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Player Incentive/Development (GM perspective)

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Crash_00

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« Reply #60 on: <11-15-11/0220:06> »
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Why not? That might be the lifestyle that makes sense for the character. Just like a D&D mage living in a not-so-extravagant place because they focused everything on their magic. Same principle there.

Because people have goals to better their lives. Sometimes that goal will be to move into a better place, sometimes it will be to raise enough money to do X (pay off the mob, get son a new heart, etc.). The character should have a goal other than raise magic abilities. If the character is giving money to an orphanage and helping out, they'll be getting a reward already (contacts, loyalty, probably karma that I toss in and new plotlines). Then again, I'm more of a roleplay your character and you'll be rewarded type of GM.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #61 on: <11-16-11/0200:06> »
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Why not? That might be the lifestyle that makes sense for the character. Just like a D&D mage living in a not-so-extravagant place because they focused everything on their magic. Same principle there.
Because people have goals to better their lives. Sometimes that goal will be to move into a better place, sometimes it will be to raise enough money to do X (pay off the mob, get son a new heart, etc.). The character should have a goal other than raise magic abilities. If the character is giving money to an orphanage and helping out, they'll be getting a reward already (contacts, loyalty, probably karma that I toss in and new plotlines). Then again, I'm more of a roleplay your character and you'll be rewarded type of GM.

I'm sorry, but am I the only one who sees the double standard here?  Crash, stop and think about what 'Raise magic abilities' (a game system concept) can mean in game.  The guy (or girl) could be tossing everything they have at gaining knowledge.  Who cares that there are devil rats gnawing on the edges of the pizza boxes and that the thing they left in their fridge last year has just sued for rights under the MetaSentient Act of 2072?  Who cares that the only reason they pay power is to run their memory farm that stores Every Last Megapulse of every single mage-centric board in their language?  What drives the character is an unrelenting desire, nay, an obsession, with finding out what's new in magic, what could be, what theories are there -- and then trying them out themselves.  'Congrats, you just got a million nuyen, what're you going to do with it?'  "Buy out the guy in the slum apartment next door so I can knock down the wall and expand my magic circle; there's a new theory in MetaPlanar News that suggests that binding is easier if you nest your circles..."

How is this not roleplaying?  It may be that the player says 'all my ¥¥¥ and Karma is going to improve my magic abilities', but how that happens sure as hell can be roleplaying.  'Better my life' means something completely different from person to person.  Saying that 'people have goals to better their lives' and then denying that obsessively improving one part of their life is a valid goal is denying that individual the right to RP their character the way they want.
Pananagutan & End/Line

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Zilfer

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« Reply #62 on: <11-16-11/1253:30> »
Very nice description, almost makes me think you've played a character like that.... o.O'
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #63 on: <11-16-11/2223:00> »
I write; I role-play, which is for the purposes of this discussion more to the point.  If the player wants to do something crazy with their off-time, or throw all their time and money (Karma and Cash) at one thing, it's the GM's role in the game to work with them to figure out how that's done and how it's RPed.  Doesn't matter if it's the hermetic learning magic skills or the ork street sam obsessing over 'My Little Brony'; This Is What The Player Wants For The Character, so it's up to the GM to either a) give him what he wants, b) make him work for what he wants, or c) make him rue the day he wanted it; in all three cases, though, he should d) make getting it interesting and enjoyable, even if that's a rueful kind of enjoyment.*

And yes, I did.  The Wyrm was very much in this vein for the first several years of his RP existence; he didn't much care for living conditions, all his cash went to improving his gear -- usually his 'deck.  Later, refining his 'ware, or reverse-engineering 'ware in order to put it into his deck so that he'd get the advantages while hacking.


* -- Of the 'yeah, an ork street sam surrounded by all of the pissed-off Red Hot Nukes -- and that's when things got bad...' variety.  Stories of how bad it got can be as fun as stories of kicking so much ass you need to just take down initials, 'cause it'd take too long to take names.
Pananagutan & End/Line

Old As McBean, Twice As Mean
"Oh, gee - it's Go-Frag-Yourself-O'Clock."
New Wyrm!! Now with Twice the Bastard!!

Laés is ... I forget. -PiXeL01
Play the game. Don't try to win it.

Crash_00

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« Reply #64 on: <11-16-11/2318:38> »
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Saying that 'people have goals to better their lives' and then denying that obsessively improving one part of their life is a valid goal is denying that individual the right to RP their character the way they want.
In that example, your character had a goal that wasn't just "raise magical ability", he wanted find the answer. He wanted to expand his living area to fit more things in.

I think the conflicting point here is that I don't think its a GM's job to come up with how a character does improving in these situations. I think its the players job and the GM's job to referee what does and doesn't work in their game.

If a player says, I want to convert my nuyen to Karma (or Karma to nuyen) my first question is what are you doing to get it done?
I don't think there need to be hard and fast conversion rules. If a player tells me he's donating to charity, I'm going to give him a poor conversion rate because the character is literally just clicking a few AROs in VR and feels a bit better about themselves. If a player tells me I'm going to go down and work at the shelter, help teach the orphans and work on fixing the place up, he'll get a good conversion rate (but he'll be spending his down time doing this leaving him unavailable for other things). If a player just says I don't know, I just want to raise my magic abilities more, I'm going to tell him to think about it some more and get back with me.

90% of the time I see someone focus on just one thing in lieu of everything else, there is not roleplaying behind it. Usually its just metagaming in my experience, so I may be a little burnt toward it. People live, people splurge, people need attention. Those that don't are generally more than a bit crazy, but hey they have flaws for that.

FastJack

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« Reply #65 on: <11-17-11/0814:53> »
Crash, you're putting all the work on the players and making it seem more like a punishment for their choices unless they come up with really great reasons. I'm all for pushing the players to think 'in-character' for this stuff, but a lot of the spending Karma and stuff takes place in the down-time between runs. It's the bookkeeping part of the game and I'm okay with them just saying that they are going to exchange nuyen for Karma and move on to get to the actual story part of the game. Now, a lot of games have great RP sessions set up on what goes on between adventures, and a lot of groups love that stuff for the immersion factor. I prefer to immerse the characters in the story of the runs, with bits creeping in about their down-time lives, instead of focusing on that down-time.

Zilfer

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« Reply #66 on: <11-17-11/1315:16> »
While metagaming can be a problem, for example I'm planning on making my mage more and more powerful. I constantly overcast and push my mage to the limits of his casting ability.

There's not a session I haven't played my character Scythe without casting a F12 something. xD (lightning ball!!! :D)

Guess my point is regardless whether it's just because I want to be able to throw the most powerful spell anyone at our table will ever see (and quite possibly blow myself up in the process) I'm sure my DM and/or when I DM woud let that conversion happen. I don't see it as game breaking. Maybe I will when I introduce it. *shrugs*

Can't wait to cast that F20 Stun Ball/Lightning Ball/Lightning Bolt/Orgy xD
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man

tzizimine

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« Reply #67 on: <11-17-11/1319:32> »
Can't wait to cast that F20 Stun Ball/Lightning Ball/Lightning Bolt/Orgy xD


All at once?!?... ouch...
"When in doubt, cause trouble. When in trouble, cause doubt."

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Zilfer

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« Reply #68 on: <11-17-11/1320:54> »
Can't wait to cast that F20 Stun Ball/Lightning Ball/Lightning Bolt/Orgy xD


All at once?!?... ouch...

No but that would be epic. I'd have to save my 6 edge for that occasion. :D
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man

Crash_00

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« Reply #69 on: <11-17-11/1330:59> »
I guess I usually run with a weird bunch. The only game I've ever run that didn't focus equally on run time and down time is Missions. Most of my SR experience was 3rd ed, but usually we had enough enemies and personal backgrounds stacked up that going out of town for a run was like a vacation. We also Blue Booked a lot of the behind the scenes including gear purchases and training.