[Michael Chandra]

We literally still have raw debates on sr5 rules that sr6 solved with a single paragraph. People have rightfully complained about the poor editing in SR5 Core. I've been through the entire book and making notes and some sections may be marred with change blindness but I do not at all consider it worse than the hot mess of SR5. Everything you claim SR6 has, SR5 had equal or worse.

[topcat]

Where can we put up items for errata in SR6?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Where can we put up items for errata in SR6?

Here.

The errata team is, in what is hopefully an understandable way, rather busy right now so you may not get immediate feedback. Especially if something you mention is already under review as specifics of what's going on with pending errata is still under NDA.

However whatever you put there WILL be seen.

[Typhus]

As amusing as it is watching a fight for last place happen, if a person could deal with what was in 5E, you could at least play it the way it was intended from the gate.  6E cannot make that claim.  The character generation is incomplete, imbalanced, and unclear.  Numerous places it does not have obvious counterbalance rules and clarification statements, and it's outright missing how many tables?  You are literally selling a book of rules that is not correctly nor completely instructing the players on how to play the game, confusing language aside.

The difference is not subjective here, it's quantifiable.  That justifies bolder action than just granular errata.  As I go through this, the only fix in some places is literally to rewrite certain whole sections of the rules entirely to make a rule or concept understandable, and/or to add numerous additional rules and a paragraph or two of explanations to solidify.  That's not a whoopsie-doodle level fix encompassed by the notion of errata.  This is an intervention-level occurrence that warrants its own "stop the presses" type action plan.  Don't let the decision makers evade this reality with excuses and pushback to you.

If you don't see that, I think Stockholm Syndrome is setting in.  That's hyperbolic maybe, but its a true thing that when people work for an abusive boss for a long time, nonsense becomes normalized.  From the outside looking in, This Is Not Normal.  This Is Nonsense.

Get up above this for a minute if you still can. 

You are going to put in hours of uncompensated time and stress for what?  For a game company that is going to turn around and do this to you all over again with the very next release.  You are enabling their disinterest in changing their ways, and paying a price on their behalf.  There's an opportunity here to for them to regain the gaming community's trust and support with a genuine mea culpa, and plea to help them fix the issue, followed by a commitment not to repeat it.  Trying to ride the errata wagon is asking to buy a seat on the bus on the way off the cliff. 

I'm out here screaming because when I was in shoes like these, people tried to tell me to see things like this, and I chose not to, telling myself it could all work out.  Every time.  It never once did.  People still tried, and if I'd listened, it could have been different.  So I'm trying. 

Sometimes is not just okay to say to the boss that they messed up.  Sometimes it is necessary for the good of the business.  5E was not one of those times.  6E quantifiably is.

I wish you all the luck and good words you can find.

[Hephaestus]

I'm in the process of reading through CRB6, and it's pretty meh. Here's a few things I have so far:

The streamlining is not in that you have less passes but in less paperwork. Easier to handle bonuses, no constant -10 and -5 you have to process. As someone who's actually played it, I can confirm that it DOES save time. Utter newbies took two entire rounds of learning time and then they knew exactly what they were doing.

Edge isn't luck anymore. They were very clear about that. No idea why you'd claim otherwise.

They were very clear why they did that chargen restriction on gear. Opening the toolbox they called it in the very first SR6 interview. Again, no idea why you're acting surprised after they have been publicly open about it from the very start.

MC, I'm not surprised by these things. I did try to keep up with the pre-release info, and I still tried to keep an open mind. As for your comments:

- There are still many ways to manipulate your initiative in combat, from active status effects to just dropping a couple edge once to somehow become faster for the rest of the combat.

- Edge isn't luck anymore, its advantage. I get that. But when you say my advantage is to reach across the table and mess with my opponents dice pool (even after rolling), then its not my advantage anymore. Its my ability to put my opponent at a disadvantage, and triggers the kind of "gotcha" moments that most people hate. And if we can do it to NPCs, they can do it to us, which just encourages GMs to frag over their players.

- There is a huge difference between "opening up the toolbox" and dumping the thing on floor. In the weapons section alone, there are 84 melee and ranged weapon entries (not counting grenades or rockets), and only 10 are illegal. And not one of them is above availability 6. as a Decker, I can come out of chargen with a rating 6 Cyberjack and the second best Cyberdeck in the game, with money to spare, without converting karma to nuyen. The flip side of this is that Riggers got kicked in the nethers even harder than in 5th. Control rigs are more expensive, and RCCs are the only thing on your network with data Processing and Firewall that cannot contribute to a persona.

The issue with gear really bothers me. While its cool for one-shot adventures and missions play, it kills the drive for gear advancement. If there is nothing to aspire to have, what good is getting paid beyond supporting your lifestyle? Runners are supposed to struggle, to aspire to have more, to want a better life. This system doesn't support that.

[incrdbil]

After looking at the core book at GenCon, the errata..well, I'm going to have to pass on this edition, along with the rest off my playing group. In the end, the bones of 6e, the changes it forces , the basic edge system something I extremely dislike and does not bring enough merit to encourage me to adopt the system.  There are concepts I might fish out of it to apply to my 5e game. Certain source books for adventures and plot,  maybe I'll still purchase, but I might wait for the used market because I don't want my purchases to send a muddled message of support, as thats the only language that matters or is listened to. I've never sat out an edition of Shadowrun before, but I have other games, and its not the end of the world. Not every swing of the bat be a home run, or even a base hit.  Maybe 7e will get the game back on track, and I look forward to that release.

[mortonstromgal]

As amusing as it is watching a fight for last place happen, if a person could deal with what was in 5E, you could at least play it the way it was intended from the gate. 

No you couldn't, dwarves didn't even have thermographic vision for MONTHS after the 5e launch. This is standard CGL, 4e had two different costs for attributes in the core book which they fixed in 4eA. 5e took about 6 months for the pdf to get sorted out and much longer for print runs to happen. 6e is just standard operating procedure for CGL. Frankly each edition with them needs to bake for two years and then come out with a .5 or A or whatever you want to call it.

[Michael Chandra]

Wasn't 4e from another company and CGL released 4eA?_?

5e took years before any errata made it into the pdf. =/

[FastJack]

Wasn't 4e from another company and CGL released 4eA?_?

5e took years before any errata made it into the pdf. =/

1989 - 1st Edition was Fasa
1992 - 2nd Edition was Fasa's 1st Edition with errata
1998 - 3rd Edition was Fasa, then reprinted (2004) by WZGames/FanPro
2005 - 4th Edition was WZGames/FanPro's rewrite
2009 - 4th Anniversary was Catalyst doing an errata on W/F 4th Edition
2013 - 5th Edition was Catalyst rewrite
2016 - 5th Edition Master Index was Catalyst with errata(?)
2019 - 6th Edition from Catalyst

[Typhus]

No you couldn't,

I stand corrected.  I fully admit to not being able to complete the process of character generation from frustration with the rules.  Plus it was six years ago. 

[Hephaestus]

1989 - 1st Edition was Fasa
1992 - 2nd Edition was Fasa's 1st Edition with errata
1998 - 3rd Edition was Fasa, then reprinted (2004) by WZGames/FanPro
2005 - 4th Edition was WZGames/FanPro's rewrite
2009 - 4th Anniversary was Catalyst doing an errata on W/F 4th Edition
2013 - 5th Edition was Catalyst rewrite
2016 - 5th Edition Master Index was Catalyst with errata(?)
2019 - 6th Edition from Catalyst

So, this game has a long tradition of the game creators fragging over their players? I was previously unaware that the bar was set so low for so long. This edition was a chance to prove that CGL could set the bar higher for themselves and come out with a polished product that could engage veteran and new players. But they didn't.

So did SR5. TONS. Of which most were never resolved. And what did get fixed eventually wasn't as fine grained as the hotfix is doing now. 

Fine grained responses are great if there aren't glaringly large issues that need to be addressed first. This edition needs a lot of work. It should not have been released in the condition its in. The hotfix proves this because the things in the hotfix should have been caught in the editing and review phase before the printed version ever went to production.

[FastJack]

Yeah, pretty much from day one, this game was hard to play and had a lot of rules rewrites as time went on, especially with Magic & Matrix issues. But, in all honesty, I play for the setting and stories. I'm liking what I'm reading for 6E and think that it's one of the cleanest versions around yet.

But, it is true they've had a lot of rewrites and versions through the years. In case you haven't noticed there's a lot of companies that have the same long history of "fragging over their players":

Dungeons & Dragons Versions
1974 - Original Dungeons & Dragons
1977 - Advanced Dungeons & Dragons
1977 - BECMI Dungeons & Dragons
1989 - Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition
1991 - Dungeons & Dragons (Rules Cyclopedia)
1994 - Classic Dungeons & Dragons
2000 - Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition
2003 - Dungeons & Dragons 3.5
2008 - Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition
2010 - Dungeons & Dragons Essentials
2014 - Dungeson & Dragons 5th Edition

Call of Cthulhu
1981 - 1st Edition
1983 - 2nd Edition
1986 - 3rd Edition
1989 - 4th Edition
1992 - 5th Edition
1998 - Edition 5.5
1999 - Edition 5.6
2001 - 20th Anniversary Edition
2004 - 6th Edition
2014 - 7th Edition

Vampire: The Masquerade (Not counting Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Mage: The Ascension, Wraith: The Oblivion, Changeling: The Dreaming, Hunter: The Beckoning, Mummy: The Resurrection, Kindred of the East, and Demon; The Fallen)
1991 - 1st Edition
1992 - 2nd Edition
1998 - Revised Edition
2011 - 20th Anniversary Edition
2018 - 5th Edition

Star Wars RPG
1987 - Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game (West End Games)
1992 - 2nd Edition (WEG)
1996 - 2nd Edition - Revised and Expanded (WEG)
Star Wars (WotC)
2000 - Star Wars: Roleplaying Game (Wizards of the Coast)
2002 - Revised Core Rulebook (WotC)
2007 - Saga Edition (WotC)
Star Wars (FFG)
2012 - Star Wars Roleplaying Game (Fantasy Flight Games)
2013 - Edge of the Empire (FFG)
2014 - Age of Rebellion (FFG)
2015 - Force and Destiny (FFG)

GURPS (Steve Jackson Games)
1986 - GURPS (1st AND 2nd Edition)
1988 - 3rd Edition
2004 - 4th Edition

Paranoia RPG
1984 - 1st Edition (WEG)
1987 - 2nd Edition (WEG)
1995 - "5th" (3rd) Edition (WEG)
1997 - Unrelease 3rd Edition (WEG)
2004 - Paranoia XP (Mongoose Publishing)
2009 - 25th Anniversary Edition
2014 - Kickstarter Edition

Cyberpunk 2020
1989 - Cyberpunk (R. Talsorian Games)
1990 - Cyberpunk 2020 (R. Talsorian Games)
1993 - Cybergeneration (R. Talsorian Games)
2005 - Cyberpunk 203X (R. Talsorian Games)
2019 - Cyberpunk Red (R. Talsorian Games)

Traveller (Game Designs Workshop)
1977 - Classic Traveller (1E Games Design Workshop)
1986 - MegaTraveller (2E GDW)
1992 - Traveller: The New Era (3E GDW)
1996 - Marc Miller's Traveller (4E Imperium Games)
1998 - GURPS Traveller (5E Steve Jackson Games)
2002 - Traveller D20 (6E QuikLink Interactive)
2006 - Traveler Hero (7E ComStar Games)
2008 - Mongoose Traveller (8E Mongoose Publishing)
2013 - Traveller 5 (9E Far Future Enterprises)

BattleTech
1984 - BattleDroids (FASA)
1985 - BattleTech, 2nd Edition (FASA)
1992 - 3rd Edition (FASA)
1996 - 4th Edition (FASA)
2007 - Classic BattleTech (Catalyst Game Labs)
2011 - 25th Anniversary Box Set (CGL)
2013 - Introductory Box Set (CGL)

1986 - MechWarrior (FASA)
1991 - 2nd Edition (FASA)
1999 - 3rd Edition (FASA)
2006 - Classic Battletech RPG (FanPro)
2009 - BattleTech: A Time of War (CGL)

[tenchi2a]

Yeah, pretty much from day one, this game was hard to play and had a lot of rules rewrites as time went on, especially with Magic & Matrix issues. But, in all honesty, I play for the setting and stories. I'm liking what I'm reading for 6E and think that it's one of the cleanest versions around yet.

But, it is true they've had a lot of rewrites and versions through the years. In case you haven't noticed there's a lot of companies that have the same long history of "fragging over their players":

Dungeons & Dragons Versions
1991 - Dungeons & Dragons (Rules Cyclopedia): This was not a rewrite it was a consolidation of multiple level of play boxes.
1994 - Classic Dungeons & Dragons : name says it all.
2000 - Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition: first major change in years
2003 - Dungeons & Dragons 3.5: will give you one.
2008 - Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition: was a complete rewrite of the system to get gamers from MMOs (sound familiar)
2010 - Dungeons & Dragons Essentials: Was a consolidation of rules and a manga style pitch.
2014 - Dungeson & Dragons 5th Edition: was WoTCs attempt fix there image after 4th.

Call of Cthulhu
1981 - 1st Edition
1983 - 2nd Edition
1986 - 3rd Edition
1989 - 4th Edition
1992 - 5th Edition
1998 - Edition 5.5
1999 - Edition 5.6
2001 - 20th Anniversary Edition
2004 - 6th Edition
2014 - 7th Edition
About the standard for time between games during the times listed.

Vampire: The Masquerade (Not counting Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Mage: The Ascension, Wraith: The Oblivion, Changeling: The Dreaming, Hunter: The Beckoning, Mummy: The Resurrection, Kindred of the East, and Demon; The Fallen)
1991 - 1st Edition
1992 - 2nd Edition
1998 - Revised Edition
2011 - 20th Anniversary Edition
2018 - 5th Edition
About the standard for time between games during the times listed.

Star Wars RPG
1987 - Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game (West End Games)
1992 - 2nd Edition (WEG)
1996 - 2nd Edition - Revised and Expanded (WEG)
About the standard for time between games during the times listed.

Star Wars (WotC)
2000 - Star Wars: Roleplaying Game (Wizards of the Coast)
2002 - Revised Core Rulebook (WotC)
2007 - Saga Edition (WotC)
Star Wars (FFG)
2012 - Star Wars Roleplaying Game (Fantasy Flight Games): Not sure if you are talk about the intro box or the beta book.
2013 - Edge of the Empire (FFG)
2014 - Age of Rebellion (FFG)
2015 - Force and Destiny (FFG)
The last three are different aspects of star wars (fringers, rebels, jedi) and while I don't like it they were up front with the layout from the beginning

GURPS (Steve Jackson Games)
1986 - GURPS (1st AND 2nd Edition)
1988 - 3rd Edition
2004 - 4th Edition
really, 16 years between 3rd and 4th and you put it on the list.

Paranoia RPG
1984 - 1st Edition (WEG)
1987 - 2nd Edition (WEG)
1995 - "5th" (3rd) Edition (WEG)
1997 - Unrelease 3rd Edition (WEG)
2004 - Paranoia XP (Mongoose Publishing)
2009 - 25th Anniversary Edition
2014 - Kickstarter Edition

Cyberpunk 2020
1989 - Cyberpunk (R. Talsorian Games)
1990 - Cyberpunk 2020 (R. Talsorian Games)
1993 - Cybergeneration (R. Talsorian Games)
2005 - Cyberpunk 203X (R. Talsorian Games)
2019 - Cyberpunk Red (R. Talsorian Games)

Traveller (Game Designs Workshop)
1977 - Classic Traveller (1E Games Design Workshop)
1986 - MegaTraveller (2E GDW)
1992 - Traveller: The New Era (3E GDW)
1996 - Marc Miller's Traveller (4E Imperium Games)
1998 - GURPS Traveller (5E Steve Jackson Games)
2002 - Traveller D20 (6E QuikLink Interactive)
2006 - Traveler Hero (7E ComStar Games)
2008 - Mongoose Traveller (8E Mongoose Publishing)
2013 - Traveller 5 (9E Far Future Enterprises)

BattleTech
1984 - BattleDroids (FASA)
1985 - BattleTech, 2nd Edition (FASA): where forced to change the name to avoid lawsuit.
1992 - 3rd Edition (FASA)
1996 - 4th Edition (FASA)
2007 - Classic BattleTech (Catalyst Game Labs)
2011 - 25th Anniversary Box Set (CGL)
2013 - Introductory Box Set (CGL)
then standard  spread.

1986 - MechWarrior (FASA)
1991 - 2nd Edition (FASA)
1999 - 3rd Edition (FASA)
2006 - Classic Battletech RPG (FanPro)
2009 - BattleTech: A Time of War (CGL)
About the standard for time between games during the times listed.

not sure what any of this proved.
most was misrepresented, and what wasn't was the standard spread between games at that time.
The issues is CGL releasing a game(s) that are know to need errata and having mechanics issues even before they are printed and sold as complete ready to go books.

So the "fragging over their players" is in response them knowing the issues and going ahead with printing and sale, not the number of editions they have put out over the years which in truth was low for RPG games.

[FastJack]

You say potato...

My point is you can look at the times between editions, the different publishing companies, any of the factors in the list. When I posted the the Shadowrun list, the first response was that the game owners were “fragging  over the players”, which was not my opinion.

My point is if you like the current edition, you’ll say the list is proof that they worked to improve to get to the current, while if you don’t like the current, you’ll say it’s proof that the developers don’t know what they are doing. In truth, it’s neither, since the gaming landscape is constantly changing and to be successful you have to make a game that people will buy. Even if that means losing long-time fans.

[Michael Chandra]

I liked playing D&D 4e, but after Essentials, aka 'we dun goofed with MM1 and player progression, and we refuse to admit it, so instead we will release basically 4.25 and force you to rebuy your books', I haven't bought a single D&D book again. So I'd say plenty of companies mess up big time.