He explodes prematurely for dozing off in the car before getting to the mission, killing dozens.
Not sure if trollin...
I mean...some of my players are using explosives in this ammount for some missions and I never got an idea that I should bully them for using explosives...
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I suppose the best counter to grenade users is keep in melee with them, they wont want to blow themselves up (er, usually, super tank trolls excepted).
What about the Troll who carries around 20 kilos of C-12 rigged to a Dead Man's Switch that detonates the explosives if he ever falls unconscious? :P
He explodes prematurely for dozing off in the car before getting to the mission, killing dozens.
Not sure if trollin...
I mean...some of my players are using explosives in this ammount for some missions and I never got an idea that I should bully them for using explosives...
Just had another thought...wondering if the overlapping explosions and chunky salsa rules apply to Demolitions explosives as well. If so, Ewww.
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I'm trying to figure out why a grenade has a Ten Meter Blast Range!
Cause, holy crap those are Hollywood boom booms!
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I'm trying to figure out why a grenade has a Ten Meter Blast Range!
Cause, holy crap those are Hollywood boom booms!
"Horizon Munitions: Yes, it's exactly like in the 'trids!" ;D
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I'm trying to figure out why a grenade has a Ten Meter Blast Range!
Cause, holy crap those are Hollywood boom booms!
"Horizon Munitions: Yes, it's exactly like in the 'trids!" ;D
*sigh*
Being prior service makes it hard to game sometimes.
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I suppose the best counter to grenade users is keep in melee with them, they wont want to blow themselves up (er, usually, super tank trolls excepted).
What about the Troll who carries around 20 kilos of C-12 rigged to a Dead Man's Switch that detonates the explosives if he ever falls unconscious? :P
He explodes prematurely for dozing off in the car before getting to the mission, killing dozens.
Not sure if trollin...
I mean...some of my players are using explosives in this ammount for some missions and I never got an idea that I should bully them for using explosives...
Just had another thought...wondering if the overlapping explosions and chunky salsa rules apply to Demolitions explosives as well. If so, Ewww.
Grenades are your demolitions explosives. It takes what 9 kilos of rating 6(max at char gen) to equal the explosive force of 1 grenade.
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I'm trying to figure out why a grenade has a Ten Meter Blast Range!
Cause, holy crap those are Hollywood boom booms!
"Horizon Munitions: Yes, it's exactly like in the 'trids!" ;D
*sigh*
Being prior service makes it hard to game sometimes.
High explosive has 16P, -2/m and Frag has 18P -1/m. That gives high explosive an effective kill range of only 3 meters, and an injury range of 8 meters. The frag's got a kill range of 8 meters and an injury range of 18 meters.
When I was in the national guard, they told us the frag grenades would definitely kill you within 5 meters, and would make your life hell within 15. Adding 3 meters to the effective range in 60 years doesn't seem too ridiculous to me.
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I'm trying to figure out why a grenade has a Ten Meter Blast Range!
Cause, holy crap those are Hollywood boom booms!
"Horizon Munitions: Yes, it's exactly like in the 'trids!" ;D
*sigh*
Being prior service makes it hard to game sometimes.
High explosive has 16P, -2/m and Frag has 18P -1/m. That gives high explosive an effective kill range of only 3 meters, and an injury range of 8 meters. The frag's got a kill range of 8 meters and an injury range of 18 meters.
When I was in the national guard, they told us the frag grenades would definitely kill you within 5 meters, and would make your life hell within 15. Adding 3 meters to the effective range in 60 years doesn't seem too ridiculous to me.
True, I was going of a quote from Bull, I think, who called it 10. Besides, best defense against a grenade is going prone, soles towards the boom, in SR, the just means there is enough left of you to ID.
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Then again there are those weird freak survival stories from the field, like this poor Marine a couple of years ago that survived a point blank grenade, as far as they could tell, because there was a fist sized chunk of rock sticking out of the ground in the couple of feet between marine and grenade. He was injured and concussed but no major wounds or loss of limbs.
-k
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[When I was in the national guard, they told us the frag grenades would definitely kill you within 5 meters, and would make your life hell within 15. Adding 3 meters to the effective range in 60 years doesn't seem too ridiculous to me.
-- 5 meter killing zone? They lied to you. Or they confused casualty and killing.
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True, I was going of a quote from Bull, I think, who called it 10. Besides, best defense against a grenade is going prone, soles towards the boom, in SR, the just means there is enough left of you to ID.
I wish they had a drop prone rule for grenades like they do for suppression fire.They are so absurdly deadly in this editions that they are almost taken out of my arsenal as a GM. I get they were going for Hollywood, but I think they forgot the part that in Hollywood while the mooks sit there and take a grenade and die in a fiery explosion the heroes jump away and take minimal damage. There should be a dive for cover/hit the deck interrupt for explosions of all types.
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Then again there are those weird freak survival stories from the field, like this poor Marine a couple of years ago that survived a point blank grenade, as far as they could tell, because there was a fist sized chunk of rock sticking out of the ground in the couple of feet between marine and grenade. He was injured and concussed but no major wounds or loss of limbs.
-k
Dude burned some edge right there.
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I'm trying to figure out why a grenade has a Ten Meter Blast Range!
Cause, holy crap those are Hollywood boom booms!
"Horizon Munitions: Yes, it's exactly like in the 'trids!" ;D
*sigh*
Being prior service makes it hard to game sometimes.
High explosive has 16P, -2/m and Frag has 18P -1/m. That gives high explosive an effective kill range of only 3 meters, and an injury range of 8 meters. The frag's got a kill range of 8 meters and an injury range of 18 meters.
When I was in the national guard, they told us the frag grenades would definitely kill you within 5 meters, and would make your life hell within 15. Adding 3 meters to the effective range in 60 years doesn't seem too ridiculous to me.
Also, some nations have developed defensive grenades (designed to be used from a foxhole or trench), which have a blast radius generally greater than that which the average soldier can throw them (hence the need to be in some form of cover). Now fast-forward to the 2070s: I'm sure grenade development would have continued, rather than staying in place.
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[When I was in the national guard, they told us the frag grenades would definitely kill you within 5 meters, and would make your life hell within 15. Adding 3 meters to the effective range in 60 years doesn't seem too ridiculous to me.
-- 5 meter killing zone? They lied to you. Or they confused casualty and killing.
Nah, they just followed the K.I.S.S. principle when explaining things; they're not going to say "Ok, in the x to x range you are probably dead, in this range you have a x% chance of being dead, x% chance of a critical wound, and x% chance of being wounded, while in this range..."
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Plus, kill zone has a longer lasting mental image. "Maim zone" just makes me think of a factory in the 70s/80s.
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Plus, kill zone has a longer lasting mental image. "Maim zone" just makes me think of a factory in the 70s/80s.
The 1880's? ;D
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Yup, old school.
So back on topic, isn't the best defense to just have someone hack it if the wifi is on? Or have a wifi jammer? Or if it's set to timer, move somewhat quickly, like faster than a sloth? If you get hit by a timed grenade, you deserve to die. They're ridiculously slow.
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... good point - whats the device rating on a wireless grenade? looking at the table, 2 or 3? so buy a jammer 4, avail 12 for 1200 or so, see opponent ready grenade to throw. activate jammer and pray!
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Then again there are those weird freak survival stories from the field, like this poor Marine a couple of years ago that survived a point blank grenade, as far as they could tell, because there was a fist sized chunk of rock sticking out of the ground in the couple of feet between marine and grenade. He was injured and concussed but no major wounds or loss of limbs.
-k
Knew a Marine Warrant Officer that survived a grenade being rolled between his feet one tour. His wife and her boyfriend (another WO) decided to frag him for the insurance. He survived with a wicked scar on his forearm, and a divorce.
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... good point - whats the device rating on a wireless grenade? looking at the table, 2 or 3? so buy a jammer 4, avail 12 for 1200 or so, see opponent ready grenade to throw. activate jammer and pray!
If they have Wireless grenades....then you should just have the hacker hack the grenades and make them go boom.
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even better, but nevertheless not a bad back up plan if your hacker is busy... or unconscious already. or there may be no window for the hacker to hack, depending on action and phase sequence (not certain about this, bt for example, ready grenade (wireless off), next phase throw it, turn wireless on, detonate - can a hacker with a readied action interrupt the grenade mid flight and make it go boom? )
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It should probably be clarified that you can't simply wirelessly detonate the grenade until some sort of physical safety interlock (e.g. a pin) is removed. At least, to keep the wireless aspect a bit less insane 8)
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I guess that probably just means, until the pin is removed, you have the device wireless off. Pull out the pin, it's wireless is on.
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You can't throw and THEN turn wireless on, Psi. It'd be difficult to flip a switch when it's midair.
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hahaha sorry of course you're right, doh!
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hmm what about this though:
All in one phase:
A) wireless on (simple action, grenade is sitting on your belt or whatever)
B) quickdraw grenade and throw it in one simple action
c) free action detonate
Can i hacker interrupt here with a delayed action between (A) and (B) to make it go boom before it is thrown?
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That is such a good question. You're assuming the person has a DNI to the grenade, right? Otherwise that takes a simple action, too.
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hmm what about this though:
All in one phase:
A) wireless on (simple action, grenade is sitting on your belt or whatever)
B) quickdraw grenade and throw it in one simple action
c) free action detonate
Can i hacker interrupt here with a delayed action between (A) and (B) to make it go boom before it is thrown?
Unless you have a grenade holster, you can't quickdraw a grenade.
Only properly holstered weapons can be quickdrawn. They do not have to be in a quick-draw holster, but they do need to be in a holster or sheath or on a proper sling to be quick-drawn.
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I dont know Ryo, the way i read it, it says the item can be "on a proper sling" - wouldnt that include some kind of grenade holding webbing or bondolier or whatever? It says it doesnt have to be a "quick draw" holster, that just helps make it easier. But you cant just have the grenade sitting in your jacket pocket.
Anyways, if you can quickdraw a grenade from say a bandolier, I think i may make a small houserule tweak - namely no quickdrawing explosives!
@Baron - yeah i hadnt thought it all through but say impanted commlink sends the detonate signal as a free action ?
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I believe that's how it works, Psi. In that case, would your decker be waiting for a grenade to fly or going after the wifi-enabled commlink in the guy's head?
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yeah, just looking at the ready action rules, as i read it the delaying character can choose to get at the same time as the other person they were waiting for. You only have to break ties on delayed initiative if you have multiple people delaying.
So, the hacker sees the opponent has a grenade bandolier or whatever (assuming that allows quickdraw). Hacker delays his action. Opponent goes, turns his grenade wireless on .... then as he attempts to quickdraw it... the hacker intercedes at the same time ... and attempts to hack the grenade and detonate it. Or I suppose the hacker could also try to hack the commlink/other DNI device that is going to send the detonate signal after the grenade has been thown but before it reaches its target.
It's a little messy but i think i'd allow that. There is a definite opportunity cost to the hacker - if the opponent does not use the grenade the hacker just wasted his turn.
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Then again there are those weird freak survival stories from the field, like this poor Marine a couple of years ago that survived a point blank grenade, as far as they could tell, because there was a fist sized chunk of rock sticking out of the ground in the couple of feet between marine and grenade. He was injured and concussed but no major wounds or loss of limbs.
-k
Knew a Marine Warrant Officer that survived a grenade being rolled between his feet one tour. His wife and her boyfriend (another WO) decided to frag him for the insurance. He survived with a wicked scar on his forearm, and a divorce.
Grenades (explosions in general) are extremely unpredictable events. Maybe grenade damage would be better expressed in D6's rather than a straight damage code.
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Can I throw a grenade and then shoot it while still in the air with a called shot and causing it to explode. This way I get the "wireless detonation" without it being able to be hacked. Also, it sounds bad ass.
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haha awesome
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Only if your bullet penetrates the grenade's body, sparking it from the inside... assuming they work like modern grenades.
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That does sound really badass. Unfortunatley, with only one attack action per round you cannot do that. Now, your teammate that held their action? Sure! Just yell "Pull" before you throw it. :D
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Or, if you're a troll, just throw the enemy and yell "Pull!"
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LOL!
In Soviet Russia grenade thow you!
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That does sound really badass. Unfortunatley, with only one attack action per round you cannot do that. Now, your teammate that held their action? Sure! Just yell "Pull" before you throw it. :D
What if I didn't pull the pin, then its not an attack, its just me throwing a grenade, while shooting the grenade most certainly is an attack.
I'm just being facetious. I actually like the teamwork idea more anyway.
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Or, if you're a troll, just throw the enemy and yell "Pull!"
i think that mightbe themost awesome attack ever and it would work with a motion sensor grenade!
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LOL!
In Soviet Russia grenade thow you!
Walker Drone with functional arms and a self destruct mechanism?
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It would be difficult to detonate a grenade by shooting it. The filler is pretty insensitive. Explosive ammo might work.
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It would be difficult to detonate a grenade by shooting it. The filler is pretty insensitive. Explosive ammo might work.
Fireball it! ;)
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Place a fireball in the grenade set to explode when the grenade does?