I'm assuming so, but it's unclear.
- Can we assume that anthropomorphic drones have the equivalent of cyberlimbs with regular upgrade capacity, or do they have sort of primitive arms?
Aka, can we put upgrades in them.
I would rule No. You would need to get your arms and legs upgraded, although I'm not sure what it should cost because, if you just replaced the arms, they would be the same new price. I'd probably go with just 2500 nuyen per increased Agility. The second question wouldn't really change.
- If I exchange the drones piloting program, does it suddenly make the arms more agile, given that their Agility is based on Pilot?
In case it does, what if I boost the arms agility and then upgrade the Pilot?
I'd go with by Drone, because it's "integrated into the sensors of a vehicle or drone" rather than into the implanted gun. This does mean that you have to get an almighty load of Smartsofts or specialize in a certain drone model.
- Is Smartsoft limited per drone or weapon?
I'm pretty sure that Ares Duelists have a sword mount instead of hands. And the integrated weapon mounts are that blade. If you want them to have guns or hands, you need to remove the integrated mounts.
- Are the weapon mounts of Ares Duelists in Addition to their blades, or are those the blades? Do they have actual hands?
Huh. I'd actually allow a Riot Shield definitely. Now that I think about it, drone armor is more analogous to dermal plating, so I could see an Anthroform droid wearing a Sleeping Tiger suit and getting the armor. But that does not count for the "it bounces off" check, only for the Damage Resistance check.
- Can Drones mount additional Armour like a human can? I assume they aren't allowed to wear actual armour, though I dare ask "Why not?", but what I'm really getting at here is things like Riot shields. For their own good, not others.
Drones are devices, so I'd say yes.
- Can drones use hardware modules from Datatrails (wired in)?
there is this awesome image on the last pages of Rigger 5 showing exactly that.I thought that were just duelists which are stylized to look like samurai?
Huh. I'd actually allow a Riot Shield definitely. Now that I think about it, drone armor is more analogous to dermal plating, so I could see an Anthroform droid wearing a Sleeping Tiger suit and getting the armor. But that does not count for the "it bounces off" check, only for the Damage Resistance check.Oh, right, Drones have "sort of" hardened armour. I forgot about that. That would explain not being able to benefit from armoured clothing, if there is such a rule.
It does not. The only Drone Limbs are standard Drone Limbs. It does weird things with math if not.
- Does the Grade of Cyberlimbs make a difference when attached to a drone? Or is there only the "Attached to a drone" grade for drone limbs?
- Are the weapon mounts of Ares Duelists in Addition to their blades, or are those the blades? Do they have actual hands?
in 4th edition it gunnery was always rolled with agility and reaction was always rolled with pilot regardless if you were jumped in or driving remotely
It matters because when this edition screws things up you go to the previous edition for clarification since they seemed to know what the hell they were doing since they mostly just copy and paste the text from the previous booksin 4th edition it gunnery was always rolled with agility and reaction was always rolled with pilot regardless if you were jumped in or driving remotely
and this matters why?
different edition, different company...
they've already changed multiple things from the way they were done in previous editions.
It matters because when this edition screws things up you go to the previous edition for clarification since they seemed to know what the hell they were doing since they mostly just copy and paste the text from the previous booksin 4th edition it gunnery was always rolled with agility and reaction was always rolled with pilot regardless if you were jumped in or driving remotely
and this matters why?
different edition, different company...
they've already changed multiple things from the way they were done in previous editions.
Generally, falling back to older rules is a fallacy that I've seen my fair share of, including cases where an ambiguously written rule was interpreted like in SR4 even though the only thing clear about it was that it was not like SR4.
First off... the people who believe that a Persona loaded into a device makes it stop being a device, need to go back to high school English class and learn what a Transitional Sentence is. Why in the hell would something as significant as "loading a Persona makes it stop being a device, which means anything that targets a 'device' no longer works" be something that just casually gets mentioned at the end of a fluff paragraph? That's a HUGE thing that people would need to know. HUGE like defining why Hosts exist, and why Technomancers can't use ANY of their Resonance abilities to affect it at all. HUGE like saying that Deckers can not protect their teammates if they attempt to do Decker things, since "only devices can be Masters or Slaves" and if your Deck stops being a device then it can't be Master anymore.Generally, falling back to older rules is a fallacy that I've seen my fair share of, including cases where an ambiguously written rule was interpreted like in SR4 even though the only thing clear about it was that it was not like SR4.
Again that's your opinion based on anecdotal evidence which you are most certainly entitled to, everyone's mileage may vary like as soon as a persona is loaded into a PAN everyone else is kicked out or you can go the SR4A route and everyone isn't kicked out and you can actually play the game instead of rules lawyering every 5 minutes
That's why it takes Master's thesis levels of research and cross referencing to find out how even the simplest of actions are supposed to work.Isn't that a crying shame ?
*polishes the framed Shadowrun Masters diploma on his wall*
I'll frequently go back to previous rule sets to see if they can explain the intent in more detail if in doubt. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, but it also doesn't mean that you should apply something from a previous edition if it directly contradicts something in the new one. Swings and roundabouts and all that; heck, even within the same edition new releases supersede old ones, as with certain Adept powers from Stolen Souls being replaced by the entries in Street Grimoire.
Or just play Shadowrun 4 also so what you are saying is people can log on with their personals on their commlinks and link it to their deckers cyberdecksFirst off... the people who believe that a Persona loaded into a device makes it stop being a device, need to go back to high school English class and learn what a Transitional Sentence is. Why in the hell would something as significant as "loading a Persona makes it stop being a device, which means anything that targets a 'device' no longer works" be something that just casually gets mentioned at the end of a fluff paragraph? That's a HUGE thing that people would need to know. HUGE like defining why Hosts exist, and why Technomancers can't use ANY of their Resonance abilities to affect it at all. HUGE like saying that Deckers can not protect their teammates if they attempt to do Decker things, since "only devices can be Masters or Slaves" and if your Deck stops being a device then it can't be Master anymore.Generally, falling back to older rules is a fallacy that I've seen my fair share of, including cases where an ambiguously written rule was interpreted like in SR4 even though the only thing clear about it was that it was not like SR4.
Again that's your opinion based on anecdotal evidence which you are most certainly entitled to, everyone's mileage may vary like as soon as a persona is loaded into a PAN everyone else is kicked out or you can go the SR4A route and everyone isn't kicked out and you can actually play the game instead of rules lawyering every 5 minutes
Of course, the Writers also need to go back to high school English so they can stop writing such shitty rules that make everyone pull their hair out trying to comprehend.
Secondly... in a game as complex and convoluted as Shadowrun, it's pretty much expected to be a rules lawyer. That's why the Core book is 500 pages. And why there are already more than a dozen supplements out. That's why it takes Master's thesis levels of research and cross referencing to find out how even the simplest of actions are supposed to work.
I'd really like this question answered:
"What rolls are made while using Gunnery jumped into a drone ? Gunnery + Logic ? Or + Agility ?"
I've seen many arguments for both. Was it ever officially answered?
Its linked attribute is Agility, and the Control Device Matrix Action mentions Gunnery + Agility. Why would it be Logic?
Vehicle-mounted weapons are fired using Weapon Skill + Agility [Accuracy] for manual operation, like door guns on mounts, or Gunnery + Logic [Accuracy] for remote operated systems.
in 4th edition it gunnery was always rolled with agility and reaction was always rolled with pilot regardless if you were jumped in or driving remotely
and this matters why?
different edition, different company...
they've already changed multiple things from the way they were done in previous editions.
If they were supposed to be combat monsters their stats would probably reflect as much.There's a difference between being a combat monster and being adequate in combat, though. Much like how shadowrunners are a cut above rent-a-cops and similar security threats, I expect drones used by a shadowrunner rigger to be a cut above the average security drone, be it because of modifications or rigger skills. As it is, drones feel like they have almost no place in combat. The few drones that are somewhat viable for combat are either too slow or cumbersome to bring with you, or to whip out when the drek hits the fan. Even as fire support their usefulness is shaky at best. Honestly, the only kind of combat drones actually feel competent at (no, I don't consider spamming suppressive fire a sign of competence) is sniping. The fact pure sniper archetypes are (in my opinion) a huge character creation trap, and the usefulness of aerial drones gives them a small niche in here. But that's really about it. What originally struck me as cool about (drone) riggers is their ability to serve as a toolbox for your team. Sure,their combat drones shouldn't be able to replace the resident street samurai, but it shouldn't be less of a threat than a fracking ganger with a basebal bat either.
Bottom line is: I'd like to play a drone rigger with combat capability, but as it is, I'm beginning like drone riggers are being shoved to being vehicle-with-a-minor-in-some-drones riggers. Which kind of blows.Steel Lynx + Armor 20 = super solid combat drone. Add gecko-tipped motivators and you can easily take stairs.
Steel Lynx + Armor 20 = super solid combat drone. Add gecko-tipped motivators and you can easily take stairs.True, you can ake it work with some dedication.
At extreme range with a sniper rifle, you don't even need a Bumblebee. Just get a Roto-drone, add a (concealed) weapon mount, and keep it out of range of everything else.
well considering sniper rifle turrets are 16F and large "sport rifle" is 12 F...At extreme range with a sniper rifle, you don't even need a Bumblebee. Just get a Roto-drone, add a (concealed) weapon mount, and keep it out of range of everything else.
True
But are we using the drone mod rules or the vehicle mod rules?
personally I preferred the Bumblebee at extreme range with a sniper rifle... that is until they nerfed the BumblebeeWhere did they nerf it?
Also, I think you guys underestimate the powers of a Noizquito swarm.We have to assume there's a limit to the penalties, however. Noizquitos've been already discussed aplenty and they're so good it's mildly irritating.
Also, I think you guys underestimate the powers of a Noizquito swarm.until the mage lightning balls the entire area where they are or the decker uses fork on the two drones and gets two marks on the RCC by proxy
Let's kick it to see how effective we can build a Noizquito swarm -
Let's assume we're working on a budget, so we can only afford five drones -
10,000 nuyen
For ease, we're going to give them all the same gun - a Nitama Sporter for range. If you want more stopping power, consider a Colt Agent Special instead.
1500 nuyen for guns, 4000 nuyen for mounts.
Let's now do some modding - drop the Sensor rating by 1 for a Mod Point.
Handling up by 1 for 1000: 5000
Speed up by 2 for 2000: 10000
Now, what do we need for autosofts/programs?
Swarm: 600
Targeting: Nitama Sporter 5: 2500
Maneuvering: Noizquito 5: 2500
SmartSoft: 1500
What do we end up with?
A swarm of 5 micro-drones with Speed 5 acting in concert to take down enemies. Let's see what our penalty to hit will be:
-3 for Microdrones
-5 for Speed 5
-10+ for Strobes/Speakers
So we're going to start out with a -18 to hit any particular Noizquito, or -28 if you have the speakers on. After that, they dodge with 10 dice as they'll use the RCC for their Pilot rating.
Okay, but what about shooting? As a swarm, it's going to be 10 + 2 + 4, or 16 dice. Not the best, but not shabby either.
Also, for 6100 nuyen, you can add another Noizquito, which will add a dice to the attack and -2 to -4 for the defense side. Crank this up to the limit (15) and you're spending about 100,000 nuyen for a swarm of strobing, screeching death. They literally cannot take actions (-30 to -60 from the lights/speakers alone) and are going to be facing 10 + 2 + 14 = 26 dice for attack. Add in a Target Device check for kicks and that can easily be 30.
until the mage lightning balls the entire area where they are or the decker uses fork on the two drones and gets two marks on the RCC by proxyThe Mage is facing those ridiculous penalties to cast the Lightning Ball. I doubt he's going to get more than one hit and, as a GM, I would rule that any scatter misses the swarm. Also, the swarm can take the Run For Your Life interrupt action.
We have to assume there's a limit to the penalties, however. Noizquitos've been already discussed aplenty and they're so good it's mildly irritating.My GM is ruling that they max out at -10, which means five Noizquitos is all you need for both penalties or ten for one.
Do all drones actuall need weapons, or is one sufficient if the othes provide swarm bonuses?I would rule that to do anything as a swarm, they all have to be able to take that general kind of action, but the book is unclear.
I'm also pretty sure that in order for the Noizsquitos (or any of your other drones) to do anything, they would be subject to the same penalties. So your 16 dice pool for shooting drops to 11 (assuming that your reduced sensors include flare comp and have the microphones disabled/removed). Or am I missing a rule somewhere that states allies are unaffected?Honestly, it's unclear. I think disabling the mics would cover the sound part easily. For the strobe part, it's only while you're looking in the direction of the drones that you get that penalty. If you turn around or close your eyes, you don't get the penalty. In my mind, your swarm is flying in concert doing basically fly-by bombing run swoops, so they're mostly all parallel - facing in the same direction, forward, where none of them are.
Wakshaani posted a new table with some changes in the Rigger 5 Errata thread that was meant to be in the book, and the Bumblebee was hit especially hard.Wooooooow... I'm really fucking disappointed. No offense, devs. The Bumblebee was one of the drones that really made Rigger characters worth it. I mean, the Rotodrone can't take a few hits, which is quite important for air support. Or am I just being pessimistic here?
You're being pessimistic. You can easily make a Roto-Drone your main air support now.Wakshaani posted a new table with some changes in the Rigger 5 Errata thread that was meant to be in the book, and the Bumblebee was hit especially hard.Wooooooow... I'm really fucking disappointed. No offense, devs. The Bumblebee was one of the drones that really made Rigger characters worth it. I mean, the Rotodrone can't take a few hits, which is quite important for air support. Or am I just being pessimistic here?
True, falar. I was more thinking of drones like the Doberman and Steel Lynx are merely Restricted despite being equipped with Forbidden weapon mounts.That's actually pretty common in all areas of the book. You can buy clothes with Ruthenium Polymer Coating at Chargen, but you can't add RP to something that doesn't have it.
What it shows: The old FB-Bumblebee was around an 8500 nuyen price break. It needed some reduction for balance reasons.Of note, the new Rotodrone is also large. Might make a difference for transportation.
Note that for more money, you can easily crank this bad boy up to around 20 armor, I believe.
Of note, the new Rotodrone is also large. Might make a difference for transportation.Yeah, but honestly, not much of one. It's still the same actual size (IMO), but it was just reclassified to be large.
True, falar. I was more thinking of drones like the Doberman and Steel Lynx are merely Restricted despite being equipped with Forbidden weapon mounts.That's actually pretty common in all areas of the book. You can buy clothes with Ruthenium Polymer Coating at Chargen, but you can't add RP to something that doesn't have it.
Pilot [Human/Ork/Troll]? :D
I don't think biorigging has made it into SR5 yet, but it was a thing in SR4...
The FB-Bumblebee is also illegal as heck.How does this work? armor increase by 3 costs no mod points another armor increase by 3 costs 1 mod point armor increased by 2 costs no mod points? Rotodrones speed is already 4? also a drones attributes can never by higher than twice their starting value rotos armor value is 4? and Increasing an attribute further than 1 requires expenditure of Mod Points equal to the increase minus 1 (5 MP for sensors!)
However, if you want to be legal on your armed roto-drone, here's what I'd go with:
MCT Roto-Drone
- 12 Armor (1 MP)
- Small Weapon Mount with your favorite, legal Machine Pistol/Heavy Pistol (2 MP)
- Mini Weapon Mount with your favorite Taser (1 MP)
- Speed 4R (1 MP)
- Pilot 4
- Sensors 6 (2 MP)
There are many other good configurations here, of course. You can go for double Small Weapon Mounts to have two Machine Pistols, one loaded with Stick-n-Shock and the other loaded with APDS/EX-Explosive rounds. Or you can sacrifice down to one weapon and use a Pop-up mount to be hella inconspicuous.
How does this work? armor increase by 3 costs no mod points another armor increase by 3 costs 1 mod point armor increased by 2 costs no mod points?I was operating under the premise that 3 points of armor = 1 mod point, which is heavily implied, if not stated.
Rotodrones speed is already 4?I was using Wakshaani's errata values instead of the book values. See my earlier post in this thread or his original post in the Rigger 5.0 errata thread.
also a drones attributes can never by higher than twice their starting value rotos armor value is 4?Specific beats general. Armor states that drones can take up to Bodyx3 armor with no encumbrance, but past that, they have encumbrance. To me, this is clearly a more specific rule than the general rule of double.
and Increasing an attribute further than 1 requires expenditure of Mod Points equal to the increase minus 1 (5 MP for sensors!)Your math is incorrect here.
Roto-Drone starts with Sensors 3. Sensors 6 is an increase of 3. Subtract one from the increase for 2 MP.ah so its just the increase not the base cost ya Im gonna need a new rigger book :P
Roto-Drone starts with Sensors 3. Sensors 6 is an increase of 3. Subtract one from the increase for 2 MP.ah so its just the increase not the base cost ya Im gonna need a new rigger book :P
Increasing an attribute further than that requires at least a partial rebuild, and the expenditure of Mod Points equal to the increase minus 1. This means a +2 Speed increase costs 1 Mod point, while +4 Speed would cost 3, and so on.
ok then if I am increasing armor Im just paying for the increase not the total same with realistic features?In MP, yes. In nuyen, you pay for the final. The book is pretty clear on this.
| NAME | HANDL | SPEED | ACCEL | BODY | ARMOR | PILOT | SENS | AVAIL | COST | REF |
| MCT-Nissan Roto-Drone (Large) | 4 | 2R | 1 | 4(4) | 6 | 3 | 3 | 6 | 8,000„ | p. 466, SR5 |
| NAME | HANDL | SPEED | ACCEL | BODY | ARMOR | PILOT | SENS | AVAIL | COST | REF |
| MCT-Nissan Roto-Drone (Large) | 4 | 3R | 2 | 4(3) | 12 | 4 | 3 | 12R | 24,800„ | p. 466, SR5 |
I would go with the following for a less obviously illegal drone (using the drone mod rules). This is the new, unmodified Roto-Drone:
NAME HANDL SPEED ACCEL BODY ARMOR PILOT SENS AVAIL COST REF MCT-Nissan Roto-Drone (Large) 4 2R 1 4(4) 6 3 3 6 8,000„ p. 466, SR5
So we've got 4 mod points to start, and an additional 3 for weapon mods. It's already got decent handling and body, and with a long-range weapon it shouldn't have to evade too many shots or soak too many hits so we'll leave that where it is.
We'll use a free mod point to upgrade speed to 3R for (Speed 3 * Body 4 * 200„) 2,400„ at Avail 6, and do the same for Acceleration 2 for (Acceleration 2 * Body 4 * 200„) 1,600„ at avail 8.
Just to be safe, we'll upgrade Armor from 6 to 12 for 1 MP (6 to 9 for free, 9 to 12 costs 1 MP), for a cost of (AV 12 * Body 4 * 200„) 9,600„ and avail 12R. Since Body 4 * 3 = 12 we're not suffering any reductions in handling or speed.
If the drone will be used by a rigger one might consider sensor upgrades, but as a fire support drone operating autonomously it can do just fine with the accuracy of the weapon, so we'll leave this alone.
We do want a smarter pilot, so we'll get Pilot 4 for 3,200„ at avail 12R.
This gets us the following:
NAME HANDL SPEED ACCEL BODY ARMOR PILOT SENS AVAIL COST REF MCT-Nissan Roto-Drone (Large) 4 3R 2 4(3) 12 4 3 12R 24,800„ p. 466, SR5
This leaves us 6 MPs for weapon mounts, which is enough for a Large (4MP), Pop-Out (1MP) Mount with a second ammunition bin (1MP), for a total of ((4MP * 800„) + (5 MP * 100„) + 50„) 3,750„, and we'll mount one of the Sporting Rifles from Gun Heaven as we can't technically fit a sniper rifle, and we want a range advantage. My choice would be a Springfield M1A for a good combination of power, ammo, and AP, or a Marlin X71 if you want more AP at the cost of less ammunition. Add a smartsoft and a targeting 4 autosoft and you've got a fast and relatively maneuverable drone that can a) provide fire support from up to 500m away and still roll 10 dice on the attack with two take aim actions, b) switch from non-lethal to lethal ammunition on short notice, and c) appear like a legal drone for all intents and purposes without close scrutiny, all for less than 35k (25k if you don't upgrade the AV).
Slaving the drone to an RCC running targeting 6 for another 2 dice, and you could always fit an assault rifle for suppressive fire options instead.
Why not use a blow-away panel? You could then put on a huge weapon mount. Sure it costs 125„ to replace each time you use it, but the extra firepower would probably be worth it, especially if you're going to jump into the drone. 'Course the blow-away panel is more noticeable. Maybe you could use forgery or artisan to improve its concealment.
Raven
Using the optional drone modification rules, weapon mounts intended for drones have different classifications.
Check the drone chapter of rigger 5.
Err your right I was confusing heavy for huge. Too many H's.You could. Reduce body by 1 and you've got the MP you'd need. Sniper Rifles are significantly more expensive, though, which means that if the drone does get wrecked you're now looking at a bigger loss. I like affordable yet useful, so the sporting rifles work well enough for me.
But still, why can't you put a huge in this bad boy and get your sniper...(I'm not well versed on the mod rules yet.... Still reading and playing)
so wait whats the cost of a weapon mount not blown away or popped up I dont seem to recall a price listing for that, I thought the cost was for the panel that hides the mount with respect to the blow away mountUnder the optional drone mod rules a weapon mount costs (Mod Points) x 800„. The blow away panel costs (Mod Points) x 25„ and doesn't use a mod point, as well as 125„ to replace the panel once used. The pop-out/under mount costs (Mod Points) x 100„ and 1 mod point, and is reusable.
Enhancing a drones Pilot program takes more than just loading a new program: select chips on the hardware set are replaced and upgraded, new communication channels are installed to enhance information gathering, and control systems are upgraded to provide improved sensitivity and additional maneuvering options.
So drones can only run pilot/2 autosofts at once.Most drones (other than intentionally dumb ones) can run three autosofts with appropriate upgrades (Pilot 5).
That effectively limits almost all drones to one or two autosofts.
So drones can only run pilot/2 autosofts at once.Most drones (other than intentionally dumb ones) can run three autosofts with appropriate upgrades (Pilot 5).
That effectively limits almost all drones to one or two autosofts.
I don't find this a problem for Riggers. The point is that drones, when not supported by an RCC, aren't as boss. I think that's a perfectly good design decision.
What I don't think is a great design decision are the following:
- You can't run enough autosofts on an RCC to handle multiple drone models well at the same time. It just doesn't work.
- Multiple different drones/vehicles are kind of the concept of a rigger
I think an RCC should have something like:
- 2x Device Rating slots for Model specific Autosofts
- Device Rating slots for non-Specific Autosofts (Electronic Warfare, First Aid)
- Noise Rating Reduction + Bonus Slots = Device Rating
I also think autosoft ratings shouldn't be bound by the RCC's Device Rating.
We are restricting Swarm to same drones, same weapons systems.You can actually install grenade launchers on them.
(so you cant have a bunch of cheapass fly-spys boost your damage output drone to crazy levels)
Unless I'm missing a reference somewhere, you can mount (Body / 3, round down) weapon slots. Which means you need at least Body 3 to mount anything. Fly Spies only have Body 1.We are restricting Swarm to same drones, same weapons systems.You can actually install grenade launchers on them.
(so you cant have a bunch of cheapass fly-spys boost your damage output drone to crazy levels)
Unless I'm missing a reference somewhere, you can mount (Body / 3, round down) weapon slots. Which means you need at least Body 3 to mount anything. Fly Spies only have Body 1.We are restricting Swarm to same drones, same weapons systems.You can actually install grenade launchers on them.
(so you cant have a bunch of cheapass fly-spys boost your damage output drone to crazy levels)
You can actually install grenade launchers on [fly-spys].Has someone clarified "single-shot grenade" to be something other than a single-shot grenade?
Do drones have to do a Control Vehicle test every combat turn to prevent crashing?No, because they are drones and thus count as metahuman for the purposes of tactical combat. Chase combat is a different story, however.
Thx. I was confused because drones movement seems to be a little different than the one of metahumans. Moving with high speed inside a building seemed to be much more difficult than a chase situation to me.Do drones have to do a Control Vehicle test every combat turn to prevent crashing?No, because they are drones and thus count as metahuman for the purposes of tactical combat. Chase combat is a different story, however.
So drones can only run pilot/2 autosofts at once.
That effectively limits almost all drones to one or two autosofts.
The first one is absolutely intended. A Pilot serves as a cap on Autosofts equal to its rating. (Note that, along with this, you can run a number of autosofts equal to your Pilot, rather than Pilot /2 as before. This should help mitigate the pain.)
Holy crap. That's a huge buff. That means that a drone can actually stand alone REALLY well now.Quote from: /u/WakshaaniThe first one is absolutely intended. A Pilot serves as a cap on Autosofts equal to its rating. (Note that, along with this, you can run a number of autosofts equal to your Pilot, rather than Pilot /2 as before. This should help mitigate the pain.)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/40q7dn/rigger_5_pg127_massive_stealth_nerf/cyxycjp
I don't think it's spelled out in the book, though.
It's nice that these critical pieces of information are posted on random threads on the internet instead of being included in the rulebooks that govern how the game is played.
It's nice that these critical pieces of information are posted on random threads on the internet instead of being included in the rulebooks that govern how the game is played.
This way I get to spend countless hours trying to figure out what the rules are and how to play the game instead of, you know, playing it.
I mean I really prefer to spend my time this way, it's far more fun.
Catalyst totally has their act together and they have no editing problem, no line management problem and everything is just fine.
Nothing to see here move along.
Yeah, I don't like that either. Especially as we don't know if it will ever be included in any official document.I have noticed more and more, they just stopped printing official errata as a separate PDF. Now you just have to hope your Google Fu is strong enough to dig the answer out of a 100 page thread.
Shhh, there is no problem here.
Stop criticizing them.
Catalyst is trying really hard and it's not their fault they cannot get it right.
It's just "because" and something you will have to live with.
That's Sarcasm, a dark form of humor highlighting a truth (the truth being that Catalyst seems incapable of producing any kind of quality product regarding rules for their game. They can author great fiction but that's not what makes an RPG, that's what makes a great book).There's a point at which all of your posts are so annoying that it's not worth reading for your good points because it's surrounded in so much anti-Catalyst drivel.
And five, yes, but it's noted in SR5. Indeed, in SR5 core, an autosoft is limited to exactly one drone, ever. (Bob the Flyspy gets this program. You then have to buy a new program for any other drone, even an identical flyspy. No, you cannot salvage it from Bob's remains, nor can you break the copy protection and make more. Every single time, you have to buy a new program.... All of these changes are absolutely as intended. The only issue is that I chose a bad example (I should have used Maneuver) ...)How do you explain INGAME that you can't copy or Salvage a Program and insert it in the same /identical Drone.
Woah, that's HUGE! A Pilot 6 is suddenly very, very useful, but very very expensive.So drones can only run pilot/2 autosofts at once.
That effectively limits almost all drones to one or two autosofts.
Wak had something to say about that on Reddit:QuoteThe first one is absolutely intended. A Pilot serves as a cap on Autosofts equal to its rating. (Note that, along with this, you can run a number of autosofts equal to your Pilot, rather than Pilot /2 as before. This should help mitigate the pain.)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/40q7dn/rigger_5_pg127_massive_stealth_nerf/cyxycjp
I don't think it's spelled out in the book, though.
A Question to WaakshaaniAaaaand there we go. That is, for lack of a better term, absolutely bat-shit crazy.
SInceYou wrote this this in Reddit:QuoteAnd five, yes, but it's noted in SR5. Indeed, in SR5 core, an autosoft is limited to exactly one drone, ever. (Bob the Flyspy gets this program. You then have to buy a new program for any other drone, even an identical flyspy. No, you cannot salvage it from Bob's remains, nor can you break the copy protection and make more. Every single time, you have to buy a new program.... All of these changes are absolutely as intended. The only issue is that I chose a bad example (I should have used Maneuver) ...)How do you explain INGAME that you can't copy or Salvage a Program and insert it in the same /identical Drone.
If you have a Maneuever Autosoft for FlySpy Alpha, Why won't it work for Flyspy Beta ?
INGAME Explanation please
Because I suspect there is only the Outgame Explanation of making it worse/harder/more Expensive for Rigger players and if thats true i'm kinda ...furious/angry /mad
especially if there is NO ingame explanation
with a tiny angry Dance
Medicineman
Wakshaani, why do you hate riggers so much? I mean, not only did you increase repair costs to 5% per box of damage, but you also now made it impossible to recover software from a broken drone, a broken drone is worth exactly 0„, AND we can't copy a program even though Data Trails doesn't even have any rules on copy protection? Seriously?Dude. Wakshaani is the freelancer who's trying to make riggers better the most. He may have made some mistakes - but his heart's in the right place. Chill out.
Aaaaand there we go. That is, for lack of a better term, absolutely bat-shit crazy.
Wakshaani, why do you hate riggers so much? I mean, not only did you increase repair costs to 5% per box of damage, but you also now made it impossible to recover software from a broken drone, a broken drone is worth exactly 0„, AND we can't copy a program even though Data Trails doesn't even have any rules on copy protection? Seriously?
That's it, I'm house ruling this whole book... I can't agree with any of the directions drones and riggers are being taken in, so I'm just going to make up my own rules at this point.
To quote my parents: "I'm not mad, just disappointed." *shakes head*
It's nice that these critical pieces of information are posted on random threads on the internet instead of being included in the rulebooks that govern how the game is played.Quoted for making sense, i have enough trouble as is devoting what little gaming time i still have trying to master the byzantine SR5 rules.
This way I get to spend countless hours trying to figure out what the rules are and how to play the game instead of, you know, playing it.
I mean I really prefer to spend my time this way, it's far more fun.
I apologize unreservedly. I certainly didn't mean to attack anyone.Aaaaand there we go. That is, for lack of a better term, absolutely bat-shit crazy.
Wakshaani, why do you hate riggers so much? I mean, not only did you increase repair costs to 5% per box of damage, but you also now made it impossible to recover software from a broken drone, a broken drone is worth exactly 0„, AND we can't copy a program even though Data Trails doesn't even have any rules on copy protection? Seriously?
That's it, I'm house ruling this whole book... I can't agree with any of the directions drones and riggers are being taken in, so I'm just going to make up my own rules at this point.
To quote my parents: "I'm not mad, just disappointed." *shakes head*
Completely out of line. No issue with disagreement and criticism...personal attacks simply have no place here.
Herr Brackhaus...please excuse yourself from this thread.
Shadowrun Mod
Funny thing Herr B, I agree with you completely.I apologize unreservedly. I certainly didn't mean to attack anyone.Aaaaand there we go. That is, for lack of a better term, absolutely bat-shit crazy.
Wakshaani, why do you hate riggers so much? I mean, not only did you increase repair costs to 5% per box of damage, but you also now made it impossible to recover software from a broken drone, a broken drone is worth exactly 0„, AND we can't copy a program even though Data Trails doesn't even have any rules on copy protection? Seriously?
That's it, I'm house ruling this whole book... I can't agree with any of the directions drones and riggers are being taken in, so I'm just going to make up my own rules at this point.
To quote my parents: "I'm not mad, just disappointed." *shakes head*
Completely out of line. No issue with disagreement and criticism...personal attacks simply have no place here.
Herr Brackhaus...please excuse yourself from this thread.
Shadowrun Mod
(like You can attack only once per IP even if you can Shoot twice so you can attack only once,but the second shot MUST be into empty Air )
Characters sometimes want to really put on the hurting in a single Action Phase and can choose to attack more than once in a single Action Phase by using the Mul- tiple Attacks Free Action. This action represents both attacking multiple times from a single melee weapon and attacking with two different weapons ( rearms or melee).
Yes true(like You can attack only once per IP even if you can Shoot twice so you can attack only once,but the second shot MUST be into empty Air )
Not true.Quote from: SR5, p. 196Characters sometimes want to really put on the hurting in a single Action Phase and can choose to attack more than once in a single Action Phase by using the Mul- tiple Attacks Free Action. This action represents both attacking multiple times from a single melee weapon and attacking with two different weapons ( rearms or melee).
wyou can attack only once,but the second shot MUST be into empty AirYou're splitting an unsplittable hair there, M.
[...]
unless you use the Rules from [Run & Gun]
is that a -6 Modifier ?Quotewyou can attack only once,but the second shot MUST be into empty AirYou're splitting an unsplittable hair there, M.
[...]
unless you use the Rules from [Run & Gun]
I don't believe the bit about autosofts being so specific that they can be installed only on one drone at all - otherwise sharing over an RCC would be impossible.
Should this clarification find its way into an official Errata, I suspect getting a crappy RCC with Virtual Machine will be the way to go to avoid this restriction.
is that a -6 Modifier ?It's a "CRB says no" modifier. You're creating a division between attack actions and fire weapon actions, when there is no such thing.
???is that a -6 Modifier ?It's a "CRB says no" modifier. You're creating a division between attack actions and fire weapon actions, when there is no such thing.
What Jack is referring to is that autosofts have an utterly unbreakable copy protection is 5E such that if you buy an autosoft for your Flyspy, you can't pull it out and put it in a second Flyspy that you "acquire", even though they are the exact same model drone. That copy of the autosoft is "registered" to the drone it was originally installed on. This is intended, per Wakshaani. If you lose the drone to a hail of bullets, the autosoft is gone. You have to re-purchase it when you get a new Flyspy.I don't believe the bit about autosofts being so specific that they can be installed only on one drone at all - otherwise sharing over an RCC would be impossible.
Should this clarification find its way into an official Errata, I suspect getting a crappy RCC with Virtual Machine will be the way to go to avoid this restriction.
Ok, I'm confused here; the RCC is supposed to be able to share autosofts (such as Clearsight or Electronic Warfare) that isn't specified as being [Model] (Evasion, Maneuvering, or Stealth) or [Weapon] Targeting. Is the rule now that even Clearsight and Electronic Warfare have to be installed per drone? ??? If so, that means I'm going to need to go back and rebuild my rigger to account for that.
What Jack is referring to is that autosofts have an utterly unbreakable copy protection is 5E such that if you buy an autosoft for your Flyspy, you can't pull it out and put it in a second Flyspy that you "acquire", even though they are the exact same model drone. That copy of the autosoft is "registered" to the drone it was originally installed on. This is intended, per Wakshaani. If you lose the drone to a hail of bullets, the autosoft is gone. You have to re-purchase it when you get a new Flyspy.
...
Your question is in regards to the example of Clearsoft gaining a [Model] designation in the example given on page 127 of Rigger 5.0. Wakshaani has mentioned that the example was in error and was meant to use Maneuvering [Model]. Clearsight and EWar remain Model agnostic per Core.
So I suppose you should run as many programs as possible on the RCC, with maybe 1 on your highest pilot drone in any given swarm, and install antennas on drones as that's cheaper than noise reduction plus drone softs?
Did Rigger 5.0 add antennas for drones? Cus otherwise that's Headware and I don't think you can give implants to drones.
The trick to Autosofts is to either buy a few mixed drones and load them each with their own programs based solely on what you want them to do. Such as a Fly Spy with Clearsight so it can buzz around spying on people for you. Or a Roto-drone with a heavy weapon mounted, and a Targeting Autosoft so it can spray ammo downrange at a moment's notice.
Or... you get a bunch of the same drone, and share out a single copy of the Autosofts to the entire group. This saves you money in purchasing programs, but it limits your selection in drones. Instead of having 1 of each in the back of your truck, you just end up with a dozen of the same thing.
Right now I think I need to sit down and reread both the core rulebook rigger rules, as well as Rigger 5. :-\This is the problem with SR5 in particular, although there was a library of source materials for all the older editions as well.
Well, we don't know what is actually RAI here, but I was interpreting the swarm autosoft that way (uses the highest of).So I suppose you should run as many programs as possible on the RCC, with maybe 1 on your highest pilot drone in any given swarm, and install antennas on drones as that's cheaper than noise reduction plus drone softs?
If I understand the first part of your question correctly, you were talking about running programs on you RCC for all your drones, while also running an autosoft on your highest rated drone while it recieves programs from the RCC, correct? If so, it is my understanding that your highest rated drone cannot run its own autosofts while at the same time running autosofts shared from the RCC; you have to stick with autosofts from one source or the other. :-\
At this point, they should do one of two things:
1. Hire someone (or multiple someones) with the ability to write clear, unambiguous rules using consistent verbiage a la Pathfinder or D&D, give them unfettered access to the powers that decide such things, and have them write a series of rules summaries (The Core Cheat Sheet with general combat and skill use, as well as char gen perhaps; the Rigger Cheat Sheet with all the Vehicle, drone, and rigger rules in one place; the Matrix Cheat Sheet with all Matrix and Technomancer rules in one place; and the Magic Cheat Sheet with Astral Combat, summoning, spellcasting, initiating, etc all in one place) that includes all errata, clarifications, changes, and so forth and sell them for like $5 a pop. They would be fluff free and include coherent and useful examples. They would not include gear, spells, programs, and so forth so that they could not be used as a replacement for actually owning the core books. This sucks, but it provides a profit motive for Catalyst to fix the product. Since gear and spells, etc are not in these, there would also need to be an update to errata or something that provides clear information on all of the more vague of these (like PI-Tacs, Turn to Goo, and so on). Each of these books would likely need to be 20-50 pages
2. Put the rules (not the fluff and art) under an SRM style license so that someone (or multiple someones) can create a wiki that contains a single, well organized source with all rules, clarified and including every official comment, change, clarification, and errata from the forums, supplements, and official errata (again, like the d20pfsrd.com site). This is a big risk for them as it allows people to effectively play the system without investing in the books (and thus not paying Catalyst), but again, perhaps gear and spells, etc, themselves could be excluded so that it would only be a rules compendium. Though at least some items form each category (software, spells, gear, and so on) should be included so that they can be used in examples. This might serve to increase the audience for Shadowrun, bring many of the players that abandoned the system in frustration back into the fold, and ultimately contribute to sales of additional merchandise such as the fiction and table top game.