Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Frankie the Fomori on <09-09-10/1414:23>
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I posted this on someone's blog when they said they had a problem with a tank with high armor. It was one of many thoughts i had about dealing with a tank player with out dooming him to a messy death and adding somthing to the plot line.
The situation is a ork player with Armor of 20+, he seems to be causing the GM some trouble with his camapaign.
I would create a situation that involves the creature Incubus with a Earth spirit. It would take some battle field control on your part to separate the party a little on a run though. But this could prove to be a very funny and humbling experience for our sweet Ork.
I would plan it with in a Corp office run, allow the runners to try to make it through with stealth and a good run plan. But if they trip the alarm then it is time for a controlled response from a NPC mage/ head of security at that site. I will use the name Mordath, who will have great physical security typical of most corps in place. But he will also have several contingency plans to deal with different Runners and their abilities.
One of them will include our Incubus, to set it up have several wagemages cast barrier spells to split off our tank from the party. Open the needed door, and inside will be a caged Incubus about 15 feet of the ground in a bullet proof glass cage. than have one or two earth elementals stationed nearby. The incubus will use its Desire Reflection and the spirits will use it’s binding power. You will then have an ork tripping out of his mind and stuck to the ground. Mordath, that bastard elf will have some sort of knock out gas to give the incubus and then some guards will come in and cuff old big and nasty.
Now we get into other party story mode, we have a team mate capture while they should be forced to leave…..maybe some drones firing rubber pellets at a high volume will convince them. They will either have to try to get the companion back, while our dandilion eater is having his merry way getting information/ trying out new tech/drugs on our not so free roaming tusker.
This NPC can be a one shot dude, or a bastard that re appears to slot off the party for games to come. maybe moving up the old corp ladder I hope this was useful,Take care enjoy your day.
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You can always use magic (it doesn't need to kill)
You can go with a big enough problem that gets him knocked out policecorp security show up arrest him take the gear he is later tossed out the armor is excessive so it stays.
Nothing saying the player can't rebuy it but that takes nuyen
Use the rules in arsenal (I think) armor wear an tear if he don't have armorer it breaks sooner or later.
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It's mean. It's Cruel and Sadistic. (But then so is your plot) but You could simply try at "Destroy *armor* Spell. Even if he has 10 pts or so of internal/cybernetic armor due to implants and such Halving it is going to put a serious crimp in Mr. Bulletproof's day.
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And Acid spells or the like lots of ways for the GM to destroy armor do it enough he may say screw it an go with less due to nuyen shortage.
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You could electrocute him, set him on fire, aim for the face, use levitation to hurl into the air then drop him, hurl explosives at him. There are lots of ways of dealing with excessive armor. Hell, hit him with a large truck. I don't care how armored you are, you get hit by 10 tons of speeding metal, you're not getting up. At least, not at first.
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You could electrocute him, set him on fire, aim for the face, use levitation to hurl into the air then drop him, hurl explosives at him. There are lots of ways of dealing with excessive armor. Hell, hit him with a large truck. I don't care how armored you are, you get hit by 10 tons of speeding metal, you're not getting up. At least, not at first.
For a second I thought you were talking about what I did to the Stormtroopers in Force: Unleashed.
Here's an idea... Have a supersoaker/Ares Squirt drench him in sugar water, then drop a case of fire ants on him.
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Fire ants, nice.
You could also spray him with nanotech. I can't think of a specific one right off, but I'm pretty sure there are at least a few that would ruin his day.
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Now thats evil!
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Imho, the question is: "WHAT type of problem does he have?" The best solution could also be simply talking to the player(s)...
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You could electrocute him, set him on fire, aim for the face, use levitation to hurl into the air then drop him, hurl explosives at him. There are lots of ways of dealing with excessive armor. Hell, hit him with a large truck. I don't care how armored you are, you get hit by 10 tons of speeding metal, you're not getting up. At least, not at first.
For a second I thought you were talking about what I did to the Stormtroopers in Force: Unleashed.
Here's an idea... Have a supersoaker/Ares Squirt drench him in sugar water, then drop a case of fire ants on him.
I am partial to the Squirt laced with DSMO and *insert drug of choice here*
;D
Used it to solve a rampaging troll problem once.
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You always use mana spells on the troll errr I mean the tank ork yeah that is the ticket.
Doesn't matter how much armor you have when the mage casts stunbolt. :)
A smart character will beat feet long before they are knocked out and may learn (though we are talking about an ork here) that stealth is a runner friend
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Remember that even if they have lots of armor, and can mitigate even large hits to the stun track, that enough bullets will kill ANYONE. Regardless of what armor they are wearing.
Remember, "If brute force isn't working, you aren't using enough of it."
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Here's an idea... Have a supersoaker/Ares Squirt drench him in sugar water, then drop a case of fire ants on him.
Sir, that is absolutely wicked. Sounds like this happened from experience! I'd love to hear the story.
OP: Another idea is explosives/grenades. Also, are you using encumbrance rules?
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For characters with high strength and body the encumbrance rules don't slow down the armor stack much especially when you use form fitting armor and the piece by piece add on armor.
Explosives though they use the impact armor often still won't penetrate a heavily armored character's "hide"
I still stand by my montra of always hit the troll (ork, or other heavily armored character) with the mana spells.
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Remember, "If brute force isn't working, you aren't using enough of it."
I concur, sir.
Explosives though they use the impact armor often still won't penetrate a heavily armored character's "hide"
If he's so heavily armored wouldn't anti-vehicle explosives work?
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Remember that even if they have lots of armor, and can mitigate even large hits to the stun track, that enough bullets will kill ANYONE. Regardless of what armor they are wearing.
Remember, "If brute force isn't working, you aren't using enough of it."
This reminds me of something from one of my favorite webcomic. Its called "the seven habits of highly effective pirates". Here are a few choice samples:
6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
12. A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.
13. Do unto others.
16. Your name is in the mouth of others: be sure it has teeth.
27. Don't be afraid to be the first to resort to violence
29. The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more. No less
34. If you’re leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun.
35. That which does not kill you has made a tactical error.
37. There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'
And one that is especially true in the shadows:
38. Just because it's easy for you doesn't mean it can't be hard on your clients
The rest can bee seen at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlock_Mercenary#The_Seven_Habits_of_Highly_Effective_Pirates
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Check my sig.
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Yeah, still lotsa ways to deal with the armour-bound tankork truck there.
Gas, mana spells, tight quarters close-fighting (see what kind of conditional penalties might be applied if he's stuck fighting in a vent), drowning - probably a few dice penalties for swimming with all that paddin'. Sonics - the elemental effect in Street Magic ignores that protective goodness...
And if all else fails? Non-combat encounters that are necessary for the run's success, involving the tank. Suddenly they need to talk their way out of an awkward situation - media coverage, somebody's loved ones found hostage, a dragon...sure, that one dude might survive if the lead starts flying, but if he starts it, and his friends all die or are horribly maimed, he's not gonna be very well-liked after that, is he?
Or a meet that requires everybody showing up unarmoured, and unarmed. Sneak in stuff? Sure, but no way are 20 points of layers getting unnoticed. Could be live, or could be a Matrix situation.
Enjoy the possibilities.
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A technomancer could soul-hack him even. Lotsa fun to be had there.
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Check my sig.
8) 'Nuff said.
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I had a guy playing a Troll who was sporting SWAT armor. Though I never had a chance to use any GM tricks on him, I'd started with adding on penalties due to the fact that he was stuck in the back of a van for like 2 hours while they drove around from Auburn to Bellevue. Said to him something along the lines of "that heavy SWAT armor coupled with the crick in your back from sitting bunched up for so long has left you feeling like you need to stretch out before you do much of anything. Take a -2 for all physical tests."
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I have Usda Tanked up to 16/14. I am the party's only physical combat character. The rest have Rifles/pistols or monofilimamnet whips! My armor is as high as I could get it without magic. I am the guy who blocks the way so my party can advance. Two full auto bursts from 2 MG took half my life & I resisted quite a bit of the shot! Stun sticks halve the armor protection as I found out. SO as someone who's going to wade into the thick of it, I need the armor to last more than one session. 8) And even less if AP ammo gets used on me.
How dod someone get over a 20 armor?
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Probably by starting with restricted gear, using the quality. Alot of that combat armor, combined with the addon armors I showed you, would easily take you really high. You could throw in helmets and shields for even more.
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Dermal sheathing or Orthoskin. And Magic. Otherwise, save up for the restricted/forbidden gear.
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Finding 10' tall full combat armor is going to be pretty hard I think. At least till 3050ish ;) ;D
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Probably not as hard as you might think. Trolls and their metavariants join the military and security forces too(Except in some places, like Japan). They are often well suited for it. (Other than being a huge target.)
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Yeah thats probably true Joker. To me it's just finding one that doesn't have the Troll inside would be the fun part. ;D
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I have Usda Tanked up to 16/14. I am the party's only physical combat character. The rest have Rifles/pistols or monofilimamnet whips! My armor is as high as I could get it without magic. I am the guy who blocks the way so my party can advance. Two full auto bursts from 2 MG took half my life & I resisted quite a bit of the shot! Stun sticks halve the armor protection as I found out. SO as someone who's going to wade into the thick of it, I need the armor to last more than one session. 8) And even less if AP ammo gets used on me.
How dod someone get over a 20 armor?
lol. No wonder you don't want more realistic combat rules. ;)
Come on Marine, did you forget the part about "To locate, close with, and destroy the enemy, by fire and manuever"? Haha.
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Not at all. I do the closing and manuvering (I took herding as one of my Manuvers!) They do the firing! ;D Till I get my paws on some heavy weapons that is!
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More like I was using him as cover and lashing with the whip from behind him/taking pot shots from between his legs. XD
I think I used you as a door a couple times too. Well... you used your head as a door knob and I followed.
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More like I was using him as cover and lashing with the whip from behind him/taking pot shots from between his legs. XD
I think I used you as a door a couple times too. Well... you used your head as a door knob knocker and I followed.
Fixed it!
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Door knockers just make noise. Door knobs open doors. You opened the door with your head. Your head is a doorknob, you stupid kender.
But anyway, the way our group's set up, if we do it right, he's the only one the baddies SEE... and he can take a few shotguns fine yeah, but sucking two SMGs at once? Noooot so much.
Not to mention you can just GM override, too. 'Cause I'm sorry. If a grenade blows up between your legs, I don't care how good your armor is YOU ARE NOT WALKING AWAY FROM THAT. Screw the dice, GM's call. Our sniper had a grenade actually DETONATE -ON- this guy and he soaked it. Nuh-uh. That guy's liquified and his friends (who were all within like... 5-10 feet) are chunky. Especially since they were "just humans."
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I'm with you, Chaotic. If you have a grenade go off six inches from your face, I don't care if you have a helmet on you are not going to live. Or at least you aren't going home before a year in the hospital, extensive reconstructive surgery, physical therapy, and enough medical bills to choke Damien Knight.
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I'm with you, Chaotic. If you have a grenade go off six inches from your face, I don't care if you have a helmet on you are not going to live. Or at least you aren't going home before a year in the hospital, extensive reconstructive surgery, physical therapy, and enough medical bills to choke Damien Knight.
You seem to be under-estimating how good some shadowrun armor is. ]
A tough Ork (body 6) Wearing Heavy Millspec+ Helm , has a HE grenade go off in his face in an open field. He has 20 dice to soak, and will averge 6-7 hits. Stun Damage. Assuming that you don't count the chunky salsa effect from the ground ( I don't)
While it will slow him down, it will not put him down, becouse he is wearing armor made from the latest nano-composites, aerogells, and diamondiod plates. That's how badass armor is in Shadowrun. The Trick is to use better grenades.
Replace the R8 Explosives in commerical Hand Grenades with R15 Explosives, and it's whole new kettle of fish. 18 damage before soak, 11P damage after. That ork in on the ground, badly chewed up.
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The concussive force of the blast could still easily result in hemorrhage and brain damage. But I get your point. And I like making better grenades.
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More like I was using him as cover and lashing with the whip from behind him/taking pot shots from between his legs. XD
I think I used you as a door a couple times too. Well... you used your head as a door knob and I followed.
Man that's gonna be one nasty critical glitch with that whip. lolz. Accident waiting to happen.
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More like I was using him as cover and lashing with the whip from behind him/taking pot shots from between his legs. XD
I think I used you as a door a couple times too. Well... you used your head as a door knob and I followed.
Man that's gonna be one nasty critical glitch with that whip. lolz. Accident waiting to happen.
Oh I know it'll be the death of me. My dice are sadistic like that enough.
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I was commenting on the fact that she is using a monofilament whip to attack things through between his legs. That bull is in grave danger of becoming a steer. Lol
But yeah those things are sketchy. Very damaging, but unreliable. It's all about play style, I guess. :)
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The concussive force of the blast could still easily result in hemorrhage and brain damage. But I get your point. And I like making better grenades.
Yep, it's the overpressure of the blast turning your insides to pulp that kills you in an explosion. Fragmentation is mostly for everyone nearby, heh.
The guys who survive grenade explosions miraculously are the ones who got lucky and the force of the blast was diverted up and away by contours in the ground, etc.
A grenade of pretty much any sort point blank should be pretty much a sure thing to anyone not wearing something pretty significant like full mil-spec. And I only don't include that because it's theoretech, so maybe it would be able to resist the concussive forces better. I can't imagine it's fun though, haha.
And yeah, I don't want anyone using a monofilament whip anywhere near me. Even if FanPro pussed out and gimped the rules for them, lol. I liked the old 1e days where all you had to do was miss, and it was "Oh for frag's sake!"
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I'm with you, Chaotic. If you have a grenade go off six inches from your face, I don't care if you have a helmet on you are not going to live. Or at least you aren't going home before a year in the hospital, extensive reconstructive surgery, physical therapy, and enough medical bills to choke Damien Knight.
You seem to be under-estimating how good some shadowrun armor is. ]
A tough Ork (body 6) Wearing Heavy Millspec+ Helm , has a HE grenade go off in his face in an open field. He has 20 dice to soak, and will averge 6-7 hits. Stun Damage. Assuming that you don't count the chunky salsa effect from the ground ( I don't)
While it will slow him down, it will not put him down, becouse he is wearing armor made from the latest nano-composites, aerogells, and diamondiod plates. That's how badass armor is in Shadowrun. The Trick is to use better grenades.
Replace the R8 Explosives in commerical Hand Grenades with R15 Explosives, and it's whole new kettle of fish. 18 damage before soak, 11P damage after. That ork in on the ground, badly chewed up.
Well it was an HE Grenade. If you ask me a frag would have been better. I don't know the type armor woren by the baddiesI've seen teh pictures of guards, and characters in the books. Grenade damage is a bit off. ;) :D
Oh as to cuncussive force... shouldn't the guards been knocked off their feet even if they didnt take dameage? Grenades are not powder puff explosives! ;D
As for teh whip thing... I am waiting to become a culinary delacasy(sp?) any day now! :o
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Lols. Delicacy.
But I digress, grenades can't be as powerful as they are in reality or they would insta-kill most things. We'd all just have dudes walking around with nothing but grenades and semi auto sniper rifles.
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Lols. Delicacy.
But I digress, grenades can't be as powerful as they are in reality or they would insta-kill most things. We'd all just have dudes walking around with nothing but grenades and semi auto sniper rifles.
Yeah, he's on our side! ;D
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Lols. Delicacy.
But I digress, grenades can't be as powerful as they are in reality or they would insta-kill most things. We'd all just have dudes walking around with nothing but grenades and semi auto sniper rifles.
Yeah, he's on our side! ;D
Hey, he has a pair of pistols, and um... yeah that is about right.
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But I digress, grenades can't be as powerful as they are in reality or they would insta-kill most things. We'd all just have dudes walking around with nothing but grenades and semi auto sniper rifles.
That's what I do.
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Lols. Delicacy.
But I digress, grenades can't be as powerful as they are in reality or they would insta-kill most things. We'd all just have dudes walking around with nothing but grenades and semi auto sniper rifles.
Yeah, he's on our side! ;D
Hey, he has a pair of pistols, and um... yeah that is about right.
What can I say? I like pistols. They're hot. Lol. I find that plenty of people go the heavily armed soldier route in Shadowrun, so I try to find different ways to amuse myself. That's not a role I'm great at playing anyways, especially since I've never personally used anything bigger than a rifle in RL. I like to stick to what I know fairly well: martial arts, melee weapons, handguns, and rifles. So far I've played a Medic and a Face. I'm working on a Sword Adept right now.
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Personal armor is an amazing thing nowadays. Have you seen the bomb squad armor? Thick and very protective, I forsee future armors providing similar protection with half the bulk. I've even seen a personal armor capable of stopping AK-47 ammunition fired point blank.
Should someone walk away from a grenade blast at point blank? With the crazy heavy milspec armor + body augs I can see them taking the hit (not undamaged, just being able to be alive). I got no issue with the vagaries of dice and random chance of the real world. If the potential for demise is there, then I'm happy, regardless of whether or not the target actually died I prefer that the chance be there.
I don't agree with GM handwaving someone into soup. The rules should support the possibility, and not rely on GM wrangling to make it happen.
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I agree. Someone with 20+ dice to resist is really, really tough. Inhumanely tough, even. So it doesn't bother me if someone like that takes a grenade and is stil able to walk (he probably won't get out without a scratch, though).
But as a GM, I know some things are pretty much insta-kill. If you're defenseless and someone points a pistol at the back of your head at point-blank range, then if he pulls the trigger, you're dead. Trapped in a building rigged to explode ? Chunky salsa (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChunkySalsaRule).
These instances are pretty rare, and as a GM, the player should :
a) not get into these situations in the first place if they can
b) know that sometimes, you don't fight (for the first exemple), if I put them in these situations
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The rules should support the possibility, and not rely on GM wrangling to make it happen.
Yes, but that requires you to consider the rules to be infallible, and well, we've seen that isn't true. For pretty much any system.
Hence why every game has a pile of house rules for every table and every community.
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True, but the solution should exist within the rules framework and not in the whims of the GM.
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If they had designed the game to be as lethal as "real life", players would not be as interested in the game since it would take one round to aim at someone and take a shot to get a clean headshot kill. The game is meant to be cinematic, hence the reason it's harder to kill someone.
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It's actually just as hard/easy to kill someone IRL as it is in SR. For evidence, I call on Jerry Curry http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/shooting-outside-courthouse/6v4d25x (http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/shooting-outside-courthouse/6v4d25x).
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If they had designed the game to be as lethal as "real life", players would not be as interested in the game since it would take one round to aim at someone and take a shot to get a clean headshot kill. The game is meant to be cinematic, hence the reason it's harder to kill someone.
I've always worked under the assumption that not every hit is a clean hit. That most are grazing hits or they pass through only meat or are ricochets or something. I figure most of the characters are moving around, ducking in and out of cover, and generally trying not to get hit. Rather than just standing there like a big, humanoid target.
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If they had designed the game to be as lethal as "real life", players would not be as interested in the game since it would take one round to aim at someone and take a shot to get a clean headshot kill. The game is meant to be cinematic, hence the reason it's harder to kill someone.
I've always worked under the assumption that not every hit is a clean hit. That most are grazing hits or they pass through only meat or are ricochets or something. I figure most of the characters are moving around, ducking in and out of cover, and generally trying not to get hit. Rather than just standing there like a big, humanoid target.
I'm sorry did someone mention me? ;D
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I'm sorry did someone mention me? Grin
If you like the abuse, then go for it, I guess. Just beware nanites.
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Even with 20 armor i do not see the problem ???
Catch him offguard with someone using called shot ignoring armor. Even -20 dices may be OK, when you use some aiming ...target unaware of atack = no defence possible ;D, so all you need is just a single hit with that assault rifle firing full-auto burst :)... and this 1 hit comes with the edge. That would slow him down or sometimes even better...Good night, armored pride...
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Or with an Edge of 4, you could just call the shot to bypass armor (even a bazillion armor) and Longshot it with Edge for 1 auto-hit. Use a good enough rifle (read: assault cannon) and they go down.
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You can also pull an old D&D favorite of mine and collapse the structure on top of them.
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You can also pull an old D&D favorite of mine and collapse the structure on top of them.
Yeah, but then at the end the hand pops up from the rubble. And then you gotta spend the whole sequel being hunted by a deformed psychopath. No thankyou. :)
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Just hope it's not one that can shamble faster than you can run. They seem to like doing that. And try not to trip.
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Also don't have relations, they seem to always get you while you're in the act. Don't separate from the group. Don't investigate a strange noise and relax when a cat runs by, something disturbed it. Don't walk backwards down a corridor. That about covers it.
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You forgot... don't take showers, don't walk down basement stairs... actually avoid the basement altogether, and stay near unimportant characters that are likely to die before you do. Establish yourself as a main character by being relatable and getting the most camera time.
I kinda wish that horror movies were shorter and more to the point. Less frills. It would be nice if every once in a while the hero just beats the murderer to death with a baseball bat... or the sheriff shoots 'em in the head instead of getting murdered right before they are going to help.
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Yeah, the protagonists actually being useful would be nice.
Then you could always hit 'em with "there's more than one."
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Rule #1: Cardio
Rule #2: Double Tap
Rule #3: Seat belts
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Rule 85
Sometimes you have to say what the Frakk.
Zombieland rules! ;D
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Would be cool to use shadowrun as an engine for a modern zombie movie campaign.
And yes, yes it does.
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Heck, just go to Asamando. ;)
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Would be cool to use shadowrun as an engine for a modern zombie movie campaign.
And yes, yes it does.
That or: Repo (The Genetic Opera)
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I was thinking of something starting out more along the lines of resident evil 2 (the game), dawn of the dead (remake), or zombieland. The only problem is that people would be really upset if their characters die, so it would probably be best to have only one or two actually players (Possibly controlling more than one character, depending on the type of story). I love the stories in those old playstation games like resident evil 2 and parasite eve. Would probably go with something similar.
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If I was going to base a ShadowRun game on horror, I'd use Silent Hill or something Lovecraft wrote. Maybe throw in a little Eraserhead and Jacob's Ladder. I would destroy everyone's sense of reality and sanity.
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I'd mix Silent Hil and Parasite Eve, creepy fog and supernatural weirdness meets superscience (iirc) mutants seems like a winning combination to me.
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What I used to do to high armored PC's in Cyberpunk was throw them against the Bozo's (who happen to use lots of weapons that incorporate acid). Nothing like watching three guys stripping off armor as they run from a bunch of gangers dressed like killer clowns from outer space. I am new to Shadowrun 4th ed. so I have no idea if acid would burn through armor but it is something to think about. Also water would be a problem. I think that it would kind of be hard to swim in ceramic plate and kevlar.
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SILENT HIIIIIIILLLLLLLL!!!!! <3 <3 <3
Totallynotafangirlofthewholeseriesnopenotabit.
Still want to go back and play Parasite Eve. I wanted to do a Call of Cthulu game based on Silent Hill, but I never got around to it.
And Jacob's Ladder is one of the main inspirations for Silent Hill, especially 3 or 4. Never seen the movie, I could tell you which of the games it was if I actually did. XD I think 4's my favorite because of Walter.
Though how Silent Hill could be made into Shadowrun I'm finding hard to see unless you could like... do it as getting trapped in a freakydeaky matrix program or something? (lol now it's .Hack//sign...)
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Jacob's Ladder is a serious mind-f.. uh, great movie. Saw it at a midnight showing when I was a freshman in college.
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Well, it inspired the silent hill games. It has to be... one of those sort of movies. My mother complained that she couldn't understand it which usually means that it was a good movie.
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Definitely good, but some of the visuals were creepy as hell (granted, it's about 20 years old, so they might not be as creepy anymore).
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they are still creepy.
I remember feeling "off" for the next couple of days after seeing JL. It messed with me... and made me think, which is why I think it is one of my all time favorites.
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I don't think I've ever seen that movie. Which is a gross oversight that I must correct. Is it kinda surreal like the Cube? (or whatever that movie with J-Lo was)
I remember my first time playing the original Silent Hill, it was 4am, I was all alone, sitting in my dark room, then all the sudden the controller started beating like a heart. I threw the controller to the floor, jumped over my recliner, and almost cried.
Edit- Very few games get much of an emotional response from me. The Silent Hill series usually does and the Metal Gear Solid games. I cried at the end of MGS 3 and cried a few time during 4.
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The Cell starring J-Lo, Vince Vaughn and (my man!) Vincent D'Onofrio.
More Guillermo del Toro, less Tarsem Singh.
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Funny thing about Jacob's Ladder was I got it, and that made the movie kinda leave me feeling "Yeah...and?"
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Or with an Edge of 4, you could just call the shot to bypass armor (even a bazillion armor) and Longshot it with Edge for 1 auto-hit
IIRC, you can't use edge on a longshot test, its allready an use of edge in itself.
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Yessss...which gives you a number of dice equal to your Edge attribute to roll. In this case four (4). Which can be used to produce a single automatic hit.
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Which can be used to produce a single automatic hit.
No, buying hits can only be used in a non tresfull situation on a test that has no negative effects from failure.
Longshot test to bypass armor doesn't qualify in anyway.
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No, buying hits can only be used in a non tresfull situation on a test that has no negative effects from failure.
Longshot test to bypass armor doesn't qualify in anyway.
Not exactly:
Gamemasters should only allow this when the character has an exceptionally large dice pool (and is unlikely to fail) or when the situation is non-threatening and nonstressful.
If someone has enough dice to almost certainly ensure a hit, then buying hits can save time and dice rolling. It is up to the GM to make the final decision on allowing buying of hits.
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Hmmm.. armor 20+
Levitate spell, hang'em over the edge of a high rise.. hehe. Can he fly?
There's also armor affecting spells that can do the numbe too. Drop a building on him... armor piercing rounds..
He's also probably going to be distinctive as all heck in that amount of armor too. And it's not like you can go walking down the street to the local stuffer shack with that armor on.
At some point he's going to be known, and when that happens, the chances of a J thinking of him as a deniable asset becomes a bit slimmer...
could also set the players up where armor is not an option. Going in armored into a facility can be a red flag.
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Levitate spells... Hmmm I seem to recall the X-Men having Jean Gray use Colossus at a bullet.
Sometimes your own allies can be your worst enemies. An overly armored tank would look a lot like a battering ram to some magic using types. Coyote Shaman anyone?
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If someone has enough dice to almost certainly ensure a hit, then buying hits can save time and dice rolling. It is up to the GM to make the final decision on allowing buying of hits.
Yes and 4 dice isn't exactly an exceptionally large dice pool, nor is a longshot test to avoid armor a non-threatening and nonstressful situation.
So my point stands.
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Except when the firer in question is a sniper shooting from several hundred meters away with complete and total surprise. Where, exactly, is the stress or threat in the situation that we have been discussing for the last couple of pages?
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I think the problem with the armor v damage is when I score a hit it should do damage. Even if it's only one point. Once the opposed test is won by the attacker then the defender should take some damage. IE the defender was hit. the damage resistance test should by no means reduce the successful hit to '0'.
It kinda takes away the need to roll to hit. After all if you are grazed by a bullet you are HIT. If a bullet bounces off your Armor you are not. Damage resistance should never overrule a successful hit. After all '0' damage isn't hit now is it? ::)
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You shoot a bullet at Superman. You hit, but he took no damage.
If the target's armor/dodge/etc. is high enough to reduce all the damage to zero, it just means they were able to avoid damage from the hit, not avoid the hit. Think of it this way, you were shooting at the target's head. You got a decent roll and the bullet traveled towards the target's head. But they are able to twist and move in reaction to your shot that instead of getting hit somewhere vulnerable, they get hit in the most protected part of their armor. And instead of a straight on shot to the armor (resulting in the stun damage), they are able to position it so that it's a glancing blow to the armor (0 damage).
Is it realistic? No. But then again, as I keep reminding people, this is a cinematic game set in a world of elves and dragons.
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Superman can't be a runner either. Waaaaaaaaaay not enough BP for Supes to be one!Your examples are of "Not hitting"
If the target's armor/dodge/etc. is high enough to reduce all the damage to zero
No damage no hit.
Think of it this way, you were shooting at the target's head. You got a decent roll and the bullet traveled towards the target's head. But they are able to twist and move in reaction to your shot that instead of getting hit somewhere vulnerable, they get hit in the most protected part of their armor
Then I haven't hit my target.
A hit means I got past the armor and have done damage. That is a hit, anything else is a miss. I understand your argument but I disagree with the idea that there are two chances for players and NPCs to avoid damage. Remember I have played in games with elves, dragons (& giant fighting robots) for 30 years, in all that time when I hit my target, they take damage.
If I hit someone with a baseball bat and they are wearing a football helmet, they are probably going to survive. Are they going to be hurt? Damn skippy. That's that one (or more) point of damage.
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You're not thinking in "touch attack" terms. A hit means you've tagged your target. Even if you do no damage, you've scored a hit (and sometimes that can do more stuff--i.e. acid damage, nanite delivery, drug injection).
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You're not thinking in "touch attack" terms. A hit means you've tagged your target. Even if you do no damage, you've scored a hit (and sometimes that can do more stuff--i.e. acid damage, nanite delivery, drug injection).
No cause a touch attack just needs to make contact with the body. Acid just has to get on you and you will probably burn. has to soak through.
Whats the point of rolling to hit when my hit can be reduced to '0'. Drop it to stun or divide it by 4 and make it stun damage but dang it When your hit your hit for something! Otherwise its a miss.
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You're 'hit' isn't being reduced to zero. The damage it inflicts is. You still hit them, but because they are armored like a tank, they don't feel it. Just like if your adjusted DV doesn't exceed the target's Armor Value, the damage is Stun, not Physical. It's not saying you miss the target, but just that there wasn't enough power behind the attack to affect the target.
Edit: Think of it this way. In real life, if you shoot a guy with a gun, you hit right? But if you throw a spitball at the same guy and tack him right on the forehead, did you miss? You hit in both cases, right? But one puts him down for the count, while the other pisses him off...
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Also a "Hit" means you've hit the space that the target occupied. If the target is in motion, then the space may no longer be occupied by the player by the time your hit connected.
Then again, as FJ said, it's an abstraction. If you try and think to hard about it, it will hurt your brain.
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A hit means I got past the armor and have done damage. That is a hit, anything else is a miss.
So your saying that if you hit Robo Cop with a baseball bat, the fact that he doesn't actually take damage from that means you missed.
Hit means that your attack connected with them, it doing damage is wholly dependant of what you hit them with and how good theyr armoring is and has nothing to do with your attack hitting or missing.
Burst of gell rounds is very likely to hit a tank(that cant really dodge) but its not conna do any damage as vehicles get to ingnore stun damage.
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You're 'hit' isn't being reduced to zero. The damage it inflicts is. You still hit them, but because they are armored like a tank, they don't feel it. Just like if your adjusted DV doesn't exceed the target's Armor Value, the damage is Stun, not Physical. It's not saying you miss the target, but just that there wasn't enough power behind the attack to affect the target.
Edit: Think of it this way. In real life, if you shoot a guy with a gun, you hit right? But if you throw a spitball at the same guy and tack him right on the forehead, did you miss? You hit in both cases, right? But one puts him down for the count, while the other pisses him off...
Spit balls aren't a weapon persey.and yes it can hurt depending on the velocity of the person blowing it. Not to mention ball rounds aren't spitballs. If you take no damage you havent been hit, your armor was. It doesn't take alot of armor to make it need an auto cannon to do damage.
Oh well the system is what it is! ::)
FYI everyone. I am not angry nor am I trying to be smug. I have a bunch of respect for all of you... well maybe not The Doomed One (JK) :-* Anyway, don't put any anger or smugness in your voice when reading my posts. My family argues/debates/fights on a regular basis. I am discussing my views without any desire to insult or ridicule. K thx! ;D
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If you take no damage you havent been hit, your armor was.
Now that's just arguing semantics... ;D
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If you take no damage you havent been hit, your armor was.
Now that's just arguing semantics... ;D
Don't they publish Fonts and other computer software? ;D
Hey if you're in a houe and I roll successful hits against you but the house/your armor absorbs the damage did I hit you? ;D :D ;)
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That's not a good metaphor.
If the clothes you are wearing are on fire are you on fire?
If the house you are in is on fire are you on fire?
Being in a house and being in armor are not the same thing.
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If you shoot through the wall and it impacts me, yes you hit. I don't expect to take as much damage from the shot compared to if you hit me without an intervening wall, though.
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Really?
If the house is on fire and youe escacpe then no your not on fire, otherwise you will be.
If my clothes are on fire & I remove them/snuff them before I get burn then no the clothing was on fire I wasn't.
If the armor absorbs the damage or the house does where's the difference?
If you shoot through the wall and it impacts me, yes you hit. I don't expect to take as much damage from the shot compared to if you hit me without an intervening wall, though.
Depends on how bad the wall fragments. I know of bullets missing and a large sliveror wall section killing the person. ;)
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In the case of the wall fragments, then you missed, but he died of "extenuating circumstances". ;D
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I think Usda's issue is coming from along experience with games where armor makes you harder to hit, as opposed to SR where armor makes you harder to damage.
A hit in Shadowrun just means you've connected with your target. Nothing more, nothing less. If you hit well (have lots of net hits left over) you greatly increase your chances of making it a damaging strike -- but because there are dice involved, it's no guarantee. Sometimes in real life, a guy takes a solid punch and just keeps coming. Should Mike Tyson or Brock Lesnar always be taking a box of damage, when a little old lady hits them with her purse?
If your gaming group wants to house rule it so anytime you're hit with lethal damage, you take at least one box? Knock yourself out. I could see it adding some realism to the game, so that even the hardiest Troll in the heaviest armor can still get "nickled and dimed" a little bit. I think the game's lethal enough as it is, for the most part, so I wouldn't want that sort of house rule in my game...but as I recall, your group's got at least one fairly min/maxed soak machine, so maybe you're having a different experience with it than some groups.
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Really?
If the house is on fire and youe escacpe then no your not on fire, otherwise you will be.
If my clothes are on fire & I remove them/snuff them before I get burn then no the clothing was on fire I wasn't.
If the armor absorbs the damage or the house does where's the difference?
If you shoot through the wall and it impacts me, yes you hit. I don't expect to take as much damage from the shot compared to if you hit me without an intervening wall, though.
Depends on how bad the wall fragments. I know of bullets missing and a large sliveror wall section killing the person. ;)
The fact of the matter is that in the English language... if something you are wearing is on fire... you are on fire.
If you are wearing a bullet proof vest and someone shoots you in it... you got shot.
If you are wearing a helmet and someone punches you in the head you still got punched in the head.
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Nicely put Crit. But what constitutes as hitting then? That little old lady's purse cuts Lesner's/Tyson's face has he taken more damage than if the purse bruises them? As for house ruling, I was thinking that if you get shot/hit/Blown up but your armor absorbs it, guess what your body does too! Get shot wearing body armor, the armor keeps the damage from being leathal but the wearer still gets battered and bruised. The concussion of a grenade can kill/harm the crew of a tank even though the tank is unbreached.
So Give the runner 1 point of stun damage to represent the impact that almost caused mortal damage. That to me is a good rule of thumb. Please note I am suggesting this and I am our groups Bullet catcher! To me that adds some realism to getting shot!
If you are wearing a bullet proof vest and someone shoots you in it... you got shot.
I you are wearing a helmet and someone punches you in the head you still got punched in the head.
You also get bruised and possibly broken bones or a concussion.
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You can go ahead and house rule the Stun rule for 1 point every time you get hit. Remember then, that when the bad guys unload everything on Usda and he gets knocked out in two rounds (and is too heavy for everyone to carry), it was your idea. ;D
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Part of the drawback of being as big as he is! ;) Hopefully my party is firing back while I'm distracting the enemy! ;)
He actually failed to climb a ladder cause it broke because of his weight! ::)
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Nicely put Crit. But what constitutes as hitting then? That little old lady's purse cuts Lesner's/Tyson's face has he taken more damage than if the purse bruises them? As for house ruling, I was thinking that if you get shot/hit/Blown up but your armor absorbs it, guess what your body does too! Get shot wearing body armor, the armor keeps the damage from being leathal but the wearer still gets battered and bruised. The concussion of a grenade can kill/harm the crew of a tank even though the tank is unbreached.
So Give the runner 1 point of stun damage to represent the impact that almost caused mortal damage. That to me is a good rule of thumb. Please note I am suggesting this and I am our groups Bullet catcher! To me that adds some realism to getting shot!
If you are wearing a bullet proof vest and someone shoots you in it... you got shot.
I you are wearing a helmet and someone punches you in the head you still got punched in the head.
You also get bruised and possibly broken bones or a concussion.
No offense, but I think you are missing the point I'm making. I guess it doesn't matter, but I think you are getting too wrapped up in the hypothetical situation, while not paying attention to the wording.
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Actually I don't think I am. I have used budy armor, WHen you get shot the impact can & sometimes does crack ribs and bruises soft tissue quite readily. Punched in the head... There's damage your neck takes and concussions are cause by blows to teh head. Now which got hit the armor or the body? The answer is both. The armor just reduced the damage to something less leathal but the person wearing the armor was harmed.
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If you take no damage you havent been hit,
Are you trying to say with a straight face that when some one hits me in the middle of my forehead with a paper ball, but i obviliously didn't take damage from that,so actually the paper ball missed me while it very clearly just hit me in the head.
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Actually I don't think I am. I have used budy armor, WHen you get shot the impact can & sometimes does crack ribs and bruises soft tissue quite readily. Punched in the head... There's damage your neck takes and concussions are cause by blows to teh head. Now which got hit the armor or the body? The answer is both. The armor just reduced the damage to something less leathal but the person wearing the armor was harmed.
Let's say that you get punched in the helmet and it doesn't hurt you? You still got punched in the head.
I roll my attack with a gun. Let's say I hit.
I roll damage. Not enough to get past your armor.
I still hit you.
Now are you saying that you should take damage no matter what if you get hit? If that's not what you're saying, then what exactly are you saying?
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Usda, I think I see where the break down is.
When you were in body armor and got hit, you felt it, right? Now, you still felt the hit afterward. That's because the DV of the weapon was NOT higher than your Armor's Ballistic value, so the damage was transferred to Stun Damage instead of Physical. You're body didn't soak all the damage (you probably had one tough SOB in the unit that didn't flinch when hit), so you took some Stun damage.
Now, if they shot at you with a higher-powered rifle, there's a chance it could have gotten through your armor and caused physical damage instead of Stun. Heck, even if the bullet was stopped by the armor, you could have still taken Physical Damage since the weapon was high-powered enough that the armor couldn't soak all the damage and you got some nasty bruises (maybe even cracked ribs) from the shot.
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Actually I don't think I am. I have used budy armor, WHen you get shot the impact can & sometimes does crack ribs and bruises soft tissue quite readily. Punched in the head... There's damage your neck takes and concussions are cause by blows to teh head. Now which got hit the armor or the body? The answer is both. The armor just reduced the damage to something less leathal but the person wearing the armor was harmed.
I've also seen video of people getting shot while in some very heavy armor by an AK-47 at point blank range and not suffering any injuries from the impact. Not even bruises. That armor was, of course, not typical soldier's or police body armor, but something super heavy (for bomb squad, perhaps) that was many inches thick and cumbersome.
A "hit," in this case, is making contact and potentially causing damage from the attack. Note the word "potentially." With heavy enough armor, the strike may not do damage. The target still got hit, they just didn't take a telling or damaging hit.
While you might object to the use of the word "hit" in this case, this really is personal preference and playing with semantics after this point. The ruleset states that this is a "hit" and damage might be caused.
EDIT: FJ posted a better example than I did.
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Nicely put Crit. But what constitutes as hitting then?
What constitutes as hitting? Succeeding on an attack roll. You've HIT a baseball whether you clip it out into foul territory, smack it out of the park, or let out a weenie little bunt. I've HIT you whether I've given you an open-palmed smack like on NCIS, a punch to the nose, or a flick with my fingertip. I've HIT that Knight Errant squad car with my gun whether it was a shot to a tire, a shot to the engine block, or just a shot that takes off a rearview mirror.
I've DAMAGED only in a few of those instances above, but hit in every single one of them. Describing the difference between a hit and a damaging hit is part of the GM's job, especially in a game as full of abstractions and over-the-top cinematic ability as Shadowrun is.
HIT and DAMAGE are two entirely separate things, and you keep acting like they're not, and I think that's the basic disconnect, here.
That little old lady's purse cuts Lesner's/Tyson's face has he taken more damage than if the purse bruises them?
Yeah, probably. But they got HIT in either instance, didn't they? That's the difference between the little old lady's purse just thumping into a barrel-chested professional fighter, and the lady swinging wildly and not even connecting.
As for house ruling, I was thinking that if you get shot/hit/Blown up but your armor absorbs it, guess what your body does too! Get shot wearing body armor, the armor keeps the damage from being leathal but the wearer still gets battered and bruised. The concussion of a grenade can kill/harm the crew of a tank even though the tank is unbreached.
Which is already partially what armor does, whenever the Ballistic/Impact rating is more powerful than the incoming attack (when folks take stun instead of lethal)...so it's already, at least partially, been represented in the rules.
So Give the runner 1 point of stun damage to represent the impact that almost caused mortal damage. That to me is a good rule of thumb. Please note I am suggesting this and I am our groups Bullet catcher! To me that adds some realism to getting shot!
Sure, if that's what you and your game table wants to try. But how much do you increase the cost/essence value of a Trauma Damper, now? Because in a game with a rule like that, it's become THE piece of combat gear.
And get ready to be nickle-and-dimed to unconsciousness by every incoming attack. The most ineffective, limp-wristed, open handed, untrained, wussy, smack on the chest (like in the classic "I hate you, I hate you, SOB SOB SOB" scene in an action flick) is going to start doing damage, regardless of the crying lady having Strength 1 and no Unarmed Combat dice, and of her slapping on a massive Troll's chest, who's wearing Form Fit, Security Armor, and has a buddy sustaining a massive Armor spell on him -- becuase, hey, that lady has "hit" him, right?
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And if you have to house rule/GM fiat your own house rule to prevent this ridiculousness, just how good was the original house rule?
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Actually I don't think I am. I have used budy armor, WHen you get shot the impact can & sometimes does crack ribs and bruises soft tissue quite readily. Punched in the head... There's damage your neck takes and concussions are cause by blows to teh head. Now which got hit the armor or the body? The answer is both. The armor just reduced the damage to something less lethal but the person wearing the armor was harmed.
Let's say that you get punched in the helmet and it doesn't hurt you? You still got punched in the head.
I roll my attack with a gun. Let's say I hit.
I roll damage. Not enough to get past your armor.
I still hit you.
Now are you saying that you should take damage no matter what if you get hit? If that's not what you're saying, then what exactly are you saying?
That is exactly it. For gaming purposes, if you ain't hurt you ain't hit. It bounces off your armor, you dodge it, the gods intervine and put a house fly in the way of the attack, whatever. Hit=Injured=Damage everything else is a miss because you didn't get hurt.
TV Cop show dialogue
Cop gets shot in the shoulder (HIT)
Line: "I'm Hit"
Cop gets shot in the BP vest(MISS)
Line:"I'm ok"
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And if you have to house rule/GM fiat your own house rule to prevent this ridiculousness, just how good was the original house rule?
The original house rule(CatLabs... What they made upo the rules they were house rule to them ;) )Had allowed three guards to survivve 2 direct point blank hits from HE grenades with only a scratch and still were standing.
Critias examples:
I've HIT you whether I've given you an open-palmed smack like on NCIS; Yes and that stings 1 stun maybe
a punch to the nose(From a child) Bloody nose 1 stun
a punch to the nose(From A cage fighter) Broken nose 2 stun
or a flick with my fingertip Not enough force to register a hit in gaming terms
or a flick with Usda's fingertipIf he hits right you could end up dead if he flicks your larnex(sp?)
And with the exception of the finger flick each of those examples cause some damage and even the finger flick could make you say ouch!
And get ready to be nickle-and-dimed to unconsciousness by every incoming attack. The most ineffective, limp-wristed, open handed, untrained, wussy, smack on the chest (like in the classic "I hate you, I hate you, SOB SOB SOB" scene in an action flick) is going to start doing damage, regardless of the crying lady having Strength 1 and no Unarmed Combat dice, and of her slapping on a massive Troll's chest, who's wearing Form Fit, Security Armor, and has a buddy sustaining a massive Armor spell on him -- becuase, hey, that lady has "hit" him, right?
Tht's where discression comes in.Getting slapped isn't quite the same as the kinetic energy of a .357 shooting you in the armor. Not to mention if my Ex wife slapped you, you'd see stars (1 stun) :o
I've also seen video of people getting shot while in some very heavy armor by an AK-47 at point blank range and not suffering any injuries from the impact
That's military grade assault armor. I can understand that having different rules ;)
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That is exactly it. For gaming purposes, if you ain't hurt you ain't hit.
And here lies your problem, your confusing 2 entirly different thinks.
In real life as well as shadowrun, hitting someone and doing damage to someone are 2 completdly different thinks that have almost nothing to do with each other.
It's not really the game systems problem if you cant understand what the term hit means. :P
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That is exactly it. For gaming purposes, if you ain't hurt you ain't hit.
And here lies your problem, your confusing 2 entirly different thinks.
In real life as well as shadowrun, hitting someone and doing damage to someone are 2 completdly different thinks that have almost nothing to do with each other.
It's not really the game systems problem if you cant understand what the term hit means. :P
I guess the difference is when I hit someone they're getting hurt :P
I understand the simantics we are arguing gang. I just don't accept the given definition of hit in Shadowrun. My definition involves long years of experiencing what getting hit is. I was holding the boards for a blue belt who performed a spectacular breaking demo. With a straight punch the guy broke the third board... only. The crowd awwwed The black belt next to me was as shocked as I was. the energy of the punch bypassed the first 2 boards and hit the third. The punch "hit" ONLY the third board! SO had he punched me in the chest the force would have hit my heart and other soft tissues. That is the concussive force that the game mechanics can't handle and I know happens! That's why I just can't accept the whole hit but not damaged concept.
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Incorrect. He hit all THREE boards, but the first two were able to pass the energy through them instead of resisting the energy. This resulted in them being unbroken and the third being broken.
In your definition, hit means damaged. Unfortunately, it's all semantics since most gamers don't equate the two that way.
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Incorrect. He hit all THREE boards, but the first two were able to pass the energy through them instead of resisting the energy. This resulted in them being unbroken and the third being broken.
In your definition, hit means damaged. Unfortunately, it's all semantics since most gamers don't equate the two that way.
Over thirty years of;
"Roll to hit."
"Whats your AC? I hit."
"You take T points damage"
Then theres over 21 years of:
"I'm shooting you."
"Ok, long range, I ran, you moved X hexes, I'm a X gunner, I need a Y to hit"
"Got it you take Z Damage from my pulse laser."
"Man I have B points of armor left there!"
I mean what the heck they use armor to absorb damage in CBT and once the armor is shot through then the tender viddles get hurts. It's clean simple and theres no I hit you but there's no damage. In D&D you factor in your armor & dex and all mods into the to hit roll. Both formula make sense they are logical. It's what I have done for my 31 years of gaming experience.
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Unless, of course, you're using Damage Reduction in D&D.
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Unless, of course, you're using Damage Reduction in D&D.
Up to 3rd edition and I never heard of it, How's it work and there was a rule in D&D that no hit could be reduced below 1 damage. Also was it a general D&D rule or was it a setting specific, cause I didn't play many of the "worlds" of D&D.
Aww I got another slap for holding my convictions. :P ;D ;)
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DR in D&D subtracts a specific number from the damage done, eliminating that damage from affecting the player. And this DR can reduce damage to zero.
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DR in D&D subtracts a specific number from the damage done, eliminating that damage from affecting the player. And this DR can reduce damage to zero.
Wait are you talking about the tables in ...1st & 2nd ed? where AC 8 would have -2 bonus v say a Copesh?
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Damage reduction?
It reduces damage.
I've been playing since the days of THACO, but I'm not a fan of D&D's defense system. It doesn't make sense to me and parts of it seem like a disorganized afterthought. It mocks real combat more than reflecting it. D&D has traditional MMO style combat.
Remember before fourth edition?
I swing at you. Miss. You swing at me. Miss. I swing at you. Hit. You take 5 damage. Your turn. Bor-ring.
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DR in D&D subtracts a specific number from the damage done, eliminating that damage from affecting the player. And this DR can reduce damage to zero.
Wait are you talking about the tables in ...1st & 2nd ed? where AC 8 would have -2 bonus v say a Copesh?
No. 3rd and 4th edition only as far as I know.
I think they called it immunity and stuff like that before 3rd.
Example
DR: 5/+1
That means that you reduce damage dealt by five unless you are using a plus one whatever.
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DR in D&D subtracts a specific number from the damage done, eliminating that damage from affecting the player. And this DR can reduce damage to zero.
Wait are you talking about the tables in ...1st & 2nd ed? where AC 8 would have -2 bonus v say a Copesh?
No. 3rd and 4th edition only as far as I know.
I think they called it immunity and stuff like that before 3rd.
Example
DR: 5/+1
That means that you reduce damage dealt by five unless you are using a plus one whatever.
Damage reduction due to specific cercumstance, Yeah, And those were usually for specific MAGICAL creatures Werewolves, Vampires & other undead, It was special case damage and it was also a set amount of damage reduction, as the example indicates.
Remember before fourth edition?
I swing at you. Miss. You swing at me. Miss. I swing at you. Hit. You take 5 damage. Your turn. Bor-ring.
Yeah, I liked those editions, before fighters could heal themselves in combat without a potion! It wasn't boring if you had 7 HP! ;D
Yeah kinda boring like:
I shoot you, I got 6 hits
I got 4 defending
Ok so thats 6 damage from my pistol.
Ok I soak 8 damage.
Damn. Again!
Rinse and repeat!Walk away frustrated!
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You know I got to go here
:-[
We've been doing our hit/damage resolution incorrectly (Yeah...Noobs). So I will wait till we play tomorrow and see if things change, But I still have a feeling I'll still have some grumbles about this 8)
(We still need more emoticons :'(
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Realism.
Shoot high quality body armor with an average pistol and alot of times you aren't gonna do any damage to the person wearing it.
Seems like you might be accustomed to instant gratification rolls. As in "I made this roll, so I do you a bunch of damage."
That's the way most games work, which is actually one of the reasons I like shadowrun over other games. It makes an attempt at more realistic mechanics.
Shadowrun 4 is not a game of simplicity. It doesn't take real factors and warp them into a game engine. It builds the engine based around those factors. I love complicated fantasy-realistic games since I usually put alot of thought into roleplay.
And no, Usda... There is damage reduction without conditions too.
Damage Reduction: 10
Edit: What? Have you not been rolling for damage and armor?
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Damage reduction due to specific cercumstance, Yeah, And those were usually for specific MAGICAL creatures Werewolves, Vampires & other undead, It was special case damage and it was also a set amount of damage reduction, as the example indicates.
Barbarians received DR without any specific circumstance and Adamantine Armor grants the same (usually represented by 5/-). This meant that you'd subtract the amount from any type of damage, including magical.
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Yeah like I've said over 30 years of I hit and either do 1d6 + str or for 21 years I hit with my gauss and you take 15 damage to your left torso! Trust me I know that Shadowrun ain't simple!
I beive that that comes with a condition that the target is on the devine side or just super tough/big.
I haven't been in a D&D book for about 4 years so I'm rusty on what creatures have DR like that. ;)
I still say they miss the mark on realism, but SR does get closer to it. ;) not to mention if I wanted MORE realism in my fantasy gaming I'd join the SCA! :D :D :D
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Damage reduction due to specific cercumstance, Yeah, And those were usually for specific MAGICAL creatures Werewolves, Vampires & other undead, It was special case damage and it was also a set amount of damage reduction, as the example indicates.
Barbarians received DR without any specific circumstance and Adamantine Armor grants the same (usually represented by 5/-). This meant that you'd subtract the amount from any type of damage, including magical.
With level advancement Fast. IIRC at lvl 10 a Barb gets his first DR/5. And Adamantine is the hardest substance in the game and the hardest to obtain (+5 weapons & Armor). It's also a fairly low amount of damage. Most characters I ran could damage Ceatures with DR.
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Yeah like I've said over 30 years of I hit and either do 1d6 + str or for 21 years I hit with my gauss and you take 15 damage to your left torso! Trust me I know that Shadowrun ain't simple!
I beive that that comes with a condition that the target is on the devine side or just super tough/big.
I haven't been in a D&D book for about 4 years so I'm rusty on what creatures have DR like that. ;)
I still say they miss the mark on realism, but SR does get closer to it. ;) not to mention if I wanted MORE realism in my fantasy gaming I'd join the SCA! :D :D :D
Examples of hitting but not doing damage in Battletech: NARC beacons and Indirect Spotting. ;D
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Damage reduction due to specific cercumstance, Yeah, And those were usually for specific MAGICAL creatures Werewolves, Vampires & other undead, It was special case damage and it was also a set amount of damage reduction, as the example indicates.
Barbarians received DR without any specific circumstance and Adamantine Armor grants the same (usually represented by 5/-). This meant that you'd subtract the amount from any type of damage, including magical.
With level advancement Fast. IIRC at lvl 10 a Barb gets his first DR/5. And Adamantine is the hardest substance in the game and the hardest to obtain (+5 weapons & Armor). It's also a fairly low amount of damage. Most characters I ran could damage Ceatures with DR.
Yeah, but there's those nice creatures with DR 15/Mithril. Granted, they were epic-level (for characters of level 20+), but still...
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Yeah like I've said over 30 years of I hit and either do 1d6 + str or for 21 years I hit with my gauss and you take 15 damage to your left torso! Trust me I know that Shadowrun ain't simple!
I beive that that comes with a condition that the target is on the devine side or just super tough/big.
I haven't been in a D&D book for about 4 years so I'm rusty on what creatures have DR like that. ;)
I still say they miss the mark on realism, but SR does get closer to it. ;) not to mention if I wanted MORE realism in my fantasy gaming I'd join the SCA! :D :D :D
Examples of hitting but not doing damage in Battletech: NARC beacons and Indirect Spotting. ;D
Nope. NARC does have a Damage round but the bNARC is a "touch" attack per se and Indirect spotting (TAG?) Is again a touch attack waiting for the big boom stick to drop! ;)
DR 15 at epic level is nothing FAst. I had characters that had +15 damage bonus due to str! They are also the creatures I let the Mages blast first! :o :P
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Yeah like I've said over 30 years of I hit and either do 1d6 + str or for 21 years I hit with my gauss and you take 15 damage to your left torso! Trust me I know that Shadowrun ain't simple!
I beive that that comes with a condition that the target is on the devine side or just super tough/big.
I haven't been in a D&D book for about 4 years so I'm rusty on what creatures have DR like that. ;)
I still say they miss the mark on realism, but SR does get closer to it. ;) not to mention if I wanted MORE realism in my fantasy gaming I'd join the SCA! :D :D :D
Examples of hitting but not doing damage in Battletech: NARC beacons and Indirect Spotting. ;D
Nope. NARC does have a Damage round but the bNARC is a "touch" attack per se and Indirect spotting (TAG?) Is again a touch attack waiting for the big boom stick to drop! ;)
DR 15 at epic level is nothing FAst. I had characters that had +15 damage bonus due to str! They are also the creatures I let the Mages blast first! :o :P
Right after I posted that, I remembered NARC did like 1 point of damage or something. Of course, then I got a connection error so I couldn't edit it... ;)
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The SCA isn't fantasy. It's history. But I take your meaning. :D
You should join the SCA. It's alot of fun. We are more historically accurate than Ren Faires and have some rules you have to know, but it's alot of fun.
God, I want armor sooo bad. Heavy combat heavy combat heavy combat!!! I've been recovering from knee injury, but I'm starting to feel like I can practice and maybe fight again. Was throwing some pretty kicks yesterday, so I think my knee is strong enough. I injured it in a swordfight ironically.
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I would but my body just isn't up to that kind of play anymore. ;D
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I would but my body just isn't up to that kind of play anymore. ;D
That's just the fighting part. There's way way more to the SCA than fighting.
I've never fought in the SCA. I just want to. I fight in other organizations.
Anyways, armor! So, I'm wondering, does pretty much everybody here use Form Fitting Armor? It seems too broken to pass up.
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I use form fitting for most of my characters. There's some I can't justify it on so I don't.
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I gave it to Usda, but when Doom limited the damage defence dice pool to 20 I cut that and the PPP. Now I'm just 21 for that. However after discussing the mechanics he MIGHT let me build it back up. We'll see how it works out tomorrow. ;D
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Same as Angel. Sure, it can be justified for everyone, but Hackers/Faces/Mages just may not *think* of it (unless a Sammy/Phys Adept points it out to them).
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My poor, squishy Chaos Mage would LOVE to have some, if he could only afford it at this juncture. It will be on the menu...along with the tons of other stuff that is also on the wait list for purchasing. Foci, binding materials, additional spell formulae, higher-than-Low lifestyle...you know, the basics. :-\
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I would but my body just isn't up to that kind of play anymore. ;D
That's just the fighting part. There's way way more to the SCA than fighting.
Like drinking, and drinking, and did I mention drinking? 8)
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I would but my body just isn't up to that kind of play anymore. ;D
That's just the fighting part. There's way way more to the SCA than fighting.
Like drinking, and drinking, and did I mention drinking? 8)
So is there any drinking at the SCA? I'm an amature drinker with delusions of going pro! :o :P
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I gave it to Usda, but when Doom limited the damage defence dice pool to 20 I cut that and the PPP. Now I'm just 21 for that. However after discussing the mechanics he MIGHT let me build it back up. We'll see how it works out tomorrow. ;D
What would be that "DOOM" you are talking about?
In my group, one of players is a troll with cyberarms and torso with + armor (lets say +5), Body of 11 and heavy milspec. it would be some 35 defence pool without edge (which, fortunately, he got only 1 because his character doesnt believe in luck and magic (+4 magic resistence)
So this is some news I didnt hear about... what rulebook pls?
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Doom = The Doomed One = our current GM. He pops up on the forum here once in a blue moon.
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Sun Tzu said something like "attack where you are strong and your enemy is weak". Mega-armor Man's strength is clearly in resisting physical damage. So trying to overpower that is probably a lost cause for your average security team. Trying to shoot him is like trying to argue with a Fixer or brute-force crash an AI (assuming they're both as efficient as armor guy). So OK, Mr. Troll is invulnerable to anything shy of high explosives or a Knight Errant team with miniguns and a Panther Canon. Don't try to shoot him!
Mr. Armor Man has to lug all that armor around and carry a gun, too. So his physical stats are probably pretty high. How's his Willpower? Any number of things target Willpower.
Don't have a combat mage and/or Adept with Commanding Voice? Knock him over. He's already encumbered. Put Mr. Armor on the ground and fire sticky stuff at him. Now the party can stay and free him or try to go on without him. Especially evil party members may just run away.
Don't have sticky stuff? How's his hand to hand combat? Aim for his gun then send in the Aikido master. All that armor is going to slow him down and the next thing you know, arm lock.
I especially like the last one because it has a real "cue dramatic music" feel to it. Arnold Schwarzenegger vs Steven Segal sort of thing. Any of the above work well if Knight Errant can come by for pickup. Once E-SWAT shows up, even Mr. Armor is going to lose. Since you probably don't want to hose Mr. Armor, just get some good dramatic tension out of it, the rest of the party can probably free him before KE shows up. The point is that the baddies may not be prepared but they're also not stupid. A smart security force will do better than a well equipped security force.
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Shoot him with the microwave gun. The one that ignores armor completely.
That pretty much makes "mega armor man" look like a big tool.
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Or you could hit him with a bus. Shoot at his squishy friends so they have to fall back or die. Armorman will have to fall back with them or get swarmed under.
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Or you could hit him with a bus. Shoot at his squishy friends so they have to fall back or die. Armorman will have to fall back with them or get swarmed under.
Ain't riggers grand. I ran over a PC two weeks ago with a grid guided Metro Car.
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I totally agree, a hacked bus or even the teams van is basically an "I win" button against well anything. It's SOP for my group that if the pew pew doesn't work hit it with a bus/truck/zamboni.
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I totally agree, a hacked bus or even the teams van is basically an "I win" button against well anything. It's SOP for my group that if the pew pew doesn't work hit it with a bus/truck/zamboni.
Zamboni???? That is awesome!!! I dropped a cryogencially frozen fat woman on a group of PCs once. Don't ask. It is a terrible, terrible, story ;D
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Shoot him with the microwave gun. The one that ignores armor completely.
That pretty much makes "mega armor man" look like a big tool.
I was thinking Hot Dog... but your assessment is also accurate ;)
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I totally agree, a hacked bus or even the teams van is basically an "I win" button against well anything. It's SOP for my group that if the pew pew doesn't work hit it with a bus/truck/zamboni.
Zamboni???? That is awesome!!! I dropped a cryogencially frozen fat woman on a group of PCs once. Don't ask. It is a terrible, terrible, story ;D
I'm sorry, but I *have* to cheer you for that one.
(As an aside, I'm happy that there's a stat for using a body in HTH combat now. "Sample Improvised Weapons: Metahuman Body (Unarmed Combat)." I ran some SR2nd where I had to flash-handle a troll sammy using a deceased elf sec man as a club. I like to think that the dissemination of that story had something to do with it showing up in rules somewhere. ;D )
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(As an aside, I'm happy that there's a stat for using a body in HTH combat now. "Sample Improvised Weapons: Metahuman Body (Unarmed Combat)." I ran some SR2nd where I had to flash-handle a troll sammy using a deceased elf sec man as a club. I like to think that the dissemination of that story had something to do with it showing up in rules somewhere. ;D )
I recall a similar story (from 2nd ed also) where I had to handle that oddity on the spot as well. Only the troll was using the dwarf as a thrown weapon.
Interestingly, it worked so well that the troll later specialized in Thrown Weapons (Dwarves)
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(As an aside, I'm happy that there's a stat for using a body in HTH combat now. "Sample Improvised Weapons: Metahuman Body (Unarmed Combat)." I ran some SR2nd where I had to flash-handle a troll sammy using a deceased elf sec man as a club. I like to think that the dissemination of that story had something to do with it showing up in rules somewhere. ;D )
I recall a similar story (from 2nd ed also) where I had to handle that oddity on the spot as well. Only the troll was using the dwarf as a thrown weapon.
Interestingly, it worked so well that the troll later specialized in Thrown Weapons (Dwarves)
Dude...Dwarf tossing rules!
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Don't tell the Elf.
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If someone has enough dice to almost certainly ensure a hit, then buying hits can save time and dice rolling. It is up to the GM to make the final decision on allowing buying of hits.
Yes and 4 dice isn't exactly an exceptionally large dice pool, nor is a longshot test to avoid armor a non-threatening and nonstressful situation.
So my point stands.
No.
Its up to GM.
Its his point that stands. For my players, it is automatic rule. 4 dices = 1 hit and so on. Thats all.
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I'm GM for a group of runners with several tank characters. High cyberware and high armor. I have a few tricks I pull out to make them sweat.
1: Magic: control actions or a spirit or two. An astral quest maybe?
2: Someone who is packing bigger guns/armor. there is always a bigger fish. Corporate, police, military, a dragon, another runner group etc....
3: Put them in a situation where they cannot have lots of armor/guns. On a boat, in high security areas, a nightclub, in another country, anywhere where they cannot be allowed to bring the heavy gear or they cannot complete the run. Just make sure they don't have the time to collect the gear.
4: Matix: Let them have a matix adventure. you are only as good as your skills and programs.
5: Technology: All cyberware have tags, let it be hacked and the player looses his cyberware momentarily.
6: Numbers: No matter how much armor you have, if you throw a few hundred ghouls at them or animals or drones the numbers will make the runners still feel like they don't have control.
7: Wear and tear: Armor gets worn, have a few runs where they are being hammered with lots of heavy opponents and the armor will me more and more full of holes. (see barrier rating rules). and son enough the armor will fall apart, just make sure the cannot replace it, it takes a few days for a fixer to get them a new one.
This can be done without pulling out the really big enemies. It is fun to let them think out of the box and challenge them to not feel secure. Without going overkill just to harm that one runner who has alot of armor.
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Or: Let them win. :) Part of the reason players make hypercompetent PCs is because they want to play hypercompetent PCs. Challenge is cool, but much of the time it's nice to just let the players enjoy their characters' strengths.
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Or: Let them win. :) Part of the reason players make hypercompetent PCs is because they want to play hypercompetent PCs. Challenge is cool, but much of the time it's nice to just let the players enjoy their characters' strengths.
To a point. If the story is not interesting (aka a little bit challenging) PC's will get bored with it. If there is no quest to overcome what is the real point of adventuring/running? I have always thought that the fun in the game was overcoming the odds despite having less tech, magic, numbers, etc... Besides how are you going to have a great story without great/powerful villians?
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Or: Let them win. :) Part of the reason players make hypercompetent PCs is because they want to play hypercompetent PCs. Challenge is cool, but much of the time it's nice to just let the players enjoy their characters' strengths.
To a point. If the story is not interesting (aka a little bit challenging) PC's will get bored with it. If there is no quest to overcome what is the real point of adventuring/running? I have always thought that the fun in the game was overcoming the odds despite having less tech, magic, numbers, etc... Besides how are you going to have a great story without great/powerful villians?
Generally, the first time the PC's encounter smart villains is far more challenging than any gear or armor.
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¨Besides...you never wear armor all day long...or all ..month long...for sure...it should get pretty itchy inside... and once you take it down, it is not a problem to take YOU down
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Can you imagine the stink from wearing that heavy, cumbersome armor all day? Gods in hell. The STINK!
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(As an aside, I'm happy that there's a stat for using a body in HTH combat now. "Sample Improvised Weapons: Metahuman Body (Unarmed Combat)." I ran some SR2nd where I had to flash-handle a troll sammy using a deceased elf sec man as a club. I like to think that the dissemination of that story had something to do with it showing up in rules somewhere. ;D )
I recall a similar story (from 2nd ed also) where I had to handle that oddity on the spot as well. Only the troll was using the dwarf as a thrown weapon.
Interestingly, it worked so well that the troll later specialized in Thrown Weapons (Dwarves)
I'll go one farther. The SR world I've created has Dwarf Tossing LEAGUES. It's a professional sport. And I had a troll-surge-adept player love the idea so much that he took some ranks and a spec in it, and got a costume that had AR iconography and would electronically changed the physical colors and patterns to make it look like it was covered in perpetual animated explosions.
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It's like Snotball, only with Trolls and a Dwarf, and the Dwarf can survive the match. :)
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I have this same problem right now. My group is three humans 9technomancer, wizard and faceman) and a murder troll and troll rigger. The murder troll has been giving me no end of problems and I realized early on that if I didn't kill him early on I would never be able to kill him again. He and the other troll are breaking into a guys house when they run afoul of one of two greatform spirits of man, they get stun balled pretty hard, then the murder troll uts 21 boxes of damage into the spirit. Scratch one spirit. Later, as they're loading up the truck with their loot the second GF SoM shows up and Influences the murder troll to shoot his team. It only lasted one round but the other troll was laid out immediately. Now they know fear.
I've also sprayed them down with gasoline before so they couldn't fire their weapons. Plenty of ways to challenge a murder troll or Ork.
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Talking to a real life "chummer" about one of his games, he had the similar problem of "murder" characters; ones who do nothing but well, murder... He said he used a plant a few months later and had Murder Machine's drink spiked. Poison can be a biz natch. Murder Machine Two fell for the wrong woman. Hard to use your armor when it's sprawled on the floor. Yeah, takes a while to set up, but I agree with him; sometimes it's better to use the long term approach rather than instant gratification.
Me personally, I also like and have used to great effect a Barrett 121 at range to the skull for players that have gotten out of hand and torked off the wrong people. What's good for the players is good enough for the opposition. Just my two cents.
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I did the "reality check" courtesy of the trid.
we would be fools to think that there wouldn't be a 2070's analog for COPS.
So, when setting the scene at the local bar, add in the trid of sme murder troll thinking that he is all invulnerable (cyberpsychosis?) and then roll out the 'standard' high threat response. back in the Lone Star supplement they spec'd that out as two sniper teams (spotter and 2 shooters in each), plus all the rest. just putting 4 sniper rifles on some poor fool should be enough to make them contemplate their role in the afterlife.
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Me personally, I also like and have used to great effect a Barrett 121 at range to the skull for players that have gotten out of hand and torked off the wrong people. What's good for the players is good enough for the opposition. Just my two cents.
I believe in arming the opposition as heavily as the characters as well. It just does not make sense that your PCs are the only ones that have tons of firepower. Also numbers are a good way of scaring or getting rid of your PCs. Nothing is scarier than 500 gang members surrounding a bunch of runners.
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Heavy armor is... Heavy. Try swimming in it. Or running for some time. Or climbing. Or squeezing through a manhole...
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Also-try avoiding KE stares and a thorough inspection when your walking in downtown Seattle in enough armor to stop a long burst from an assault rifle.
In otherwords baring the person being in a warzone/barrens/feral city, anyone wearing heavy armor is going to attract attention. Runners should not be attracting attention (except in LA :) ).
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Gauss Weapons....Half the Armour, THEN apply the Armour Pen Value.
But, you know, if you don't want to go that route?
Stick n Shock! Half the armour, and then the troll makes his rolls based on how well the stick and shock hit Added fun?
Stick n Shock from a Machine Pistol! 8 Stun, Electric, + net hits against the the Troll's 10 armour + Body. Remember: you are
not rolling how much damage you inflicted, they are rolling to reduce that. If the Troll as 10 body, 20 armour, he is rolling 20
dice. If you got, say, 4 net hits on your shot using a burst fire on a gun using stick n shock, you would be at a damage value of
12 stun. So, he is going to have to roll really good to not take any damage from that...and you likely have a second 3 round burst already going at him...
Simply put: Stick n Shock: your answer for anything in armour that is not a vehicle.
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Simply put: Stick n Shock: your answer for anything in armour that is not a vehicle.
Troll with only 20 points of armor and no noncondactivity ugrade at all on it isn't in any way a high armor problem PC being discussed in this topic.
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I like the Gauss weapon idea but switch out that piddly ammo for some anti-tank ammo from War!
Armor dissolvers ie smart corrosives or better yet make a chem grenade filled with universal sealant give that armored murder PC an airless immovable coffin for armor
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Unless the ammunition is specifically and explicitly designed for the gauss rifle, then it won't take it.
Haven't seen the new ammo from War! so I can't say either way.
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I like the Gauss weapon idea but switch out that piddly ammo for some anti-tank ammo from War!
Armor dissolvers ie smart corrosives or better yet make a chem grenade filled with universal sealant give that armored murder PC an airless immovable coffin for armor
Gauss gun is pretty wiz but I still think low tech is the way to learn a PC. Also making stuff as embarrassing as possible. I once had a bunch of NPCs use a frozen chicken gun to mess up a borged PC. Think of a potato gun that fires frozen chickens:-) The only thing is the chickens got a shaped charge buried in it big enough to put a hole in the borg. lol it was so funny the looks on the PCs faces. It still makes me smile:-)
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Gauss Weapons....Half the Armour, THEN apply the Armour Pen Value.
But, you know, if you don't want to go that route?
Stick n Shock! Half the armour, and then the troll makes his rolls based on how well the stick and shock hit Added fun?
Stick n Shock from a Machine Pistol! 8 Stun, Electric, + net hits against the the Troll's 10 armour + Body. Remember: you are
not rolling how much damage you inflicted, they are rolling to reduce that. If the Troll as 10 body, 20 armour, he is rolling 20
dice. If you got, say, 4 net hits on your shot using a burst fire on a gun using stick n shock, you would be at a damage value of
12 stun. So, he is going to have to roll really good to not take any damage from that...and you likely have a second 3 round burst already going at him...
Simply put: Stick n Shock: your answer for anything in armour that is not a vehicle.
Well, you see, I found that interesting. I have never thought that net hits would apply to electricity damage. Nor burst fire...if three bullets hit, its three times against 6S(e) but no 6+1+1S(e). Maybe this is something I don`t understand...but if you got hit twice with the stun baton 8S(e) you are saving against twice against 8S, not (8+1)S
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Well, you see, I found that interesting. I have never thought that net hits would apply to electricity damage. Nor burst fire...if three bullets hit, its three times against 6S(e) but no 6+1+1S(e). Maybe this is something I don`t understand...but if you got hit twice with the stun baton 8S(e) you are saving against twice against 8S, not (8+1)S
Stick and shock ammo works exactly same as all the other ammo type, so yes net hits ably and burst fire is +1 damage per additional bullet.
Stun baton on the other hand works like all the other melee weapons, so nets hits ably and there is no equivalent for burst fire so that part of your post is meaningless(Bullets also do their base damage again if their from different attack then the last bullet)
To glarify a burst of 3 bullets is base DV+2+net hits, but if your just shot 3 times then you soak 3 times the base DV + net hits(might be different amount for all 3 shots), using ammo that does electrical damage changes absolutely nothing about how the ranged combat works.
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Read the rules before you smite someone, please:
Stick-n-Shock: This is a special adhesive projectile that sticks to
the target and incorporates a battery pack that delivers short bursts of
high-voltage pulses. Te Stick-n-Shock replaces the weapon’s Damage
Value with its own.
Electrical damage is treated as Stun damage and resisted with half Impact armor (round-
ed up)—metallic armor, however, ofers no protection. Te nonconductive armor upgrade
(p. 327) adds its full rating to the armor value. Other factors may modify the target’s damage
resistance test at the gamemaster’s choosing, such as lack of grounding (a character fying by
levitation spell) or extra conductivity (a character immersed in water).
A successful Electricity damage attack can stun and incapacitate the target as well. Te
struck target must make a Body + Willpower (3) Test. Apply half the character’s Impact
armor (round down) and any other dice pool modifers as noted above to this test. If the
target fails, he immediately falls and is incapacitated for a number of Combat Turns equal
to 2 + net hits scored on the attack test. Even if the target succeeds, he sufers a –2 dice
pool modifer to all action tests due to disorientation from the shock for the same period.
Incapacitated characters are prone and unable to take any actions.
Electronic equipment, vehicles, and drones can also be afected by Electricity damage.
Tey never sufer Stun damage, but they do roll Body + Armor (drones and vehicles) or
Armor x 2 (other objects) to resist secondary efects. If they achieve equal or more hits than
the attack, they are unafected. Otherwise, they cease to function for a number of Combat
Turns equal to 2 + net hits scored on the attack test (and may need to reboot afer that).
What Im saying is that net hits would extend the effect (2+NET hits scored) of incapacitation, but damage would be 6S(e) no matter how many rounds you fired and no matter the gun you are firing it...
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Simply put: Stick n Shock: your answer for anything in armour that is not a vehicle.
Troll with only 20 points of armor and no noncondactivity ugrade at all on it isn't in any way a high armor problem PC being discussed in this topic.
So this troll of yours with 20 impact armor do not need to care about stick`n`shocks, Even impact armor 12 makes them useless.
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It doesn't say that damage is not increased by net hits, it simply adds that net hits increase the duration.
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It doesn't say that damage is not increased by net hits, it simply adds that net hits increase the duration.
I'm with Gun Nut.
Stick n'Shock damage reads to me that a low-calibre weapon (ie Machine pistol, 4P damage) replaces the base damage with those of the Stick n'Shock 6S(e)
If said machine pistol now fires a 3-round burst with 4 net success, damage from said weapon = 6 (ammo) +2 (burst) +4 = 12S(e).
As this is an electrical attack, damage is resisted with 1/2 impact armour (plus any non-conductivity upgrade) as per a normal electrical attack.
I like this actually, because it means Stickn'Shocks are less likely to pop up in high-calibre sniper rifles
I don't understand any theory advising that Stick-n'Shocks get zero benefit from burst fire.
A normal bullet gets a bonus increase, why not a Taser bullet?
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But the Stick`n`shock damage is not kinetic damage, as for normal bullets, but Electricity damage. So this damage increase doesnt make any sense. It doesnt matter how good you hit. If you hit ANY part of the body, damage is done, so the net hits doesn make sense. Increasing damage by spraying more bullets, thats something different, but I dont think that +1/ bullet is adequate to multiple taser shocks with the same intensity and voltage...
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But the Stick`n`shock damage is not kinetic damage, as for normal bullets, but Electricity damage. So this damage increase doesnt make any sense. It doesnt matter how good you hit. If you hit ANY part of the body, damage is done, so the net hits doesn make sense. Increasing damage by spraying more bullets, thats something different, but I dont think that +1/ bullet is adequate to multiple taser shocks with the same intensity and voltage...
That maybe your IRL opinion, but that has no bearing on how the game rules work and by the rules S&S work exactly like any other ammo when it comes to net hits and burst/auto fire.
Also i didn't smite you, i just explained how the rules work and how your comparison of S&S ammo and stun baton isn't in any way valid, as you wheren't comparing those 2 specifically you where comparing the base differences between melee and ranged combat.
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OK. No animozities.
That maybe your IRL opinion, but that has no bearing on how the game rules work and by the rules S&S work exactly like any other ammo when it comes to net hits and burst/auto fire.
Well this is what I understand other way, as i linked the rules previously and thus this will be my opinion in my mastering. Any weapon damage is replaced by 6S(e) even weapon damage modified by burst or autofire. And Electrical damage is dealt with other way than normal damage, net hits added to incapacitation period.
Well, it would be realistic to increase damage by burst or autofire, but not by net hits
Also i didn't smite you, i just explained how the rules work and how your comparison of S&S ammo and stun baton isn't in any way valid, as you wheren't comparing those 2 specifically you where comparing the base differences between melee and ranged combat.
I have not compared melee and ranged attacks but principle of electricity damage. I know it was a stupid example. Sorry ;)
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By RAW you have to raise the Damage by Net hits as well as by Burstfire....but a lot of Groups I know of (2 of my own also) houserule S&S Ammo because its quite imbalanced
One often used Houserule is not to raise Damage by net hits . In our Groups we still raise damage by Burst Fire though
with a more balanced Dance
Medicineman
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Well, it would be realistic to increase damage by burst or autofire, but not by net hits
Seems a strange line to draw...Net hits reflect shot accuracy. An electrical attack to the neck is going to be more effective than an attack to the leg.
And if you're hitting with more of the electrical charges, then it seems logical that a burts of such ammo will be more incapacitating than a single shot (or would you instead rule that a long burst with 9 of these bullets from an SMG still only does 6S(e)? Seems illogical)
Seems much more logical to treat Stick n'Shocks like any other ammo, just with a different base DV as per the description, that trumps normal weapon calibre DV.
As a side note, if there was a burst fire taser weapon (like a modified Defiance Supershock), would that increase the damage?
In my mind, it certainly would.... more simultaneous Electrical shocks = more damage
Ergo, Stick n'Shocks should follow the same principle.
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The way I understand it (and rule it in my game), is that the S&S ammo doesn't do any impact damage since it simply has a gummy adhesive to stick to the target and shock them with a battery pack (kinda like the explosives Batman used in Hong Kong in The Dark Knight). And, since it doesn't do impact damage, then extra hits won't translate into extra damage.
Of course, with everything else, the topic on S&S has been bandied about many times already because of the possibility of abuse*. So it all comes back to the GM's call on the matter (unless/until the Crew revisit S&S and put out official errata changing its nature).
*for instance, if you burst fire three rounds, would you then treat every round as a separate attack? As per the Combat FAQ on Shock Gloves (http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resources/frequently-asked-questions/#5).
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*for instance, if you burst fire three rounds, would you then treat every round as a separate attack? As per the Combat FAQ on Shock Gloves (http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resources/frequently-asked-questions/#5).
I don't see why you would.
You don't do this for any other burst firing weapon. Why would S&S be any different?
Query: Someone invented burst firing shock gloves to raise this as an issue? :o
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And, since it doesn't do impact damage, then extra hits won't translate into extra damage.
Do you rule this only for S&S, all electrical damage or all damage that's not kinetic.
If it's anythink other then the last one, then your illogically nerfing S&S compared to everythink else.
And even if it's the last one, it's still doesn't make much sense, as kinetic damage isn't the only kind of damage that can benefit from a better hit.
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*for instance, if you burst fire three rounds, would you then treat every round as a separate attack? As per the Combat FAQ on Shock Gloves (http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resources/frequently-asked-questions/#5).
I don't see why you would.
You don't do this for any other burst firing weapon. Why would S&S be any different?
Query: Someone invented burst firing shock gloves to raise this as an issue? :o
Well, technically, when you burst fire and choose to raise the Damage Code by X, then you are. Each bullet does less damage than the first because it's not as accurate, but you do get extra damage.
And, no, the Shock Gloves aren't Burst-fire. I point out that if your PC wears two shock gloves, each glove has it's own attack.
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And, since it doesn't do impact damage, then extra hits won't translate into extra damage.
Do you rule this only for S&S, all electrical damage or all damage that's not kinetic.
If it's anythink other then the last one, then your illogically nerfing S&S compared to everythink else.
And even if it's the last one, it's still doesn't make much sense, as kinetic damage isn't the only kind of damage that can benefit from a better hit.
The first one. And yes, it is a nerf on S&S since I think it is a wee-bit over-powered for an less-lethal weapon.
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And, no, the Shock Gloves aren't Burst-fire. I point out that if your PC wears two shock gloves, each glove has it's own attack.
You mean like every other melee weapon in the game.
S&S might be pretty good, but that nerf of your makes no logical sense what so ever.
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Heh. I just imagined taking a troll out with both-hands shock glove attack to the head. :)
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And, since it doesn't do impact damage, then extra hits won't translate into extra damage.
Do you rule this only for S&S, all electrical damage or all damage that's not kinetic.
If it's anythink other then the last one, then your illogically nerfing S&S compared to everythink else.
And even if it's the last one, it's still doesn't make much sense, as kinetic damage isn't the only kind of damage that can benefit from a better hit.
I wote for all electric damage. It works exactly as RAW:
If you fire a burst from Assault rifle / 6P +2 = 8P = weapon damage.
RAW 6S(e) replaces the weapon damage.
Net hits for electricity damage doesnt increase the power of the attack but the time of incapacitation.
Exactly RAW.
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I have always interpreted weapon damage as being the one listed in the weapon stat block. Therefore, it is RAW to modify it for net hits and burst fire.
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1.RAW 6S(e) replaces the weapon damage.
2.Net hits for electricity damage doesnt increase the power of the attack but the time of incapacitation.
Exactly RAW.
1.Yes a light pistols base damage of 4P becomes 6S(e) and then that is modified as normal by burst/auto fire and net hits.
2.Rule for nets hits not increasing damage for an attack that does electricity damage, isn't anywhere in the rules so not RAW in any way(nor is it even RAI)
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Okay, I think we're going down another road of "This is how I see it" and everyone's entitled to their own opinion on the matter. That being said, I think we covered all the bases (again) of S&S ammo. Can we say that the discussion is finished and move back to the topic of High Armor PCs?
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I'd just say that if the damage were totally resisted, then there would be no secondary stunning effect. It could represent the round striking armor or prematurely discharging or a dud round. For taser style weapons to work, they need to make contact with human flesh in some way. Too much in between would keep them from functioning (i.e. total resistance).
This makes far more sense, as it only alters a single aspect of a single rule instead of altering multiple rules and trying to codify some sort of psuedo-tech reason.
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I'd just say that if the damage were totally resisted, then there would be no secondary stunning effect. It could represent the round striking armor or prematurely discharging or a dud round. For taser style weapons to work, they need to make contact with human flesh in some way. Too much in between would keep them from functioning (i.e. total resistance).
This makes far more sense, as it only alters a single aspect of a single rule instead of altering multiple rules and trying to codify some sort of psuedo-tech reason.
IMHO
It is a part of the rule of Electric damage: If the attack is succesful = if it is not resisted completely
so if you do not resist completely this 6S(e) and take at least one box of stun, you suffer incapacitation (depends on the save roll) for time modified by net hits...
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I have always interpreted weapon damage as being the one listed in the weapon stat block. Therefore, it is RAW to modify it for net hits and burst fire.
Thats correct :)
But a lot of Players consider S&S Ammo as imbalanced (especially in Holdout or Automatic Pistols )and thats why the Houserule that you can't increase the Damage with net Hits
Okay, I think we're going down another road of "This is how I see it" and everyone's entitled to their own opinion on the matter. That being said, I think we covered all the bases (again) of S&S ammo. Can we say that the discussion is finished and move back to the topic of High Armor PCs?
ooops ,didn't see Your Post ;D
JahtaHey
Medicineman
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I have a question regarding the amount of armor a flesh and blood person can have.
Vehicles are limited to 20 armor, why aren't people?
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I have a question regarding the amount of armor a flesh and blood person can have.
Vehicles are limited to 20 armor, why aren't people?
According to Milspec there is no such thing like cap at 20 poits for vehicles...
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He's speaking about Arsenal p 132, Armor Modification.
This is purely for Armor mods and would not effect anything that has a starting armor above 20.
That 20 cap is a slight misread though. That is saying the rating of each can go up to 20 for normal, 10 for concealed or smart, not the armor value itself is capped. You can combine regular armor and smart armor for results above 20. They do it themselves in the next line about the Steal Lynx:
...
could be equipped with a maximum of Rating 10 concealed armor or Tating 12 normal armor + Rating 10 smart armor.
...
So you could have up to 20 normal + 10 smart. A total armor rating of 30.
While it doesn't specifically SAY that smart armor also adds to the armor rating in addition to it's AP negating effect, I assume that it does. After all, it says that it is superior to normal. Additionally only putting smart armor on a vehicle would be fairly pointless otherwise and there appears to be nothing stopping you from doing that. And finally, the description for normal armor ALSO fails to mention that it adds anything to the vehicle's armor rating. Details ::)
Anyhow, my take on it is that smart armor adds it's rating to the armor pool as well, at least so long as it still has uses. I could be wrong on this though.
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All the armor in the world can't stop a little narcojet
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Umm...yes it can. Unless there is either sufficient damage to penetrate the armor, or the narcojet is aerosolized and the target doesn't have proper NBC gear, then the narcojet is stopped.
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All the armor in the world can't stop a little narcojet
Nor a long fall and a short stop. I can remember in a Cyberpunk game a bunch of heavily armored solos getting on an elevator going up 27 stories and then the GM's NPC netrunner hacking it. The NPC stopped the elevator between floors then dropped it injuring everybody inside. It was great. I do not care how much armor you have, plummeting 270 feet will mess up a PC no matter how much armor he has on.
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All the armor in the world can't stop a little narcojet
Nor a long fall and a short stop. I can remember in a Cyberpunk game a bunch of heavily armored solos getting on an elevator going up 27 stories and then the GM's NPC netrunner hacking it. The NPC stopped the elevator between floors then dropped it injuring everybody inside. It was great. I do not care how much armor you have, plummeting 270 feet will mess up a PC no matter how much armor he has on.
now thats just evil.......i like it
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All the armor in the world can't stop a little narcojet
Nor a long fall and a short stop. I can remember in a Cyberpunk game a bunch of heavily armored solos getting on an elevator going up 27 stories and then the GM's NPC netrunner hacking it. The NPC stopped the elevator between floors then dropped it injuring everybody inside. It was great. I do not care how much armor you have, plummeting 270 feet will mess up a PC no matter how much armor he has on.
now thats just evil.......i like it
Yeah it was evil but funny as hell especially the way my GM described it. I was laughing my butt off because my character took the stairs. All 32 of them. It was a long haul but I was one of only 2 PCs not to be injured.
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All the armor in the world can't stop a little narcojet
Nor a long fall and a short stop. I can remember in a Cyberpunk game a bunch of heavily armored solos getting on an elevator going up 27 stories and then the GM's NPC netrunner hacking it. The NPC stopped the elevator between floors then dropped it injuring everybody inside. It was great. I do not care how much armor you have, plummeting 270 feet will mess up a PC no matter how much armor he has on.
now thats just evil.......i like it
Yeah it was evil but funny as hell especially the way my GM described it. I was laughing my butt off because my character took the stairs. All 32 of them. It was a long haul but I was one of only 2 PCs not to be injured.
Yet another reason to stay active and take the stairs
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Nor a long fall and a short stop. I can remember in a Cyberpunk game a bunch of heavily armored solos getting on an elevator going up 27 stories and then the GM's NPC netrunner hacking it. The NPC stopped the elevator between floors then dropped it injuring everybody inside. It was great. I do not care how much armor you have, plummeting 270 feet will mess up a PC no matter how much armor he has on.
Interesting mathematical scenario for my Gun-fu physad... a dude who has made it his job to leap regularly from skyscraper balconies....
Falling Distance in this scenario = 270' = 82.3m
8 ranks of Freefall lowers falling distance to 66.3m (82.3-16)
Therefore damage to be resisted = 66
Physical damage track before deadly overflow = 10+3 boxes, so damage that can be taken (while surviving) = 53 boxes (66-13)
Impact armour of 12, adds 6 dice to resistance test
Gymnastics skill of 5 ranks +6 (Improved skill) adds 11 dice to resistance test
Body of 4 adds 4 dice
Edge adds 4 dice (rerolling 6's)....
So, 25dice (rerolling 6's) to resist 53 boxes of damage.... ???
I think we're pucked :-[
Gravity's a law that this phys-ad still needs to follow, apparently!
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Gravity's a law that this phys-ad still needs to follow, apparently!
or FALL
OOOOOOOOW....
!!!SPLASH!!!!
It is not the fall that kills, but the impact on the ground... :D
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I found that DMSO/Narcojet or Neurostun gas grenades are great for high armor targets... The PC that's built around being a tank gives me the dirtiest looks...
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I found that DMSO/Narcojet or Neurostun gas grenades are great for high armor targets... The PC that's built around being a tank gives me the dirtiest looks...
Works somewhat fine, up until they start wearing gasmask while on the run.
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DMSO works on skin contact. They'd need a full environmental seal to protect against that.
And that stuff is not something you can walk down anywhere with and not get noticed. And, frankly, it just makes sense for security guards that don't have a right to have lethal grenades to have a low-lethality option like Narcojet/Neruostun.
I've also ruled that anyone who critically glitches on a resist roll against those drugs either has just found out, or has just developed, an allergy to it, and are potentially going to die. It's come up only once.
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Seems reasonable.
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Or - if its a problem for your campaign to have players who are highly armoure - you could simply tell them not to? :P
I have read alot of posts on these forums about GM's having trouble with high powered chars due to various game mechanics, and it always leaves me a little puzzled.
Personally in my 25 years of gamemastering (in various systems, but also SR since 1st ed) I never really had a problem with this - I follow a few simple guidelines.
1) Discuss the type of campaign I'm running with my players, mainly, pointing out that while combat is a part of the game, then its a mean to achieve a goal, not a goal in itself.
2) Focus on roleplaying aspects and challenges not involving combat, or involving combat in less direct ways (as some pointed out, there is alot of reasons why heavy armour/weapons is just not always an option)
3) Point out that while killing people is sometimes part of the job, then runners are generally not killers and psychopats who gets a kick out of killing people. Remember its a roleplaying game, not a tactical combat boardgame. Runners generally kill to survive, not to have fun. The sec guards are not evil monsters from a fantasy rpg, they are real people with families, kids, wifes etc.
4) Rules are guidelines, and GM's dosn't have to follow them, this is something I see alot of GM's do "wrong" in my opinion, they try to justify everything they do based on rules - don't, just be fair, its your job as a GM to direct a good story that everyone enjoys, its not your job to spend your time worrying about how to deal with players who abuse (and yes, in my opinion it IS abuse) the rules to max out out their survival potential.
5) Use the world/setting of the game to make players understand that they cannot walk around as highly amoured killing machines without serious consequences. Shadowrunners are meant to be discrete, not make the news regularly due to mass killing sprees or causing wide spread panic from walking down the street with an assault cannon on a gyro-mount. Corps tolerate shadowrunners because its simply to costly to hunt them down (remember, there is no money in revenge) but if a team constantly kills alot of sec guards or causes serious collateral damage on their runs, its not far fetched to imagine a few of the corps getting hit might think its more costly NOT to stop them from repeating it.
Maybe Im just blessed with having players who generally don't go all out except on rare occassions, or maybe they trust me to keep things fair and fun despite my constant "cheating" and dice fudging.
I think it boils down to respecting each other - remember players and gamemasters are not enemies, roleplaying is not about the players vs. the gm - if something troubles you, talk with the players, sort it out - don't resort to silly instant killing chars or sending overpowered opposition against them in a way that defies logic, some runs the opposition won't be a challenge to the players, and thats perfectly fine, they might be able to kill the 10 mundane non-cybered corp sec guards at a facility without blinking, but there IS and SHOULD be other challenges in a run than the combat side of things. Mix it up.
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@ Man Who Walks At NIght - The main problem with high armor PCs is that rarely dose the GM wish to have a confrontation with a player over game mechanics i.e. GM says "please don't do it" PC says "but it said I can in the rules" other times it is because the GM doesn't wish to limit the PC's.
Some times it is just difficult to tell them "NO!" but I have an aluminum hint stick just to make sure ;D
side note... you are blessed to have such understanding players. Sometimes I end up having chemistry and ballistics arguments with my players when the rules don't support what they want. I have never as a GM liked saying "No" unless I had a better reason then "game balance" besides game balance is a ratio if the super duper armor 52/50 PC is getting you down then have some of that armor reduce because of SOTA
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lol so, sorry if this has been said, I only read the first 9 pages *gasp* and the amount of off topic made my head spin ;) lol.
lots of great idea's here but my tank is a mage, none of the magic I throw at him works because of sheilding. He always has 10+ dice in it as he uses assault rifles and sustained spells. Acid sounds good but the Armor spell is on top, would the acid get through? Can you call shot to negate armor when he has a 10 force armor spell, full suit form-fitted body armor, and a full suit a security armor (all of which cover head to toe)? Oh BTW he's always invisible and silenced (indirect illusions are only resisted if the observer has a reason to suspect something is there), with an elemental scouting for astral targets that can give him away.
I'm having a hard time hurting him with out slaughtering the others
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If the problem can't be solved by a firearm, you need a bigger firearm.
If that doesn't work, well, hit them. With a dump truck full of sand. Repeat as necessary.
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LOL he flies too, but if you can't see or hear him how do you target him. Oh and, lol, if you do manage to resist his invisiblity he has Ruthinium +12 on his security armor
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*Blinks*
Autoshotguns. Lots of them. With armor-defeating solid tungsten buckshot.
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The important thing is that PCs are limited by their build points, karma, and earned cash. NPCs have no such limits. For instance:
- Armor 40 mage giving you problems? A single hit from a DV 14 attack (a full auto burst) is probably going to get some damage through. Or you can come at it from the opposite direction and hit him with things that halve or ignore armor, like stick-n-shock or chemicals. Nerve Strike (adept power) also ignores armor and is great at taking people down.
- Invisible mage can't be seen? Sensors ignore that sort of stuff except for the vision-based ones, so toss in a few drones. Magically active opponents can take a -2 die penalty to astrally perceive and see his aura no problem (unless it's mana-based invis, but then it has no effect on sensors at all).
- Shapeshifter with regen shrugging off all the damage he takes? He has at least one vulnerability, meaning there's something he can't regen and will take extra damage from.
- Shielding interfering with enemy spells? Have them ritual cast, or just flat out give them more dice. Summoned high force spirits with Innate Spell are good at getting a lot of dice. 10+? Ha! a bound Force 9 spirit has 18 dice to use on its three spells.
- If he's vastly more powerful than the other characters, his reputation probably precedes him. You don't have to sipe the floor with the other PCs, because the enemies will constantly be targeting Superman. Once they drop him, a simple "we took out your heaviest hitter, wanna surrender?" should be enough to save the rest of them.
The point to remember is that you have infinity on your side. There's no such thing as PC numbers so high an NPC can't punch through them. If he's the type of guy that's building powerful characters at the expense of the rest of the group and refuses to tone them down, it's your job as GM to challenge him. If that challenge ends up with him burning edge to survive, oh well. :)
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I'm having a hard time hurting him with out slaughtering the others
Sniper(or two) equipped with radar sensor for seeing him and armed with a gauss rifle doing a called shot for +4 to DV should do the trick quite well.
If the sniper gets 3 nethits, the mage of your would need 37 points of armor to turn the damage into stun and on avarage 51 dice to soak all of the damage.
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we're playing 3rd, haven't seen a radar senser or a guess rifle anywhere
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Hit him with a car, then a truck, then a semi, and have him stumble onto some train tracks and introduce the freight train.
I don't care how much armor you have...
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chalk that up to vindictive GM. It's a bit biased, I need it to not cause a fight at the table lol.
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we're playing 3rd, haven't seen a radar senser or a guess rifle anywhere
Thats somethink you should usually mention, helps you at getting better answers.
Basic assumption is that everyones's playing the latest edition.
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chalk that up to vindictive GM. It's a bit biased, I need it to not cause a fight at the table lol.
Hey, if he's going to be stupid enough to play in traffic...
And, well, knowing my group...
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I don't recall all of the differences between 3e and 4e, but my basic point stands: there's no such thing as PC numbers that NPCs can't go higher than. If you're unwilling to use your full abilities as GM in order to ensure that the game is a challenge, you may as well just resign yourself to the guy being more powerful than anything you toss at him. If you are willing, massage the suggestions you've gotten in this thread to match your edition.
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When all else fails, some crazy guy with a Monowire Weed Whacker coming at the group will put the fear of Ghost into even the most heavily armored fellow!
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lol so, sorry if this has been said, I only read the first 9 pages *gasp* and the amount of off topic made my head spin ;) lol.
lots of great idea's here but my tank is a mage, none of the magic I throw at him works because of sheilding. He always has 10+ dice in it as he uses assault rifles and sustained spells. Acid sounds good but the Armor spell is on top, would the acid get through? Can you call shot to negate armor when he has a 10 force armor spell, full suit form-fitted body armor, and a full suit a security armor (all of which cover head to toe)? Oh BTW he's always invisible and silenced (indirect illusions are only resisted if the observer has a reason to suspect something is there), with an elemental scouting for astral targets that can give him away.
I'm having a hard time hurting him with out slaughtering the others
A few things to keep in mind with sustained spells, wether its from foci, spirits or metamagic.
- Barriers can disrupt them, if the player walks through an astral barrier, it might cancel the spell.
- Sustained spells can be disrupted with astral combat.
Without magical opposition, yeah, sustained spells can be a real problem - again, Im lucky, my magic slinging players simply just don't stack up on armour like that, they might add an armour jacket on top of their spell but rarely more unless I have given them a good reason (like telling them its an aztechnology facility they are hitting :P)
It seems I am indeed just lucky with my players - or Im doing something as a GM to discourage it, unfortunately, I can't put my finger on what it might be hehe.
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The character has to sleep, kill him then. Sounds like you should have done it a long time ago. That or hit the reset button on the whole campaign. Then let the players know why. If you gotta be a soft touch, then steal the armor while he sleeps. Send a horde of spirits to attack him, his sustained spells or his foci astrally.
Also, learn the word no. Unless one guys power gaming is more important than your whole groups fun, in which case, carry on.
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If I can start my campaign up again, one of my players is going to find out what happens to the suspension of an armored vehicle that's left sitting for a month... Not good.
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@ Man Who Walks At NIght - The main problem with high armor PCs is that rarely dose the GM wish to have a confrontation with a player over game mechanics i.e. GM says "please don't do it" PC says "but it said I can in the rules" other times it is because the GM doesn't wish to limit the PC's.
Sometimes (and yes, I'm starting to think I'm really lucky with players) you don't need to say no. I had a troll physad player re-roll on his own because he felt his char was too powerful... or the first time one of my players who usually plays a street sam, made a mage - and after toasting alot of enemies said "Are you sure we are doing it right? mages seems overly powerful, did we miss some rules?" I think the atmosphere of the games, and wether or not brute force is often the solution is the key here, that, and of course my players knowing that I am perfectly capable of always killing them if thats what its about, but thats not a solution I have ever used to prove a point. If I can't hit my players - I hit their friends, families, contacts, property etc, I have to say my players are really never out of control, and its not unusual for them to do a run wearing armour jackets and only heavy pistols, this despite I gave one of the players a High Grade military armour - he just dosn't use it, but it makes sense for his character to have one as he deserted from the Aztlan army during a mission.
Some times it is just difficult to tell them "NO!" but I have an aluminum hint stick just to make sure ;D
The rule in my campaigns is that violence is rarely the best option :)
side note... you are blessed to have such understanding players. Sometimes I end up having chemistry and ballistics arguments with my players when the rules don't support what they want. I have never as a GM liked saying "No" unless I had a better reason then "game balance" besides game balance is a ratio if the super duper armor 52/50 PC is getting you down then have some of that armor reduce because of SOTA
I agree "No" is a bad word to use as a gamemaster in general, I try to avoid it and let me players go out on whatever tangent they like, but perhaps its also a matter of who much focus combat has in a game, what kind of mission targets they get, my players mostly use brute force against "easy targets", when they are set against targets where they expect tough opposition, they use legwork and planning to try to circumvent the security forces and do things discretely. But yeah, I am blessed with good players, I trained them well :P
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I agree "No" is a bad word to use as a gamemaster in general, I try to avoid it and let me players go out on whatever tangent they like....
I concur.
My normal response is:
'You tell me if that's what your PC does, and I'll tell you what happens....'
Sometimes it's brilliant, other times ludicrous, and on very rare ccasions, it's both. But the above statement puts the players into 'Put up or shut up' mode, which normally gets the game moving again ;)
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lol so, sorry if this has been said, I only read the first 9 pages *gasp* and the amount of off topic made my head spin ;) lol.
lots of great idea's here but my tank is a mage, none of the magic I throw at him works because of sheilding. He always has 10+ dice in it as he uses assault rifles and sustained spells. Acid sounds good but the Armor spell is on top, would the acid get through? Can you call shot to negate armor when he has a 10 force armor spell, full suit form-fitted body armor, and a full suit a security armor (all of which cover head to toe)? Oh BTW he's always invisible and silenced (indirect illusions are only resisted if the observer has a reason to suspect something is there), with an elemental scouting for astral targets that can give him away.
I'm having a hard time hurting him with out slaughtering the others
A few things to keep in mind with sustained spells, wether its from foci, spirits or metamagic.
- Barriers can disrupt them, if the player walks through an astral barrier, it might cancel the spell.
- Sustained spells can be disrupted with astral combat.
Without magical opposition, yeah, sustained spells can be a real problem - again, Im lucky, my magic slinging players simply just don't stack up on armour like that, they might add an armour jacket on top of their spell but rarely more unless I have given them a good reason (like telling them its an aztechnology facility they are hitting :P)
It seems I am indeed just lucky with my players - or Im doing something as a GM to discourage it, unfortunately, I can't put my finger on what it might be hehe.
My question is can he swim? Especially while keeping a spell up and with all that nice heavy armor. You would be surprised what players do not think about when creating characters. Put em on a boat. Sink the boat:-)
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The armor spell glows (Bright blue iirc). That should deal with the invisibility.
What's his quickness? Are you enforcing the encumbrance rules?
Mages after a certain point are extremely powerful. It becomes very tough to counter them.
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lol so, sorry if this has been said, I only read the first 9 pages *gasp* and the amount of off topic made my head spin ;) lol.
lots of great idea's here but my tank is a mage, none of the magic I throw at him works because of sheilding. He always has 10+ dice in it as he uses assault rifles and sustained spells. Acid sounds good but the Armor spell is on top, would the acid get through? Can you call shot to negate armor when he has a 10 force armor spell, full suit form-fitted body armor, and a full suit a security armor (all of which cover head to toe)? Oh BTW he's always invisible and silenced (indirect illusions are only resisted if the observer has a reason to suspect something is there), with an elemental scouting for astral targets that can give him away.
I'm having a hard time hurting him with out slaughtering the others
A) With this many sustained spells, he has to have either a bunch of foci, or a bunch of spirits sustaining them. Either of those will draw attention (unless he's taking multiple -2 penalties for sustaining each spell? But I doubt it...)
B) Even the most minor ward (breached or not) will glow like crazy if this guy walks past it
C) FAB Bacteria will mess with his spells, as will motion sensors, pressure sensors, MAD scanners or many forms of other easily-accessible security detection
D) A F1 watcher spirit will see him, and these are rented out to even low level corps
E) Dual natured watchdogs (Barghests, Hell Hounds etc) will have fun with him
F) Spirit/Critter powers will work wonders on him. Most don't get any Counterspelling defense
G) It's hard work to get Security armour onto most runs. Give them a few where they can't sneak armour or assault rifles into the mission
H) You can't call a shot to negate armour, but you can do +4DV. That can hurt a person.
I) There's ALWAYS someone tougher. A single Astrally perceiving enemy (Ghoul? Perceiving Mage?) with any of the below will knock him on his ass, especially with a couple of net successes:
-- LMG on Tripod: Full Auto Narrow burst = 15P. Average you'll need 45 dice to soak that.
-- SMG with APDS and Full auto also = lots. 45+ dice to soak
-- TAZER of any calibre with a called shot will get you to 14DV and HALF-IMPACT armour.
-- Unarmed/Melee Combat with knockdown tests
J) Reflecting ward at a nice high force (Street Magic). Happy boy walks through, and if he's lucky, he doesn't fall unconscious. However all his seperate foci and suatained spells are fried.
K) It takes time and effort to layer sustained spells and armour like this. Surprise him at some stage
L) It takes 10 successes to get R10 armour, and a F10 spell to boot just to try it (unless rolling Edge every time). Are you enforcing drain on this guy at all? Also, this requires a F10 focus or F10 spirit to sustain (o.O) if you're letting the PC play with these power levels with no consequence, I'm begginning to think this issue may be your own damn fault!
M) Acid spell is resisted with Counterspelling and Half-impact armour. Yes it will get through eventually but unlikely to be fast enough with all the Counterspelling and armour dice we're talking about.
N) Invisible and silenced does NOT mean intangible. The PC still has physical form, so water, mist, air currents, puddles, adept powers (Mana sense I think it is? Or Sensing Metamagic) will pick the PC up no worries.
O) The armor spell glows (Bright blue iirc). That should deal with the invisibility.
Glow definitely. Blue colour however is an old edition holdover :)
Either way, this should allow automatic rolls to resist the Invisibility indirect illusion
P) Indirect illusion only works on technology (Cameras, microphones etc) with 5+ successes on the spellcasting test (to beat the Object resistance). This requires 15 spellcasting dice (on average) or 20 dice to automatically buy the successes. I'd definately make him roll this, and the required drain, every damn time.
There, so that's what, 15 ways to screw with any munchkin-mage. Have fun ;)
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My 3rd ed. book is packed away right now or I'd help more. Some of what Charybdis said is 4ed specific, but a lot can be made to work.
I will add FAB III is your friend.
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Magic dead zone, drones with LMG's, serve with a side of Olive oil to smooth things over.
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-- TAZER of any calibre with a called shot will get you to 14DV and HALF-IMPACT armour.
what kind of tasers do you have in your game, the normal ones in the book do 6S and the troll takedown one does 8S, so thats 10S and 12S with a called shot for +4 damage.
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-- TAZER of any calibre with a called shot will get you to 14DV and HALF-IMPACT armour.
what kind of tasers do you have in your game, the normal ones in the book do 6S and the troll takedown one does 8S, so thats 10S and 12S with a called shot for +4 damage.
My apology, I was remembering the 3rd Ed Defiance which was 10S. You are correct, in that the 4th ed version is 8S(e), +4DV = 12S.
My bad.
Still, 12S(e) with Half-Impact armour (plus net successes) is going to ignore a lot of this Munchkin-mage power....
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Large Burst or Full Auto with S&S Ammo. Expensive but also effective
with expensive & effective Dance
Medicineman
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Or that full auto revolver we're talking about in another thread with SnS.
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Or that full auto revolver we're talking about in another thread with SnS.
What purpose does the full auto revolver serve in this, S&S has a fixed damage code, so a machine pistol works just as well and lets you fire more then one burst before realoading.
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Or that full auto revolver we're talking about in another thread with SnS.
What purpose does the full auto revolver serve in this, S&S has a fixed damage code, so a machine pistol works just as well and lets you fire more then one burst before realoading.
Oh crap :o The S&S argument has been revived in this thread... Again! :-X
*ducks for cover*
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I was going to suggest an evil, possibly goateed, twin, but I think that list was better. Still...immovable object meets immovable object!
Alternatively, don't attack him. Think like a civil engineer, not a mountain climber. Play mind games with him. Go after his friends. Ruin his credit rating, or his reputation (another use for the evil twin).
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Or have his face show up on the news next to the image of the little girl trying not to cry while she explains (in vague child-like terms) what her daddy did to her.
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Or have his face show up on the news next to the image of the little girl trying not to cry while she explains (in vague child-like terms) what her daddy did to her.
Interesting tangent:
A family member had HER picture in the paper for an technical article, but in one of those classic twists of media idiocy, the headline for a different article was placed over her picture as:
Child sex offender on the loose.
We framed the page.
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Wait, the media actually is intelligent at times?