[Banshee]

*snip*

I think this is one of the inconsistencies of the new matrix. The matrix works in such a way that physical limitations do not exist (Because of techno souls), but at the same time, it is affected by noise and by blackouts.

We might be able to handwave noise as an analog of "background count" instead of actual latency/jitter/etc, but that still doesn't explain why a blackout affects matrix connectivity. Tricky stuff.

Not too difficult to imagine if you assume the "blackout" was a matrix based attack

[0B]

*snip*

I think this is one of the inconsistencies of the new matrix. The matrix works in such a way that physical limitations do not exist (Because of techno souls), but at the same time, it is affected by noise and by blackouts.

We might be able to handwave noise as an analog of "background count" instead of actual latency/jitter/etc, but that still doesn't explain why a blackout affects matrix connectivity. Tricky stuff.

I know.

Personally I think it’s all the most horrendous mess, but I’m fascinated by the folks who seem able to reconcile it all. I don’t know how they do it.

I don't mind hollywood-isms when it comes to the Matrix- it's a game, it'd be foolish to try and replicate everything IRL. But even in magic systems, inconsistency is un-fun.

I think SSDR's most recent post is about the closest you're going to get to a solid understanding of the Matrix. RAW/RAI don't always match, and it's hard to tell when "fluff" ends and "hard rules" begin. Re: multi-attack, even if the author intended for you to attack twice with one weapon, they certainly didn't intend for you to attack twenty-five times. I digress.

*snip*

I think this is one of the inconsistencies of the new matrix. The matrix works in such a way that physical limitations do not exist (Because of techno souls), but at the same time, it is affected by noise and by blackouts.

We might be able to handwave noise as an analog of "background count" instead of actual latency/jitter/etc, but that still doesn't explain why a blackout affects matrix connectivity. Tricky stuff.

Not too difficult to imagine if you assume the "blackout" was a matrix based attack

Yeah, but then that begs the question of why devices didn't simply go into "no network found" or "offline" mode. It's understandable that common consumer devices like cars would stop functioning without the matrix (That happens today), but all electronic devices? I feel like any decker or rigger worth their salt would remove any corp "call home" functions from their deck (If not, then why don't corps track those GPS positions?).

It's a hollywoodism, and honestly I wasn't very satisfied with how 30 Nights resolved things.

[markelphoenix]

This seems even less clear.

Do hosts have a physical location or not?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

This seems even less clear.

Do hosts have a physical location or not?

The RAW is "No, but sometimes Yes."

[Xenon]

So, a key concept here is that Hosts don't have a physical location.

This is less true in 6e, BTW: "Some hosts exist entirely virtually and appear as floating above the black plane of the Matrix, while others are attached to physical hardware at a specific location." (6e CRB pg187)

Yes

A host that is protecting a physical facility is most likely also physically located somewhere inside that facility (in this edition).
And you also get noise due to distance to that host depending on how far away from the physical facility you are.

This is intended.

do you believe you can enter a host while you are stood inside a perfect Faraday cage, with infinite noise between your commlink and every other Matrix device on the planet? If so, how? If not, why not?

If you are in inside a Faraday's cage then you are completely cut off from everything matrix related (unless you are connected via a cable).

But even outside of a Faraday's cage the distance between you and the network (PAN or physical host) matters. As do interfering noise due to inhibiting wallpaper etc between you and the target network. And situational noise (perhaps you are in a spam zone or in a static zone which mean you have a really bad connection).

If noise levels get too high then you can't connect to the network (or your own drone for that matter).

Now with regards to wireless negation technology, that involves physical locations. If Charlie the hacker wants to hack the building's host, then the paint/wallpaper doesn't affect his actions.  How can it, when the host isn't inside the building?

Indeed!

Unless if it is!

And even in 5th edition (where hosts were always virtual and you always had zero distance to them) you still had to fight noise ratings when attacking a slaved device out on the grid (unless you were physically connected to the device or if you attacked the device from within the host it was slaved to).

...noise between icons inside a host...

Noise as a game mechanic is mostly there to make it harder to remote hacking / as incentive to join the team on site.

If your hacker join the team then you normally don't have to worry about noise (there will be no noise due to distance and there will also be no inhibiting noise from wallpaper or paint of the exterior walls etc)

I'm struggling to see what wifi blocking paint does now.

It act as a negative dice pool modifier for remote hackers trying  to access networks (like PANs and physical hosts) located on the other side of the wifi blocking paint.

Because of techno souls

For this edition it seem as if we are given the option to use physical hosts that run on actual hardware.
Feel free to use that ;-)


Slipped by 5 posts while typing this.....
Will reply to them in a separate post :-)

[0B]

This seems even less clear.

Do hosts have a physical location or not?

Yes. CRB, pg 172

Icons whose hosts are closest to your meat body appear closer, with physically far-away hosts seeming out of sight of your virtual perceptions. Of course, physics is just a suggestion within the Matrix, and traveling these distances in the blink of an eye is as simple as willing yourself to your destination. Still other icons and access points
exist, so that people across the globe can log on whever they want.

CRB also talks about addresses being assigned based on physical location (Similar to public IPs IRL), at least for users.

I think the more significant question is "when does this matter?" And, "to what degree?"

There's also the question of if the physical location of a host is simply "what GPS locations is it accessible from" or "where the physical hardware is hosting the host". This may be irrelevant

Edit: Man, this thread is popular. Missed two posts above that may clarify things.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Edit: Man, this thread is popular. Missed two posts above that may clarify things.

I happen to know that some of the people likely contributing to the inevitable matrix book have been watching the thread, and are seeing tricky issues that could use some ironing

[0B]

*snip*

Because of techno souls

For this edition it seem as if we are given the option to use physical hosts that run on actual hardware.
Feel free to use that ;-)

A valid point. Of course if you retcon out techno souls, then you must rely on physical network architecture. Routers, switches, cables, and firewalls are all physical. At minimum, you could say that the Matrix is all a big virtual network sitting on hypervisors. They don't even have to be on-site, plenty of places use the cloud. You would still need access points, be it wireless or wired. And wireless access points will have a range for connectivity.

Then, there are two possibilities:

1. The network* is not connected to the Matrix. Therefore, you must be in range of a wireless access point or directly connected in order to access it.
2. The network* is connected to the Matrix. Latency/jitter is a thing, but you do not need to be in range of the host.

*Edit: AKA Host, I'm still thinking with IT brain

Edit: Man, this thread is popular. Missed two posts above that may clarify things.

I happen to know that some of the people likely contributing to the inevitable matrix book have been watching the thread, and are seeing tricky issues that could use some ironing

Yeah, I think the Matrix itself in 6e has very solid foundations. I don't have any major complaints about it, mechanically speaking. It's just tricky to keep up with which lore is still in play and which lore is retconned.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

*snip*

Because of techno souls

For this edition it seem as if we are given the option to use physical hosts that run on actual hardware.
Feel free to use that ;-)

A valid point. Of course if you retcon out techno souls, then you must rely on physical network architecture. Routers, switches, cables, and firewalls are all physical. At minimum, you could say that the Matrix is all a big virtual network sitting on hypervisors. They don't even have to be on-site, plenty of places use the cloud. You would still need access points, be it wireless or wired. And wireless access points will have a range for connectivity.

Then, there are two possibilities:

1. The network* is not connected to the Matrix. Therefore, you must be in range of a wireless access point or directly connected in order to access it.
2. The network* is connected to the Matrix. Latency/jitter is a thing, but you do not need to be in range of the host.

*Edit: AKA Host, I'm still thinking with IT brain

Even if you do retcon out the techno-souls angle, it doesn't change the mechanical truth that the matrix operates on rules that literally are not grounded by reality. It STILL may as well be magic, even if physical computers located somewhere on earth are necessary.

So if you want to hack your corner stuffer shack, it's almost guaranteed that its particular host is not running off a server somewhere on its premises, but rather at a regional HQ compound somewhere.  A mom and pop "stop-n-rob" rather than a part of a global franchise?  There's next to zero chance they're not just hiring out the running and upkeep of their own host to some corporation that offers that service (looking at you Renraku... data services is basically what they do).  Either way...if there IS physical machinery running a host in many cases that machinery has absolutely no correlation to the physical location for an associated building.  Grampa Olaf's liquor store host is more likely to be run from a computer in Neo-Tokyo than from inside his physical store that happens to be in Seattle.

And... you're still going to want to ignore distance-based Noise.

[0B]

*snip*
Even if you do retcon out the techno-souls angle, it doesn't change the mechanical truth that the matrix operates on rules that literally are not grounded by reality. It STILL may as well be magic, even if physical computers located somewhere on earth are necessary.

So if you want to hack your corner stuffer shack, it's almost guaranteed that its particular host is not running off a server somewhere on its premises, but rather at a regional HQ compound somewhere.  A mom and pop "stop-n-rob" rather than a part of a global franchise?  There's next to zero chance they're not just hiring out the running and upkeep of their own host to some corporation that offers that service (looking at you Renraku... data services is basically what they do).  Either way...if there IS physical machinery running a host in many cases that machinery has absolutely no correlation to the physical location for an associated building.  Grampa Olaf's liquor store host is more likely to be run from a computer in Neo-Tokyo than from inside his physical store that happens to be in Seattle.

And... you're still going to want to ignore distance-based Noise.

No, that makes sense. Cross-continental latency is fairly low even in 2020, and even if I try to thread it through real-world logic you could just as easily say that WiFi is a public utility just light streetlights, etc, and that your device handles all the connection/reconnection on the backend

[penllawen]

Edit: Man, this thread is popular. Missed two posts above that may clarify things.

I happen to know that some of the people likely contributing to the inevitable matrix book have been watching the thread, and are seeing tricky issues that could use some ironing

...I’d be surprised if any of the contents of this thread were new news. These are surely well-worn topics.

[penllawen]

In an attempt to offer some constructive suggestions instead of nit-picks, and in danger of self-promotion to a scandalous degree, I am now going to link to my Shadowrun fan site:

https://paydata.org/setting/matrix_re_fluff/

I’ve been working for a while now on re-writing the Matrix fluff to hew as close as possible to RAW while making as much sense to me as I can manage. I don’t think it’s terrible. I think I have reasonably consistent answers for the most confusing bits. It’s not complete, but most of the bones are there.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

... Cross-continental latency is fairly low even in 2020, and even if I try to thread it through real-world logic you could just as easily say that WiFi is a public utility just light streetlights, etc, and that your device handles all the connection/reconnection on the backend

Except that... it isn't!

The distance between Seattle and, for example, (Neo-)Tokyo is over 7,000 kilometers.  Unless you're flat out ignoring Noise (due to distance) in the case of Hosts, that's well into the 100+ kilometers range and you would suffer -8 dice to hack Grampa Olaf's Liquor Store's host, even if you're inside the building!

[0B]

... Cross-continental latency is fairly low even in 2020, and even if I try to thread it through real-world logic you could just as easily say that WiFi is a public utility just light streetlights, etc, and that your device handles all the connection/reconnection on the backend

Except that... it isn't!

The distance between Seattle and, for example, (Neo-)Tokyo is over 7,000 kilometers.  Unless you're flat out ignoring Noise (due to distance) in the case of Hosts, that's well into the 100+ kilometers range and you would suffer -8 dice to hack Grampa Olaf's Liquor Store's host, even if you're inside the building!

I suppose we could resolve it like this- normal users can connect instantaneously, but hacking in 2080 relies on sensitive covert timing channels.

I understand that resolving this with real-word internet is futile, but it is certainly fun

[Xenon]

Do hosts have a physical location or not?

In this edition it seem as if you have three different types of hosts.

• Virtual matrix hosts (think 'cloud') that does not have a physical location and you always have zero distance to (think SR5 hosts). For inspiration how this could work you can google old 2020 technology such as 'Mesh networking' and 'Distributed computing'
• Physical hosts (think 'on prem') that is perhaps located inside a facility they are protecting. Distance to the facility (or nearest access point) matters
• Offline hosts (think 'air gap') that you need to directly connect to. Distance is always zero once you connect, but you first need to physically travel to it. This is basically the same as a physical host, just that there are no wireless enabled access points to it.

When and where and which you consider being the most common is up to each table.


Personally I will reserve virtual hosts for governments and larger corporations etc. At my table, most hosts that shadowrunners will interact with will be physical hosts (for example residential buildings, factories, local libraries, local police precinct, office buildings, local clubs, local stores etc). I will use offline hosts for paranoid societies, research facilities, hardwired underground military facilities etc.

Of course if you retcon out techno souls, then you must rely on physical network architecture. Routers, switches, cables, and firewalls are all physical.

It seem as if routers and switches and VLANs etc we use today are represented by nestled networks.
Offline networks obvious need to rely on cables, but most other networks will mostly (or even exclusively) use wifi.
Firewalls seem to be represented by the firewall rating of the network.

Note that no matter which type of network we are talking about, once you are inside the network - you are inside.
Type of Host only matters when it comes to how to actually access it (and if you need to consider distance or not).
Once you access it you will use the same matrix actions as you would against any of the other Host 'types'.

So if you want to hack your corner stuffer shack, it's almost guaranteed that its particular host is not running off a server somewhere on its premises...

As I see it;

Even if the physical host is not located inside the facility it is protecting (personally I think it will be most common that it is located on prem, but anyway) a physical host can also have 'access points' at various locations where it make sense from a connectivity point of view (one physical host can probably be used to defend multiple buildings and as long as each building have access points to the network you will be considered to have no distance to the host as long as you are within any of the buildings). If the physical host is located in japan then it will also most likely have a few local access points inside Grampa Olaf's Liquor store (for example I'd imagine that the camera behind the counter, the maglock at the front door, the light switch controlling the lights, the sprinkler system and the two vending machines are probably all acting as local access points for the host they are part of).

"Still ... access points exist, so that people across the globe can log on whever(sic) they want."