Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: 忍 on <09-07-18/0026:49>
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Direct Connections
. . . Some hosts exist offline . . .
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What is the question? Stand-alone systems have existed forever.
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There was a discussion I read around here somewhere about whether or not you could hack something when it wasn't connected to the Matrix. If a host can function offline, then provided one has physical access, hacking it should be possible also. Although I think the thread came down in that direction anyway, with the relevant illegal actions being reported to the grid if the host/device connects to it again.
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Iīve seen some rumors floating around that thereīs a general errata on the way for what I like to call "Isolated Systems". These would not only include offline Hosts, but also local "Mini-Matrixes", which may be formed by a hacker and a directly connected device or a bunch of wirelessly communicating devices inside the same Faraday Cage environment.
Some earlier attempts to clarifiy things infamously denied that these kind of networks are possible at all, insisting on a very literal interpretation of the "Matrix Actions are only possible inside the Matrix" rule. However, the freelancers seem to have realized that this is pretty hard to believe. Kill Codeīs mentioning of offline hosts and the wording in some fluff text now imply (Because plainly stating it in cold print apparently wasnīt an option here ::)) that "Matrix" can refer to the big, official Matrix as well as to isolated networks formed by Devices that are in compliance with the new Matrix Protocolls.
The remaining question was how OS is handled - and the description of Offline Hosts in Kill Code now heavily imply that you donīt accumulate OS in other isolated Systems as well. An all-wired sercurity Architecture may be harder to access physically, but at the cost of having a harder time to kick you out once you managed to break in.
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There is an entire crunch section in Kill Code dedicated to the different kind of hosts that exist, some of them being connected, some not.
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Kill Codeīs mentioning of offline hosts and the wording in some fluff text now imply (Because plainly stating it in cold print apparently wasnīt an option here ::)) that "Matrix" can refer to the big, official Matrix as well as to isolated networks formed by Devices that are in compliance with the new Matrix Protocolls.
To what fluff are you referring to?
My read through of the Matrix 101 section of Kill Code made it pretty clear that the Matrix was more Highlander (there can be only one) and less Lord of the Rings (one Matrix to rule them all). I saw nothing that supported the "mini-Matrixes" concept.
Combine that with a reiteration of the rule "Matrix actions are only available in the Matrix," (Kill Code, page 34, Matrix Actions sidebar) and the intent (perhaps unintentionally) is that there is only one Matrix, and if a hacker isn't connected to that, they can't hack.
Right now, mini-Matrixes appears to be firmly in the House Rules category.
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Kill Codeīs mentioning of offline hosts and the wording in some fluff text now imply (Because plainly stating it in cold print apparently wasnīt an option here ::)) that "Matrix" can refer to the big, official Matrix as well as to isolated networks formed by Devices that are in compliance with the new Matrix Protocolls.
To what fluff are you referring to?
My read through of the Matrix 101 section of Kill Code made it pretty clear that the Matrix was more Highlander (there can be only one) and less Lord of the Rings (one Matrix to rule them all). I saw nothing that supported the "mini-Matrixes" concept.
Combine that with a reiteration of the rule "Matrix actions are only available in the Matrix," (Kill Code, page 34, Matrix Actions sidebar) and the intent (perhaps unintentionally) is that there is only one Matrix, and if a hacker isn't connected to that, they can't hack.
Right now, mini-Matrixes appears to be firmly in the House Rules category.
You'll want to check out the Jammers and GOD thread, particularly this post (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=27941.msg505181#msg505181).
Granted that's the voice of the SRM Developer, but it's the word from the errata team (not just for SRM).
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Should an Errata that completely contradicts everything about the Matirx in Shadowrun 5e ever come out before we are firmly in Shadowrun 6e, I would relish it.
I hate the idea that people can't even Edit File on their own device without a connection to the Matrix.
I'm not holding my breath, as I don't expect anything official for four or more years.
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Let baseline logic overwhelm slavish devotion to a hint of a suggestion. 'Matrix actions are only available in the Matrix' is like 'Astral actions are only available in the Astral' -- clearly meant more as a 'you can only do this if you're in this section of the universe', meaning 'you can't perform a Matrix action if you're in Astral space or exclusively the meat world, i.e. you can't do it if you're not jacked in', NOT as 'if it's not part of the worldwide network you can't do it'.
Because some people need it spelled out in the rules not only that you can't go scuba diving in a quarter-inch puddle, but that water is wet.
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i.e. you can't do it if you're not jacked in', NOT as 'if it's not part of the worldwide network you can't do it'.
There are several problems here.
- First, to continue your Astral analogy, there is no "sub-Astral," or "mini-Astral" pockets. That would support the idea that there is only One Matrix, and if a hacker isn't connected to it, they can't hack.
- Second, there is no distinction in Shadowrun 5e (that I have found) that there is any differentiation between being "jacked-in," and "on the Matrix." They are synonymous.
- Finally, the 5e product spectrum is full of references to the Matrix as a singular entity. The worldwide telecommunications network is the one, true Matrix. There are no others.
So, there isn't anything in 5e that supports anything less than Matrix Actions can only be performed when connected to the telecommunications grid, the Matrix.
Anything else, is trying to push previous editions into 5e. No matter how much better it may make 5e, it isn't fitting to require everyone to possess those previous editions to get the "correct" interpretation of what the Matrix is in 5e.
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i.e. you can't do it if you're not jacked in', NOT as 'if it's not part of the worldwide network you can't do it'.
There are several problems here.
- First, to continue your Astral analogy, there is no "sub-Astral," or "mini-Astral" pockets. That would support the idea that there is only One Matrix, and if a hacker isn't connected to it, they can't hack.
Actually yes there is> They are called Meta-planes, and they are almost limitless. Beyond the elemental planes that everyone knows, there is also the insect plane (where insect spirits come from) and the negative plane(?) that the Shedim inhabit.
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Now, here's the thing: either you agree or you don't.
Honestly, I can't persuade you (even though I'll try), but you either blink, look at the way computers work today, and realize that 'hey, you can isolate a computer system!', or else you can decide that somewhere in 2065-2070 computers simply started working entirely different than the way we know them to work today -- that they're no longer bound by computer logic and code, but instead ruled by rules of connectivity that state that in order for a computer system / host to work like a computer system / host, they must be connected to the Source.
Simply put, that flat out ain't how it is, but look, at your game, you can run it however you want. Me, I'm sticking to simple obvious logic.
i.e. you can't do it if you're not jacked in', NOT as 'if it's not part of the worldwide network you can't do it'.
There are several problems here.
Mostly only because you're imagining them, but let's keep going.
- First, to continue your Astral analogy, there is no "sub-Astral," or "mini-Astral" pockets. That would support the idea that there is only One Matrix, and if a hacker isn't connected to it, they can't hack.
Nor are there 'sub-reality' or 'mini-reality' pockets, unless you consider different continents, islands, planets, whatever. It's a general analogy, not a specific one, meant to draw your attention not to 'the differences in each', but to states of being and perception. Being a pedant got you into this; being a pedant is what's gonna keep you there. Try not to be a pedant.
- Second, there is no distinction in Shadowrun 5e (that I have found) that there is any differentiation between being "jacked-in," and "on the Matrix." They are synonymous.
Because in general there doesn't need to be; most networks/hosts need to be accessed from other physical locations in the world, which means via the Matrix, and so they are considered 'on the Matrix', no matter the barriers and such.
On the other hand, there are definite difference to being 'jacked in' (aka 'being in virtual reality' (VR)) and 'being in augmented reality' (AR). Are you trying to argue that being 'only' in AR is not being on the Matrix? Because there's a whole storm right around the corner for ya if that's what you're gonna argue, and I ain't the one what's gonna be bringing it.
- Finally, the 5e product spectrum is full of references to the Matrix as a singular entity. The worldwide telecommunications network is the one, true Matrix. There are no others.
Sure. And we speak of the Internet in exactly the same way, even though there are clearly hosts and networks that are not connected to it.
So, there isn't anything in 5e that supports anything less than Matrix Actions can only be performed when connected to the telecommunications grid, the Matrix.
Anything else, is trying to push previous editions into 5e. No matter how much better it may make 5e, it isn't fitting to require everyone to possess those previous editions to get the "correct" interpretation of what the Matrix is in 5e.
No, sorry; what this boils down to is an insistence on taking a casual turn of phrase and turning it into a Must Exist This Way hill to die upon. This isn't me, or anyone else, pushing previous editions into 5e, any more that previous editions continued to parallel the at-the-time understanding of computers; this is viewing it with pretty much the simplest understanding of computer network architecture, past and present. 'If you don't set it up to connect, it don't connect. And if its default is to connect, you can probably turn that off.' Never mind that pretty much every technological object in SR5 is set up to connect to the Matrix; you can still turn that part off.
Every computer except for throwbacks carries the result of the Silicon Glen Matrix 2.0 meeting, because those are the protocols that were decided and agreed upon by literally every major computer manufacture and coding company in existence at the time. Are there people who code 'other stuff'? Yeah, probably, but if you don't write your code to be able to handshake with the big boys, you ain't goin' nowhere. Which means that pretty much all code is going to be written to work on the Matrix even if the system it's on isn't connected, because unless the people who run the site are incredibly paranoid and have thrown a few hundred thousand dollars into having their geeks writing a totally custom OS whose code not only doesn't handshake with the Matrix but cannot run on the vast majority of the rest of their own machines, then they are running code that complies with UMS 2.1 standards.
Period.
And that means that the code the decker's slinging is gonna work on that 'offline host', that those seperated computers are going to form their own 'mini-Matrix' (which when you get down to it really is just 'any computer running UMS 2.1'), and that thus you can use Matrix actions when you're 'on the Matrix'. Not because it's part of the global Matrix, but because you're connected to a computer that shares a baseline standard of functionality and interactivity. Which is what aaaaall those computers that make up 'the Matrix' share.
You can't use a Matrix action on a spirit; you can't use a Matrix action on a tree, or the bear climbing down that tree to rip your head off. You can't use a Matrix action on back-to-nature granola-munching elves who hug those trees and detest your technology-using ways; you can't use Matrix actions on these things because these things have no computer functionality, and you can't be connected electronically to them.
Like I said, I really can't persuade you, and god knows if this doesn't do it, you won't be. But please keep it in your home game.
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I've found out that in order to enjoy Shadowrun 5's Matrix and the 5th Edition in general, it is best to always think from the perspective of the freelancer who wrote a certain chapter and consider how they would have liked that rule/fluff piece to work.
It does not matter how it would "make sense" in the grand scheme of things or how "it has always been", but how this particular part of the system or rule is supposed to work in this instance.
So... RAI, in essence. In case of your (being based in Europe) organized play - that certainly is a problem. But... well. Just wing it. That's how the writers do it, too. ^^
I have accepted that the matrix is not running on a Sci/fi equivalent of our tech. The foundation ( ;D , hah!) of the new matrix is pretty much magic, that how I play it. And it kinda helps to play it analogue to the astral space.
In case of offline hosts (or a Rigger jacking in to an offline vehicle) - well, now you can. Because that is how it is, now. You want to "Edit Files" on an offline CommLink? Well, sure you can, why shouldn't you? Because it's in the rules (and CommLinks and Decks apparently run on cloud systems, but also kinda don't)? Well, ignore that, you can.
You simply can, because the Matrix (and friendship) is magic.
We won't get consistent rules/a world any more, because that is not how the books are written (any more). Each book is pieced together from the collected works of dozens of authors that rarely (have the chance to) talk to each other - because they are spread all over the world/the US. And because there's no one who keeps them in check or communicates how his/her vision of Shadowrun (and it's rules) should work, each books adds to or contradicts previous works. Part of the freelancers of 5th Ed. would like SR to be more like an indie storyteller system, other parts would like to keep it pure - with hard, clean rules for everything. Those parts don't mix well. But that's how it is, now.
Listening to the various podcasts out there and hearing the thoughts and ideas of various freelancers, that's how they DM their games, as well. If you don't like something or find things too complicated with this ruleset, well, don't use it. Consequences, be damned.
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etc.
I would love to know what your source material for this is. Might be on the boards (I don't scour them), might be some podcast, but I'd still prefer to read / hear it for myself. Because the source (and facts) matter.
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@Ouroboros - The quotation function ate the quote, so I'm not quite sure which part you'd like to have sources for :-) I'll try to give you places to look for every issue:
1. - Different rules by different writers
The rules are written by a team of freelancers; there's a writers list in the beginning of each book. :-)
A number of rules are written specifically with organized play in mind (the In debt quality comes to mind, where there are very "mechanical" disadvantages). Others are very vaguely phrased, giving the GM lots of wriggle room (the blank slate quality, valid aspects of a matrix perception...). The best example is the WiFi Bonus. It was here on the forum somewhere.
The writer originally intended it as a PAN bonus, it ended up as an online bonus. Or take the repair rules: We have... three different versions, now, I believe. The new Overdrive Power is another great example.
It's SUPPOSED to enable your rule-of-cool Technomancer to have a red-hot-glowing cyberarm to tear off the arms of a humanoid drone or push your wired reflexes to the brink - not enable him to have only rating 6 skills via a backdoor :D
2. - The Matrix is magic - That's in Kill Code fluff, and I don't wanna spoil it for players.
3. - Contradicting rules There are a few examples, here's the most recent: Matrix actions can only happen on the matrix. But offline hosts that pre-date the current Matrix exist as well. And it's great that they do, because they validate older adventures (the final host in Splintered State, f.e.). But it still causes confusion, if you read the rules as they are.
3. - Writers and play styles Sadly I don't keep close track of the podcast content, so I can't give a verbatum source.
Listen to a few of episodes of the Arcology Podcast or the old Critical Glitch Cast, when a writer, writers or the line developer are on as guests. They sometimes explain how a certain rule came to be and how they'd prefer to have SR be more like -this- or that style of play. Or that they hadn't read a certain book that features elements of what they have just also written about.
And I don't blame them! In fact, I like them putting their spin on things. And if they don't get (time and) access to all the book, one can't expect them to know every other rule there is.
And yet they too keep playing the game, like we all do!
Despite the glaring problems that would actually make it kinda tricky -> if you don't ignore them or make do in some way. It's not like they (or the line developer) have the secret, hidden knowledge about how certains aspects of Shadowrun are to be understood. They don't know either. 8)
Once in a while on here, you can read about writers not hearing any feedback on their work before a book is published (in the Kill Code Errata thread, for example), and that sucks. For them, and for us.
Or they are getting flak for how a certain rule is intended vs written - let's take the new hacking without marks action. OF COURSE the Edge Face with a Meta Link is not supposed to keep trying to fire the assault rifle of that guardsmen over there. Deckers are supposed to use that action to speed up the damn hacking for marks...
"Errors" like that happen, because they all have their own version of Shadowrun they are taking for granted. And because they don't talk to each other. ;-)
But it ends up in the rules this way.
And I don't mind, anymore. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy SR, very much so indeed! And I've decided that in order to do so, it's not worth to fuzz over RAI - because I don't believe there is one, or ever has been. Hence the birth of this thread or the hunderts of Errata entries on the forum. Because there are as many RAI as there are writers working on a specific new release. :)
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It didn't eat it; I didn't quote anything because it's a long list.
As for the rest ... uh-huh. At some point you should have one of us explain to you the difference between 'I'd prefer ...' and 'because I'm writing for SR, I have to ...' We freelancers don't ignore the past; we can't, that's part of the canon. And 'not talking to each other' ... there's an entire forum dedicated just to that. It's just that the person with the most/best knowledge on a specific topic may not get the chance to chime in because of other Reasons (like, you know, having a life) before something goes to print.
*shrugs* Whatever; believe what you like, interpret how you like. Again, doesn't mean you're right over all games, it just means that you can play it how you want in your game. So have fun!
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I think people get caught up in the concept of something being in the cloud, and therefore stored online and not accessible offline. Does "The Matrix" provide the functionality that hosts use to be hosts? Or does it define the rules by which the host must live to be connected to it? Probably the latter based on what I'm seeing here.
Try to think more like distributed computing, which is what is on the other side of that pretty cloud picture. Every host in the system likely contributes to the functionality of The Matrix. Each host would be capable of providing the functions required for The Matrix to work, but only those that are connected to it would do so. An offline host could provide that same functionality within its locally connected "network," but couldn't report to GOD until connected to The Matrix.
For anybody who understands the internal electronics and software of computers, this concept makes more sense than having everything work like a Terminal Services version of Windows. The Matrix might be magic, but I'm not sure even magic could handle the processing power required to do the lone work of handling all matrix traffic for the whole world. If it had to handle the processing for all the hosts also, forget about it. If that were the case then whoever owns the hosts would have to be paying whoever runs The Matrix for all that processing time.
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Here's how I look at it (speaking as someone with only limited understanding of how computers and networks actually function in the real world today):
The megacorps began laying the groundwork for the wireless Matrix initiative before the Second Crash. Practically every device manufactured in the last 20 years (20602080) not just commlinks and accessories, mind, but toasters, refrigerators, coffee-makers, microwaves, light fixtures, electrical outlets, vending machines, cameras, maglocks, vehicles, drones, weapons, toys everything includes a cheap processor, transceiver, and abundant memory. All of these things connect in a giant mesh network that forms the fabric of the modern wireless Matrix. Modern Hosts are built on this foundation. They don't exist in a single location; their content is distributed across the fabric of the Matrix.
All devices are still capable of performing their core functions internally, however, even when isolated and disconnected from the Matrix by disabled/deactivated transceivers, signal noise, active jamming, or a Faraday cage. Your toaster will still make toast, your refrigerator still keeps the soymilk cold, your maglock still holds the door shut. Likewise, computing devices like a commlink or deck can still run software and store data without an active Matrix connection.
Legacy host systems still exist and interact with the Matrix, and paranoid organizations can still create new, hardwired, hardware-based hosts that operate independently for security reasons (see "Non-Foundation Hosts," Kill Code p.4546). These standalone systems can and do function normally offline, but hackers can still plug into them with a direct connection and do their thing.
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Here's how I look at it (speaking as someone with only limited understanding of how computers and networks actually function in the real world today):
The megacorps began laying the groundwork for the wireless Matrix initiative before the Second Crash. Practically every device manufactured in the last 20 years (20602080) not just commlinks and accessories, mind, but toasters, refrigerators, coffee-makers, microwaves, light fixtures, electrical outlets, vending machines, cameras, maglocks, vehicles, drones, weapons, toys everything includes a cheap processor, transceiver, and abundant memory. All of these things connect in a giant mesh network that forms the fabric of the modern wireless Matrix. Modern Hosts are built on this foundation. They don't exist in a single location; their content is distributed across the fabric of the Matrix.
All devices are still capable of performing their core functions internally, however, even when isolated and disconnected from the Matrix by disabled/deactivated transceivers, signal noise, active jamming, or a Faraday cage. Your toaster will still make toast, your refrigerator still keeps the soymilk cold, your maglock still holds the door shut. Likewise, computing devices like a commlink or deck can still run software and store data without an active Matrix connection.
Legacy host systems still exist and interact with the Matrix, and paranoid organizations can still create new, hardwired, hardware-based hosts that operate independently for security reasons (see "Non-Foundation Hosts," Kill Code p.4546). These standalone systems can and do function normally offline, but hackers can still plug into them with a direct connection and do their thing.
I think thatīs pretty much how it works, at least at most tables. The remaining question: Do Hackers, or others trying to interface with the device or host, still need a connection to the Matrix to "do stuff" (because, dunno, the ressources to hack things are still partially in the Matrix Cloud? ???) or not?
Iīm heavily favouring the latter here, but itīs still unclear if thatīs RAI.
My personal take would be like this:
- You can be out in the Matrix or in a Matrix. The latter refers to a bunch of interconnected devices, hosts and users that, as a whole, are shut off from the Matrix. That could be the case because everything is wired or because the whole ensamble is trapped in the same Farady Cage. Think of it as a kind of Mini-Matrix. Itīs usually not under GODs protection, so no OS here.
- However, the Matrix Protocolls are kinda... grabby. If a member of a "Mini-Matrix" regains contact to the Matrix (f.i. because you turn your wireless on or manage to penetrate the Faraday Cage), the whole ensemble comes back online as well.
- Example 1: You try to hack a throwback device through a direct connection. You can decide to leave your wireless off to not expose yourself to GOD. If you donīt, both you and the device will be accessible from the Matrix for everyone else. Same for hacking an offline host: If you decide to go in with active wireless, you can act as a backdoor for other remote hacking attempts.
- Example 2: You try to hack a wireless active device with a direct connection. The second you plug yourself in, you become logged in on the Matrix as well, thus prone to GODs surveillance and wireless detection. By keeping the wireless on, the owner of the device essentially traded physical security for digital security.
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Guys, Jayde Moon clarified the errata team's opinion on this:
Two commlinks cut off from The Matrix but connected to each other via a Data Cable compose A Matrix. And that 'mini Matrix' satisfies the requirement of 'being on the matrix' to accomplish Matrix Actions.
I linked his statements back on the first page.
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Guys, Jayde Moon clarified the errata team's opinion on this
And all that is is one person's opinion.
The Errata Team doesn't make any decisions. It is one of the reasons it takes so long to get the Errata out.
After the Team formulates their suggestion, it gets passed on to... I think Patrick Goodman referred to it as the "Errata Committee" for a vote on if it becomes official or not.
Until that time, everything is just House Rules.
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Actually, it'd be multiple person's opinions, people with in-depth knowledge of both RAW and RAI, and an opinion that has a good probability of said opinion becoming official canon.
Don't try to pass that sort of thing off as 'meh, nothin' special'; there's importance there.
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If Jayde Moon said it, that's as good as official imo.
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Even if all that were true, Ouroboros, it still doesn't make it official, yet.
Hell, even if you are right, and RAI is that Persona Devices function fully without a connection to the Matrix (more on that little hiccup in a moment), that means the authors did a piss-poor job of conveying it. I mean they had at least three chances to do so: Core, Data Trails, and Kill Code.
I know, because I've been looking for anything to support the idea ever since Xenon pointed out to me that RAW doesn't support how I want tech to work in Shadowrun.
Now, let me play devil's advocate against my own wishes for a moment.
First, there is a potential "cheat" available if Persona Devices function normally without a connection to the Matrix. No OS score. Jayde Moon presented the crazy idea of the OS being stored on the device, meaning the hackers who use them have complete control over their own OS's, but that can't be the intent. Just as being able to turn Wireless Off to not generate OS while directly connected to another device can't be the real intent.
Next, thanks to Kill Code, we know that Persona Data is stored / contained / exists in the Foundation. That makes it highly unlikely that a Persona Device can even form a Persona without a connection to the Matrix. No Matrix, no Foundation, no data to form said Persona. Quotes incoming:
This means that once a user creates a Matrix identity for the first time, their persona is crafted from the building blocks of the Matrixs Foundation, in somewhat the same fashion as a host. As a result, personas are impossible to hack without access to the Foundation.
A persona is logged in whenever the user is online with a device capable of running a persona. Global positioning data, incredibly advanced passkeys, biorhythm data, and past Matrix history all combine to virtually eliminate false logins.
Now, to be fair, it isn't exactly clear if Matrix Actions can only be performed by Personas. I assume they are restricted that way, but that is just an assumption on my part unless someone can provide a quote that I missed.
Since you can only be "logged in" while online, and so far everyone equates forming a Persona = logged in, that means no Matrix connection, no Persona.
If that wasn't enough, there is a symmetry in the game system. There is the Astral realm, with the Metaplanes. There is the Matrix, and the Resonance Realms. A character can only cast spells / summon spirits when they have a "connection" to the Astral (no Magic-y things in space, for example). A hacker can only do Matrix Actions in the Matrix Realm, the telecommunications grid.
If that isn't enough for you to admit you just might be wrong with your claim of in-depth knowledge of RAW and RAI for the Matrix, let's go to your "real world" argument.
For the last decade, or more, tech producers - mostly software, admittedly - have been striving to make everything "cloud only." (Autodesk, Google, Microsoft, etc.) The only time they walk that back is when there is sufficient customer pushback. Frankly, each time the producers try, the amount of pushback gets smaller and smaller.
It is more than just within the realm of possibility that in 50, 60 years time the (mega) corps finally win and require Matrix connection for devices to work, it is actually likely - as much as I hate to admit it.
If anyone has any quotes to make things work the way I want them too, I welcome the input.
Given how hard forum goers try to prove me wrong, I think they would have surfaced by now, though.
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If that Errata for "Mini-Matrices" really comes to pass, it would surely be a huge relief on my side. After all, that question really affects the core of Matrix content in 5Ed. So, to the Errata Team (blessed be upon you): Please donīt not rush over this with a simple one-sentence statement and keep the unavoidable follow-up-questions in mind:
- What about Personas, see ISPīs argument above?
- What about two devices trying to wirelessly connect while in the same Faraday Cage?
- What about OS? Iīm not sure if OS something actively generated by GOD or if it is a feature of the new Matrix Protocols (the "ripples in the pond"-analogy) that GOD uses to find illegal activity. In the latter case, you might still accumulate OS in a "Mini-Matrix".
- Where can Files be stored? On the Matrix, on a Device or both? Whatīs the role of the Cloudless Program in Data Trails here?
- What happens if a member of a "Mini-Matrix" becomes connected to the actual Matrix again? (As I said above: Iīm a strong proponent for the whole ensemble coming back online as well - for both fluff and gameplay reasons.)
And ISP is right here: There really has been a lot pointing in the "Cloud-only"-direction in RAW. You can also add that weird Cloudless Program from Data Trails to this list. The official addition of offline hosts (I believe there was an offline host featured in a Mission before, but I canīt remember which...) is one of the rare official indicators that the Matrix is only 90% cloudy and not 100%. And despite many tables already houseruling it that way, it really stinks that this is not cleared up after five years and two supplements. This is not some fringe issue, this is core gameplay.
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This means that once a user creates a Matrix identity for the first time, their persona is crafted from the building blocks of the Matrixs Foundation, in somewhat the same fashion as a host. As a result, personas are impossible to hack without access to the Foundation.
A persona is logged in whenever the user is online with a device capable of running a persona. Global positioning data, incredibly advanced passkeys, biorhythm data, and past Matrix history all combine to virtually eliminate false logins.
So you can't create a persona without a connection to The Matrix. You also can't hack (i.e. change) a persona without access to the Foundation (The Matrix). And they even go as far as to say you are logged in whenever the user is online with a device capable of running a persona. The first two parts don't specifically support your point, but the third one makes it look like they do.
However, the third statement contradicts the existence of offline hosts. They literally can't exist if being offline leaves them incapable of having matrix actions performed within them. No Edit File for the guy working on spreadsheets, no Matrix Perception for looking around. No anything, because an Offline Host by this definition would be a lump of useless silicon. If you can't use Attack/Sleaze actions on it then you can't use Data Processing actions on it either.
I think personas aren't unlike the 3rd party authenticators of our time. You have to be able to connect to Google/Facebook to authenticate, but then your account is cached until there is another reason to authenticate it. Did you relaunch an app? You have to authenticate again to use it. What this would mean is that a Decker/TM who rebooted their Deck/Living-Persona wouldn't be able to log back if they were in a Faraday cage at the time. But if they were logged in and then put in the cage, they could hack directly-connected things within the cage.
As far as OS score goes, the idea presented elsewhere makes sense. All actions are logged to some degree, Attack/Sleaze related ones surely are. When a host/device re-acquires a connection to the Matrix, those logged actions would then be seen by The Matrix. If you had rebooted your deck by then you might have nothing to worry about.
As far as how this affects the cheesing of ownership changes. I think the ownership can't change until the device is reconnected to The Matrix. If you had failures during that process that you would have been reported for, then it reports them on reconnect, but the ownership still changes since you succeeded. I need to re-read how that process works to be sure how it would affect things like reporting your location and so forth, but conceptually it works.
As much as the RAW may support your vision of how this should be working, the RAW is conflicted in places also. Until we get some kind of errata or official ruling on it, the default should be to assume that it works in a way that wouldn't effectively brick technology that we know exists in game and supposedly works. RAI is certainly not to break offline hosts just to ensure nobody has an easier time stealing ownership of something.
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Goodness folks, I think you guys way, way over thinking this.
Look, take a deep breath, the rules and the system aren't perfect. Change will happen. If the writers want offline nodes we will get offline nodes. From the stand point of play this 99.9% irrelevant.
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I'm with Marcus, and would like to point towards my first post in this thread.
It makes it easier to just accept the fact that offline hosts exist. The Persona necessary to enter it is formed with data the Resonance Realms (or whatever) that still touch the magical fringes of the offline host as well.
Listening to the latest episode of the Arcology Podcast has been rather enlightening as well; if you don't want to listen in, here's the short version:
The Freelancers who collaborated on Kill Code set out to fix the hot mess that is/were the Matrix rules and fluff in 5th - because they were annoyed by it, as well. Within the limits given, they've managed to come up with a hot fix that makes it cool(-ish) to play a Hacker again. They've succeeded, even if they had to come up with a "The Matrix is Magic" solution. A solution I applaud you guys for! And various new matrix actions that assume (of course) that a rigger/decker/techno would be performing them - not the face without the slightest bit of Matrix knowledge.
Funny enough, the episode pretty much confirms my assumption (and maybe Ouroboros takes note) that the Rules-As-Written, the Rules-As-Intended (and the fluff) we ended up with, just somehow -happend- and everyone just kinda interpreted them to the best of their respective knowledge. :)
Take Noise, for example, or the Grid Hopping stuff, no one used.
It's also rather funny that apparently there wasn't a big plan behind the hows and whys of the 5th Ed Matrix. Or that they flew out window at some point when the writers of Kill Code decided: "Eeh, we can't explain all this. Let's make it magic."
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If Jayde Moon said it, that's as good as official imo.
While I appreciate the support, my word is only 'law' insofar as Missions games go,and sometimes Missions rules will be different from what folks should expect at hone games. That's my disclaimer.
That said, in this case, I believe the Missions' interpretation matches the RAI for general play which is corroborated by pretty much all of the creators from the top down.
I understand ISPs points about RAW, but sometimes it's worded a certain way because that's the easiest way to explain it to the general reader.
For those afflicted with a more IF; THEN; ELSE mindset, it is understandably frustrating.
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Hasn't there been "offline nodes" since pretty much day one?
The first pre-written mission Splintered States features several examples.
***SPOILERS***
The initial commlink with its hidden secondary "sub-commlink" It isn't noticeable except through an extensive search of the system itself. It isn't broadcasting its own signal.
And in the epilogue mission there is a hidden host within the building that is only accessible through direct connection. That whole mission is about retrieving off-line data...
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And I remember that this caused quite a lot of irritated posts with questions about the how and why, and what. One of the baselines was:
"Just ignore it, this part was probably written for 4th ed., or I don't know. How did you even get the Skillwires necessary to try and use those hang gliders skillsofts and land on that roof, when we don't even have parachutes, anyways?" :)
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What does parachutes have to do with hang gliders?
Honestly, the way that "host" was presented made perfect sense given the context and supporting details. To me it just drove home the fact that hosts as a location-less entity makes sense in only limited cases.
The idea that every facility has its own host which controls the regulated functions, yet can be accessed from anywhere worldwide? There needs to be some sort of stage between individual person's comms/decks and worldwide hosts...
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I believe it was a joke reference to not having parachute or glider stats, but having the skills for a very long Kiir.