Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Bushw4cker on <04-03-19/1539:48>

Title: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Bushw4cker on <04-03-19/1539:48>
Does Increased Reflexes and/or Combat Sense work in Astral Space?
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-03-19/1703:20>
Technically, Initiative, Astral Initiative and Matrix Initiative are 3 separate entities and your Initiative modifiers would then not work on the other two. So with that difference explicitly made in tables, it sounds like a set of Wired Reflexes won't make a Decker faster, and the Increase/Improved Reflexes spell/power sound like they won't help astrally.

Combat Sense could work on any surprise tests in the astral, but Astral attacks are not Ranged/Melee Attacks so sounds like Combat Sense would give no bonus there.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Lormyr on <04-03-19/1908:35>
Only mana spells work in astral. So combat sense yes, increase reflexes no. From the CRB under the astral combat section:

"There are no ranged weapons that function in astral space, so unarmed attacks, active weapon foci, and mana spells are the only options for astral combat.".

Even though the skill used is astral combat in place of the normal weapon skill, unarmed attacks and weapon foci attacks are still very much a melee attack. Combat sense would work just fine.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Cabral on <04-04-19/0032:19>
Technically, Initiative, Astral Initiative and Matrix Initiative are 3 separate entities and your Initiative modifiers would then not work on the other two. So with that difference explicitly made in tables, it sounds like a set of Wired Reflexes won't make a Decker faster, and the Increase/Improved Reflexes spell/power sound like they won't help astrally.
The initiatives types are broken down into types on page 159. The table lists 6 types (with no mention of VR Rigging), but the paragraph breaks it down into 4 types: Physical, Astral, Matrix, and Rigging. By your logic, you'll need separate initiative modifiers for physical combat and AR Rigging and AR Matrix hacking which is explicitly not the case as described in the augment reality user mode on page 229.

Additionally, the increase reflexes spell does not specify an initiative type. Wired reflexes and the adept power also do not specify an initiative type. It's left to the reader to infer under which scenarios which dice apply. I thought that the astral world section would specify restrictions, but it only implies them in the form of replacement attributes on page 314.

You have EARS (sp?) from a recent book that lets you use your Matrix VR initiative for physical actions (with penalties and there may be restrictions). When you have a dual natured entity (such as an astrally perceiving character) fighting on the astral, the character will be using physical initiative against astral foes using astral initiative. Control rigs don't help with initiative anymore?

Finally, the cold sim VR user mode description (page 229) reiterates the +5D6 initiative limit when describing that it gives +3D6 initiative, implying that there is another source of applicable initiative modifiers. I cannot think of any other than augmentations and magic, but maybe I am overlooking something.

Only mana spells work in astral. So combat sense yes, increase reflexes no. From the CRB under the astral combat section:

"There are no ranged weapons that function in astral space, so unarmed attacks, active weapon foci, and mana spells are the only options for astral combat.".

Even though the skill used is astral combat in place of the normal weapon skill, unarmed attacks and weapon foci attacks are still very much a melee attack. Combat sense would work just fine.
A reference not limited to combat spells would be:
Quote from: Page 281 SR5, Step 2: Choose The Target, End Of Fourth Paragraph
Only mana-based spells work in astral space, even if you're in the physical world astrally perceiving the target.

As an aside, I can't recall anywhere that it specifies whether Adept Powers are "physical" or "mana," but I also can't think of a scenario where an adept/mystic adept would be in astrally projecting in astral space. There is the astral gateway, but if I recall correctly, that only takes you to the metaplanes. Do astral initiative rules apply to the Metaplanes?
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-04-19/0103:07>
Page 100 explicitly goes 'you have Initiative, Matrix Initiative for hotsim/coldsim, Astral Initiative for astral space'. My logic functions under those paragraphs, where 'Initiative' explicitly stands for that first form. So I disagree with any 'your logic' statements that are not founded on that page's words or my own.

Furthermore, there have been restricted ways to further increase Matrix Initiative in extended books, which is why the rules need to explicitly state it's still restricted. One option is in Kill Code: TMs can take an Immersion for it. So I disagree with the arguments that Astral Initiative would have all the same modifiers as normal Initiative, or Matrix Initiative for that matter. There wouldn't be an expensive Immersion if drugs were all you needed.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Cabral on <04-04-19/0207:51>
Page 100 explicitly goes 'you have Initiative, Matrix Initiative for hotsim/coldsim, Astral Initiative for astral space'. My logic functions under those paragraphs, where 'Initiative' explicitly stands for that first form. So I disagree with any 'your logic' statements that are not founded on that page's words or my own.
Mostly conceded. I tried to find that break down in the primary sections on initiative and the matrix and astral sections. Why is it only at the end of character creation? For the record, in the Shadowrun Concepts section, page 52, initiative and initiative dice are defined separately. In that section, that defines the concepts, it is initiative dice that vary by situation. In later sections, initiative seems to be handled as the initiative plus initiative dice that are used to determine the score in each scenario, as a sort of short hand. As such, initiative is inherently generic and all encompassing, but the intent should be clear enough.

The point about the bonuses of various initiative boosters being untyped still stands.
Furthermore, there have been restricted ways to further increase Matrix Initiative in extended books, which is why the rules need to explicitly state it's still restricted. One option is in Kill Code: TMs can take an Immersion for it. So I disagree with the arguments that Astral Initiative would have all the same modifiers as normal Initiative, or Matrix Initiative for that matter. There wouldn't be an expensive Immersion if drugs were all you needed.
Technomancers only operate in AR or Hot Sim VR (p 251) and the echo, Predictive Analytics, only gives a bonus to AR (which seems broken or at least conceptually wrong). Reiterating the limit on initiative dice under cold sim doesn't apply to Technomancers. There may be a deck, program, circumstance, or even augmentation that explicitly affects your matrix dice that gives you an extra die in cold sim that would explain it, but otherwise, it's odd.

To be explicit, I would be surprised if any group allows augmentations or magic to modify cold sim VR.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Lormyr on <04-04-19/0802:24>
Lormyr, what would you consider direct combat spells in astral space? I'm not sure if Combat Sense could apply to those, even if you allow it vs what you consider melee astral attacks.

I am not sure I understand your question. What would I consider them in relation to...?

I am unaware of any direct combat spell in which combat sense would apply. For defense against those you'd be looking for spell resistance.

For me, it is a simple matter of common sense. Making an unarmed attack in meat space is melee attack, just like swinging a fist/claw/tentacle is a melee attack in astral. Unarmed combat, weapon foci attacks, touch range mana spells, and some spirit powers (corrosive spit, elemental attack, engulf, noxious breath, paralyzing touch) are all still melee or ranged attacks.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Cabral on <04-04-19/2250:57>
Lormyr, what would you consider direct combat spells in astral space? I'm not sure if Combat Sense could apply to those, even if you allow it vs what you consider melee astral attacks.

I am not sure I understand your question. What would I consider them in relation to...?

I am unaware of any direct combat spell in which combat sense would apply. For defense against those you'd be looking for spell resistance.
I wonder if he meant indirect spells which are resolved "kind of like shooting a gun"?
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-05-19/1658:29>
Lormyr, what would you consider direct combat spells in astral space? I'm not sure if Combat Sense could apply to those, even if you allow it vs what you consider melee astral attacks.

I am not sure I understand your question. What would I consider them in relation to...?

I am unaware of any direct combat spell in which combat sense would apply. For defense against those you'd be looking for spell resistance.

For me, it is a simple matter of common sense. Making an unarmed attack in meat space is melee attack, just like swinging a fist/claw/tentacle is a melee attack in astral. Unarmed combat, weapon foci attacks, touch range mana spells, and some spirit powers (corrosive spit, elemental attack, engulf, noxious breath, paralyzing touch) are all still melee or ranged attacks.
Realised I'm an idiot because if it's not ranged/melee to begin with (since it's Direct, not Indirect) obviously it still isn't in Astral. -,- So a silly question.

Elemental Attack, Engulf, etc are all physical though aren't they? So they wouldn't do anything in astral. You're restricted to unarmed, weapon foci and mana spells, right?
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Mirikon on <04-05-19/2342:39>
Have not read the thread. This is just my take.

Increased Reflexes or any other initiative booster would not affect Astral Initiative. However, a Dual-natured creature or an Astral Perceiving (not projecting) mage/adept could use their meat initiative to attack targets on the astral.

It is possible that someone could create an 'Increase Astral Reflexes' spell or adept power, which would give the benefit of Increased Reflexes while astral projecting. It would be a separate spell from Increased Reflexes, however.

Combat Sense adds to Reaction on Surprise tests and to defend against ranged or melee attacks. In other words, the spell is a temporary boost to the Reaction attribute in certain circumstances, obeying the normal rules for stacking attribute modifications. Reaction has no effect on the astral, unless dual-natured. So the spell would be useless on the astral except for a ghoul or astral perceiving mage, or similar threats.

A spell could be made that would be an Astral version of the spell, but it would be a separate spell from Combat Sense.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Lormyr on <04-06-19/0858:25>
Elemental Attack, Engulf, etc are all physical though aren't they? So they wouldn't do anything in astral. You're restricted to unarmed, weapon foci and mana spells, right?

You're correct, none of those should function in a purely astral combat. Those examples were used to highlight the melee / ranged categorization.

Combat Sense adds to Reaction on Surprise tests and to defend against ranged or melee attacks. In other words, the spell is a temporary boost to the Reaction attribute in certain circumstances, obeying the normal rules for stacking attribute modifications. Reaction has no effect on the astral, unless dual-natured. So the spell would be useless on the astral except for a ghoul or astral perceiving mage, or similar threats.

I believe that position ignores half of the equation. A defense test is not just Reaction, but also Intuition. Furthermore, the spell does not add to Reaction at all, it adds to all defense tests - a combination of one's ability to perceive danger or an attack in time to avoid it.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Marcus on <04-06-19/1217:12>
The conversion between Astral and physical combat is not direct. The change to replace Logic with Willpower which was clearly intended to make casters a little less MAD, also distorts the combat chart. Where Physical combat is Weapon Skill+Agi [Accuracy or P-limit] depend on weapon or unarmed vs Int+Rea, or if active Int+Rea+Related Skill. Astral is Astral Combat+Willpower [Foci Accuracy or astral Limit] (weapon foci or unarmed), vs Logic+Intuition. (Where a direct conversion would make Astral Combat+Logic [Accuracy, A-Limit] vs Int x2.)

A couple things about this, in astral space the stat conversion is Logic replaces agi, willpower replaces body,  and intuition replaces reaction (Hence Astral initiative is Int x2).

While Fanatics of RAW probably can make the argument it, not a defensive test in the strictest sense of the definition. But from RAI, it's clearly a defensive test and to me there is no reason combat sense shouldn't add to it.  Now there are things about astral combat that are complex and should be considered closely. The biggest issue being the speed at which astral combat moves.  Speed doesn't necessarily  determine combat out, but it can determine if combat happens.

So I agree with Lormyr.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Mirikon on <04-08-19/1850:01>
Combat Sense adds to Reaction on Surprise tests and to defend against ranged or melee attacks. In other words, the spell is a temporary boost to the Reaction attribute in certain circumstances, obeying the normal rules for stacking attribute modifications. Reaction has no effect on the astral, unless dual-natured. So the spell would be useless on the astral except for a ghoul or astral perceiving mage, or similar threats.

I believe that position ignores half of the equation. A defense test is not just Reaction, but also Intuition. Furthermore, the spell does not add to Reaction at all, it adds to all defense tests - a combination of one's ability to perceive danger or an attack in time to avoid it.
Except it isn't boosting the defense test directly. To put it in Boolean: IF Surprise Test OR Ranged defense OR melee defense, THEN use Combat Sense + Reaction, ELSE use Reaction. Combat Sense is an increase to your Reaction, under explicit circumstances, not a boost to Defense Tests. This means it is limited by the same +4 cap as Increase Reaction, Wired Reflexes, Suprathyroid Gland, and so on, preventing you from placing Combat Sense on a wired-up dodgemonkey to make them unhittable with anything except AoE or indirect combat spells.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: PiXeL01 on <04-08-19/1855:20>
I would read it as the dice bonus to defense tests is not tied to Reaction at all but a straight bonus to the defense pool.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Lormyr on <04-08-19/1948:02>
Except it isn't boosting the defense test directly.

Combat Sense is an increase to your Reaction, under explicit circumstances, not a boost to Defense Tests.

This means it is limited by the same +4 cap as Increase Reaction, Wired Reflexes, Suprathyroid Gland, and so on

As I could not possibly interpret that from the spell as written under any circumstances, or disagree with your interpretation more, I think we may just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: DigitalZombie on <04-09-19/0106:16>
I think Mirikon is misrembering the power.
As it doesnt use the word reaction in the description.

Each rank adds 1 dice to defence test against melee and ranged attacks.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-09-19/0118:12>
I would read it as the dice bonus to defense tests is not tied to Reaction at all but a straight bonus to the defense pool.
The spell is phrased in such a way that I'd argue that any surprise test somehow not involving Reaction, would not get the bonus. But it indeed says "adds 1 die to ..., and also to rolls ..." so the defense-part is not Reaction-tied. Which means the only thing that matters is that the defense roll is against ranged/melee.

Also, any bonus that says 'add X die to Attribute Y in roll Z' does not actually augment Y, so is not capped by Augmented Maximum. Which is why Bone Density Augmentation and its kin only increase your soak rolls, not your other Body-related rolls, and won't care about Increase Body or Possession boosts. Especially since other Core spells explicitly go 'hey this attribute-boost is capped by augmented maximum'.

(With BDA, for example, the reason it explicitly goes 'add to Body part of roll' is that AP can't touch it.)

In short: I third Pixel and Lormyr.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Kiirnodel on <04-09-19/0331:16>
Digital Zombie, that is the Adept Power. It is written quite differently from the Detection Spell of the same name.

Mirikon is correct that the spell specifies that it adds to Reaction on Surprise Tests. But I believe (if my sentence parsing skills are up to snuff) that the comma after Surprise Tests means that the following phrase is a separate clause from the preceding one. Michael Chandra already pointed this out.

If the "adds 1 die for Reaction" descriptor were meant to apply to both the "Surprise Tests" and the "rolls made when defending..." then it wouldn't have the comma (this would be the form: [Spell] adds [Bonus] to [Attribute] on [Test] and [other Test]) In that form, both tests belong to the Attribute as the conjunction "and" turns the two things into a compound phrase belonging to the preceding part.

Because of the comma, it separates the phrases and means that the "and also" is continuing the preceding list, which is what is being added to. Its a convoluted phrasing nonetheless. Probably would have been a heck of a lot easier to just say "Every hit on the Spellcasting Test adds 1 die on Surprise Tests and Defense tests against ranged and melee attacks"
No idea why it needs to specify "Reaction on Surprise" or uses a long-winded way to say defending...
 
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-09-19/0357:56>
Yeah, it'd only make sense if Matrix/Astral Surprise tests existed that somehow do not involve Reaction.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: JudgeMonroe on <04-09-19/1714:52>
Technically, Initiative, Astral Initiative and Matrix Initiative are 3 separate entities and your Initiative modifiers would then not work on the other two. So with that difference explicitly made in tables, it sounds like a set of Wired Reflexes won't make a Decker faster, and the Increase/Improved Reflexes spell/power sound like they won't help astrally.

Combat Sense could work on any surprise tests in the astral, but Astral attacks are not Ranged/Melee Attacks so sounds like Combat Sense would give no bonus there.

At the table, everyone rolls initiative based on what they're currently perceiving (Meatspace, AR, VR, Astral) and not based on what they plan on *doing*.

A rigger with wired reflexes rolls 2D6 initiative, and then on his first action switches to cold sim VR. According to "Changing Initiative" (page 160) he adds 2D6 to his initiative. He also has to replace his base score R+I with DP+I and figure out when he acts next. That's some brutal paperwork.

Does he also subtract the 1D6 bonus from his Wired Reflexes? The rules are a lot less clear on this point. If the rigger subsequently drops back to AR perception, he does remove the coldsim +2D6 from his initiative (and goes back to R+I instead of DP+I, *sigh*). It sounds like you advocate that RAI is that any bonus to "Initiative" would be lost when switching to, say, "Matrix Initiative" which increases the paperwork. Okay. So do you subtract 1D6 then add 2D6 or just add 1D6? What if someone doses him with Kamikaze (+2D6 Initiative Dice) while he's in cold-sim? The mind boggles.

Then there's the question of whether an ordinary dude with a commlink and AR perception has a Persona. If he does, Calibration (Kill Code 37) increases that dude's "current Initiative Score" with no caveat that it needs to be Matrix Initiative ... so there's a Matrix Action increasing someone else's Initiative Score which could presumably then be used on a non-Matrix Action. If that dude is a mage, does he lose those Calibration points if he shifts to Astral? What if he were already there?
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-09-19/1743:34>
Then there's the question of whether an ordinary dude with a commlink and AR perception has a Persona.
Quote
AUGMENTED REALITY
[...]Your persona can go anywhere in the Matrix using
this view.[...]
When in AR, you use your normal Initiative and Initiative
Dice.

You're asking 'do I add X dice and subtract Y dice initiative score', but it doesn't strike me as a proper question. The rules you reference are very clear after all. You have a certain amount of initiative dice in mode A. You switch to mode B, which has a different amount. The rules are very explicit that if you gain/lose dice, you roll the extra or the loss.

Rather than arguing about 'would we add AND subtract', the proper argument to make would be 'hey, page 159 talks about Base vs Total and page 160 only talks about Base', at which point my counter-argument would be 'the subtract part drops the word Base, and the increase part doesn't mention what drugs / activating wired reflexes / other forms of gaining extra dice during turns do, so I'm going to go with 'changes to TOTAL initiative dice are processed and the stressing of Base dice is a poor choice'.'
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: JudgeMonroe on <04-09-19/1837:12>
Then there's the question of whether an ordinary dude with a commlink and AR perception has a Persona.
Quote
AUGMENTED REALITY
[...]Your persona can go anywhere in the Matrix using
this view.[...]
When in AR, you use your normal Initiative and Initiative
Dice.

You're asking 'do I add X dice and subtract Y dice initiative score', but it doesn't strike me as a proper question. The rules you reference are very clear after all. You have a certain amount of initiative dice in mode A. You switch to mode B, which has a different amount. The rules are very explicit that if you gain/lose dice, you roll the extra or the loss.

Rather than arguing about 'would we add AND subtract', the proper argument to make would be 'hey, page 159 talks about Base vs Total and page 160 only talks about Base', at which point my counter-argument would be 'the subtract part drops the word Base, and the increase part doesn't mention what drugs / activating wired reflexes / other forms of gaining extra dice during turns do, so I'm going to go with 'changes to TOTAL initiative dice are processed and the stressing of Base dice is a poor choice'.'

In other words, RAW says drugs and wired reflexes can make a decker faster in VR, so Improved Reflexes should make a character faster in Astral. Your counter argument doesn't suggest that you would remove previous active bonuses from initiative dice when changing modes, which is the case I was trying to illustrate with "add AND subtract" ("-1D6 because wired reflexes no longer provide a bonus and +2D6 because cold sim" or whatever). The missing rule is one that ties *bonuses* to Initiative Types, which Calibration takes to an absurd result, IMO ("I overclocked your commlink, now you can shoot faster").
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Marcus on <04-09-19/1847:41>
Wired would work for AR as that's meat world initiative you just suffer The distraction penalty. But wired has no effect for VR, Matrix initiative is separate  (p 229 core) and is not effected by reaction at all. (Data processing + Int).

Wired also won't effect Astral Initiative (p 313 core).

Now Drugs, Combat drugs won't work on ether a drug that boosts Int works, but it's not gonna add dice, those dice come from the state.   
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Cabral on <04-09-19/2204:29>
Mirikon is correct that the spell specifies that it adds to Reaction on Surprise Tests. But I believe (if my sentence parsing skills are up to snuff) that the comma after Surprise Tests means that the following phrase is a separate clause from the preceding one. Michael Chandra already pointed this out.
Page 286 "Every hit on the Spellcasting Test adds 1 die for Reaction on Surprise Tests."
The spells adds 1 DIE FOR Reaction on Surprise tests, not TO Reaction. Both the capitalization of "reaction" and the use of "die for" instead of "to" make RAW/RAI questionable.

I think the intent is fairly clear that it is a bonus to the surprise test in situations where you are reacting. It helps you avoid surprise, but does not help surprise others. If it added 1 to Reaction, the augmented limit would apply.

Key considerations
The first two bullets support that it is a bonus to the test, not the attribute.
The third bullet supports that it is a bonus to the attribute, not to the test. Please keep in mind, however, that no other place (at least that I can recall) words a bonus to an attribute in this fashion.

Assuming that it is correct that it is a bonus to the test, it would have been cleaner to say "...adds 1 die to avoid being surprised" or "... adds 1 die on Surprise Tests when defending."
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Kiirnodel on <04-10-19/0417:44>
Cabral,
I'm not sure there is an inherent distinction for them using the word "for" in this instance. The fact that "Reaction" is capitalized (in my mind) means that it is referring to the attribute, not a generic reacting to surprise.


JudgeMonroe,
While Astral, you cannot be affected by Physical spells, so Increase Reflexes does not work, full stop.
In regard to your question about how to handle the bookkeeping of initiative changes, it is probably easier to look at what is changing about the values rather than trying to recalculate everything from scratch each time.

Easy Spell Example: A magician casts an Increase Reflexes spell to enhance their initiative. They get 5 hits, which means they get 2 extra dice and +5 bonus initiative. They immediately roll those extra dice (getting a total of 6) and thus their current initiative immediately increases by 11. Later on, the spell gets countered, reducing the hits by 3, so they lose some of that effectiveness, the bonus has dropped by 3 points and 1 extra die. After rolling a 5 (ouch), they get a total of 8, so their current initiative would immediately drop by 8. If they dropped the spell entirely it would drop again by whatever that last die roll would be and two more.

Real World to Matrix Example: A rigger starts out in the real world, driving their car the good ol' fashioned way. When the drek hits the turbine they drop into VR to start rigging a drone instead. If they are switching to Cold Sim with no extra effects, and had 2d6 dice in the real world (like in your example), their dice are increasing by 1 die (from 2d6 to 3d6). Additionally, we would want to know the difference between their Reaction and their Data Processing on their device they are accessing the Matrix with. Assuming a DP of 6 and a Reaction of 7, with a roll of 3, this means their initiative would change by +2 (+3 from dice, and -1 from Reaction to Data Processing). Nothing else is changing so there isn't any reason to over-complicate things. IF they then switched to Hot-Sim then they would just add one more die. Or if they switched back to Meat-space then we would roll the dice they are losing (2 dice if we continue from Hot Sim) and give them back that +1 for their Reaction being 1 higher than Data Processing.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: JudgeMonroe on <04-10-19/1153:50>
Quote
In regard to your question about how to handle the bookkeeping of initiative changes, it is probably easier to look at what is changing about the values rather than trying to recalculate everything from scratch each time.

I think this depends on what ends up being less work. Sometimes it's probably easier to generate a whole new initiative score and subtract 10 for each IP already consumed. But the paperwork isn't really the point of my experiment, it's the hole in the rules that lets this thread grow to 2 pages in the first place, and whether what everyone seems to think is an obvious common sense approach reduces to absurdity or not.

I'm willing to throw rules away that are obviously incorrect or printed in error (is Astral Initiative 2D6 or 3D6? Don't answer that.) but there are times when the rules are simply quiet. In the case of Initiative, it is a problem that they forgot to put Typed Bonuses into the rules at the same time they put in Typed Initiative, which is one reason charts like the one on page 159 list "Rigging AR" and "Matrix AR" as separate types of Initiative even though they're exactly the same and there's never any (AFAIK) distinction between the two in any other rules or bonus. If you were going to put in Typed Bonuses then it would make sense to refer to them as separate Initiative Types. But I digress.

A common sense reading says that if the word "Initiative" is used alone in a rule, then it should refer to standard, meat-world, base Physical Initiative. Wired Reflexes, street drugs, physical spells, etc., all affect Physical Initiative and you should lose these bonuses if you switch to a different Initiative Type according to the Changing Initiative rules. Those rules don't actually say you lose these bonuses (or any bonuses) when you change initiative types, only that you adjust initiative according to the new base values or wound modifiers. So we're already in RAI or House Rule territory.

Then there's the complication of Mixed Initiative. A user with Matrix AR (or Rigging AR) Initiative can take Physical or Matrix actions on his turn. Physical and both AR Initiative Types are calculated in the same way, and switching from Physical to AR doesn't trigger a change in Initiative calculation unless you take away the Physical bonuses. Why would you, though? The character can still take physical actions on his turn, or he can take a Matrix Action. You're stuck saying that either Wired Reflexes benefit a Matrix Action or that they stop working when you use AR.

Does a dual-natured character switch to Astral Initiative when he begins perceiving the Astral? It's effectively the same as switching to AR. He can still take physical actions when doing so, but can engage in Astral Combat at the same time. But on what Initiative and with what bonuses? Either he keeps his Physical Initiative (and benefits from those bonuses on Astral Tasks) or switches (and loses those bonuses on Physical Tasks).

Am I incorrect? What in RAW solves the Mixed Initiative problem?
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Kiirnodel on <04-10-19/1701:01>
There is no Matrix AR initiative. You use your normal physical initiative. You even quoted it earlier: "When in AR, you use your normal Initiative and Initiative
Dice."

You don't use your normal initiative in situations where your consciousness is separated from your body. In VR, you've detached your mind from your body and are using the speed of the Matrix. Likewise, when you Astrally Project, you are no longer interacting with your physical body. In situations where you are interacting with both, you are still using your normal initiative.

Edit: And yes, things that add to normal Initiative do not, by default, add to the special initiatives of the Matrix or Astral.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Marcus on <04-10-19/2351:00>
A dual-nature person perceives both and is uses normal initiative. Their initiative will only change upon projecting into astral.

Judge the answers to your questions are found on page 160 of the core Section titled Changing Initiative.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Cabral on <04-11-19/2057:33>
Cabral,
I'm not sure there is an inherent distinction for them using the word "for" in this instance. The fact that "Reaction" is capitalized (in my mind) means that it is referring to the attribute, not a generic reacting to surprise.
I completely see that point of view. If SR was as carefully worded (and edited) as 3.5 DnD or if the pattern was not completely divergent from standards (both in the sense of modifying attributes and modifying tests), I would agree with you. I think either way you side, you have a good basis for the ruling. Reaction is capitalized, but you are adding dice, which only add to tests, not attributes.

I thought I put that caveat in the original post, but I must have edited it out and forgotten to add it back in.  ;D
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-13-19/0302:00>
There is no Matrix AR initiative. You use your normal physical initiative. You even quoted it earlier: "When in AR, you use your normal Initiative and Initiative
Dice."

You don't use your normal initiative in situations where your consciousness is separated from your body. In VR, you've detached your mind from your body and are using the speed of the Matrix. Likewise, when you Astrally Project, you are no longer interacting with your physical body. In situations where you are interacting with both, you are still using your normal initiative.

Edit: And yes, things that add to normal Initiative do not, by default, add to the special initiatives of the Matrix or Astral.
Mind you, the rules could be a tad clearer (like the base-dice thingy), to the point where we can obviously even debate over RAW, nevermind RAI. But yeah, these 3 are noted as very specifically different kinds of Initiative under the rules.

The consciousness-statement you're providing is quite nice, since it illustrates the difference between AR and VR, as well as Dual-Natured vs fully-Astral.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Marcus on <04-13-19/1226:18>
I do really think the game would be well served by a way to boost initiative in AR and only while in AR, without going into Wired, I know we have boosted reflexes, and maybe if they introduced back in the more advanced level of that it might be good, but i just feel like AR is a sticking point in the decker running around with the party concept.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Mirikon on <04-13-19/1801:27>
I do really think the game would be well served by a way to boost initiative in AR and only while in AR, without going into Wired, I know we have boosted reflexes, and maybe if they introduced back in the more advanced level of that it might be good, but i just feel like AR is a sticking point in the decker running around with the party concept.
Well, the decker has pretty much always been a character who either tried to hamstring himself in order to keep going with the party, or they found someplace safe (or safe enough) to go VR and do what they needed to do, all the while hoping that no one came along and shot them in the face while they were diving the Matrix. There was a REASON why matrix types did their very best to stay in the nice, safe van if they had anything resembling a choice in the matter.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Cabral on <04-13-19/2055:26>
I do really think the game would be well served by a way to boost initiative in AR and only while in AR, without going into Wired, I know we have boosted reflexes, and maybe if they introduced back in the more advanced level of that it might be good, but i just feel like AR is a sticking point in the decker running around with the party concept.
There's EARRS (or whatever it abbreviates to). It may be kind of what you're looking for. It let's you use your VR initiative, but physical actions take a big penalty (-10?). It's from Kill Code.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Marcus on <04-13-19/2230:46>
I do really think the game would be well served by a way to boost initiative in AR and only while in AR, without going into Wired, I know we have boosted reflexes, and maybe if they introduced back in the more advanced level of that it might be good, but i just feel like AR is a sticking point in the decker running around with the party concept.
There's EARRS (or whatever it abbreviates to). It may be kind of what you're looking for. It let's you use your VR initiative, but physical actions take a big penalty (-10?). It's from Kill Code.

Yeah I know what your talking about but your right that the penalty is to big to over come realistically.

Well, the decker has pretty much always been a character who either tried to hamstring himself in order to keep going with the party, or they found someplace safe (or safe enough) to go VR and do what they needed to do, all the while hoping that no one came along and shot them in the face while they were diving the Matrix. There was a REASON why matrix types did their very best to stay in the nice, safe van if they had anything resembling a choice in the matter.

Your right about all of that Mirikon, but it doesn't change the fact that something could be done to help effect change to the issue.
 
The wireless thing was super popular in 4th, and I'll be the first to admit cellphone hacking also killed decking, which no one wants a repeat of. But surely we can find a happy medium between the two points. Being tier 2 combat and tier 2 decking isn't like a horrible concept. You can achieve this to some meaningful degree but it's despite of the system not in cooperation with the system.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Cabral on <04-14-19/2253:09>
Well, the decker has pretty much always been a character who either tried to hamstring himself in order to keep going with the party, or they found someplace safe (or safe enough) to go VR and do what they needed to do, all the while hoping that no one came along and shot them in the face while they were diving the Matrix. There was a REASON why matrix types did their very best to stay in the nice, safe van if they had anything resembling a choice in the matter.

Your right about all of that Mirikon, but it doesn't change the fact that something could be done to help effect change to the issue.
 
The wireless thing was super popular in 4th, and I'll be the first to admit cellphone hacking also killed decking, which no one wants a repeat of. But surely we can find a happy medium between the two points. Being tier 2 combat and tier 2 decking isn't like a horrible concept. You can achieve this to some meaningful degree but it's despite of the system not in cooperation with the system.
I disagree.

I think decker in a box agents were more problematic. Cyberdecks didn't need a comeback; they could have taken a middle of the road approach with hacking capable commlink costs versus basic commlinks. The decker gear spike overdid it in 5e and the only thing the  return of cyberdecks fixed was Bull's cosplay.  ;D

I am also a big fan of characters can support fill multiple roles as a support character. For example, a secondary decker to assist the primary or to take on parallel tasks. However, I want to see characters who have those talents, not characters with bots (aside from riggers).

I think 4e had an echo Technomancers could take to enhance their initiative. I thought it affected meat initiative, but it looks like either 5e changed it to VR only or I misremembered it ever affecting normal initiative.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: PiXeL01 on <04-14-19/2353:25>
Kill Code has an echo that boosts Technomancers’ Initiative in meat space.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: mcv on <04-16-19/0641:21>
It seems the consensus here is that Matrix/VR initiative does not add to regular Initiative, but is a completely separate form of initiative. But Matrix AR uses regular/physical initiative. If this is the case, then it's possible for a decker with Wired Reflexes to be faster in AR than in VR (while invulnerable to biofeedback).

A few years ago I asked a question about this on https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/35959/can-ar-decking-be-better-than-cold-sim-vr (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/35959/can-ar-decking-be-better-than-cold-sim-vr), and the top rated answer there was that regular initiative is not just physical initiative, but the base initiative on which all others build. So Wired Reflexes would also add to Matrix/VR initiative.

I didn't ask whether it also adds to astral. That still seems unlikely, but is less of an issue because the boundary between astral and physical is clearer. AR is the thing that really muddies it.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-16-19/0723:59>
An AR decker might be faster, but also much poorer (due to spending so much on the ware) and will not have the Hotsim bonus. So yes, you could spend tons of cash on the ultimate AR-decker, but in the end they're still 2 dice behind.

Incidentally, I see that top-answer has the claim that WR adds to 'all' the initiatives, which would automatically mean Astral.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: mcv on <04-16-19/0905:37>
Yeah, my big question is whether that top answer is wrong or not. Most people here seem to claim it's wrong.

If it's correct, then decking in AR certainly seems like an attractive option, especially for a part-time decker. You could have a decker that could also be a decent (and certainly quick) street samurai. But even for decking, the real comparison is with cold-sim VR, which doesn't get the bonus, but still gets biofeedback, and leaves the decker incapable of doing anything else. The AR decker could keep moving, interact alternatingly with meat space and cyberspace, and be very fast in both. Sacrificing two dice to be immune to the physical biofeedback of hit-sim VR does not strike me as a terrible deal.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-16-19/0915:29>
It's a good trick yes. Just don't forget your distraction penalties when dealing with both.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: mcv on <04-16-19/1000:42>
Do you get distraction penalties? I thought AR is generally assumed to be always on. I've also never heard of a penalty for using the Matrix in AR.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-16-19/1004:51>
Possibly, yes:
Quote from: Augmented Reality (p229)
If your attention is really focused
on your AR display and not your surroundings,
your gamemaster may impose a –2 dice pool penalty on
any Perception tests you make to notice things going on
around you in physical space.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: mcv on <04-16-19/1027:12>
Sure, but again, still better than not being able to perceive at all.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Marcus on <04-16-19/1034:22>
If your asking if can boost physical initiative above base vr, the answer is yes. This is not new nor is it surprising. We been joking about cold SIM adept hackers for years. That concept is just an adept with max initiative boost sitting at keyboard going as fast as vr Decker.

Doing it from ar isn't new ether in a different sense. There are many on here who miss 4e decking cabral for instance disagreed with my call for hybred decking saying we need more hybreed decking lol. Which all very normal for this board.

Anyways the distraction penalty is a pain, but it's dealable.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <04-16-19/1242:50>
An AR decker might be faster, but also much poorer (due to spending so much on the ware) and will not have the Hotsim bonus. So yes, you could spend tons of cash on the ultimate AR-decker, but in the end they're still 2 dice behind.

Being immune to biofeedback is a tradeoff that can situational be quite worth the -2 dice handicap.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on <04-16-19/1312:06>
Reception Enhancer, Chrome Flesh, Page 118
10K Nuyen (Availability of only 4) and 0.2 Essence.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-16-19/1342:45>
An AR decker might be faster, but also much poorer (due to spending so much on the ware) and will not have the Hotsim bonus. So yes, you could spend tons of cash on the ultimate AR-decker, but in the end they're still 2 dice behind.

Being immune to biofeedback is a tradeoff that can situational be quite worth the -2 dice handicap.
True. I'd stick to drugs rather than Wired Reflexes though. Just beware of the crash. :P
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Marcus on <04-16-19/1455:34>
For the record not having a two die bonus is not the same thing as a penalty. At this stage in 5e there is no shortage of ways to run up a pool. It's simply a question of ether hitting the velue you want or when diminishing returns makes it not worth pursuing any longer
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: Cabral on <04-16-19/2024:19>
Yeah, my big question is whether that top answer is wrong or not. Most people here seem to claim it's wrong.
That top answer is definitely wrong. Brutus's comment that the adept power Improved Reflexes doesn't stack with Boosted Attribute: Reaction is also wrong, but I am less certain about this one. I believe they both stack, but are limited by the augmented maximum for reaction.

Reference page 101. It has 5 initiatives, each with it's own formula. Only "initiative" is affected by augmentation. I believe that it is an error that the augmentation column is blank for Matrix AR Initiative; it is contradicted by page 229 ("you use your normal initiative for AR"). It may have been corrected in the errata.
Title: Re: Increased Reflexes and Combat Sense in Astral
Post by: mcv on <04-17-19/0516:08>
Does someone want to write the right answer there? I'll gladly accept it if everybody here agrees that the current answer on stackexchange is wrong. It wouldn't do to leave an incorrect answer as the top ranked answer there.