Shadowrun
Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: CanRay on <12-14-13/1750:31>
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Just in time for Christmas! (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/123830/Shadowrun-Gun-H%28e%29aven-3)
Dual-Statted for your convenience in SR4A and SR5!!! Perfect for that person on your list that loves them their gear porn! ;D
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As is Coyotes (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/123829/Shadowrun-Coyotes?src=s_pi)
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I love the preview pages. The jack-point shadow talk has always amused me :)
Have you purchased it canray? Is it worth the price of admission?
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Neat book, though the Rain Forest Carbine is horrific.
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Have you purchased it canray? Is it worth the price of admission?
I'm on the cover, but not as the author. This pleases me greatly as I am a firm lover of Gear Porn of all types. (Sorry folks that don't like the Gun/Vehicle/Drone Porn, but I am one of the target audience!). I'd say it is worth it, but I would automatically be biased, now, wouldn't I?Neat book, though the Rain Forest Carbine is horrific.
Horrific how? It is a terror for people with big eyebrows, that's for sure!
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Horrific how? It is a terror for people with big eyebrows, that's for sure!
14P/-4, availability 5. Assuming Run and Gun includes basic addons like extended clips and extra firing modes, this baby is going to be the AR of choice for everyone, and it's not that close. As it stands, it's a pretty serviceable sniper rifle.
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Horrific how? It is a terror for people with big eyebrows, that's for sure!
14P/-4, availability 5. Assuming Run and Gun includes basic addons like extended clips and extra firing modes, this baby is going to be the AR of choice for everyone, and it's not that close. As it stands, it's a pretty serviceable sniper rifle.
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Damn, that is some muzzle flash!!!
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Even firing semi auto bursts, it is going to ruin lives.
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Even firing semi auto bursts, it is going to ruin lives.
"I would like everyone to meet the tester for the Rain Forest Carbine, everyone give a hand to Lefty as he is wheeled up to the stage!!!"
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Even firing semi auto bursts, it is going to ruin lives.
"I would like everyone to meet the tester for the Rain Forest Carbine, everyone give a hand to Lefty as he is wheeled up to the stage!!!"
???
I take it bad things happen to both shooter and the shootiee of this weapon?
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Nope. Just the target. It's an assault rifle that hits like a sniper rifle, like the Beowulf. Load it with APDS and you're looking at a base of 14P with a -8AP so that it shoots through schools. It's also got a base Accuracy of 7, a laughably low availability, and costs next to nothing. The only downsides are the small magazine and the lack of BF and FA.
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You know what I really loved about Gun H(e)aven 3?
This line:
A book with more weapons and combat options called Run & Gun will be released shortly after this book, providing details on these modifications.
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Has small moment of happiness..... Then realises that there aren't even moths living in his wallet and its gonna be a while before he gets either book :'(
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This is a sweet book. Lots of sporting rifles and shotguns in particular, some of which are VERY nice. Just an all around great book. I didn't have time to look through in great detail so I don't recall all of the gun names, but that SA Assault Rifle is amazing. It's probably the gun you guys are discussing, but I don't have the book on this pc yet :D
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I'm sorry guys, but I really dislike this book. Not only are a bunch of the weapons really out of place and strange for Shadowrun, but there are some serious balance issues like the one that has been mentioned already.
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Sorry Catalyst, I really wish I could support this one, but I will not only not be recommending it to my friends and fellow players, but I won't be allowing it in my games. Yuck.
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That does sound like a problem. The Alpha is 5/11P/-2 as the best AR, on the Sniper Rifle side the EBR is 6/12P/-3 and the most expensive and fragile Sniper Rifle is 8/14P/-5. A 7/14P/-4 AR sounds like a big balance issue. Now if it were a real-expensive Longarm with a weakness, sure.
I also don't get why they introduce Sport Rifles again, after cutting them out and turning the Sport Rifles into Sniper Rifles as far as range is concerned.
I'll still get it later, and take a look, and hope I can pick up a nice longarm toy for Missions. But that AR probably should be errata'd.
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Am I missing something guys? Admittedly, I've only just downloaded, but if there is an apparent issue with one of the weapons, why wouldn't you just exclude it from your campaign?
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Am I missing something guys? Admittedly, I've only just downloaded, but if there is an apparent issue with one of the weapons, why wouldn't you just exclude it from your campaign?
I think the concern generally lies with the effect of the gun on open play--at least, that's really my concern. For my home campaign, the gun will likely be consigned to the same dustbin as emotitoys.
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I'm sorry guys, but I really dislike this book. Not only are a bunch of the weapons really out of place and strange for Shadowrun, but there are some serious balance issues like the one that has been mentioned already.
Well, sorry to hear that, but everyone's taste is different.
Aside from the single rifle that is overpowered (and I apologize for missing that when I was proofreading), but what were the other issues you had? What, exactly, did you find "out of place"?Am I missing something guys? Admittedly, I've only just downloaded, but if there is an apparent issue with one of the weapons, why wouldn't you just exclude it from your campaign?
I think the concern generally lies with the effect of the gun on open play--at least, that's really my concern. For my home campaign, the gun will likely be consigned to the same dustbin as emotitoys.
Or homerule the damage down severely. I like the idea of the firearm, aside from the damage value listed being really too high. If my group finds it, I'll mark it at a bit over a standard assault rifle for damage, lower the accuracy (it is a short barreled carbine), and call it a day.
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I like the sound of old-fashioned guns, Gun Heaven always was about both the new toys and the old ones combined. So even though those are rather useless from a Runner's perspective, they make perfect sense inside Gun Heaven.
As for the rifle, I really would like these toys in Missions and then its value would become a problem and would require a Missions GM (Bull) Call, otherwise I'd just put it at something like 12P/-3 & lower Accuracy (can't make a full call until I see the total stats) whenever I actually start playing SR5.
CanRay, how many units of fuel does Flame Thrower Suppressive Fire use?
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CanRay, how many units of fuel does Flame Thrower Suppressive Fire use?
GH3 p. 3: "They can be used for Suppressive Fire (p. 179, SR5). They also can be used to attack multiple targets; using a Complex Action means the shooter can attack with a fanning motion, striking up to three targets (as long as they are all within the weapon’s range and each target is within four meters of the others). This uses two units of the flamethrower’s ammo capacity."
Looks like both types of usage uses two units of fuel. But I'm not the author.
BTW: Folks might have missed this, but the flamethrower in GH3 uses Light Pistol ranges. Each flamer uses its own range depending on make, model, and likely the type of fuel used.
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I like the sound of old-fashioned guns, Gun Heaven always was about both the new toys and the old ones combined. So even though those are rather useless from a Runner's perspective, they make perfect sense inside Gun Heaven.
As for the rifle, I really would like these toys in Missions and then its value would become a problem and would require a Missions GM (Bull) Call, otherwise I'd just put it at something like 12P/-3 & lower Accuracy (can't make a full call until I see the total stats) whenever I actually start playing SR5.
CanRay, how many units of fuel does Flame Thrower Suppressive Fire use?
I'd be fine with the Rain Forest stats, if it had something like an Accuracy of 4, based on the punishing recoil and short barrel. Then it'd be a wacky niche weapon, rather than being "the right answer".
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Accuracy 4 is still 7 with Smart Gun and Take Aim / Enhanced Accuracy.
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I think the concern generally lies with the effect of the gun on open play--at least, that's really my concern. For my home campaign, the gun will likely be consigned to the same dustbin as emotitoys.
Ahh...that makes sense, knew I was missing something ;) Thanks
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Accuracy 4 is still 7 with Smart Gun and Take Aim / Enhanced Accuracy.
Very true, but that's true of all Accuracy 4 items.
Even the Krime Boss Home Defense System looks decent with that kind of preparation despite the Accuracy of 3.
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You'd still lose hits >10% of the time, close to 1/3 of the time with 6 Accuracy, but given its damage it wouldn't be much of a price to pay. Even if with an Alpha you'd score a hit more occasionally, the damage difference would still be massively in favor of the Carbine at 14/-4 vs 11(12)/-2. Sniper Rifles might still be superior if its Accuracy drops that much, but it'd be quite the excellent AR.
Note that I don't know its full stats, if it's an SA-only AR the Alpha would still have its benefits since it can BF.
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I like the new Gunheaven3, especially since there are so many pictures which adds a little more fluff to the weapons apart from raw stats!
But i have to say sometimes i get the feeling that the balance team/guy does a really bad job. It took me like five minutes of reading all the weapons to figure out that the Ultimax Rain Forest Rifle is totally overpowered in every aspect (not if you compare it to other assault rifles, but when you compare it to sporting/sniper rifles). Furthermore i don't get why the Model2066 is crappier than the Model2054. Improving a shotgun for 12 years and then coming up with a model which is worse in every aspect AND more expensive, that's science! But i guess that's just nitpicking.
So far i am running my campaign without any house-rules or modifications, but i am gonna adjust that rainforest rifle to something like 13P/-3 and/or a price increase.
Overall: more weapons = better! :)
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Furthermore i don't get why the Model2066 is crappier than the Model2054. Improving a shotgun for 12 years and then coming up with a model which is worse in every aspect AND more expensive, that's science! But i guess that's just nitpicking.
The Ford Mustang II is a perfect example of newer is not better.
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Furthermore i don't get why the Model2066 is crappier than the Model2054. Improving a shotgun for 12 years and then coming up with a model which is worse in every aspect AND more expensive, that's science! But i guess that's just nitpicking.
The Ford Mustang II is a perfect example of newer is not better.
I do get the fluff part of it, i just think its bad design decision. What is the point of including a weapon, if nobody is going to use it, because its more expensive and has worse stats in all categories? They are also from the same brand so there is even less options to differentiate between the two besides stats. One could argue well it doesn't hurt and "you don't have to use it" but if you are talking about opportunity costs it does hurt, because they could have included another weapons instead. As i said its maybe just nitpicking but there is a trend of unbalanced stuff going on when they transitioned to 5th edition. Comparison between "Ares MP LMG" and "Krime Wave" is another example where one weapons is drastically cheaper and does more damage with lower availability, but at least there are some other minor differences which could justify that.
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My problem with the Rain Forest is that the description is for a Carbine, and the stats aren't. Carbines have short barrels, so the accuracy shouldn't be as high as it is, nor should it have the same range as standard assault rifles. It still uses Assault Rifle ammo, but with a little less power (shorter barrel again), so the damage shouldn't be as high, and the AP shouldn't be higher than any Assault Rifle either.
The best stats that Assault Rifles have in Core is Acc 6, Dam 11p, AP -2... this Carbine should be weaker than those, not better than all of them. This is almost on par with the Krime Cannon at 16p and -6 AP.
if I use this weapon, I might just reclassify it as a mini Assault Cannon, drop the Accuracy down to 3 for the short barrel, and double the cost maybe.
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There might have been a problem with Ultimax Rain Forest Carbine... If not for the fact that it is SA only. And assault rifle ranges are still shorter than sniper rifle ranges, so I don't see a problem here: sniper rifles are exactly for hitting things from afar and they are still #1 in that field.
So Ultimax Rain Forest Carbine is cool, but not a game-breaker. Myth Busted :-P
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Aside from the single rifle that is overpowered (and I apologize for missing that when I was proofreading), but what were the other issues you had? What, exactly, did you find "out of place"?
It's the anachronistic stuff. Lever guns, black powder, WW2... We care a lot about WW2 in real life because it was our last great all out war that reshaped the world. The sixth world's culture has been through so much since then, I don't think their culture would have the same attraction to WW2 and Wild West culture that we have. Sure, there will always be historians and collectors and that's fine, but those people are not Shadowrunners. They're the same people who do antique firearms collecting and WW2 reinactments now: Fat old men with too much money. People who live and die in the streets in secret operations (which is the core of Shadowrun's setting) don't take novelty hobby guns on missions, no matter how muh we from 2013 think they're cool.
Shadowrun is unique because of it's unique setting. There are other cyberpunk games, but none quite like Shadowrun: Man Meets Magic and Machine. If we print a bunch of lolrandom books and it becomes "Man Meets Magic and Machine and Civil War and WW2 if you get all the supplements" the result is watered down, diluted by trying to shoehorn in a bunch of stuff Sixth Worlders are highly unlikely to care about.
M1 garand is an iconic weapon for us because we care about WW2. Where are the iconic weapons from the great upheaval in the Shadowrun setting? What iconic weapons do Sixth Worlders hold in the same regard as we do Nazi weapons because they were used to oppress people before the Great Ghost Dance and are a huge iconic part of their history? Where are the weapons that are important to people of the culture of Shadowrun instead of ones important to people from 2013 in an alternate timeline where Shadowrun never happened?
I love Shadowrun. I just think that focusing on enriching the culture and setting of Shadowrun is far more important in Shadowrun books than diversifying it. If we wanted diversity, we could play GURPS. We want more content, sure, but we want more strongly Shadowrun content. We don't need to pay for stats for weapons from 1940 in our timeline. We want more weapons from Shadowrun.
I hope this feedback helps.
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I don't think their culture would have the same attraction to WW2 and Wild West culture that we have.
Yeh, but we play runners. I like the idea of my character using a Wild West revolver exactly because I love Wild West. Besides, SR has its fair share of iconic guns such as Predator and Ingram.
Let the kids have fun with funny weapons =P Shadowrun isn't terribly realistic anyway.
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Let the kids have fun with funny weapons =P Shadowrun isn't terribly realistic anyway.
That's what I'm talking about. Catalyst can either choose to print funny books that appeal to niche interests to use with Shadowrun or choose to print Shadowrun books that appeal to people who love Shadowrun and play it because it is uniquely Shadowrun, not because they love ww2 and the wild west.
I didn't say what I like is more important than what you and everyone else like, I just said that what I like is Shadowrun and I will be buying and using books about Shadowrun, not about ww2 and the wild west.
Gunhaven 3 is like making a book for Shadowrun called Vehicleorama 3 and having it filled with 1970s rollerskates, spanish privateer ships from 1665 and diving bells. Even if you really love roller disco and would love to play a roller disco pirate ship captain who uses diving bells to explore shallows shipwrecks, surely you can see why people might say "Hey, I don't like this book, I feel a little cheated that it says Shadowrun on the cover because it's about weird stuff that doesn't feel like it belongs in Shadowrun and honestly, I would have preferred if the canon didn't suddenly include roller disco pirates just because a few people out there really love sailing ship roller disco diving bell experts and want to shoehorn them into any roleplaying game they play."
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I will buy your argument if Run & Gun has that kind of stuff, but we're talking about a small supplement, not even a book. It's exactly that: a niche supplement.
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Maybe it would have been better to advertise it as a niche supplement then.
"ANARCHY30: 30 Ways to Do Things Differently in the Shadows"
There's your title. Then nobody's disappointed, people who wanted a Shadowrun book don't buy it and people who wanted a roller disco pirate m1 garand book feel catered towards. Win/Win.
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There might have been a problem with Ultimax Rain Forest Carbine... If not for the fact that it is SA only. And assault rifle ranges are still shorter than sniper rifle ranges, so I don't see a problem here: sniper rifles are exactly for hitting things from afar and they are still #1 in that field.
So Ultimax Rain Forest Carbine is cool, but not a game-breaker. Myth Busted :-P
Actually, the math, not the myth, demonstrates that a semi-automatic burst from the Rain Forest does more damage than a long burst from an Alpha. It also does more damage than a Desert Eagle sniper shot.
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There might have been a problem with Ultimax Rain Forest Carbine... If not for the fact that it is SA only. And assault rifle ranges are still shorter than sniper rifle ranges, so I don't see a problem here: sniper rifles are exactly for hitting things from afar and they are still #1 in that field.
So Ultimax Rain Forest Carbine is cool, but not a game-breaker. Myth Busted :-P
Except that it is superior to far-more-expensive Sniper Rifles and the only Sniper Rifle with slightly-better stats is real expensive, has a high availability and comes with a steep penalty when used in a firefight. Again, I don't have the entire thing yet so can't say for sure, but there's not enough grounds to claim this isn't a problem.
As for the math, Kincaid, the math done in an earlier debate pointed out an Ares Alpha against competent enemies is superior to most Sniper Rifles in a firefight in DPS. So the Alpha still has an advantage on this one, albeit it probably barely has an edge left thanks to the big damage on this one. However, the fact there's an Automatic that basically replaces Sniper Rifles at a lower cost and only sacrifices sniping range, which rarely ever matters, is a big problem as well. So the Alpha is in trouble and all of Longarms is as well.
Still, I assume they'll errata it if they conclude it's problematic. But we need the full picture before we can debate either way, rather than a blanket conclusion.
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Still, I assume they'll errata it if they conclude it's problematic. But we need the full picture before we can debate either way, rather than a blanket conclusion.
I've got money riding on assault rifles and machine guns getting tuned for sure.
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Except that it is superior to far-more-expensive Sniper Rifles and the only Sniper Rifle with slightly-better stats is real expensive, has a high availability and comes with a steep penalty when used in a firefight. Again, I don't have the entire thing yet so can't say for sure, but there's not enough grounds to claim this isn't a problem.
Well, I seriously consider the sniper ranges to be a balancing factor. YMMV, sure, I am aware of your position that most engagements in SR happen at rather short distances and I do agree, that usually you don't need the advanced range of a sniper rifle. But when you do - it makes all the difference. Being able to eliminate targets when they are unable to return fire is priceless. Moreover, I am positive that a runner shouldn't bring a sniper rifle to a running firefight. Even without said carabine the Ares Alpha was a "sniper's" weapon of choise, not sniper rifles. See Splintered State for example.
Actually, the math, not the myth, demonstrates that a semi-automatic burst from the Rain Forest does more damage than a long burst from an Alpha. It also does more damage than a Desert Eagle sniper shot.
What Michael said + underbarrel grenade launcher. Do we have to go over the importance of grenades? =)))
But we need the full picture before we can debate either way, rather than a blanket conclusion.
Sorry for my blanket conclusion: I always wanted to say something like that =P I am still positive, that the Carbine is not an issue (rifles from WAR! were an issue, but not this weapon), but I do want to hear your opinion when you get the book. Please do pm me when you've analyzed it.
Maybe it would have been better to advertise it as a niche supplement then.
It still has 28 perfectly viable guns, but they also cater to people, who would like to use the guns, hanging on the wall in a collector's house. And I do consider 38p. guns catalogues a niche: for example, many people play WoD using only generic stats like "light pistol" from the core book, without going into any detail.
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Well, I seriously consider the sniper ranges to be a balancing factor. YMMV, sure, I am aware of your position that most engagements in SR happen at rather short distances and I do agree, that usually you don't need the advanced range of a sniper rifle. But when you do - it makes all the difference. Being able to eliminate targets when they are unable to return fire is priceless. Moreover, I am positive that a runner shouldn't bring a sniper rifle to a running firefight. Even without said carabine the Ares Alpha was a "sniper's" weapon of choise, not sniper rifles. See Splintered State for example.
The fact that sniper rifles and carbines are even remotely interchangeable is really weird to me from a fluff standpoint. If we can add the sporting rifle category, surely we can add a carbine category. I'd even like to see some sort of die penalty for using a longarm in tight quarters (like a narrow stairwell) to encourage diversity of weapon choice.
What Michael said + underbarrel grenade launcher. Do we have to go over the importance of grenades? =)))
Unless I'm misreading Michael's post, I think he shares my concern about the carbine becoming a assault rifle of choice. I don't dispute the earlier findings re: longarms vs. Alpha, my main issue with the Rain Forest isn't that it outperforms longarms, it's that it outperforms the Alpha. You certainly don't have to sell me on the importance of grenades, but the carbine user could add an underbarrel launcher the day Gun and Gun comes out, so the issue here is one of timing, not game design. The people designing the product should be able to project things a year down the line and assess game balance.
It still has 28 perfectly viable guns, but they also cater to people, who would like to use the guns, hanging on the wall in a collector's house. And I do consider 38p. guns catalogues a niche: for example, many people play WoD using only generic stats like "light pistol" from the core book, without going into any detail.
Agreed--I actually like the weird assortment of guns. A lot of the time I'll arm NPCs with lower tiered weapons, so now it's nice to have a gun to give the Amerindian hunter or the European "Great White Hunter" guy. If all 28 guns are "better" then you enter the realm of power creep pretty quickly. The assault rifle benchmark is set at 11P/-2. A shadowrunner should be able to spend some money on mods or ammo to make that better, and presumably Run and Gun will give even more ways of doing this, but if there's a *much* better benchmark out there, it becomes tricky.
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When every Sniper Rifle except 1 functions perfectly normal in a firefight, you have every right to bring one into a firefight. When a cheap AR outbeats everything except the most expensive and most fragile sniper rifle, I get iffy feelings. But once again, if it's as bad as it sounds, they'll fix it no doubt.
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I'm just happy to see the extended Krime line of weapons. My Troll character who just managed to get his grubby hands on a Krime Kannon will soon be looking to buy more of "dese awesum shooty bits", replacing his Ingram Valiant with a Krime Wave, the Enfield AS-7 with a Krime Boss (" 'cause who dun't want a gun with BOSS in it's name, neh!?"), and picking up a silenced Krime Spree for when a little bit of subtlety is needed...
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I'm just happy to see the extended Krime line of weapons. My Troll character who just managed to get his grubby hands on a Krime Kannon will soon be looking to buy more of "dese awesum shooty bits", replacing his Ingram Valiant with a Krime Wave, the Enfield AS-7 with a Krime Boss (" 'cause who dun't want a gun with BOSS in it's name, neh!?"), and picking up a silenced Krime Spree for when a little bit of subtlety is needed...
Weapons made for trolls named "Krime" seems pretty Shadowrun to me! That was my favorite part of this book, that and the flamethrower. If only the rest of the book could have been themed like Shadowrun as well!
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Dual-Statted for your convenience in SR4A and SR5!!! Perfect for that person on your list that loves them their gear porn! ;D
Dual-Statted is really important to me, as I'm in the middle of a 4th ed campaign.
While I wont' be picking up any additional purely 5th ed books, as long as they keep making dual-statted ones, I'll keep buying those!
This one is now on my Christmas list!
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FYI - updated file over on DTRPG...no changes to the URFC.
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I do get the fluff part of it, i just think its bad design decision. What is the point of including a weapon, if nobody is going to use it, because its more expensive and has worse stats in all categories?
Because the better item isn't always available to buy.
Yeah, that nice Ruger Super Warhawk is wonderful, but if the Fixer only has Colt New Frontiers in stock because everyone already bought all the Warhawks before you showed up, no amount of negotiating will do.
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frankhlane Agreed! Though the "Krime Stopper" pistol from Gun H(e)aven 2 kinda breaks with the spree/boss/wave of GH3...
If they need more alternatives, I propose the following:
Krime Lord
Krime Rate ("Hah, chummer, the Krime Rate is about to go up", or "You're about to become part of the Krime Rate, chummer", or something like that)
Krime War
Krime Gun (or BFG, as an alternative to the Krime Kannon, if you want to go old-school :) )
Krime Pays (heh)
Krime Zone
Krime Force
Krime Ring
Krime ... nah, I'm out.
The catalog for this range of weaponry definitely needs to be named The/A Life of Krime, though... :D
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Not to mention, CanRay, that we need to give the NPCs some guns. ^_^
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Not to mention, CanRay, that we need to give the NPCs some guns. ^_^
The "Home Defense" items are dedicated strictly for NPCs I expect. Or for hiding around your house like Thomas Jane in The Punisher.
However, during my mid-day nap, I had an image in my head of what the hell the Rain Forest does, and realized... "What if it was using an HMG Round?"
So, with a Shadowrun-tech .50 BMG or a 12.7X108mm Caseless equivalent, what do you folks think?
Aside from the fact that Lefty (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=14120.msg258180#msg258180) getting off lightly? ;D
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Decrease its accuracy, double the recoil per shot, as well as uncompensated Recoil penalties, and I'm game. ^_^
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I'm with Michael; that accuracy has to go. One of the tradeoffs of a carbine type firearm is a decrease in accuracy; that and effective range. Make it one of those weird, niche weapons that has a really short range (machine pistol or SMG?) and decrease the accuracy to other carbine variants (i.e. 4 or 5), then the original price suddenly seems more apt.
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Decrease its accuracy, double the recoil per shot, as well as uncompensated Recoil penalties, and I'm game. ^_^
Seconded! Big damage with low accuracy is fine with me, because accuracy = damage in SR5.
However, it might just be easier to lower it's base accuracy and damage a bit.
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The fact that sniper rifles and carbines are even remotely interchangeable is really weird to me from a fluff standpoint. If we can add the sporting rifle category, surely we can add a carbine category. I'd even like to see some sort of die penalty for using a longarm in tight quarters (like a narrow stairwell) to encourage diversity of weapon choice.
I agree. Although having lots of different ranges might be confusing, the die penalty sounds about right.
Unless I'm misreading Michael's post, I think he shares my concern about the carbine becoming a assault rifle of choice. I don't dispute the earlier findings re: longarms vs. Alpha, my main issue with the Rain Forest isn't that it outperforms longarms, it's that it outperforms the Alpha. You certainly don't have to sell me on the importance of grenades, but the carbine user could add an underbarrel launcher the day Gun and Gun comes out, so the issue here is one of timing, not game design. The people designing the product should be able to project things a year down the line and assess game balance.
I am sorry, it was I who misread everything( I owe you and Michael an apology =(
When every Sniper Rifle except 1 functions perfectly normal in a firefight, you have every right to bring one into a firefight. When a cheap AR outbeats everything except the most expensive and most fragile sniper rifle, I get iffy feelings. But once again, if it's as bad as it sounds, they'll fix it no doubt.
Maybe the problem is in the sniper rifles? Everybody just uses Ares Alpha for long-shots... Why not buff them?
And I have used the Insaniac99's calculator to compare Carbine and Alpha... I was absolutely wrong, it is broken. I thought that the lack of FA and BF functionality levels the field for both rifles, but I was wrong: Carbine comes out on top even against Long Bursts...
[spoiler=My calculations]
I used stats for Elite Corporate Security from SR5, p. 384, but with armor jackets instead of full body armor.
SA shot from Alpha (http://anydice.com/program/2ff6) deals 9 DMG on average.
SA shot from Carbine (http://anydice.com/program/2ff8) deals 12 DMG on average.
FA burst from Alpha (http://anydice.com/program/2ff7) deals 10 DMG on average.
And that's without adding smartgun to Carbine... It has 7 Acc, while Alpha has 5(7), so Alpha with a smartlink turned off performs even worse.
[/spoiler]
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When every Sniper Rifle except 1 functions perfectly normal in a firefight, you have every right to bring one into a firefight. When a cheap AR outbeats everything except the most expensive and most fragile sniper rifle, I get iffy feelings. But once again, if it's as bad as it sounds, they'll fix it no doubt.
Maybe the problem is in the sniper rifles? Everybody just uses Ares Alpha for long-shots... Why not buff them?
I still prefer Sniper Rifles myself, since they have a higher Accuracy and I keep firing longer. Basically I sacrifice hitting chance for being able to keep firing. I also don't require Smart Guns this way. So I sacrifice the ability to make a near-certain hit for working well in long firefights as well as a sniping possibility with a weapon that does more damage than the Alpha if the defender is unaware. For the crucial firefights I got myself a Battle Rifle, which quite helped when a Blizzard Spirit ended up engulfing Kane in the cockpit.
The short summary of my conclusion in a houserule debate is that Longarms vs Alpha has its balances, in large part due to accumulative recoil. So I'm not concerned there. My concern is that currently the Carbine outshines even the best Longarm in firefights in exactly the thing the Longarm is supposed to excel at: Higher damage and more active IPs in return for less hitting chance.
Don't get me wrong, the idea of an SA weapon with higher damage does sound nice, since it gives AR users more choice than "Use the Alpha unless you want silenced and gas-vented, then get the Raiden instead." I just think it's a bit too much right now.
I also noticed that Insaniac's calculator does not actually seem to apply the limit in the damage calculations.
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For the crucial firefights I got myself a Battle Rifle, which quite helped when a Blizzard Spirit ended up engulfing Kane in the cockpit.
You converted one to SR5, or are you talking SR4? O.o
I also noticed that Insaniac's calculator does not actually seem to apply the limit in the damage calculations.
Well, I have few other instruments at my disposal, since I get seriously confused with the numbers.
I just think it's a bit too much right now.
And I totally agree now.
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The Crocket Sniper Rifle is basically a Battle Rifle.
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The Crocket Sniper Rifle is basically a Battle Rifle.
I see. That makes sense =)
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Which skill we will use with Ultimax Rain Forest Carbine? Automatic or Long Arms?
By RAW, Assault Rifle use Automatic skill (ever with SA mode).
So, Ultimax Rain Forest use automatic skill despite it doesn't has any automatic mode to begin with?
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The fact that sniper rifles and carbines are even remotely interchangeable is really weird to me from a fluff standpoint. If we can add the sporting rifle category, surely we can add a carbine category. I'd even like to see some sort of die penalty for using a longarm in tight quarters (like a narrow stairwell) to encourage diversity of weapon choice.
I agree. Although having lots of different ranges might be confusing, the die penalty sounds about right.
I think my houserule for this sort of thing will be an Accuracy hit.
Sniper Rifles use as battle rifles will have their accuracy reduced, since much of the accuracy comes from the bracing, lining up a shot, taking time to aim before firing.
I also like the die penalty for tight quarters. Since size is a big basis, I like the idea of a penalty based directly on it's Concealability modifier, since that is based somewhat on size also. Say, a die penalty in tight quarters = 1/2 concealability modifier....
SMGs, Machine Pistols with extended stocks, at -1
Sword, Sawed off Shotgun, bullpup ARs are -2
Katana, Shotgun, ARs, Sport Rifles and Crossbows -3
Sniper rifles, Bows, Grenade Launchers (as if) are -4
and MGs, Assault Cannons (not actually on this list, but can go here), rocket/missile launchers are -5..
again, using explosives in tight quarters is asking for trouble, but they should still have the modifier, because someone, somewhere, will try..
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again, using explosives in tight quarters is asking for trouble, but they should still have the modifier, because someone, somewhere, will try..
Poor math skills and the chunky salsa rule have proven to be modifier enough in my games ;D
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[spoiler]
The fact that sniper rifles and carbines are even remotely interchangeable is really weird to me from a fluff standpoint. If we can add the sporting rifle category, surely we can add a carbine category. I'd even like to see some sort of die penalty for using a longarm in tight quarters (like a narrow stairwell) to encourage diversity of weapon choice.
I agree. Although having lots of different ranges might be confusing, the die penalty sounds about right.
I think my houserule for this sort of thing will be an Accuracy hit.
Sniper Rifles use as battle rifles will have their accuracy reduced, since much of the accuracy comes from the bracing, lining up a shot, taking time to aim before firing.
I also like the die penalty for tight quarters. Since size is a big basis, I like the idea of a penalty based directly on it's Concealability modifier, since that is based somewhat on size also. Say, a die penalty in tight quarters = 1/2 concealability modifier....
SMGs, Machine Pistols with extended stocks, at -1
Sword, Sawed off Shotgun, bullpup ARs are -2
Katana, Shotgun, ARs, Sport Rifles and Crossbows -3
Sniper rifles, Bows, Grenade Launchers (as if) are -4
and MGs, Assault Cannons (not actually on this list, but can go here), rocket/missile launchers are -5..
again, using explosives in tight quarters is asking for trouble, but they should still have the modifier, because someone, somewhere, will try..
[/spoiler]
I am all for penalties to use large ranged weapons in close combat. All for it!
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Wait, swords and katanas get a dice pool penalty for being used in "tight quarters" in your house rule, Agonar? :-)
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I like the idea of penalizing people for trying to use a slashing weapon in a hallway, however, perhaps you could simply state that the weapon's Reach becomes a penalty to the attacker rather than to the defender when using a melee weapon in a confined space.
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I would question that particular logic. You'd first have to define "confined space". Reach would have to dictate what would be confined, as using a polearm with reach 3 will very much differ from using a katana with reach 1...
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Of course, it's all going to be subject to GM fiat, but when the rules encourage everyone to run around with a carbine that evidently fires autocannon rounds, or a burst firing sniper rifle, you have to expect an amount of that, or a playerbase willing to have their characters make equipment choices based on something that has no mechanics.
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*shrugs*
Of the 8 players I'm running with on a weekly basis, not a single one has an EBR or tries to engage targets at close range with a sniper rifle. Your mileage may vary, of course.
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Then you have the latter, a group of players who recognize that there are silly things in the rules and treat them with all the scorn they deserve by instead choosing to make use of what they feel is appropriate rather than what the numbers say is "best". Admittedly, I think it's the attitude everyone should have, but I don't think that ideal justifies a bad mechanic, either.
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I'd rather gun them down before they get within close range myself. And that EBR still cost me 10k nuyen, which is far more than the Alpha, and doesn't have inherent RC, unlike the Alpha, nor a Grenade Launcher. Plus it's harder to get into places. And unlike Automatics users, as Longarms user I do not have Suppressive Fire and Long Bursts as options, so that's yet another advantage the Alpha users have.
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Best kill is the one from such a distance that they don't know you're there. That is the strength of the sniper rifle. :)
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Wait, swords and katanas get a dice pool penalty for being used in "tight quarters" in your house rule, Agonar? :-)
a Katana without proper room to actually swing it. . . ummm, yeah. I'm not talking about melee combat in open spaces, Tight Quarters.. trying to have a sword fight in a small elevator, where overhead swings hit the ceiling, side slashes hit the side walls.. so yeah, I think that makes perfect sense.
As far as defining it.. just that. Office Hallways sometimes have lower ceilings, because of the false ceiling to hide the air ducts and AC units. Any time the GM says "you are moving through somewhat cramped spaces".. I don't think it needs to be defined exactly "If any surface or object is less than 80cm" or whatever.. since a lot of people rely on mapless descriptions of areas, the GM will tell you if you are in tight quarters or not
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Had some time to look this through, and with every non-flavor weapon I found a Core weapon which was comparable with upsides and downsides to the one listed (aside from the one black sheep, of course), which was nice. Trade in a few bonuses in return for having a Restricted rather than Forbidden weapon, for example. I like it. Heck, even the worthless 300-nuyen gun can be used by providing them to a militia then join in with them and shoot enemies down after draining their dodge pool.
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By the way, anyone want to take bets that Aetherology is the new Street Magic?
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I am sad: No lever action pistols. I would LOVE to see a resurgence of Volcanic Firearms in SR.
I am taking it, though, that we should be seeing the PDF of Run and Gun by the end of the month, since they
said that it would be out "shortly after" the GH3 in the SR5 info in GH3.
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I am sad: No lever action pistols. I would LOVE to see a resurgence of Volcanic Firearms in SR.
Saw down the barrel of a lever action, saw the shoulder brace down to a pistol grip, and boom: Mare's Leg!
(http://gunsofold.com/maresleg_holster.jpg)
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Saw down the barrel of a lever action, saw the shoulder brace down to a pistol grip, and boom: Mare's Leg!
Yeah! Now give us rules for that :-))
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Actually, CanRay, I was talking about this, not a mare's leg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vllg-kif988
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Actually, CanRay, I was talking about this, not a mare's leg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vllg-kif988
Yeah, the Volcanic is a nice piece of history, but just was never practical as a design. There is a reason it went from Volcanic to Henry to Winchester.
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Yeah, the Volcanic is a nice piece of history, but just was never practical as a design. There is a reason it went from Volcanic to Henry to Winchester.
Yes, but this is also Shadowrun, where not everything is necessarily practical. While the Volcanic might not have been practical,
it WAS cool! And Cool Looking.
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Yes, but this is also Shadowrun, where not everything is necessarily practical.
I thought that this was Shadowrun, where doing the impractical is the quickest way to get yourself killed.
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I thought that this was Shadowrun, where doing the impractical is the quickest way to get yourself killed.
Where having fun is more important than your character's survival =)
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Yes, but this is also Shadowrun, where not everything is necessarily practical.
I thought that this was Shadowrun, where doing the impractical is the quickest way to get yourself killed.
Not everyone plays Black Trenchcoat, sir. Especially with an edition that has gone back to favouring the
Pink Mohawk style of play.
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What is the Ares AR w/grenade launcher - Is that the Ares Alpha? Is it in one of the Gun haven books?
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The Ares Alpha is an AR with grenade launcher. Highest damage, highest accuracy, highest inherent RC that does not come from accessories/modifications, plus grenade launcher. All that makes it the AR of choice usually.
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Despite the fact that it is Forbidden, interestingly.
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The Ares Alpha is an AR with grenade launcher. Highest damage, highest accuracy, highest inherent RC that does not come from accessories/modifications, plus grenade launcher. All that makes it the AR of choice usually.
Is there any art depiction of the Ares Alpha somewhere?
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The Ares Alpha is an AR with grenade launcher. Highest damage, highest accuracy, highest inherent RC that does not come from accessories/modifications, plus grenade launcher. All that makes it the AR of choice usually.
Is there any art depiction of the Ares Alpha somewhere?
In a few places, but here it is on the Internet:
(http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h197/Lathi/Shadowrun/ares_alpha.gif)
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Where having fun is more important than your character's survival =)
That implication wounds me, 8P.
Not everyone plays Black Trenchcoat, sir. Especially with an edition that has gone back to favouring the
Pink Mohawk style of play.
Must we be divided into two different tribes? We're both Shadowrun fans and I really think there is room in the canon for Shadowrun at it's brighest dayglo pink neon as well as Shadowrun at it's clever sneakiest. I honestly don't think that those are two different things at all, that's what makes Shadowrun what it is. Sheerly from the point of view of how Shadowrun has tended to work generally though, my overstatement in jest earlier holds more or less true, no matter if you're charging headlong into BTL chipping go-gangers in the Barrens or Red Samurai on Ares territory, I feel like it is safe to say that impracticality is how runners end up dead and in jail in all of the wonderful editions of our beloved SR.
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Yes, but this is also Shadowrun, where not everything is necessarily practical.
I thought that this was Shadowrun, where doing the impractical is the quickest way to get yourself killed.
Getting yourself killed is considered Niche lately ;)
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o.k. i'll bite what a red samurai is doing ot Ares terf'? 8) .
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o.k. i'll bite what a red samurai is doing ot Ares terf'? 8) .
Outsourcing.
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Touché... ;D
Well done...brought quite the chuckle.
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o.k. i'll bite what a red samurai is doing ot Ares terf'? 8) .
lol nice catch. You know what it means when something doesn't add up: YOU'VE BEEN DOUBLE CROSSED BY MR. JOHNSON
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, I feel like it is safe to say that impracticality is how runners end up dead and in jail in all of the wonderful editions of our beloved SR.
See...I have never found that to be the case. I miss the days you could get a 1,000 round belt backpack. Not practical, but didn't
get you killed. The 750K Nuyen Eurovan wasn't practical...but it was what got you OUT of any situation. In Shadowrun, the Rule
of Cool should always be considered. When the street sam goes into a gangwar with his "little red wagon" which is a rolling
weapons locker...that isn't practical..but it is COOL!
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When the street sam goes into a gangwar with his "little red wagon" which is a rolling weapons locker...that isn't practical..but it is COOL!
ALL HAIL THE WEAPONS VAN!
The gift that keeps on giving!
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, I feel like it is safe to say that impracticality is how runners end up dead and in jail in all of the wonderful editions of our beloved SR.
See...I have never found that to be the case. I miss the days you could get a 1,000 round belt backpack. Not practical, but didn't
get you killed. The 750K Nuyen Eurovan wasn't practical...but it was what got you OUT of any situation. In Shadowrun, the Rule
of Cool should always be considered. When the street sam goes into a gangwar with his "little red wagon" which is a rolling
weapons locker...that isn't practical..but it is COOL!
I guess that depends on your view of what is practical. Seems to me that anything that helps a Shadowrunner successfully complete a Shadowrun is Practical. Hence the things that get you killed or arrested being Impractical, as you've failed the Shadowrun due to being dead and arrested (yes in that order, you're in the prison morgue, chummer).
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When the street sam goes into a gangwar with his "little red wagon" which is a rolling weapons locker...that isn't practical..but it is COOL!
ALL HAIL THE WEAPONS VAN!
The gift that keeps on giving!
Actually, it wasn't a van. It was wheeled contraption he had a cable from his belt to. He started with a vindicator minigun and a belt of ammo
going to the "Little red wagon". When the ammo was used up, the thing advanced a pair of AK-97s. When those ran out of ammo, he reached
back, and pulled out a pair of Ingrams. When he ran out of ammo on those, he reached back and pulled out a pair of predators. When those were
out of ammo, he reached back and pulled out the combat axe(in Sr2, it was dikoted), and pulled the release on the the Little Red Wagon, and ran
like hell while it was playing a merry little song. Once the song ended, it blew up from the few pounds of plastic explosive and ball bearings inside
the cavity behind the vindicators ammo box..
Completely not practical at all! But cool and FUN!
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Sounds like the perfect 'Ice Cream Truck from Heck' for a Killa-Klown style street gang. Can see it now, playing its merry jingle as bullets spout off it's armor and the 'Joker'-like driver inching forward as his female assistant, dressed like Harlequin, pitches grenades from the side. :})
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Sounds like the perfect 'Ice Cream Truck from Heck' for a Killa-Klown style street gang. Can see it now, playing its merry jingle as bullets spout off it's armor and the 'Joker'-like driver inching forward as his female assistant, dressed like Harlequin, pitches grenades from the side. :})
"Mungo whantz hiz trukk bak!"
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When the street sam goes into a gangwar with his "little red wagon" which is a rolling weapons locker...that isn't practical..but it is COOL!
ALL HAIL THE WEAPONS VAN!
The gift that keeps on giving!
Build one of those 3d nano printers from War! Into it, and it really will keep on giving,,
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Those melted down as part of the nanocalypse.
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I just noticed that this PDF somehow had seven artists, and two "additional designers" and the art is by far the worst I've ever seen in a Shadowrun product. Add that with the awful editing and you've got a clear "avoid". Aside from the UFRC, I believe there are two guns in the entire book better than their SR5 main book counterparts.
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...the art is by far the worst I've ever seen in a Shadowrun product.
I'm curious to know what about the art you didn't like.
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I don't want guns to be better. I want them to be alternatives, with upsides and downsides. I am very glad GH3 gave me that. :)
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I don't want guns to be better. I want them to be alternatives, with upsides and downsides. I am very glad GH3 gave me that. :)
Exactly. These guns have to fit into the world with all the other guns. They have to be alternatives, or no one would ever use the SR5 core guns. I think Gun H(e)aven 3 does this very well.
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...the art is by far the worst I've ever seen in a Shadowrun product.
I'm curious to know what about the art you didn't like.
Have you seen it? The people who did this either used pictures of guns from the internet run through a photoshop filter, and/or have no idea what a gun looks like or how one is operated. Most of the pictures flat out make zero sense even for "future tech". I don't expect Rembrandt, but the majority of the pictures are just embarrassing.
Take for example the Shiawase Monsoon and Rain. Based on the design of the stock, you would need to hipfire to get any benefit from the sights. The Cavalier Falchion looks like something a toddler would draw if asked to draw a picture of a rifle. I don't think it's physically possible to fire the Rainforest Carbine unless you are a Dwarf based on the 3" stock and extremely small foregrip area. Just awful, awful designs.
I don't want guns to be better. I want them to be alternatives, with upsides and downsides. I am very glad GH3 gave me that. :)
You're ok with paying real life money for a PDF of inferior products, I'm not. There are plenty of bad guns in the SR5 core book to choose from.
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You're ok with paying real life money for a PDF of inferior products, I'm not. There are plenty of bad guns in the SR5 core book to choose from.
Like I already said, I consider them alternatives with both upsides and downsides, to a finer scale than what Core in itself offers. So from my point of view, they are not inferior or superior but simply nice alternatives that let me put a bit more thought into how big a punch I want, with what extra bonuses and what legality I prefer. And the amount of choice it gives me exceeds that of SR5 core alone, so I am quite pleased with it.
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I liked the expanded Krime range. The majority of the rest held little interest for me personally, but I still think it was worth the cost of admission.
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I do hope we get an errata soon, because I got an Adept who's already giving me guilty eyes for using that gun in Missions. ^_^
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I hope we get Run n Gun soon so I have a clue about what the different weapon mods in Gun H(e)aven 3 mean...
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Have you seen it?
I have, thank you.
Take for example the Shiawase Monsoon and Rain. Based on the design of the stock, you would need to hipfire to get any benefit from the sights.
They do have an interesting design, that's for sure. However the Monsoon does come with a Smartlink, which means the ergonomics of the firearm can change without as much of an impact on its intended user. The Rain also has an extended stock, it appears that the shotgun is in its retracted state. I'm curious to see what the extended state is. If it's straight back, then I would agree with you. If it pops back and up, I might be inclined to lean towards the shotgun being fine for its intended audience: ignorant homeowners.
The Cavalier Falchion looks like something a toddler would draw if asked to draw a picture of a rifle.
The Falchion is a rather basic looking weapon, one that matches up with the standard upgrades listed for it. I for one would not want to see a lot of doo-dads hanging off of a rifle intended to be used as a club if need be, that's just something else to break off.
I don't think it's physically possible to fire the Rainforest Carbine unless you are a Dwarf based on the 3" stock and extremely small foregrip area.
I don't see anything in the book listing the size of the Rain Forest Carbine, I'm not sure where you're coming up with that stock length. Please note this is another firearm that features a retractable stock, we don't know if the stock is in the extended or retracted state. That being said, I do have a slight issue with the artwork: I would bring the trigger down slightly, so that it is below the lower rail of the stock rather than halfway through. However that's a minor quibble.
A question for you: when you looked at the artwork did you also look at their upgrades? Or did you simply look at the art? From your listed examples I would think that you simply looked at the art independant of the game stats.
You're ok with paying real life money for a PDF of inferior products, I'm not. There are plenty of bad guns in the SR5 core book to choose from.
Power creep is dangerously easy in crunch books. Something that Jason needs to have a good handle on not only with the core books coming out but for future books down the line. If a book like Gun H(e)aven 3 simply one-ups the core book then SR5 runs the risk of turning into Rifts. If I want to play Rifts, I'll play Rifts. I like that SR5 balances the weapons out in order to give me a good variety of a few basic concepts rather than just giving me a few optimal choices and a bunch of GM weapons.
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A question for you: when you looked at the artwork did you also look at their upgrades? Or did you simply look at the art? From your listed examples I would think that you simply looked at the art independant of the game stats.
Power creep is dangerously easy in crunch books. Something that Jason needs to have a good handle on not only with the core books coming out but for future books down the line. If a book like Gun H(e)aven 3 simply one-ups the core book then SR5 runs the risk of turning into Rifts. If I want to play Rifts, I'll play Rifts. I like that SR5 balances the weapons out in order to give me a good variety of a few basic concepts rather than just giving me a few optimal choices and a bunch of GM weapons.
Of course I looked at the attachments when considering the gun artwork. The URFC's "Retractable" stock is clearly either a side folder or rigid stock, but I'll let that slide as a technicality, for example.
Like I said, I don't need artwork that we could hang in a museum, just something that isn't insulting to my dollar.
As for power creep, the URFC throws the entire game out of balance but that has been covered already. Most of the other guns in this supplement are some degree of worse than the base guns in the SR5 book, so I struggle to understand why they are released at all aside from being a cash grab by Catalyst. When the people in the shadowtalk say the guns are crappy, why should I care about adding them to my game?
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Like I said, I don't need artwork that we could hang in a museum, just something that isn't insulting to my dollar.
Alright, I've been holding my tongue for the last several posts that you've made, samoth, but this is getting absurd.
1) If you think you can do better artwork, then by all means apply for a job at CGL
2) Your dollar isn't more valuable than anyone else's, and your opinion isn't any more right. Repeating your opinion isn't going to change anything and it's just trying to drag people into a fight
3) Don't feed the trolls
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Everyone can have their opinion except me, got it.
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Of course I looked at the attachments when considering the gun artwork. The URFC's "Retractable" stock is clearly either a side folder or rigid stock, but I'll let that slide as a technicality, for example.
Yeah, I can see that. The carbon fiber looking section where the two rails join the body, that could be hinged away from the viewer. I'm still curious where you came up with the three inches, though.
As for power creep, the URFC throws the entire game out of balance but that has been covered already.
I think (hope) we'll get an errata out for the book soon, that the two stat blocks for each weapon will be brought inline with each other.
Most of the other guns in this supplement are some degree of worse than the base guns in the SR5 book, so I struggle to understand why they are released at all aside from being a cash grab by Catalyst. When the people in the shadowtalk say the guns are crappy, why should I care about adding them to my game?
Are you the player, or are you the GM? If you're the GM, having a variety of weapons gives you more options for your players. Running around in the NAN, CAS, or maybe in the Amazon? Might not have the newest and best around, the locals are having to make do with what they can. Crit glitch with a full mag of EX-E and you need to replace it "RIGHT NOW!!!"? Maybe your fixer can get you one of the guns in GH3 fastest.
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Everyone can have their opinion except me, got it.
Everyone has their opinion. You're the only one constantly repeating it as if it can change people's minds. State your opinion and move on, that's all that I meant.
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Everyone has their opinion. You're the only one constantly repeating it as if it can change people's minds. State your opinion and move on, that's all that I meant.
It's tough for him to do that if he's having a conversation with me. And while his choice of words in the case of the Falchion are not what I would have gone with, it's still a conversation I feel like having. If you'd like to contribute, please do so. But don't jump on a guy because you don't agree with him. That doesn't contribute to things.
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The art is trivial anyway since you're free to imagine the guns looking any way you want so it's just a gripe of mine. None of the old gun splat books were really any better (i think the SSC had actual graph paper lines from the pencil drawings). I suppose what bugs me most is the lack of attention to detail and releasing a bunch of same-y guns that bring nothing to the table other than a different line of stats.
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I don't want guns to be better. I want them to be alternatives, with upsides and downsides. I am very glad GH3 gave me that. :)
Exactly. These guns have to fit into the world with all the other guns. They have to be alternatives, or no one would ever use the SR5 core guns. I think Gun H(e)aven 3 does this very well.
It also expands nicely the choices of weapons for longarms users and expands nicely on underloved classes like machine pistols, holdouts and light pistols. Sure there are a few crappy ones in there, but plenty of gangers/homeowners/criminal outfits/paramilitaries aren't going to have assault cannons at their disposals. its a good tool for GM's and players alike, aside from a few editing issues. I've no doubt it'll be even better when the weapon mods come out too, hopefully giving you options to compensate for some of the con's or boost the pro's of the new weapons for PC use.
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It also expands nicely the choices of weapons for longarms users and expands nicely on underloved classes like machine pistols, holdouts and light pistols. Sure there are a few crappy ones in there, but plenty of gangers/homeowners/criminal outfits/paramilitaries aren't going to have assault cannons at their disposals. its a good tool for GM's and players alike, aside from a few editing issues. I've no doubt it'll be even better when the weapon mods come out too, hopefully giving you options to compensate for some of the con's or boost the pro's of the new weapons for PC use.
Agreed. While I think it's a little bit questionable to release a book that requires a not-yet-released book to fully understand the pros and cons of the gear contained within, I think some of these weapons may be a bit more viable once we have a full understanding of what the various currently undfined mods/accessories do.
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Any of our German members pick up the version just released (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/125852/Shadowrun-Feuer-und-Stahl) by Pegasus? Curious if there are any differences.
Thanks in advance.
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Can anyone tell me where the Krime Spree gets its point of RC from? Thanks.
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Can anyone tell me where the Krime Spree gets its point of RC from? Thanks.
I assume the "ergonomics" mentioned in the fluff.