Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Rooks on <07-17-15/1250:29>
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Been thinking about the internal router in chrome flesh it says it protects stuff from being hacked using internal routing system so you can used wireless bonuses without fear of getting hacked provided you dont need to access the matrix to use said wireless bonus, so what does that actually entail? can you use it on non implanted devices too?
major bonus is the wired reflexes/reflect enhancers not worrying about getting hacked
I imagine stuff like map softs medkits etc that need matrix access to use the wireless bonus cant be protected but what about stuff like visual/audio enhancements on headphones or glasses? or stuff that reduces the simple to free actions to activate they just the same as their augmented counterpart? anything else?
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You brought up the most important one (IMO): Wired Reflexes + Reaction Enhancers.
Off the top of my head, cyberlimb accessories and False Face. Probably cybereye/ear too.
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I can't find it...
Could anyone copy pasta the description for Internal Router?
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Using the body’s internal neural network as “wires,” the
internal router allows the user’s cybernetics to communicate
with one another as if they were wirelessly
connected and, if expanded via a datajack or similar
broadcast-enabled piece of cyberware, with the rest of
the user’s gear.
This allows the use of some wireless functionality,
such as the quick-loading function of a smartgun or
the engagement of a smuggling compartment, but not
those that require an outside network or similar function,
such as skillwire downloads.
Unfortunately, which it affects and which it doesn't are largely going to be GM calls . . .
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Thanks.
Rooks, it seems clear that it only work for augmentations connected to your internal neural network (an ocular drone that is not attached to the eye socket would have to be wireless ON even if you have an internal router).
You will not get the wireless bonus of your goggles with vision enhancement unless you turn your goggles wireless on. Only cybernetics connected to your body are connected to your internal neural network and your internal router.
I read it as if you still need to have a wireless datajack and your smartgun still need to be wireless enabled, but if you have an internal router then your cybereyes with your smartlink enhancement can be wireless OFF and you will still benefit from smartgun system wireless bonuses.
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If the non-cyber gear is connected to the Data Jack via cable I'd rule they'd get the Wireless bonus without being wireless. I gotta think that would be mostly sensors, but YMMV.
Smartguns need to draw data from the outside world sensors, windspeed, is it raining, and what not in order to work. Smartgun links are chatty little things from my reading, if they're not wireless ON, no wireless bonus dice. All IMO.
So, to Darzil's point, lotta GM calls.
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1) Internal Router let your wireless off cybernetics communicate with each other as if they were wireless connected.
2) Internal Router + Datajack let your wireless off cybernetics communicate with external wireless enabled devices as if they were wireless connected.
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I'm actually still wondering a bit of what the point of it is.
Cause like.. Okay, you've got the ability to run them through something else.. But what exactly does that mean? How is it any different in the end than running your implants in a Pan?
Would you be able to run them through a commlink implant at least?
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I'm actually still wondering a bit of what the point of it is.
Cause like.. Okay, you've got the ability to run them through something else.. But what exactly does that mean? How is it any different in the end than running your implants in a Pan?
Would you be able to run them through a commlink implant at least?
The point is to get wireless bonuses without being wireless enabled as long as you don't need any outside information to get it... meaning Reaction Enhancers/Wired Reflexes, lots of Actions become 1 step faster, full implanted Biomoniter information but no connection to your Medical Provider, things like that. An implanted Commlink will grant you access to gear interactions just like a wireless enabled Datajack would.
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Using the body’s internal neural network as “wires,” the
internal router allows the user’s cybernetics to communicate
with one another as if they were wirelessly
connected and, if expanded via a datajack or similar
broadcast-enabled piece of cyberware, with the rest of
the user’s gear.
So I guess if it doesnt need matrix access you can synch your gear to it
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From my understanding of it, if it doesn't need to download or interact with anything in the Matrix itself (i.e. only needs things that are part of your PAN or cybernetics), then with a datajack (or implanted commlink/deck/Control Rig) you can get the wireless bonuses of your gear that's part of your PAN. Personally I figure it means that significant amounts of your gear for your PAN is going to become sensors so that you don't need the Matrix to figure out windspeeds (for a smartgun for example). I'm really interested in finding out how this would function with a PI-Tac.
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So if its a thing that has a wireless bonus that makes no flippen sense why its there, Say for example a modular arm connector, you could just have this internal router and get the wireless bonus even when its not broadcasting through the matrix?
Or would you need a Datajack/Commlink to be the wireless access point?
The reason I'm confused, Is I still don't see how forcing someone to hack your implanted commlink is that much different than forcing them to hack the implanted com-link stats for the wireless thing that is on your pan. I've got a feeling that the Internal router is one of those Gotta have or Its absolutely garbage items that any cybersam would/wouldn't want to have. Only reason I see sams not taking it if its really really good is cause its a 0.7 essence item.
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So if its a thing that has a wireless bonus that makes no flippen sense why its there, Say for example a modular arm connector, you could just have this internal router and get the wireless bonus even when its not broadcasting through the matrix?
Or would you need a Datajack/Commlink to be the wireless access point?
The reason I'm confused, Is I still don't see how forcing someone to hack your implanted commlink is that much different than forcing them to hack the implanted com-link stats for the wireless thing that is on your pan. I've got a feeling that the Internal router is one of those Gotta have or Its absolutely garbage items that any cybersam would/wouldn't want to have. Only reason I see sams not taking it if its really really good is cause its a 0.7 essence item.
CAN NOT HACK THINGS THAT ARE GETTING A WIRELESS BONUS! So your Wired Reflexes/Reaction Enhancers are safe, you can have your Biomoniter tell you exact status to your PAN, you can move a much of Actions down 1 level (Complex to Simple or Simple to Free), lots of things. It's definitely kinda niche augmentation but those that use it can get a lot of benefits from it... others will get little to no benefit from it.
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1) You can run your internal augmentations wireless off and still get wireless bonus.
- example: reaction enhancers and wired reflexes can give you more than 4 reaction without being wireless on (without an internal router you would have your reaction enhancers and wired reflexes to communicate directly with each other via wireless... leaving both your reaction enhancers and wired reflexes open for hacking)
2) If you want your (now wireless off) augmentation to still talk with a wireless enabled external device then you need a wireless enabled datajack (or an internal commlink or cyberdeck).
- example: smartgun system now give you wireless bonuses without your smartlink being wireless on (since you have an internal router your eyes (with your smartlink installment) can now communicate with your external wireless smartgun device via your datajack and your internal router - without an internal router you would have your eyes and your gun to communicate directly with each other via wireless... leaving your eyes open for hacking).
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Ah, I see. So its pretty much a must have Item, if you can fit its massive essence cost.
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1) Instead of slaving your reaction enhancers and wired reflexes to your commlink you now run them wireless off.
2) Instead of slaving your eyes, datajack and smartgun to your commlink you now run your eyes wireless off and just slave your datajack and smartgun to your commlink. As long as your datajack and your smartgun are not bricked your smartgun system will benefit from wireless bonuses.
- You can also benefit from the camera on your smartgun and the +2 accuracy bonus by turning your smartgun (and datajack) wireless off and connect a wire between your gun and your datajack (but you don't get wireless bonuses like compensating for wind, both bonuses when you take aim, positive dice pool modifier when shooting, eject clip and change firing mode as free action this way).
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Ah, I see. So its pretty much a must have Item, if you can fit its massive essence cost.
There are plenty of other things that probably most characters would be better off using to mitigate their exposure. It takes a pretty heavily cybered character to get a real benefit from this & they are going to be constrained by the Essence cost. If it was .2 or .3 than yes this becomes a much more common & must have augmentation. A Commlink running a Wrapper Program, on the Public Grid, while Running Silent is enough for the vast majority of characters instead of this. Rebooting your PAN is not an issue unless you are the Decker... so getting Bricked is highly unlikely. Get an Agent to scan for Marks every turn & flip the switch if it sees one.
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How do you run both wrapper and agent on a commlink...?
(also, both your and your agent would get a negative dice pool modifier of 4 dice on matrix actions such as matrix perception, change icon, matrix search, edit file etc...)
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Better hope your Agent rolls high! The false positive glitches could be a nightmare!
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What do you mean by "both bonuses when you take aim"?
Also, connecting a smartgun to your datajack would allow you to eject a clip and change firing mode with free action, you have a dni link to the weapon.
- You can also benefit from the camera on your smartgun and the +2 accuracy bonus by turning your smartgun (and datajack) wireless off and connect a wire between your gun and your datajack (but you don't get wireless bonuses like compensating for wind, both bonuses when you take aim, positive dice pool modifier when shooting, eject clip and change firing mode as free action this way).
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What do you mean by "both bonuses when you take aim"?
SR5 p. 166 Take Aim
...Each Take Aim action applies a +1 dice pool modifier or +1 Accuracy increase to the Attack Test...
SR5 p. 178 Wireless Smartgun
...When aiming (using the Take Aim action) with a smartgun system the shooter gets both bonuses with each action of aiming.
...connecting a smartgun to your datajack would allow you to eject a clip and change firing mode with free action, you have a dni link to the weapon.
Eject clip and change firing mode as free actions are explicitly mentioned to be wireless bonuses.
SR5 p. 424 Firearms
Wireless bonus: ...If you have a DNI, you get two additional benefits. First, ejecting a clip (for weapons that have them) is a Free Action rather than a Simple Action. Second, changing fire modes (on models that have more than one) is a Free Action rather than a Simple Action.
SR5 p. 433 Smartgun System
The smartgun features are accessed either by universal access port cable to an imaging device (like glasses, goggles, or a datajack for someone with cybereyes) or by a wireless connection working in concert with direct neural interface.
Wireless bonus: ...Ejecting a clip and changing fire modes are Free Actions.
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How do you run both wrapper and agent on a commlink...?
(also, both your and your agent would get a negative dice pool modifier of 4 dice on matrix actions such as matrix perception, change icon, matrix search, edit file etc...)
The easiest way is a Program Module with Virtual Machine on it. You can also is put a Program Module with Wrapper on your main commlink & then slave a second commlink with a Program Module carrying an Agent Program. That way you can use Wrapper on your Agent as well as your gear & turn him into a cute little mouse on your shoulder. "Perceiver is specifically looking for it" gives a +3 bonus which offsets the -4 penalty nicely.
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What do you mean by "both bonuses when you take aim"?
SR5 p. 166 Take Aim
...Each Take Aim action applies a +1 dice pool modifier or +1 Accuracy increase to the Attack Test...
SR5 p. 178 Wireless Smartgun
...When aiming (using the Take Aim action) with a smartgun system the shooter gets both bonuses with each action of aiming.
...connecting a smartgun to your datajack would allow you to eject a clip and change firing mode with free action, you have a dni link to the weapon.
Eject clip and change firing mode as free actions are explicitly mentioned to be wireless bonuses.
SR5 p. 424 Firearms
Wireless bonus: ...If you have a DNI, you get two additional benefits. First, ejecting a clip (for weapons that have them) is a Free Action rather than a Simple Action. Second, changing fire modes (on models that have more than one) is a Free Action rather than a Simple Action.
SR5 p. 433 Smartgun System
The smartgun features are accessed either by universal access port cable to an imaging device (like glasses, goggles, or a datajack for someone with cybereyes) or by a wireless connection working in concert with direct neural interface.
Wireless bonus: ...Ejecting a clip and changing fire modes are Free Actions.
If you are directly connected to your gun via a datacable plugged into it and your datajack and DNI.. I don't think it would be too game breaking to allow someone to eject the clip or change fire modes via mental command as a free action.
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The easiest way is a ...
Fair enough
"Perceiver is specifically looking for it" gives a +3 bonus which offsets the -4 penalty nicely.
You are talking about a Physical Perception modifier which I am pretty sure doesn't apply to Matrix Perception.
If you are directly connected to your gun via a datacable plugged into it and your datajack and DNI.. I don't think it would be too game breaking to allow someone to eject the clip or change fire modes via mental command as a free action.
Agree - I would not argue against a house rule like that.
The authors could have made this into a basic feature of your smartgun system; kinda like the +2 accuracy or the ability to use the on board camera to shoot around corners.
But they did make it a wireless bonus - which in this case it means that you (by RAW) need to use a simple action if you connect with a wire and only get to use it as a free action if you connect to it wireless while working in concert with your DNI.
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If the non-cyber gear is connected to the Data Jack via cable I'd rule they'd get the Wireless bonus without being wireless. I gotta think that would be mostly sensors, but YMMV.
Smartguns need to draw data from the outside world sensors, windspeed, is it raining, and what not in order to work. Smartgun links are chatty little things from my reading, if they're not wireless ON, no wireless bonus dice. All IMO.
So, to Darzil's point, lotta GM calls.
The more I think about it, the more I want to call bulldrek on the smartgun thing. If they relied on drawing data from the matrix on environmental conditions, then smartlinks would be useless indoors, since the temperature, humidity, air pressure, and directional air flow are totally different from local weather data. There is literally nothing the internet can tell my gun to help me shoot someone in the chest from 12 feet away in the hallways of a burned out building in the barrens.
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except making it vulnerable to being hacked by deckers ;D
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If the non-cyber gear is connected to the Data Jack via cable I'd rule they'd get the Wireless bonus without being wireless. I gotta think that would be mostly sensors, but YMMV.
Smartguns need to draw data from the outside world sensors, windspeed, is it raining, and what not in order to work. Smartgun links are chatty little things from my reading, if they're not wireless ON, no wireless bonus dice. All IMO.
So, to Darzil's point, lotta GM calls.
The more I think about it, the more I want to call bulldrek on the smartgun thing. If they relied on drawing data from the matrix on environmental conditions, then smartlinks would be useless indoors, since the temperature, humidity, air pressure, and directional air flow are totally different from local weather data. There is literally nothing the internet can tell my gun to help me shoot someone in the chest from 12 feet away in the hallways of a burned out building in the barrens.
It is one of those things where you do just have to suspend a point or two of disbelief to keep it playable. Otherwise you will be bogged down trying to decide, would this area provide a bonus or not?
Likewise, wouldn't you think the corps would somehow lock down any devices providing this sort of data within their own territory, or at least encode it so YOUR smartgun couldn't easily access it while THEIR smartguns could?
Again you would fall into the pit of arguing code cracking and such, although if you play with this idea then a decker in the group actually could be a necessity since he could be cracking these enemy data streams to feed the party's battlenet and provide said bonuses.
But that is for more advance style play and again can get bogged down at times.
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If the non-cyber gear is connected to the Data Jack via cable I'd rule they'd get the Wireless bonus without being wireless. I gotta think that would be mostly sensors, but YMMV.
Smartguns need to draw data from the outside world sensors, windspeed, is it raining, and what not in order to work. Smartgun links are chatty little things from my reading, if they're not wireless ON, no wireless bonus dice. All IMO.
So, to Darzil's point, lotta GM calls.
Well, they had wanted Matrix to be a threat, and a reason why you'd want a good decker/Technomancer in the party, running matrix interference so you could have bonuses, while the enemy lacks them. Sadly, they forgot that in 5e, Meat and Magic can easily get about the same number of IPs if not more than that of Matrix. While Matrix actions take a full IP to do, and Meat and Magic often take less.
The more I think about it, the more I want to call bulldrek on the smartgun thing. If they relied on drawing data from the matrix on environmental conditions, then smartlinks would be useless indoors, since the temperature, humidity, air pressure, and directional air flow are totally different from local weather data. There is literally nothing the internet can tell my gun to help me shoot someone in the chest from 12 feet away in the hallways of a burned out building in the barrens.
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The more I think about it, the more I want to call bulldrek on the smartgun thing...
Your smartgun need a wireless connection to your smartlink while working in concert with your DNI so that you can react fast enough to the information the smartgun system is feeding directly into your brain. This is why you get a positive dice pool modifier if your smartgun system is wireless connected (and why you don't get a positive dice pool modifier if you use a wire from your gun to your goggles).
If they relied on drawing data from the matrix on environmental conditions, then smartlinks would be useless indoors...
SR5 p. 174-175 Wind
A light breeze might not throw off a shot, but the stronger the wind the more a shooter is going to have to compensate. Compensating for wind is tough because you can’t see it without some kind of indicator, such as blowing leaves, a flag flapping in the wind, or a coat pressed hard against the target. Wind categories are generalized and left up to the gamemaster’s discretion instead of giving hard numbers for wind speed. Wind speed can be a factor at the shooter’s position, the target’s position, and any position in between. Wind modifiers are mitigated by smartlink accessories that calculate adjustments before the shot and alleviated by tracer rounds that let the shooter see how to adjust her aim for the next shot.
You are right about one thing though;
This bonus is mostly useless indoors where there are no wind to compensate for ;)
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This bonus is mostly useless indoors where there are no wind to compensate for ;)
only if the GM has a failure of imagination. ;)
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Eject clip and change firing mode as free actions are explicitly mentioned to be wireless bonuses.
But the router allows you to get the wireless bonuses without using wireless, so thats no issue.
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It give you the wireless bonus of your internal cyberware while your chrome is still wireless off.
If you also have a wireless datajack then your internal chrome can still "wireless" connect to an external wireless device even if your internal chrome is wireless off.
Your internal router is used by your internal cyberware.
Not by your external wireless devices.
Your external firearm still need to be wireless ON if you want the wireless bonuses of your external firearm. Your wireless external firearm is not connected to your internal router (unless we are talking about an internal cyber weapon).
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Still waking up at my desk, but it seems like you could eject clips with a wire and DNI (p. 424) and remain dark.
Now that the coffee has kicked in, I realize that's a wireless DNI feature, not just a DNI feature.
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Your wireless external firearm is not connected to your internal router
If i run a cable to it trought my datajack, yes it is.
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The Internal Router allows your cybernetics to to be wireless off and still get a wireless bonus. It does not say that it allows external devices to be wireless off and still get a wireless bonus.
It also say that if you have a wireless enabled datajack then your cybernetic can communicate with the rest of your [wireless enabled] gear. It does not say that your cybernetics can communicate with the rest of your [wireless disabled] gear via a wireless disabled datajack (by using a wire).
Internal Router
By using the body’s internal neural network as “wires,” the internal router allows the user’s cybernetics to communicate with one another as if they were wirelessly connected and, if expanded via a datajack or similar broadcast-enabled piece of cyberware, with the rest of the user’s gear.
1) You can run your internal augmentations wireless off and still get wireless bonus.
2) If you want your (now wireless off) internal augmentation to still talk with a wireless enabled external device then you need a wireless enabled datajack (or an internal commlink or cyberdeck).
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2) If you want your (now wireless off) internal augmentation to still talk with a wireless enabled external device then you need a wireless enabled datajack (or an internal commlink or cyberdeck).
Except that makes absolutely no sense what so ever, ofcource this is SR5 so maybe i shouldn't be surprised.
Not being able to replace wireless signal with a wire is possible the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard.
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Of course you can still run your firearm wireless off and connect it to your DNI with a wire, but then your firearm don't get it's wireless bonus. Your Internal Router does not enable wireless bonuses in external devices. It enable wireless bonuses in internal augmentations.
Having said that, since there is a free action called "Change Linked Device Mode" that talk about devices linked to your DNI either via wired or wireless connection, I always thought that you should get many of the action economy bonuses (wireless bonus to let you do stuff as free action rather than simple action) as soon as you had a link from the device to your DNI (either wireless or via a wire - and no matter if you have internal router or not). I guess the reasoning was that wireless connection had higher bandwidth and was ultimately slightly faster... faster enough to give you that extra edge needed to do things as a free action rather than a simple action. But most economy bonuses actually only require that the device is wireless enabled, not that you also have access to DNI(!)
(the firearm wireless bonus on p. 424 is the exception rather than the rule)
Replace all economy bonuses from a "Wireless" Bonus to a "Linked to DNI" Bonus! ;)
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A bit late to the discussion, but a few general thoughts:
Deckers and Technomancers have much, much fun invading opponents' cyberware, doing things like turning off their eyes, turning off wired reflexes, bricking eyes, looping obscene images on their image link.
Corporate internal security can do sweeps of wireless traffic to detect cyberware in locations where no authorized personnel are supposed to be. What piece of 'ware is an infiltrator or weapons specialist willing to give up to avoid these while having their eyes, ears, internal weapons, foot anchors, etc. work at a higher capacity than wireless-off mode?
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My advice is if you want one of these things just save .5 essence and get a betaware version just after chargen. .49 essence, 8 availability and 22,500 nuyen.
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I guess the reasoning was that wireless connection had higher bandwidth and was ultimately slightly faster
Witch ofcource allso doesn't make anysense what so ever, wired is and always will be faster then wireless.
But i ques nothing matters, as the wireless bonuses themself mostly dont make a slick of sense and are just something tacked on to make combat hacking viable option when it really shouldn't be.
So in the ends it comes down to "houserule wireless bonuses away if you want to keep your sanity intact"
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If the GM is being honest Combat Hacking isn't really viable anyways... all your wireless stuff should be Silent Running. Which makes it impossible to know what you're going to hack unless you are searching stuff out well in advance. Add a half dozen stealth tags, or whatever you can manage to hook up to your pan, suddenly there is a whole lot of chaff for the hacker to go through.
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"hmm.... I wonder if his eyes might be wireless enabled... I am trying to spot the device icon of his cyberyes"
"how many silent running icons are there in the vicinity that are not rfid-tags?"
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How can you tell if it's an RFID or not without scanning it? By the rules you can't as far as I know if it's running silent.
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There was a brief time when hackers thought they could confuse security by flooding hosts with dozens of RFID chips running silent, but once they figured out that demiGODs knew enough to design their scans to screen for icons that were running silent and were not RFID chips, the days of that trick were numbered.
No idea how exactly you do it.
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How can you tell if it's an RFID or not without scanning it?
DT seem to imply that you can...
DT p. 69
....demi-GODs knew enough to design their scans to screen for icons that were running silent and were not RFID chips, the days of that trick were numbered...
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Yes, but that is GOD and demi-GOD's. How would anyone else do that? Because I can tell you that if you use that reasoning a PC will want to know how they can do that too.
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This is going off topic.........
It is not clear what you can ask for and what you cannot ask for. The book basically only say that the matrix is very good in finding things for you.
I mostly use the matrix perception list as a reference on examples of matrix properties that you can set your filter on (so at our table type of device or model of the device etc would be valid). I also reason that you can use the negative value as well (all that does not match type of device or model etc). DT also mentions playing "20 questions" to narrow down your search results.
This might or might not be the right way of doing it. The book is very vague. All it really say is that if you know what device you are looking for ("his cybereyes" or whatever) then you resolve it with an Opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] Logic + Sleaze Test.
....And that if you don't even have an idea that there might be a silent running icon out there you can for example still start looking for random silent running icons in the vicinity.
Now, icons in the matrix are very obvious. If the signal is strong (the physical device is within 100 meters or you) then you don't even need to take a test. Icons out on the grid that belong to a device that is physically more than 100 metres away just require one single hit on a matrix perception test (which according to the normal perception threshold table is as obvious as a neon sign, running crowd, yelling or gun fire) - no matter of the device is physically on the other side of the world and the icon is running on another grid (!)
And no matter where in the world a physical device is you still only need a single net hit on an opposed Matrix Perception test to spot the icon of a silent running device (most icons don't even have a sleaze attribute).
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I get this question a lot (one might say frequently). How I run it: Matrix Perception basically becomes a game of 20 Questions. "Are there silently running icons in my vicinity?" is often question one. You can then ask follow up questions based on the answer. These questions can confirm the presence of a certain type of icon (are any of them weapons?) as well as absence (are any of them not stealth tags?). When you get around to picking a specific silently-running icon for the Opposed Test, you can narrow it down somewhat.
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Ah, I see. So its pretty much a must have Item, if you can fit its massive essence cost.
Eh. Your decker should be earning his keep in protecting you as well. :P
It's nice. But must have? Nah. Maybe if it was cheaper in Essence. Which is a great balance point actually - helps prevent One True Builds.
I see it as more useful on NPCs.
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All wireless devices have a device icon. You can reduce the traffic between the matrix and the device, but you cannot stop it entirely. The wireless device still have a device icon. It just no longer shine so bright that it is obvious to spot. To Spot the icon of a device that run silent is resolved by an Opposed Matrix Perception Test.
The whole "looking for all silent running icons in the vicinity" is just to get an idea that there is a device out there you previous didn't know about. There is no need for this step if you already know what you are looking for.
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The question there is then how you know what you're seeing. I doubt a smartgun is going to be totally obvious as such at a glance in a crowd (less of an issue if your team and your enemies are the only icons within 6 blocks in the barrens).
Also situations like...if you're in a mall and don't have the commcode of your mark you're going to need to look around til something is recognizable and you know you're looking at the right device. That kind of thing shouldn't be instant.
It's really infuriating when this part of the rules is so vague but other parts are needlessly/valuelessly granular
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If you're in a mall and you're looking for, "a persona" then you're going to be there for a long long time before you find the right one.
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The question there is then how you know what you're seeing. I doubt a smartgun is going to be totally obvious as such at a glance in a crowd (less of an issue if your team and your enemies are the only icons within 6 blocks in the barrens).
I like to think of it from the other way....
If you see someone wielding a smartgun then you automatically also see its device icon.
Unless if he is wielding a smartgun over 100 meters away... in that case the device icon is as obvious to spot as a neon sign but you still need to concentrate for a second or so to spot it in the sea of all other devices.
If his smartgun is running silent then you still need to concentrate to spot it in the sea of all other devices, how obvious it is to spot depend on how good the owner roll in the opposing test, but on average you need about two hits (one net hit) on your opposed test to spot it (so it would be as obvious as a street sign, pedestrian, conversation or silenced gunfire).
Also situations like...if you're in a mall and don't have the commcode of your mark you're going to need to look around til something is recognizable and you know you're looking at the right device. That kind of thing shouldn't be instant.
It's really infuriating when this part of the rules is so vague but other parts are needlessly/valuelessly granular
Well - What do you know about your mark? ;)
You have to know something or else you will never know that you got the right persona.....(!)
If you know how he physically look then you can take a Normal Perception + Intuition test with a positive dice pool modifier of 3 dice because you are specifically looking for your mark that you know what he looks like but you also probably get a negative dice pool modifier of 2 dice because there are so much people (you can also substitute your Perception for Sneaking).
If you successfully spot your target then you automatically also spot his persona.
Unless you spot your mark over 100 meters away... in that case the persona icon is as obvious to spot as a neon sign but you still need to concentrate for a second or so to spot it in the sea of all other persona icons.
If his commlink that he based his persona on is running silent then you still need to concentrate to spot it in the sea of all other persona icons, how obvious it is to spot depend on how good the owner roll in the opposing test, but on average you need about two hits (one net hit) on your opposed test to spot it (so it would be as obvious as a street sign, pedestrian, conversation or silenced gunfire).
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Kincaid, main thing I'm asking about is this line 'Note that if there are multiple silent running icons in the vicinity, you have to pick randomly which one you’re going to look at through the Opposed Test. ' from the core book. What has been said with regards to silent running icons seems to say that you can narrow that down from 'All the silent icons in a given area' i.e. on a person, to 'all the silent running icons that are eyes' without doing that Opposed Test to find them. Which seems to negate almost all reason to run silent if you aren't actively a Hacker's Persona, Sprite, or similar thing.
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Kincaid, main thing I'm asking about is this line 'Note that if there are multiple silent running icons in the vicinity, you have to pick randomly which one you’re going to look at through the Opposed Test. ' from the core book. What has been said with regards to silent running icons seems to say that you can narrow that down from 'All the silent icons in a given area' i.e. on a person, to 'all the silent running icons that are eyes' without doing that Opposed Test to find them. Which seems to negate almost all reason to run silent if you aren't actively a Hacker's Persona, Sprite, or similar thing.
I can't speak to how things were when the core book was published, but I imagine the "pocketful of stealth tags" thing was unintended. Picking amongst 3 or 4 silent icons sounds like it would be exciting and thrilling (in practice it's probably slightly less so because of the action economy issues that deckers have). Picking randomly from 500 icons essentially means that your silently-running icons are never at risk, which goes against the entire design carrot/stick design philosophy of the wireless Matrix in 5e. You end up with a gamist loophole in the rules. That's not the characters coming up with a cool idea or the decker doing tricky decker stuff, that's a player recognizing a gap in how separate rules interact with one another. There's no reason for sec guards not to do that same thing, making the team's decker essentially useless. It's just generally unfun all around.
Now, if the people are your table are reasonable and don't stuff their pockets with stealth tags and the guessing game works to increase tension at your table, that's great. Go with it. I'm simply explaining how I circumvented it at my table, so it's very much in the realm of house rules. I wouldn't allow for something as granular as "cybereyes." Generally, I try to stick to inversions of the qualities listed on the sidebar on page 235 with a few things tacked on. Weapon icons are discussed as behaving differently (when used legally), so "weapons" as a broad category works, but you couldn't differentiate between pistols and assault rifles.
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The problem with ruling that way then limits the use of Wrapper. Why couldn't you, instead of using Stealth tags, use handheld sensor housings with a single sensor in them? 200 nuyen a pop, and sensors are useful so you can't discard it as a 'but that's all it's used for' being the situation. Then toss in Wrapper with a cheap deck (cheapest Deck I know of is in Data Trails at 21k) as Wrapper doesn't require the icons to be slaved to the Deck (otherwise it wouldn't work for Technomancers that take it as an Echo because they can slave nothing). The problem comes with the lack of a rule on how you differentiate between things, because unless you make an action or hard rule for how you do that there will always be a way to do it.
Edit: Actually if you know they won't go after your RFID tags you could use your real sensors as Sensor Tags as those are RFID.
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This really is not the place for a discussion how matrix perception works. Just sayin'
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Wrapper actually gets a lot of use in my game. If someone wants to invest 5 figures in making his gear harder (but not impossible) to spot in the Matrix, then I'm all for it. Wrapper can be overcome through MP, so it encourages the players to do some legwork to pick the best iconography possible for wherever it is they're headed. It's a much more interactive (from a rules and setting point of view) approach. There's a world of difference between that and spending 500 nuyen to be immune to spiders. I want players to creatively problem solve things that come up during a run as well as things that are just inherent to the setting; that's one of the strongest draws Shadowrun has for me. If the game was reduced to endless take aim/six-round bursts of APDS Action Phases, I'd get bored pretty quick.
I spend a lot (A LOT A LOT) of time coming up with security SOPs for my characters. That's the kind of stuff I want to encourage.
[and jim1701 is correct, let's get back to our regularly scheduled program]
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Created a thread for matrix perception discussion here (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21583.0).