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(SR 5) Rigger 5

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RiggerBob

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« Reply #345 on: <02-29-16/0911:53> »
Yes, Rigger 5 is one of the better (if not the best) books so far. And thank you Wakshaani for all the work and devotion you show us...

But:

I start reading the book and can find the first glaring error after two sentences (but hey, we all had fun with Fancy Derek, didn't we?^^).

There are missing rules.
There are rules contradicting each other.
There are missing stats.
There are wrong stats.
There are (again) wrongly aligned tables (something you can find by just flipping through the book without knowing anything about the system btw...)
There are inconsistencies between rules and fluff text, inconsistancies between rule texts and rule charts, inconsistencies between different chapters etc.

There's no word on any errata after nearly 3 months...

There's a single freelancer who works hard to explain reasoning and thoughts behind some things in the book (as far as he's allowed to), confirming errors and collecting more errors for future corrections etc...

And (based on this thread and the rigger 5 errata thread) that same person has on occasion:
- commented on errors he already corrected in his submissions before
- talked about rules that should be there but were miraculous cut from the book (how many autosofts can a drone run again?^^)
- refered to core rules that are not in the core book (program ratings are generally limited by device rating? Is there a document including this rule, because it's not in my core book? Is such a document with the complete/corrected rules available for persons working at new books only or could this possibly be worth printing an errata, so people who paid for books could get working rules?)

Again... Rigger 5 is still a far better book than... well... most other sourcebook printed in the last years. (Some of them are waiting for errata for how long again?^^)


There are dozens over dozens of rules and fluff questions in this forum and nearly all of them have one thing in common: Players, who already spend their money on books, spend time to explain rules based on previous editions and consensus reached through forum discussions. Because there's nearly never an official answer. And in the rare cases there is one, it either contradicts itself, the setting, other rules or brings a couple of new questions/inconsistencies.


And now officials here tell us, speaking about "poor quality" is a matter of "personal opinion"?

I don't even know what would make me more sad. You really believing that or being forced to say it  because this is an official forum...


Either way, it's insulting.
Insulting to every single person (freelancers included of course) here on the forums, spending days, weeks or even months of their lifetime trying to make a working system out of the mess that gets printed for 5th edition. Just because they love this game...

TL;DR:

Yes, 5th edition is a mess (some books more than others) and unplayable without extensive corrections.

@Players: Get over it... Make your own changes and enjoy your game. There a tons of people here eager to share their insight regarding rules and background. Just don't wait for something official.

@"Officials": Get over it... I really stopped caring if you give us errata'd rules, try to improve future work or just tell us you don't care... But - please, please, pretty please - don't lie to us. After years of 5th ed. we're used to it. But nobody's stupid enough to believe everything's fine and works as intended anymore...

AJCarrington

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« Reply #346 on: <02-29-16/1227:11> »
Yes, Rigger 5 is one of the better (if not the best) books so far. And thank you Wakshaani for all the work and devotion you show us...

But:

I start reading the book and can find the first glaring error after two sentences (but hey, we all had fun with Fancy Derek, didn't we?^^).

There are missing rules.
There are rules contradicting each other.
There are missing stats.
There are wrong stats.
There are (again) wrongly aligned tables (something you can find by just flipping through the book without knowing anything about the system btw...)
There are inconsistencies between rules and fluff text, inconsistancies between rule texts and rule charts, inconsistencies between different chapters etc.

There's no word on any errata after nearly 3 months...

There's a single freelancer who works hard to explain reasoning and thoughts behind some things in the book (as far as he's allowed to), confirming errors and collecting more errors for future corrections etc...

And (based on this thread and the rigger 5 errata thread) that same person has on occasion:
- commented on errors he already corrected in his submissions before
- talked about rules that should be there but were miraculous cut from the book (how many autosofts can a drone run again?^^)
- refered to core rules that are not in the core book (program ratings are generally limited by device rating? Is there a document including this rule, because it's not in my core book? Is such a document with the complete/corrected rules available for persons working at new books only or could this possibly be worth printing an errata, so people who paid for books could get working rules?)

Again... Rigger 5 is still a far better book than... well... most other sourcebook printed in the last years. (Some of them are waiting for errata for how long again?^^)


There are dozens over dozens of rules and fluff questions in this forum and nearly all of them have one thing in common: Players, who already spend their money on books, spend time to explain rules based on previous editions and consensus reached through forum discussions. Because there's nearly never an official answer. And in the rare cases there is one, it either contradicts itself, the setting, other rules or brings a couple of new questions/inconsistencies.


And now officials here tell us, speaking about "poor quality" is a matter of "personal opinion"?

I don't even know what would make me more sad. You really believing that or being forced to say it  because this is an official forum...


Either way, it's insulting.
Insulting to every single person (freelancers included of course) here on the forums, spending days, weeks or even months of their lifetime trying to make a working system out of the mess that gets printed for 5th edition. Just because they love this game...

TL;DR:

Yes, 5th edition is a mess (some books more than others) and unplayable without extensive corrections.

@Players: Get over it... Make your own changes and enjoy your game. There a tons of people here eager to share their insight regarding rules and background. Just don't wait for something official.

@"Officials": Get over it... I really stopped caring if you give us errata'd rules, try to improve future work or just tell us you don't care... But - please, please, pretty please - don't lie to us. After years of 5th ed. we're used to it. But nobody's stupid enough to believe everything's fine and works as intended anymore...

If you have questions or issues with the moderation, please feel free to contact myself or FastJack.
« Last Edit: <02-29-16/1956:49> by AJCarrington »

adzling

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« Reply #347 on: <02-29-16/1426:22> »
You said it very eloquently, thank you for this.

Yes, Rigger 5 is one of the better (if not the best) books so far. And thank you Wakshaani for all the work and devotion you show us...

But:

I start reading the book and can find the first glaring error after two sentences (but hey, we all had fun with Fancy Derek, didn't we?^^).

There are missing rules.
There are rules contradicting each other.
There are missing stats.
There are wrong stats.
There are (again) wrongly aligned tables (something you can find by just flipping through the book without knowing anything about the system btw...)
There are inconsistencies between rules and fluff text, inconsistancies between rule texts and rule charts, inconsistencies between different chapters etc.

There's no word on any errata after nearly 3 months...

There's a single freelancer who works hard to explain reasoning and thoughts behind some things in the book (as far as he's allowed to), confirming errors and collecting more errors for future corrections etc...

And (based on this thread and the rigger 5 errata thread) that same person has on occasion:
- commented on errors he already corrected in his submissions before
- talked about rules that should be there but were miraculous cut from the book (how many autosofts can a drone run again?^^)
- refered to core rules that are not in the core book (program ratings are generally limited by device rating? Is there a document including this rule, because it's not in my core book? Is such a document with the complete/corrected rules available for persons working at new books only or could this possibly be worth printing an errata, so people who paid for books could get working rules?)

Again... Rigger 5 is still a far better book than... well... most other sourcebook printed in the last years. (Some of them are waiting for errata for how long again?^^)


There are dozens over dozens of rules and fluff questions in this forum and nearly all of them have one thing in common: Players, who already spend their money on books, spend time to explain rules based on previous editions and consensus reached through forum discussions. Because there's nearly never an official answer. And in the rare cases there is one, it either contradicts itself, the setting, other rules or brings a couple of new questions/inconsistencies.


And now officials here tell us, speaking about "poor quality" is a matter of "personal opinion"?

I don't even know what would make me more sad. You really believing that or being forced to say it  because this is an official forum...


Either way, it's insulting.
Insulting to every single person (freelancers included of course) here on the forums, spending days, weeks or even months of their lifetime trying to make a working system out of the mess that gets printed for 5th edition. Just because they love this game...

TL;DR:

Yes, 5th edition is a mess (some books more than others) and unplayable without extensive corrections.

@Players: Get over it... Make your own changes and enjoy your game. There a tons of people here eager to share their insight regarding rules and background. Just don't wait for something official.

@"Officials": Get over it... I really stopped caring if you give us errata'd rules, try to improve future work or just tell us you don't care... But - please, please, pretty please - don't lie to us. After years of 5th ed. we're used to it. But nobody's stupid enough to believe everything's fine and works as intended anymore...

ScytheKnight

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« Reply #348 on: <02-29-16/1746:17> »
There's no word on any errata after nearly 3 months...

Try since Street Grimorie was erratad.
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FastJack

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« Reply #349 on: <03-01-16/0751:57> »
Yes, Rigger 5 is one of the better (if not the best) books so far. And thank you Wakshaani for all the work and devotion you show us...

But:

I start reading the book and can find the first glaring error after two sentences (but hey, we all had fun with Fancy Derek, didn't we?^^).

There are missing rules.
There are rules contradicting each other.
There are missing stats.
There are wrong stats.
There are (again) wrongly aligned tables (something you can find by just flipping through the book without knowing anything about the system btw...)
There are inconsistencies between rules and fluff text, inconsistancies between rule texts and rule charts, inconsistencies between different chapters etc.

There's no word on any errata after nearly 3 months...

There's a single freelancer who works hard to explain reasoning and thoughts behind some things in the book (as far as he's allowed to), confirming errors and collecting more errors for future corrections etc...

And (based on this thread and the rigger 5 errata thread) that same person has on occasion:
- commented on errors he already corrected in his submissions before
- talked about rules that should be there but were miraculous cut from the book (how many autosofts can a drone run again?^^)
- refered to core rules that are not in the core book (program ratings are generally limited by device rating? Is there a document including this rule, because it's not in my core book? Is such a document with the complete/corrected rules available for persons working at new books only or could this possibly be worth printing an errata, so people who paid for books could get working rules?)

Again... Rigger 5 is still a far better book than... well... most other sourcebook printed in the last years. (Some of them are waiting for errata for how long again?^^)


There are dozens over dozens of rules and fluff questions in this forum and nearly all of them have one thing in common: Players, who already spend their money on books, spend time to explain rules based on previous editions and consensus reached through forum discussions. Because there's nearly never an official answer. And in the rare cases there is one, it either contradicts itself, the setting, other rules or brings a couple of new questions/inconsistencies.


And now officials here tell us, speaking about "poor quality" is a matter of "personal opinion"?

I don't even know what would make me more sad. You really believing that or being forced to say it  because this is an official forum...


Either way, it's insulting.
Insulting to every single person (freelancers included of course) here on the forums, spending days, weeks or even months of their lifetime trying to make a working system out of the mess that gets printed for 5th edition. Just because they love this game...

TL;DR:

Yes, 5th edition is a mess (some books more than others) and unplayable without extensive corrections.

@Players: Get over it... Make your own changes and enjoy your game. There a tons of people here eager to share their insight regarding rules and background. Just don't wait for something official.

@"Officials": Get over it... I really stopped caring if you give us errata'd rules, try to improve future work or just tell us you don't care... But - please, please, pretty please - don't lie to us. After years of 5th ed. we're used to it. But nobody's stupid enough to believe everything's fine and works as intended anymore...

As the main moderator, it's not my job to police how you feel about the products being discussed. However, when you attack individuals working on the product, then I will step in. I honestly don't care if you like or hate 5th Edition rules, or what you think of production qualities. There are ways (as you've just shown) of getting your point across without verbally assaulting other forum members and Catalyst employees and freelancers. Keep it polite and civil, and no moderation is needed.

SichoPhiend

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« Reply #350 on: <03-02-16/1911:00> »
Now that we have drone upgrading rules, I need to ask.

Can a Smart Firing Platform (CRB p. 433) be upgraded, if so, what are it's base stats?  The only stat we are given is a Pilot of 3, it even mentions using clearsight as a common autosoft, but we don't know the platform's sensor rating.
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Fabe

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« Reply #351 on: <03-02-16/2147:10> »
 Any know if a street date has been announced yet?

AJCarrington

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« Reply #352 on: <03-02-16/2159:29> »
Nothing confirmed yet, AFAIK.

Wakshaani

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« Reply #353 on: <03-03-16/0057:31> »
Now that we have drone upgrading rules, I need to ask.

Can a Smart Firing Platform (CRB p. 433) be upgraded, if so, what are it's base stats?  The only stat we are given is a Pilot of 3, it even mentions using clearsight as a common autosoft, but we don't know the platform's sensor rating.

That's a very good question! I'll see if anyone upstairs has anything official in mind, and if not, I'll whip something up.

thePrimarch

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« Reply #354 on: <03-03-16/0918:46> »
That's a very good question! I'll see if anyone upstairs has anything official in mind, and if not, I'll whip something up.

On that note, is there any reason why you can't stick a Smart Firing Platform on a weapon in a weapon mount?

Wakshaani

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« Reply #355 on: <03-03-16/1004:43> »
You could, but A) the Pilot can already fire it and B) it'd take up more space. Probably +2 to how much space is used. Still, it'd be handy if your vehicle only had a Pilot of 1 or 2, so that you could have a dedicated auto-shooting mount doing its own thing.

thePrimarch

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« Reply #356 on: <03-03-16/1116:05> »
You could, but A) the Pilot can already fire it and B) it'd take up more space. Probably +2 to how much space is used. Still, it'd be handy if your vehicle only had a Pilot of 1 or 2, so that you could have a dedicated auto-shooting mount doing its own thing.

It would certainly help vehicles with multiple weapons, and that increase in space is a pretty fair trade for what's effectively a cheap-but-restrictive Ares Sentry V knockoff. Thanks!

Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #357 on: <03-04-16/1047:03> »
There's no word on any errata after nearly 3 months...

Try since Street Grimorie was erratad.

Partially, they still didn't cover everything that needed to be addressed, if memory serves me correctly.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

ScytheKnight

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« Reply #358 on: <03-04-16/1746:02> »
There's no word on any errata after nearly 3 months...

Try since Street Grimorie was erratad.

Partially, they still didn't cover everything that needed to be addressed, if memory serves me correctly.

My point was that was the last anyone heard of official errata... after that release it's just been a Cone of Silence.
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Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #359 on: <03-07-16/1422:03> »
True, very true.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.