[Volomon]

What the heck is the effect of these various things such as notoriety, street cred, public awareness?  How do you apply it in your sessions?

[trunglefever]

Social modifiers are definitely the easiest/most common way to implement these things. Notoriety and Public Awareness might take away from their ability to negotiate with a Johnson because he knows the runners have a reputation for being overt in their action. One of my players took Bad Rep at character creation and so far he has been taking -3 dice pool to any social tests he's been making or wants to be a part of. I was trying to find a means to also have him less availability with his talismonger (who views the player as bad heat for mages).

[Palladion]

All of them fall under Reputation (SR5 372), how well is a character known, and whether he or she is known for good, bad, or loud. Street Cred adds to Social Test Limits, Notoriety is the "evil" meter, and Public Awareness is just how well known the runner is.  It is the closest thing to "alignment" there is.

[Volomon]

All of them fall under Reputation (SR5 372), how well is a character known, and whether he or she is known for good, bad, or loud. Street Cred adds to Social Test Limits, Notoriety is the "evil" meter, and Public Awareness is just how well known the runner is.  It is the closest thing to "alignment" there is.

Ya alignment is one thing but the book says you can spend points to get rid of these things 2 Street Cred for on Notoriety, so this must have some major impact.  Social minuses don't seem like enough to me and the book is practically undefined about this aspect.  Otherwise it's a rule that just for fluff.

[Silence]

Good Street Cred and low Notoriety also means people may be less willing to accept contracts on you.

[Volomon]

Good Street Cred and low Notoriety also means people may be less willing to accept contracts on you.

Ya but it's undefined at what point is the character considered unrunnable again.  How much Notoriety do you need before contacts stop answering the phone.  Seems like we've been given leeway with this but I wish it was at least defined.  Does one point of Notoriety mean loyalty one contacts stop picking up the phone?  How about two?

[Silence]

Oh, contacts will answer the phone.  But they might not have any info, because they are known to hang with the High-Notoriety types.  Or they may end up being taken out to send a message.

[Michael Chandra]

The GM decides. If they decide Notoriety means too-low-Loyalty Contacts are unwilling to get you info and are only willing to sell stuff to/for you, that's how it works. If they decide the Notoriety is a penalty on every interaction with the Contact and the excess above Loyalty is a dice penalty on swag tests, because they're less willing to do their best for you, that's how it works. If they instead decide Notoriety simply applies as penalty to trust social tests and as bonus to intimidation, that's how it works.

[Volomon]

Still seems kind of lazy.  Thats like taking Marks and if they were undefined we would have to make up what would happen, ect,. ect,. you could apply it to every aspect of the game.  It's one thing to have an open ended nice resolution that the GM makes up for a story.  However these are suppose to be the rules.  It even defines some of it, trading Cred for Notoriety.  You couldn't remotely find another "major" game that just up and open ends a component of the game otherwise these are nothing more than suggestions, and should be left out of the game, and off the sheet as optional.

It's basically like hey new player we didn't define this part of the game so you could help us finish it.

Oh thank you?  No.

[Michael Chandra]

Honestly, I think this is better than stating strict rules, like SR4 did. Now a GM has more freedom on how to apply them. They can take it easy, or make it severe, both of which without a player crying foul game. As long as the GM is fair and makes sure the players realize why they're having a hard time, it's not that bad. If on the other hand a GM bombshells you with a contract on your head without the player ever being notified he was getting more pissed looks, that's a bad GM. Meanwhile, there's a clear way to get rid of Notoriety so the GM can't go "no, you're not getting rid of it now".

They give enough hints on how Notoriety can restrain you, while giving the GM a lot of freedom on how to do it. This means a player won't go "hey, he has 5 Notoriety, why do his contacts still talk with him, eh?", nor will they go "nono, just because we have 5 Notoriety doesn't mean you can restrict the jobs we get to more brutal ones". This is not something where the player can go "wait a sec, the rules are different here!", the GM has freedom. That's not lazy, that's protecting the GM from rulelawyers.

[GiraffeShaman]

Some options would have been nice though. Especially for new GMs and ones  who have never seen a 4th edition rulebook. Just a quick list with various options how to apply it, and firmly stated that these are GM options, not strict rules.

[TX_DM]

I'll tell you what I do, I look around me to figure this one out.

If you get known for shooting the people who you are supposed to be doing jobs FOR, and tons of collateral damage and acting like a psychopath, then nobody wants anything to do with you. You keep tripping on people, showing up in bars, acting the tough-guy and the like, and eventually you'll find a very, very high grade tranquilizer in the beer you just ordered and end up an organ donor. End of Story.

If you get known for being a 'Stand Up Guy' doing the job with honor, integrity and most importantly, protecting the profit margins of your employer, you get loyalty from those employers back. Sometimes that doesn't protect you from a stray bullet, but it means the difference between tapping a Fixer for a favor to pay your hospital bill and ending up as spare parts in a vat.

[Volomon]

I'll tell you what I do, I look around me to figure this one out.

If you get known for shooting the people who you are supposed to be doing jobs FOR, and tons of collateral damage and acting like a psychopath, then nobody wants anything to do with you. You keep tripping on people, showing up in bars, acting the tough-guy and the like, and eventually you'll find a very, very high grade tranquilizer in the beer you just ordered and end up an organ donor. End of Story.

If you get known for being a 'Stand Up Guy' doing the job with honor, integrity and most importantly, protecting the profit margins of your employer, you get loyalty from those employers back. Sometimes that doesn't protect you from a stray bullet, but it means the difference between tapping a Fixer for a favor to pay your hospital bill and ending up as spare parts in a vat.

Ya see this is a given do we all really need rules for us to use this common sense?   Not really and as far as GM's coming up with something or being "forced" to use some rules that are written.  I can tell you from being a long time GM/DM is that rules are nothing but tools to begin with to be discarded at whim when those rules prohibit a potentially more "fun" possibility or a more eventful time or inhibit the story.  So there's no such thing as a rule forcing you to do anything.  In fact thats why there are house rules. 

My point is why bother with any of the categories.  Why not just say hey keep track of how well your players do and reward or hurt them based on these facts?  They're really just general guide lines and without a real definition for new players shouldn't be in the book.  It appears that it should be linked to loyalty ect,. looks like there could be some potential there but ultimately it's down to each individual person to come up with it.

[Elektrycerze3]

Why not just say hey keep track of how well your players do and reward or hurt them based on these facts?

A lot of systems I've seen give general guidelines like you say and let the GM use common sense. Vampire the Requiem does this with neo-feudal system, for example.

Many people, including myself, simply forget about the implication of "common sense systems" if there are no reference points on a character sheet. But when you have something like Notoriety or Public Awareness written down, you are constantly reminded of their existense. Moreover you have numbers to compare things, like "Notoriety 6 is more than Notoriety 4, so this guy's reputation is a tad worse".

Of course one can eyeball such things and use common sense. But it's way easier to refer to some numbers, if only to remember better.

[Michael Chandra]

My point is why bother with any of the categories.  Why not just say hey keep track of how well your players do and reward or hurt them based on these facts?  They're really just general guide lines and without a real definition for new players shouldn't be in the book.  It appears that it should be linked to loyalty ect,. looks like there could be some potential there but ultimately it's down to each individual person to come up with it.

"Why are you giving me a hard time compared to the rest?" "Because your character goes out of line more often." That's bullcrap!"

Without Notoriety: "Remember X, and Y, and Z?" "And they did things as well, and you're simply targetting me unfairly, and you're an asshole, and and and!"
With Notoriety: "Tell that to your Notoriety score."