[ScytheKnight]

I think at most I would look at using mod slots to convert X Armor points to Hardened Armor. This would give a choise of either increasing the ammount of armor, or improving the effectiveness if the armor.

[thePrimarch]

To show this impact, let's do a demonstrative example 

An upgraded Ares Roadmaster (body 18, armor 27) getting hit by a 28 DV attack soaks on average (18+27) / 3 and takes 13 boxes of damage.

A normal metahuman (body 3) in heavy mil-spec battle-armor (+helmet) (armor 23) soaks 23 / 2 (hardened armor auto hits) + (3+23) / 3 and takes ~ 7 boxes of damage.

Of course these numbers are absurdly high anyway, so the impact on actual play is limited.

Honestly, that's what I've been thinking. A 28 DV hit is actually fairly hard to come by (save by rockets, LMGs and HMGs, and other things that it would make sense would damage vehicles); as is milspec armor in general. The upgraded Roadmaster is not (Roadmasters are easy to get), but honestly finding ways to handle a heavily armored Roadmaster should be a decent challenge anyway.

The fact that a standard metahuman in heavy milspec armor is less injured by that than an equivalent vehicle may be a bit much. I could see equal (given that this is the heaviest of milspec armor, and is practically power armor for most purposes), but not better.

I agree with you and Lucean, the easiest fix would be to treat milspec armor like vehicle armor and remove the bonus successes that Hardened Armor provides.

[Mirikon]

One should note, however, that the standard metahuman in the heavy Milspec armor is practically the same size as a troll. Also note that we haven't seen actual milspec vehicles come out yet. You're comparing elite military gear to upgraded civilian/corpsec gear. Wait until we see main battle tanks and the like before crying foul.

[jim1701]

One should note, however, that the standard metahuman in the heavy Milspec armor is practically the same size as a troll. Also note that we haven't seen actual milspec vehicles come out yet. You're comparing elite military gear to upgraded civilian/corpsec gear. Wait until we see main battle tanks and the like before crying foul.

Ok, let's see them then!   

[Wakshaani]

One should note, however, that the standard metahuman in the heavy Milspec armor is practically the same size as a troll. Also note that we haven't seen actual milspec vehicles come out yet. You're comparing elite military gear to upgraded civilian/corpsec gear. Wait until we see main battle tanks and the like before crying foul.

Ok, let's see them then!   

All in good time...

[RiggerBob]

Note that we haven't seen actual milspec vehicles come out yet. You're comparing elite military gear to upgraded civilian/corpsec gear. Wait until we see main battle tanks and the like before crying foul.

Well... we have multi-million ¥, availabilty 24+F thunderbirds. That shouldn't be so far from mil-spec...

The Gryphon is described as "one of the most lethal combat aircraft in recent years" and with a maximum of additional armor (body 24, armor 36) it still takes (slightly) more boxes of damage on average from a shot able to penetrate it's armor (37DV+) than a body 3 metahuman in heavy armor. 

The 5th edition version of Hardened Armor is a nice idea to counteract the "either miss or insta-kill" situations most of us know from fighting medium to high force spirits in 4th. But while it's a perfectly working system for lower armor ratings the ability to shrug off an anti-vehicle missile to the head is just too ridiculous, no matter what kind of power creep we see in future vehicles/weapons 

Btw... an average human in heavy mil-spec armor has the ability to soak damage comparable to a dragon. When was the last time you really used stats for a dragon instead of just using it as a plot device? 

[Mirikon]

Aircraft are ALWAYS going to be more vulnerable than other vehicles, RiggerBob. Armor increases mass, and increased mass means it takes more energy to move. That doesn't mean much on the ground or at sea, since big, heavy engines are fine there, but in the air, where you have to keep going a certain speed or you (literally) fall out of the sky, mass is very much an issue. So combat aircraft are never going to match a main battle tank for shrugging off hits. Their primary defense isn't armor, but the fact that a target moving at Mach speeds is damn near impossible to hit without expensive guidance systems on your missiles or going that fast yourself.

[Lucean]

But with Heavy Mil-Spec locking in at merely 35,000 ¥ it suggests to be quite inexpensive, considering the fact that each armor has to be custom fit for ist wearer and can't be mass produced.
So with that price tag it's hard to explain that such tech isn't already in use for security vehicles.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Yeah, Mil-Spec armor seems way too cheap considering a Pi-Tac systems, even after errata, are FAR more expensive for a piece of tech that improves communication vs a piece of tech that literally stops bullets.

Mil-Spec armor in general has some serious issues, most of which has already been mentioned. The only real drawback is that if you wear it in any kind of civilized area, the GM should by all rights be throwing everything and the kitchen sink at you.

[Wakshaani]

But with Heavy Mil-Spec locking in at merely 35,000 ¥ it suggests to be quite inexpensive, considering the fact that each armor has to be custom fit for ist wearer and can't be mass produced.
So with that price tag it's hard to explain that such tech isn't already in use for security vehicles.

Of course, vehicular armor is also a bit more "boom or bust" than the more ablative personal armor.

For instance, Hardened Armor with an AV of 15 vs a vehicle of Armor 15, giving both the armor's wearer and the vehicle a Body of 12, you'll find that the vehicular armor is generally better, as anything with a damage code of 15 or less pings off with no rolls required, while the Hardened Armor wearer can still be hurt by heavy pistols. Not *easily* mind you, but a damage code of 9 with -2 AP (A reasonable Predator with better ammo) can tink away. A stronger attack, such as a DV 12 with -3 AP, still dinks off the vehicle but is now starting to deal some damage to the armored guy.

The difference comes when you have something that can HURT the vehicle, like a DV 20 hit. Once you get past the vehicle's armor, you're doing enough that it probably flatlines.

(Which is why the older version of Hardened Armor for critters went away. It made big critters immune to everything, right up until something splattered them utterly. No nickle and dime shots there!)

[falar]

Hardened Armor is strictly better than Vehicular Armor. Hardened Armor has both the ping off if you don't beat the armor factor and the half-of-the-armor in automatic hits factor. So, literally, a pistol facing Vehicular Armor v. Hardened Armor behaves exactly the same, except the Hardened Armor gets automatic hits if the pistol manages to beat the armor threshold.

Vehicular Armor 15 vs 20 DV = 20 - (15 dice, so about 5) = 15P damage
Hardened Armor 15 vs 20 DV = 20 - 7 - (15 dice, so about 5) = 8P damage

Always choose Hardened Armor over Vehicular Armor of the same value. It's twice as good.

[Lucean]

Wakshaani, Hardened Armor also doesn't roll when the adjusted DV is too low.
So with a heavy pistol you need a good amount of net hits to force the roll.

[Wakshaani]

I'll have to double check, but I'm *failry* certain that Hardened doesn't have the 'ping' factor of vehicular armor. It did in 4th, but I know that was a big bugaboo for 5th. I think the auto-hits was put in place of that effect.

Now you have me doubting my own head. Curse you!

Where's my copy of Run n Gun...

[Herr Brackhaus]

Waakshani
Lucean and falar are right; Mil-Spec armor uses the Hardened Armor critter power rules.

Hardened mil-spec battle armor is fully enclosed and may thus take modifications that require this. It is treated as having the Hardened Armor critter power. No additional armor may be worn with military-grade battle armor (unless paid for by Essence) aside from the helmet listed below.

Hardened Armor
There’s Armor, and then there’s Armor. This is the latter. This power provides its rating in Armor, and functions just like the Armor power. It differs from the Armor power as follows.
If the modified Damage Value of an attack is less than the Hardened Armor rating (modified by AP), the attack does no damage. Don’t make a Damage Resistance test for the critter; it might not even notice the attack was made in the first place.
If the modified Damage Value of an attack is greater than the Hardened Armor rating (modified by AP), then perform a Damage Resistance test for the critter as normal. Additionally, half of the Hardened Armor rating (modified by AP, rounded up) counts as automatic extra hits on this test.

The latter bolded part is what makes Mil-Spec armor so powerful, in-line with spirits. This is also why drones and other vehicles are comparatively weaker when it comes to similar Armor Values; characters in Mil-Spec armor and Spirits get half AV as auto-hits AND roll a normal damage resistance, vehicles just roll damage resistance normally. The higher body values of vehicles (not drones) are not enough to offset this except in extremely high body situations (none come to mind except tanks, which haven't been released yet).

[Wakshaani]

And had to check, and sure enough, it's done the old way (ping) plus the auto half-hits.

Bugger.

I could have *sworn* that was changed.