[AJCarrington]

FYI - updated file over on DTRPG...no changes to the URFC.

[CanRay]

I do get the fluff part of it, i just think its bad design decision. What is the point of including a weapon, if nobody is going to use it, because its more expensive and has worse stats in all categories?

Because the better item isn't always available to buy.

Yeah, that nice Ruger Super Warhawk is wonderful, but if the Fixer only has Colt New Frontiers in stock because everyone already bought all the Warhawks before you showed up, no amount of negotiating will do.

[martinchaen]

frankhlane Agreed! Though the "Krime Stopper" pistol from Gun H(e)aven 2 kinda breaks with the spree/boss/wave of GH3...

If they need more alternatives, I propose the following:
Krime Lord
Krime Rate ("Hah, chummer, the Krime Rate is about to go up", or "You're about to become part of the Krime Rate, chummer", or something like that)
Krime War
Krime Gun (or BFG, as an alternative to the Krime Kannon, if you want to go old-school )
Krime Pays (heh)
Krime Zone
Krime Force
Krime Ring
Krime ... nah, I'm out.

The catalog for this range of weaponry definitely needs to be named The/A Life of Krime, though...

[Michael Chandra]

Not to mention, CanRay, that we need to give the NPCs some guns. ^_^

[CanRay]

Not to mention, CanRay, that we need to give the NPCs some guns. ^_^

The "Home Defense" items are dedicated strictly for NPCs I expect.  Or for hiding around your house like Thomas Jane in The Punisher.

However, during my mid-day nap, I had an image in my head of what the hell the Rain Forest does, and realized...  "What if it was using an HMG Round?"

So, with a Shadowrun-tech .50 BMG or a 12.7X108mm Caseless equivalent, what do you folks think?

Aside from the fact that Lefty getting off lightly? 

[Michael Chandra]

Decrease its accuracy, double the recoil per shot, as well as uncompensated Recoil penalties, and I'm game. ^_^

[martinchaen]

I'm with Michael; that accuracy has to go. One of the tradeoffs of a carbine type firearm is a decrease in accuracy; that and effective range. Make it one of those weird, niche weapons that has a really short range (machine pistol or SMG?) and decrease the accuracy to other carbine variants (i.e. 4 or 5), then the original price suddenly seems more apt.

[frankhlane]

Decrease its accuracy, double the recoil per shot, as well as uncompensated Recoil penalties, and I'm game. ^_^

Seconded!  Big damage with low accuracy is fine with me, because accuracy = damage in SR5.

However, it might just be easier to lower it's base accuracy and damage a bit.

[Elektrycerze3]

The fact that sniper rifles and carbines are even remotely interchangeable is really weird to me from a fluff standpoint.  If we can add the sporting rifle category, surely we can add a carbine category.  I'd even like to see some sort of die penalty for using a longarm in tight quarters (like a narrow stairwell) to encourage diversity of weapon choice.

I agree. Although having lots of different ranges might be confusing, the die penalty sounds about right.

Unless I'm misreading Michael's post, I think he shares my concern about the carbine becoming a assault rifle of choice.  I don't dispute the earlier findings re: longarms vs. Alpha, my main issue with the Rain Forest isn't that it outperforms longarms, it's that it outperforms the Alpha.  You certainly don't have to sell me on the importance of grenades, but the carbine user could add an underbarrel launcher the day Gun and Gun comes out, so the issue here is one of timing, not game design.  The people designing the product should be able to project things a year down the line and assess game balance.

I am sorry, it was I who misread everything( I owe you and Michael an apology =(

When every Sniper Rifle except 1 functions perfectly normal in a firefight, you have every right to bring one into a firefight. When a cheap AR outbeats everything except the most expensive and most fragile sniper rifle, I get iffy feelings. But once again, if it's as bad as it sounds, they'll fix it no doubt.

Maybe the problem is in the sniper rifles? Everybody just uses Ares Alpha for long-shots... Why not buff them?

And I have used the Insaniac99's calculator to compare Carbine and Alpha... I was absolutely wrong, it is broken. I thought that the lack of FA and BF functionality levels the field for both rifles, but I was wrong: Carbine comes out on top even against Long Bursts...

[spoiler=My calculations]
I used stats for Elite Corporate Security from SR5, p. 384, but with armor jackets instead of full body armor.
SA shot from Alpha deals 9 DMG on average.
SA shot from Carbine deals 12 DMG on average.
FA burst from Alpha deals 10 DMG on average.
And that's without adding smartgun to Carbine... It has 7 Acc, while Alpha has 5(7), so Alpha with a smartlink turned off performs even worse.
[/spoiler]

[Michael Chandra]

When every Sniper Rifle except 1 functions perfectly normal in a firefight, you have every right to bring one into a firefight. When a cheap AR outbeats everything except the most expensive and most fragile sniper rifle, I get iffy feelings. But once again, if it's as bad as it sounds, they'll fix it no doubt.

Maybe the problem is in the sniper rifles? Everybody just uses Ares Alpha for long-shots... Why not buff them?

I still prefer Sniper Rifles myself, since they have a higher Accuracy and I keep firing longer. Basically I sacrifice hitting chance for being able to keep firing. I also don't require Smart Guns this way. So I sacrifice the ability to make a near-certain hit for working well in long firefights as well as a sniping possibility with a weapon that does more damage than the Alpha if the defender is unaware. For the crucial firefights I got myself a Battle Rifle, which quite helped when a Blizzard Spirit ended up engulfing Kane in the cockpit.

The short summary of my conclusion in a houserule debate is that Longarms vs Alpha has its balances, in large part due to accumulative recoil. So I'm not concerned there. My concern is that currently the Carbine outshines even the best Longarm in firefights in exactly the thing the Longarm is supposed to excel at: Higher damage and more active IPs in return for less hitting chance.
Don't get me wrong, the idea of an SA weapon with higher damage does sound nice, since it gives AR users more choice than "Use the Alpha unless you want silenced and gas-vented, then get the Raiden instead." I just think it's a bit too much right now.
I also noticed that Insaniac's calculator does not actually seem to apply the limit in the damage calculations.

[Elektrycerze3]

For the crucial firefights I got myself a Battle Rifle, which quite helped when a Blizzard Spirit ended up engulfing Kane in the cockpit.

You converted one to SR5, or are you talking SR4? O.o

I also noticed that Insaniac's calculator does not actually seem to apply the limit in the damage calculations.

Well, I have few other instruments at my disposal, since I get seriously confused with the numbers.

I just think it's a bit too much right now.

And I totally agree now.

[Michael Chandra]

The Crocket Sniper Rifle is basically a Battle Rifle.

[Elektrycerze3]

The Crocket Sniper Rifle is basically a Battle Rifle.

I see. That makes sense =)

[Jimmy_Pvish]

Which skill we will use with Ultimax Rain Forest Carbine? Automatic or Long Arms?

By RAW, Assault Rifle use Automatic skill (ever with SA mode).

So, Ultimax Rain Forest use automatic skill despite it doesn't has any automatic mode to begin with?

[Agonar]

The fact that sniper rifles and carbines are even remotely interchangeable is really weird to me from a fluff standpoint.  If we can add the sporting rifle category, surely we can add a carbine category.  I'd even like to see some sort of die penalty for using a longarm in tight quarters (like a narrow stairwell) to encourage diversity of weapon choice.

I agree. Although having lots of different ranges might be confusing, the die penalty sounds about right.

I think my houserule for this sort of thing will be an Accuracy hit.

Sniper Rifles use as battle rifles will have their accuracy reduced, since much of the accuracy comes from the bracing, lining up a shot, taking time to aim before firing.

I also like the die penalty for tight quarters.  Since size is a big basis, I like the idea of  a penalty based directly on it's Concealability modifier, since that is based somewhat on size also.  Say, a die penalty in tight quarters = 1/2 concealability modifier....
SMGs, Machine Pistols with extended stocks, at -1
Sword, Sawed off Shotgun, bullpup ARs are -2
Katana, Shotgun, ARs, Sport Rifles and Crossbows -3
Sniper rifles, Bows, Grenade Launchers (as if) are -4
and MGs, Assault Cannons (not actually on this list, but can go here), rocket/missile launchers are -5.. 

again, using explosives in tight quarters is asking for trouble, but they should still have the modifier, because someone, somewhere, will try..