Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: The Bald Man on <09-05-14/2104:22>
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RCC & Cyberdeck are both wireless enabled. Can I go to the meet, leave my deck in the van, and still hack/Jump-in if I need to? Can I leave it in my apartment?
I understand that it isn't a great idea to leave your expensive electronics unattended. Noise between owner and deck/RCC would add to Noise between deck/RCC and device.
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Short answer: no. Long answer: you need to establish DNI with your deck or RCC in order to utilize its functions. DNI cannot be established wirelessly.
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Hack yes. Jump in No. As Namikaze pointed out you need DNI for Jumping in. But DNI is trap imo! I have long considered just hacking everything in just AR mod. The concept to do it gonna be a little weird but it can work. If you can raise your meat world init, you can totally just hack from AR, and under those circumstances it might be possible to do this. You would be subject to EW issues, but price of doing business i expect.
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I've been under the impression that datajacks of 2075 are able to be used wirelessly.
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DNI cannot be established wirelessly.
really?!
I've been thinking of it wrong all this time?
you mean ive gotta have a wire from my head to the rcc if i wanna jump in?
CRAZY!
Why have i been thinking of this wrong for SO LONG?
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DNI cannot be established wirelessly.
Do you have a reference for this?
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DNI cannot be established wirelessly.
Do you have a reference for this?
How do you sign up? You get DNI by wearing trodes, or having an implanted datajack, commlink, or cyberdeck
All of these methods involve physical connection between yourself and the device.
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All of these methods involve physical connection between yourself and the device.
Ahh... OK, now i see what you mean. Sort of.
You need a physical connection between yourself and the device that provide you with a direct neural interface.
...but once you have DNI you can use that as a bridge to link your brain with other devices (such as an external cyberdeck, commlink or RCC) by either connecting a wire... or by wireless.
Still unclear if we can leave the external cyberdeck, commlink or RCC in the van and still use it to hack a device or remote control a drone we own.... I always assumed you had to bring it with you, but in a world where everything else is wireless...... Theoretically you should be able to use your DNI to wireless link to your external external cyberdeck, commlink or RCC to form your persona and then go from there.
If this is possible then you would have to be mindful of local noise at your body (where your direct neural interface is located), at the van or your apartment (where your external cyberdeck, commlink or RCC is located) and at the physical device you are trying to hack or remote control (where the physical maglock or one of your drones are located) and that you have to count noise due to distance between all three points.
Does a wireless DNI link even have a max range in SR5...??
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Does a wireless DNI link even have a max range in SR5...??
Wouldn't a wireless DNI have to exist before it can have a max range? If you leave the deck in the van, you can't use it to hack. Period. You have to have your DNI to the deck in order to use it.
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Trodes became an alternative to Data jacks back in 4th. They aren't really wireless. They just don't need a hole in your head to work.
I'll go dig and see if you can DNI wirelessly somehow. But I don't think so.
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I assumed this had been put to rest about the time you could have DNI to your gun without running a cable between your datajack and the firearm in question. How long has it been since the cable became something backwards, or at best 'old school'?
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It all comes down to hacking in 5th. Lets be honest 4th essentially did away with Deckers. Super Cellphones replaced computers, and all the functions we needed deckers for could be taken care of by a sufficiently advanced software package toted around on your super cell phone. But 5th has pushed deckers with a vengeance, wireless active bonus. All the good tech gear gets solid return from Wireless active bonus, meaning everyone who's not pure magic, is skating around vulnerable to VR Attack. Deckers have been given the ability to be directly useful as a result. We don't see skinlink or DNI cables tech b/c they don't want that avenue of attack closed. You want the good bonuses you gotta have the tech and the role to keep your sh*t from getting bricked.
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A character may use a Free Action to activate, deactivate, or switch the mode on any device that he is linked to by a direct neural interface through either a wired or wireless link.
While I think a lot of things make a lot more sense if DNI is limited to things that you are plugged into directly (for instance, many of the action economy benefits of a smartlink and the noise reduction benefit of a datajack), it appears that you can use a DNI interface with a wireless connection. Since there aren't much in the way of rules about connecting devices through other devices, it also seems like the only way to be able to control contact lenses with your mind. Honestly, it seems like they started writing about it from a classic PAN perspective and then just changed it half way through. The whole thing would make sense if you could connect your devices to your comlink and then DNI to your comlink with a wire.
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We don't see skinlink or DNI cables tech b/c they don't want that avenue of attack closed. You want the good bonuses you gotta have the tech and the role to keep your sh*t from getting bricked.
Cyberdecks and data-
jacks come with a meter of built-in retractable microfila-
ment data cable, or you can always buy a cable for about
five nuyen per meter (some devices, especially those in-
stalled in buildings, are connected by cables to mitigate
noise)
DNI cables very much exist. Skinlink doesn't yet, but I expect to see it show up at some point.
As regards other points brought up in this thread:
Many of those good bonuses are *Wireless* bonuses, not DNI bonuses. The presumption is that DNI enters into it at some point (because pulling your commlink out of your pocket to interact with it in order to eject a clip seems like a more involved task then just ejecting it normally), but whether you are directly connected via cable, or connected by wireless, the feature is categorized as a wireless function. So, yeah, you could connect to it by wire, but you'd still (for some reason) have to have the wireless turned on in order to get the wireless benefit (such as the action economy stuff that was obviously intended to only require a DNI).
Important to remember - DNI =/= Direct Connection. DC requires a wire (data taps being a potential exception, but the wording is unclear, which is an entirely different conversation), DNI doesn't.
A GM could house rule some "wireless" functionality to still work without requiring matrix connectivity - just some means to connect to your DNI. This would include things like the tripod's ability to fold up, deploy, or detach as a free action (since this is really just sending a mental command to the device), but not things such as the Smartgun system's dice pool bonus (which requires matrix access to make use of external resources). The rules conflate the two in order to, like you mention, give hackers something to do, even though many don't make sense.
Wireless is handier than running cables to everything (especially since the concept of a switch seems to have vanished from the world thus requiring you to have a datajack or trode set for each device you'd want to connect to wirelessly), which is probably why they wrote the rules in such a way that they assume that your DNI is wireless enabled, but if you opt to connect to things by wire, they end up looking very odd.
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A character may use a Free Action to activate, deactivate, or switch the mode on any device that he is linked to by a direct neural interface through either a wired or wireless link.
While I think a lot of things make a lot more sense if DNI is limited to things that you are plugged into directly (for instance, many of the action economy benefits of a smartlink and the noise reduction benefit of a datajack), it appears that you can use a DNI interface with a wireless connection. Since there aren't much in the way of rules about connecting devices through other devices, it also seems like the only way to be able to control contact lenses with your mind. Honestly, it seems like they started writing about it from a classic PAN perspective and then just changed it half way through. The whole thing would make sense if you could connect your devices to your comlink and then DNI to your comlink with a wire.
This is the only thing I can find that implies a wireless DNI connection. Doesn't matter in the long run though, since using the deck wirelessly to hack is not an option. I still can't find any way to provide DNI wirelessly, as the only methods specified were the ones that I quoted before (trodes, datajack, implanted device).
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I still can't find any way to provide DNI wirelessly, as the only methods specified were the ones that I quoted before (trodes, datajack, implanted device)
Would you say datajacks are not wireless-capable devices?
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I like the idea that you have to connect a physical wire to the device you want to form your persona on (control rig directly to vehicle/RCC or data jack/trodes directly to external cyberdeck/commlink/RCC), but in that case why would data jack have a wireless bonus...??
There are several examples where you use your interface to establish a wireless link to an external device. Detonate a wireless enabled hand grenade, for example.
The book seem to make a difference between remote control through the matrix and using a wireless link to your DNI (that is why i asked about range for wireless DNI.... remote control through the matrix have no range limit). p. 208 medkits can be controlled remotely via the Matrix or wireless link. Drone on p. 215 can be controlled directly via wireless link or through the matrix...
In SR5 it is pretty obvious that you connect wireless (that wireless is default) and that using an old school wire is just a cumbersome alternative you basically only use between your cyberdeck and a slaved device to bypass host ratings, between control rig and your vehicle or your RCC and your vehicle since all driving tests will count as matrix actions and be subject to noise. In cases you want your internal augmentations to communicate with each other you often get added benefits if you do it wireless rather than using your nervous system....
Also, DNI is not even required at all if you hack from AR (as far as i can tell anyway).
When it comes to AR hacking you just need an image link (for example from a pair of wireless enabled contact lenses), a wireless enabled AR glove and a cyberdeck. No need for trodes or a data jack. And theoretically you should be able to leave your cyberdeck in the van (this prevent you from using it to establish a physical direct connection to bypass master device or host ratings.... but then again, if you already have a mark on a host then you get a direct connection to all slaved devices out on the grid when you enter it...)
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Also, DNI is not even required at all if you hack from AR (as far as i can tell anyway).
I said that back in post 3 of this conversation.
The issue as i see it is there is a difference between DNI and pan subscription are not the same-thing. Wireless active bonus is subscribed to your PAN, DNI, is your interacting with some gadget that requires full direct connection. See Decks and Control Rigs.
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I still can't find any way to provide DNI wirelessly, as the only methods specified were the ones that I quoted before (trodes, datajack, implanted device)
Would you say datajacks are not wireless-capable devices?
No - but a datajack is an implanted device. I'm talking about a non-implanted, wireless method of gaining DNI - there's no such thing.
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I still can't find any way to provide DNI wirelessly, as the only methods specified were the ones that I quoted before (trodes, datajack, implanted device)
Would you say datajacks are not wireless-capable devices?
No - but a datajack is an implanted device. I'm talking about a non-implanted, wireless method of gaining DNI - there's no such thing.
what about trodes?
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Trodes have to be attached to your head to work. You can't just have the trodes sitting across the room and get their benefit.
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I don't particularly care where the device granting DNI is located (it's a given that will be on your head in some fashion) - just the device you are DNI connecting to.
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Trodes have to be attached to your head to work. You can't just have the trodes sitting across the room and get their benefit.
But the question is the distance to the persona forming device, rather than the DNI granting device, is it not?
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Trodes have to be attached to your head to work. You can't just have the trodes sitting across the room and get their benefit.
But the question is the distance to the persona forming device, rather than the DNI granting device, is it not?
Indeed, RHat, it is about the distance between the decker and his/her deck.
RCC & Cyberdeck are both wireless enabled. Can I go to the meet, leave my deck in the van, and still hack/Jump-in if I need to? Can I leave it in my apartment?
And the answer there is no.
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Trodes have to be attached to your head to work. You can't just have the trodes sitting across the room and get their benefit.
But the question is the distance to the persona forming device, rather than the DNI granting device, is it not?
Indeed, RHat, it is about the distance between the decker and his/her deck.
RCC & Cyberdeck are both wireless enabled. Can I go to the meet, leave my deck in the van, and still hack/Jump-in if I need to? Can I leave it in my apartment?
And the answer there is no.
Do you have a citation on that? It doesn't seem quite right to me - after all, a datajack can work wirelessly. Other than old school cyberpunk tropes, there's not a lot of reason why that wireless connection wouldn't be sufficient for working your deck and jumping in.
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Just the last 20 years of Shadowrun, mostly. Plus there's the quote that I cited earlier, which states that you can only get DNI via trodes, datajack, or implanted device. I realize that a datajack can be wireless, but it just seems completely counter to the whole system to suddenly be able to use a cyberdeck from 100m away to hack something another 100m from the deck. All DNI requires a sim module, which is covered here:
Sim Module: This commlink upgrade gives you the simsense experience, translating computer data into neural signals that allow you to directly experience simsense programs and augmented reality. A sim module must be accessed via a direct neural interface (trodes, datajack, or implanted commlink). Sim modules are a must-have for virtual reality of sorts, including VR clubs, VR games, simsense, and darker virtual pleasures. Sim modules can be modified for hot-sim, which opens up the full (and dangerous) range of VR experiences.
It sure seems like you're supposed to be damn close to the device to get DNI. This is the problem, in my opinion, with the term "wireless bonus." It implies all kinds of things that have never been true. Here's the text on a datajack:
Datajack: A datajack gives you a direct neural interface (p. 222), which can be handy in a lot of situations. It also comes with a retractable spool of micro-cable (about a meter long) that lets you directly interface
with any electronic device via a universal access cable. Datajacks are equipped with their own cache of storage memory for downloading or saving files. Two datajack users can string a fiberoptic cable between themselves
to conduct a private mental communication immune to radio interception or eavesdropping.
Wireless: The datajack gives you Rating 1 noise reduction.
Datajacks have never been able to be accessed wirelessly, not even in 4th edition. Why would that suddenly change now simply because of an omission of detail, or the poorly-phrased "wireless bonus?" I mean, a wireless bonus can be applied to items that should not have wireless bonuses, like chameleon suits. I'm pretty confident that "wireless bonus" isn't supposed to mean the device is actually wireless. I'm pretty confident that the bonus is meant to be applied when the device has access to the Matrix.
it means nearly every piece of gear and cyberware benefits dramatically from being “meshed” into your wireless personal area network and the Matrix as a whole.
When an item has additional functionality when connected to the Matrix, it’s described under the “Wireless” entry in the item’s description. This functionality only applies when the device has access to the Matrix, which is most of the time unless your gamemaster says otherwise, like if you’ve entered a wireless static zone.
And there's the text on wireless bonuses. I've highlighted the pertinent parts. And then there's the bit I've highlighted in orange, which just makes the whole previous section seem confusing. Think about what this implies if datajacks can be treated as devices on the Grids. Someone could hack a datajack directly, which gives access to all devices that are connected via that datajack, even if that datajack is currently in use. What about the Device Rating of that datajack? Why hack a vehicle that is being rigged, when you could hack the datajack and get access to the rigger's brain directly? Hell, since a datajack has no Sleaze rating, it's perfectly visible to everything on the Grid, right? Let's just pour some biofeedback damage right into someone's brain. It gets absurd pretty quickly.
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The connection you have to his brain goes through his sim module which is located on his cyberdeck. But from the matrix you don't see his brain, datajack, sim module or cyberdeck. From the matrix all this will have one icon. The persona icon.
If this had been SR5 then I world have agreed with you that you need to either physically press buttons on your cyberdeck (for AR hacking) or physically connect your cyberdeck with a wire to your datajack.
But in SR5 you can establish a wireless link from your DNI to an external device. Such as a wireless triggered hand grenade you just thrown. Why not your cyberdeck?!
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The whole "last 20 years of Shadowrun" reasoning, though, doesn't really apply here - because we're talking about an element that hasn't been there for the last 20 years of Shadowrun; relatively, this is recent. Further, that logic really can't justify a flat "no" on a rules question - the answer that justifies is more "the rules don't really say, but...".
Also, that quote on sim modules demonstrates that a sim module requires DNI, but not the reverse. In any case, it doesn't mandate a physical connection to the sim module.
Fact is, the SR5 general rule is that anything save a throwback has a wireless connection. There's no specific rule to override that for datajacks, so far as I know.
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The whole reasoning that using a DNI requires physical connection stems from the sentence that e.g. datajack is required to form a DNI. However, the only argument that this implies physical connection between the datajack and target device is '20 years of Shadowrun', which does not take into account the complete rebuild of Matrix since Crash 2.0.
Just thinking out loud - apologies if I'm confusing this, AFB - if jumping in requires a direct connection, would you be completely prohibited from jumping into flying drones, unless those are attached by a few klicks of physical cable? I'm fairly certain that remote jump-ins are explicitly mentioned in the rulebook. If it's not, jumping into drones just got nerfed (at least from my perspective) into oblivion.
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To be fair, Datajacks in SR4 did require a physical connection, and that would certainly be taking Crash 2.0 and the aftermath into account.
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To be fair, Datajacks in SR4 did require a physical connection, and that would certainly be taking Crash 2.0 and the aftermath into account.
They allowed a physical connection, but had the same option for wireless connectivity as all other "active" cyberware. The whole point of the wireless matrix (both in 4th and 5th) is that you can have the trodes or datajack on your head, the sim module in your left pocket, and the commlink/deck in the right next to your smartgun. All connected, but without a single cable.
So to answer the OP's question: Yes, totally. The connection between your datajack and deck follows the same rules as any other connection between devices, unless somebody can provide a quote to the contrary.
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So what you guys are saying is that a person with a datajack can remotely connect to a device hundreds of meters away and establish DNI with it, then use that device to perform more remote hacking hundreds of meters away from that position? Good luck with maintaining some semblance of balance in your games if that's the case. Cause every hacker in the world would be leaving their deck in a secure location that they're not at, so that GOD can't find them.
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So what you guys the rules are saying
FTFY
I'd also point out the rules on noise/decreased signal rating...and the fact that you want your deck at hand when it's time to bail ;)
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yes, it seem as if you can remotely connect to a device (such as a grenade) and use your brain interface to control it (or in this case detonate it as a free action).
SR5 p. 181 Wireless Link
This is the safest way to throw a grenade in some aspects, but it also comes with some risk and effort. The thrower (or anyone else who has a mark on the grenade) can detonate it by a wireless link. This requires the attacker to have a direct neural interface to the linked device and use the Change Wireless Device Mode Free Action. This method also reduces scatter. Without a DNI the attacker must use the Change Linked Device Mode Simple Action in their next or any of their subsequent Action Phases to detonate the grenade and scatter is not reduced.
but i would probably never want to leave my deck undefended if my persona is traced. that thing is the single most valuable item i owe. you also want your deck at hand when you want to establish a physical direct connection to a slaved device.... but it does open up a strange situation where you hand over the cyberdeck to your B&E expert that goes in and connect it to a slaved device(!)
I agree with Namikaze that somehow it feel very "wrong" and not very SRish that you don't need to have the cyberdeck or commlink on your body (but I honestly can't find anything substantial that indicate that you are forced to do it; quite the opposite...)
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So what you guys are saying is that a person with a datajack can remotely connect to a device hundreds of meters away and establish DNI with it, then use that device to perform more remote hacking hundreds of meters away from that position? Good luck with maintaining some semblance of balance in your games if that's the case. Cause every hacker in the world would be leaving their deck in a secure location that they're not at, so that GOD can't find them.
They'd probably suffer noise for both locations, as well as both the distance from the deck and the distance between the deck and the target, but in this case the rules would need to specifically disallow it as it would be an exception to the general rule.
As for where Convergence hits, I'd need to reread that section to be certain.
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but it does open up a strange situation where you hand over the cyberdeck to your B&E expert that goes in and connect it to a slaved device(!)
If you had to plug the deck directly into your head, you could just give the B&E guy a commlink to plug into the target system, same result.
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So what you guys the rules are saying
FTFY
I'd also point out the rules on noise/decreased signal rating...and the fact that you want your deck at hand when it's time to bail ;)
Technically speaking, that's not the rules that are saying this. It's an omission of clarity, and a completely different way to look at datajacks. A similar situation has happened in the thread about summoning multiple unbound spirits. In every other edition of SR, the summoner can only summon one spirit. In SR5, there is no such rule listed. It's not likely that the functionality of a common element of the franchise would change so dramatically, but this is the way that it is.
Also, please don't be snarky with me.
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and a completely different way to look at datajacks
Only different from what you wish the rules to be.
Making cables between your personal electronics go away was the whole point of the PAN concept introduced in 4th edition, and there is absolutely nothing in the rules or fluff of either edition suggesting that datajacks, trode nets, or implanted sim modules should be different. They connect to your neural system on one end (that's the DNI), on the other end it's a bog-standard device with wireless functionality and everything. Also, as others have pointed out, your interpretation would render several pieces of gear unusable.
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Only different from what you wish the rules to be.
Not different from what I wish the rules to be. Different from the rules of the previous four editions of the game. Seriously, why are you intentionally trying to antagonize me? Please don't assume anything about me, because you know not of what you speak.
there is absolutely nothing in the rules or fluff of either edition
Are you sure about that, Sengir? Because here's the first sentence of the description of a datajack from 4th edition:
Datajack: A datajack allows a user to directly interface with any electronic device via a fiberoptic cable.
And here's the description of the Jack Out action, which specifically mentions "unplugging":
In VR, it means removing your connection from your commlink, either by removing trodes, unplugging a datajack, or shutting off a neural connection.
Look, as I stated, it's entirely possible that the point of these omissions that are turning up were intentional. And if that's the case, then I'll roll with it. But having omitted the rule on datajacks requiring a wire, and unbound spirits being limited to one, seems to be completely counter to every other editions of the game. So, in an effort to get some sort of official word on the matter, I've asked Bull to look into it via the Missions forum. Because I think that an issue like this requires some clarity.
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Here's the real thing, Namikaze: Your reasoning is simply not sufficient for a flat "no". You can argue that RAI might be one way, but certainly you must acknowledge that it is debatable, yes?
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but it does open up a strange situation where you hand over the cyberdeck to your B&E expert that goes in and connect it to a slaved device(!)
If you had to plug the deck directly into your head, you could just give the B&E guy a commlink to plug into the target system, same result.
Commlink does not have attack or sleaze attributes.
B&E expert might not have the required hacking skills to do the job.
To get a physical direct connection to bypass host ratings you need to physically connect the cyberdeck to the slaved device. Connecting the deck wireless to the slaved device let you hack it, but not bypassing master ratings.
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Here's the real thing, Namikaze: Your reasoning is simply not sufficient for a flat "no". You can argue that RAI might be one way, but certainly you must acknowledge that it is debatable, yes?
Which is why I stated that I have asked for some sort of quasi-official clarification. There are two issues that are both raised in separate threads regarding essentially the same thing: an omission of detail. Maybe the changes are supposed to have taken place. Maybe not. Yes, I agree that it's debatable. But Sengir isn't debating - he's trying to get a rise out of me, for whatever reason.
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Here's the real thing, Namikaze: Your reasoning is simply not sufficient for a flat "no". You can argue that RAI might be one way, but certainly you must acknowledge that it is debatable, yes?
I've stated twice now that I agree that by RAW, this is possible. I have also stated, repeatedly, that the rules are weirdly different. The text between editions is almost identical, which leads me to believe the omission is more likely the result of copy-pasta rather than actual intent.
Which is why I stated that I have asked for some sort of quasi-official clarification. There are two issues that are both raised in separate threads regarding essentially the same thing: an omission of detail. Maybe the changes are supposed to have taken place. Maybe not. Yes, I agree that it's debatable. But Sengir isn't debating - he's trying to get a rise out of me, for whatever reason.
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guys, what the hell are we even arguing about here?
this is SR5, everything is wireless, including your underpants, can of coke and your trode net.
Of course you can leave your stuff elsewhere and connect through it, you're just subject to noise; which as anyone who has seen the noise table will confirm, is a really bad idea.
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Different from the rules of the previous four editions of the game.
For the first three editions, being different was the whole point. People running cables from their heads to their smartguns and comically oversized decks was simply no longer deemed realistic.
As for the fourth:
Are you sure about that, Sengir? Because here's the first sentence of the description of a datajack from 4th edition:
Datajack: A datajack allows a user to directly interface with any electronic device via a fiberoptic cable.
Keyword "allows". A datajack allows you to plug in a cable. A sim module allows you to interpret simsense data. None of that says anything about their wireless capabilities.
@Xenon
To get a physical direct connection to bypass host ratings you need to physically connect the cyberdeck to the slaved device. Connecting the deck wireless to the slaved device let you hack it, but not bypassing master ratings.
Admittedly this is influenced by real-world computer logic, but my reading of the rules for direct connections is that the defining question reads "does the signal come in over the UDC?". Therefore,
Target<---- Wire ----> Deck
is no different from
Target<--- Wire --->[Wireless retransmission]<--- Wire --->Deck
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Admittedly this is influenced by real-world computer logic, but my reading of the rules for direct connections is that the defining question reads "does the signal come in over the UDC?". Therefore,
Target<---- Wire ----> Deck
is no different from
Target<--- Wire --->[Wireless retransmission]<--- Wire --->Deck
I use something similar personally, but in this case (as opposed to wireless DNI) I'm pretty certain it's not RAW, so I consider it a house rule. It does resolve the 'no direct connection for TMs' issue though.
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The way i read it data tap seem to give you a direct connection to both devices the cable is connected to but only if you plug in your cyberdeck into the data tap with a wire. And that you can use it for wireless retransmission as well (which is great for a TM that wasn't too access a weird or throwback device or a hacker that want to hack a wired or throwback device while not being with his party), but in that case without a direct connection and without bypassing master ratings.
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I use something similar personally, but in this case (as opposed to wireless DNI) I'm pretty certain it's not RAW, so I consider it a house rule. It does resolve the 'no direct connection for TMs' issue though.
Like I said, this reading is influenced by real-world computing: Connecting to your cellphone via USB grants access with far less limits than connecting the via Bluetooth, the logic being that plugging in a cable shows you are in physical possession of the phone and are not some hacker sitting in the neighboring room. But whether the device at the other end of the cable is just relaying data sent from elsewhere does not matter to the phone, in fact it doesn't even notice.
But on a strict reading, such "tunneling" may indeed not work in SR.
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I use something similar personally, but in this case (as opposed to wireless DNI) I'm pretty certain it's not RAW, so I consider it a house rule. It does resolve the 'no direct connection for TMs' issue though.
Like I said, this reading is influenced by real-world computing: Connecting to your cellphone via USB grants access with far less limits than connecting the via Bluetooth, the logic being that plugging in a cable shows you are in physical possession of the phone and are not some hacker sitting in the neighboring room. But whether the device at the other end of the cable is just relaying data sent from elsewhere does not matter to the phone, in fact it doesn't even notice.
But on a strict reading, such "tunneling" may indeed not work in SR.
I use something similar personally, but in this case (as opposed to wireless DNI) I'm pretty certain it's not RAW, so I consider it a house rule. It does resolve the 'no direct connection for TMs' issue though.
Like I said, this reading is influenced by real-world computing: Connecting to your cellphone via USB grants access with far less limits than connecting the via Bluetooth, the logic being that plugging in a cable shows you are in physical possession of the phone and are not some hacker sitting in the neighboring room. But whether the device at the other end of the cable is just relaying data sent from elsewhere does not matter to the phone, in fact it doesn't even notice.
But on a strict reading, such "tunneling" may indeed not work in SR.
Of course, data sent through wireless transmission could have different headers for the sake of routing, which would allow a device to tell the difference.
If we're to follow the "that way lies madness" line of applying real computing to the Matrix in any edition, that is.
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Of course, data sent through wireless transmission could have different headers for the sake of routing, which would allow a device to tell the difference.
For tunneling, you would take the wired data, headers and data and everything else completely unmodified, and then transmit it as the payload of a wireless packet. It may be possible to detect the extra delay or other side effects of the tunnel (which might also be caused from a cheap knockoff commlink on the other end...), but what arrives on both ends is completely unmodified.
Of course, all that is assuming you want to go down the road of real networks ;)
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I'm not sure if that methodology would be viable for a mesh network like we have in Shadowrun, though - once you hit wireless, your data scatters to the four winds pretty much, not being in the same place again until it hits the endpoint.
Of course, I haven't really read the papers on the subject of mesh networks, so I really don't know.
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All this theorycrafting is wonderful, but the Matrix of Shadowrun is a magical fairy land of makebelieve.
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Given the way it is described, a modern (5e) Datajack appears to be a combination of a data cable reel and external antenna for your internal DNI. Same as attaching an auxiliary antenna to a wireless router to boost signal range. At least that is how I interpret the description.
Trodes are similar, essentially a hair net with a battery pack. You can connect it to your Deck with a cable, or just connect wirelessly from the Trodes to the Deck.
Nothing says they aren't wireless, and the book makes it clear that everything is wireless unless otherwise noted (throwbacks, etc.). Even Bone Lacing is "wireless" even if it has no game effect there are feedback sensors and stress load monitors that all have wireless connectivity worked into the titanium strands for quick diagnostics and status reports.
I fall on the side of the debate that says wireless DNI should be entirely acceptable. There is nothing in the rules to prohibit it, and the fluff supports it.
This comes with downsides though, as if you are wirelessly connected to your Deck (even if you have it on you) and you get hit with a powerful jammer it could generate enough Noise to break your connection to your deck and forcibly jack you out and cause dump shock. That risk becomes much greater the further you are from your deck, and the Noise between you and your Deck should stack with the Noise from your Deck to the Grid. You also lose the ability to manually reboot it if you are link-locked. It should be a rare situation for the Decker to try to hack when their deck isn't in their hands, just because of all the downsides. Everything has a price.
There are tactical purposes I can think of for using a Deck remotely: If you have to leave your bag with Security when entering a building; Hacking remotely from a cheap throwaway deck to rack up OS and intentionally instigate convergence at a location you are not at; Letting someone else sneak your deck into a secure building to direct connect to something.
However, most of the time it is just a bad idea.
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Establishing a Wireless DNI is possible, because Interfaces and (Digital) Connections are not the same Category:
A DNI is an Interface: A mean of translating the Signals of your Body - in this case, your "Brainwaves" - into Code your Devices can interpret. Its like using a keyboard and mouse, or click-blinking with your AR-contacts, or using subvokal commands etc., just faster. So if you get yourself some gear that can establish such a connection - like a Datajack or Trodes - and attach it properly on (or implant it into) your Body, you can switch that gear to wireless mode and remotely communicate via DNI with other wireless Devices like your Commlink or RCC - Just like you would use a wireless keyboard or mouse with your Computer.
A Wireless Connection is a mean of connecting a device with other devices (which can be also your the interface gearpieces of your choice).
So as long as Catalyst doesnt explicitly state that you cant use a Commlink/Deck/RCC remotely or that you cant use a DNI for Wireless connections (because, I dont know, the new Matrix Protocols forbidd it?), its safe to assume that you can.
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In other to do that trick then either a datajack or a cellphone would be needed, right? You need to have the device either in your possession or part of your PAN. How else would you be able to transmit the signal that allows you to communicate with your device stored elsewhere?
Having your deck slaved to your phone wouldn't be the smartest idea. It would reduce functionality quite a bit. And if you are using a datajack to form DNI with your remote deck then you can't have DNI with your phone or pan formed by it.
The question is then how far can device be apart and then still be a part of a pan formed by a phone or deck? The deck, having the better antenna the answer would be 100 meters or even more but the phone?
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I'm surprised no one has brought up the absolute BS that is that RAW, even without a DNI (using just other wireless things like AR gloves and glasses) the decker could use his deck from a distance while the stealthier/beefier/more magical members of his team bring it in and plug it into whatever they need him to hack for a direct connection.
This'd be possible if there's any way to wirelessly use your deck-- Which there has to be since you can use AR to control it without having to touch it, without DNI. If the decker's just sitting in the van outside then he shouldn't be far enough away to worry about noise-- At least not more than he'll be able to overcome with noise reduction. So as long as the decker can just hand someone his deck, he doesn't need to enter the building.
Meanwhile TMs still can't make a direct connection at all...
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guys, what the hell are we even arguing about here?
this is SR5, everything is wireless, including your underpants, can of coke and your trode net.
Of course you can leave your stuff elsewhere and connect through it, you're just subject to noise; which as anyone who has seen the noise table will confirm, is a really bad idea.
This. Players and GMs have always talk about or questioned ways to protect their expensive equipment. One way is to slave it to your Commlink so your Cyberdeck or RCC can hide behind it. In most cases, a player would have both their commlink and RCC/Deck on them to avoid noise, but there are times when such isn't the case.
If a Rigger decides to leave his RCC in the van and slave it to his Commlink, it works because he has a DNI to his Commlink to form his Matrix Persona and he is using that to control his RCC. A Rigger accessing via commlink can also Hot-Sim as long as his Commlink has the Simsense module add-on. The limiting factor of slaving an RCC to a Commlink is that the commlink cannot run cyber programs and is subject to noise distance between the two depending on how far the RCC is from the runner. Through your commlink using the control device action, you can change programs on your RCC and do what your normally do using your RCC. The ONLY limiting factor is noise, which cannot be reduced between commlink and RCC.
Example - Ziggler the Rigger decided to leave the safety of his Van and join his crew directly, he made the choice of leaving his precious RCC and slave it to his commlink instead. Taking a couple Steel Lynx and Fly Spy's, he has no issues once he reaches a distance of 100m. But he soon starts to suffer noise penalties as the group gets further from his ride and deeper into a forest up ahead. It has dense foliage, so he suffers a -1 noise penalty for the distance from his RCC and -1 for the dense foliage for a total of -2. His partners hack open a vehicle bay door and they begin to descend into a fortified bunker. Ziggler is starting to have problems because of the thick concrete and steel structure, he is suffering an additional -3 penalty for the 15m thick bunker walls leaving him with a grand total of -5 to all his dice rolls when controlling his drones. He sacrifices running programs to boost his signal strength, now wishing he brought the RCC with him instead.
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I'm surprised no one has brought up the absolute BS that is that RAW, even without a DNI (using just other wireless things like AR gloves and glasses) the decker could use his deck from a distance while the stealthier/beefier/more magical members of his team bring it in and plug it into whatever they need him to hack for a direct connection.
This'd be possible if there's any way to wirelessly use your deck-- Which there has to be since you can use AR to control it without having to touch it, without DNI. If the decker's just sitting in the van outside then he shouldn't be far enough away to worry about noise-- At least not more than he'll be able to overcome with noise reduction. So as long as the decker can just hand someone his deck, he doesn't need to enter the building.
Meanwhile TMs still can't make a direct connection at all...
We have a special name for this absolute BS around here; we call it teamwork. Or in GM-leetspeak: allowing two separate players a significant piece of spotlight at the same time.
And I still believe noise (jack/trodes <-> deck) should apply in this situation, so this shouldn't go completely out of hand. Plus - looking at the section on how building security is designed, you can guarantee some wireless prevention in any secure area. If this is possible (and I claim it is by RAW), then surely some countermeasures are being actively employed (again, reading the GM section I believe they already are, just that not everyone takes this into account when planning runs). Not to mention that given the price of a deck, most deckers would probably be quite reluctant to leave it for a considerable length of time. And if your player is not, make sure he looses one when drek hits the iFan (or at least make sure he understands that this is an option).
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If the Decker isn't in the building and the target is inside a Faraday Cage, with sharp auto-closing doors so even datacables aren't possible... "Okay, we're here, let's pl- what do you mean we just lost wifi?" "Faraday Cage, mate." "But, there are two patrols between us and the Decker!" "We're boned."
As for TMs, the easily-made datatap-ruling is a nice solution to that.
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If the Decker isn't in the building and the target is inside a Faraday Cage, with sharp auto-closing doors so even datacables aren't possible... "Okay, we're here, let's pl- what do you mean we just lost wifi?" "Faraday Cage, mate." "But, there are two patrols between us and the Decker!" "We're boned."
While inside the cage you would probably also lose comms with your decker on the outside...