Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: belaran on <06-24-16/0312:20>
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Hi all,
I was looking at why a magical PC may need (or not) a magical lodge, and all it says about in the magic chapter of the core rulebook, is that the lodge create a mana barrier equals to its rating. But surely, there is other value for it, right ?
For instance, I recall - but maybe wrongly, from the previous edition you needed a lodge to bind a spirit or learn a spell... So what are the other usage for a lodge, besides the mana barrier ?
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The background count inside is aligned to you and your tradition, allowing you to cast without any penalties - which also explains why you want to call spirits and learn spells inside: No distractions.
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and you know if you want to learn any spells:
If you want to learn alone, you can buy a spell formula.
If you want a living, breathing teacher, they usually expensive,
but usually worth every bit of the jing you spend. Either
way, you’ll need a magical lodge of your own tradition
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"You need it to learn spells, perform rituals, and craft foci, and in a pinch you can use it to protect yourself from magical threats." (SR5 p.280).
- Ritual spellcasting requires a magical lodge with a minimum rating equal to the Force of the ritual spell being cast (SR5 p.296).
- Learning a spell requires a magical lodge; the lodge rating sets the limit for the learning test (SR5 p.299).
- Creating a focus (artificing) requires a magical lodge with a minimum rating equal to the Force of the focus formula (SR5 p.306).
- Conjuring or enhancing an ally spirit requires a lodge with a minimum rating of the ally's Force (Street Grimoire p.201).
- Binding a free spirit requires a lodge with a minimum rating of the spirit's Force (Street Grimoire p.204).
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If you use Special Work Area lifestyle expense and get +2 to your pools for summoning, ritials, and enchanting while in the Magicial loge but it cost you 1,000 newyen a month to keep, no one else will get the bonus, and if other people use your Magical lodge you have a chance to lose it until your get it "re-organized" the back the way you like.
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If you use Special Work Area lifestyle expense and get +2 to your pools for summoning, ritials, and enchanting while in the Magicial loge but it cost you 1,000 newyen a month to keep, no one else will get the bonus, and if other people use your Magical lodge you have a chance to lose it until your get it "re-organized" the back the way you like.
????? What does this have to do with the Functions of a Lodge? Color me confused. 8)
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If you use Special Work Area lifestyle expense and get +2 to your pools for summoning, ritials, and enchanting while in the Magicial loge but it cost you 1,000 newyen a month to keep, no one else will get the bonus, and if other people use your Magical lodge you have a chance to lose it until your get it "re-organized" the back the way you like.
????? What does this have to do with the Functions of a Lodge? Color me confused. 8)
@Tym Jalynsfein
Hu... everything... A magic lodge is a form of crafting station just like a box of tools, a shop, or a facility is. In answer to belaran's question "But surely, there is other value for it, right ?" Here is that other value. It is not only a magical barrier but a crafting station which can even be enhanced to in crease summoning, binding, artifice, enchanting, ritual spell casting, and Assensing. That makes it extremely useful at times. Just like a good mechanics shop might be a really good thing for a rigger or a armorer's shop for a street samurai.
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If you use Special Work Area lifestyle expense and get +2 to your pools for summoning, ritials, and enchanting while in the Magicial loge but it cost you 1,000 newyen a month to keep, no one else will get the bonus, and if other people use your Magical lodge you have a chance to lose it until your get it "re-organized" the back the way you like.
????? What does this have to do with the Functions of a Lodge? Color me confused. 8)
@Tym Jalynsfein
Hu... everything... A magic lodge is a form of crafting station just like a box of tools, a shop, or a facility is. In answer to belaran's question "But surely, there is other value for it, right ?" Here is that other value. It is not only a magical barrier but a crafting station which can even be enhanced to in crease summoning, binding, artifice, enchanting, ritual spell casting, and Assensing. That makes it extremely useful at times. Just like a good mechanics shop might be a really good thing for a rigger or a armorer's shop for a street samurai.
Except that you can do everybit of that without ever talking about "Special Work Area" from Lifestyles. Not sure why that particular path was needed... :)
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I think most average street-mages don't need a magical lodge most of the time. Most of the things you need it for are pretty esoteric, e.g. most mages (especially starting out) aren't doing ritual spellcasting or artificing their own foci or summoning ally spirits or binding free spirits. The one thing most mages will want to do fairly early in their careers is learn new spells, and you can achieve that with a temporary lodge using reagents at a better cost economy.
For example, if you can manage a 3 on the learning test (Spellcasting + Intuition), you can learn a new spell in 4 days (12 divided by 3), which requires 4 days of a temporary magical lodge at force 3, which is 12 reagents or 240 nuyen. (You can set up the temporary lodge in 3 hours each day and then study for 8, and still have time to do stuff in the evening and get a good night's sleep.) By contrast a permanent Force-3 lodge costs 1500 nuyen (for which you could also learn 6 spells at 240 nuyen), takes 3 days just to set up, and is vulnerable to pillaging by your enemies if you have them.
That said, if you want to get into ritual spellcasting or any of that other stuff of if you've just got the money to burn and wanna have a cool base to call your own then there's no harm in getting yourself a permanent lodge.
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So you pick up those 6 spells via temporary Lodge for 1,440 nuyen. Now learn your seventh and eighth spells, and all the ones after that. Not to mention anyone who wants Watchers or other useful Ritual spells. Or artificers who do their own foci. A temporary lodge of low quality might be cheaper in the short term, but the long run will see a real lodge being much more useful and practical. As far as the concerns about enemies targeting your Lodge; they could target your massive crate of reagents too, as you're going to need a lot of them. A Lodge can be moved given a bit of time anyways.
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So you pick up those 6 spells via temporary Lodge for 1,440 nuyen. Now learn your seventh and eighth spells, and all the ones after that. Not to mention anyone who wants Watchers or other useful Ritual spells. Or artificers who do their own foci. A temporary lodge of low quality might be cheaper in the short term, but the long run will see a real lodge being much more useful and practical. As far as the concerns about enemies targeting your Lodge; they could target your massive crate of reagents too, as you're going to need a lot of them. A Lodge can be moved given a bit of time anyways.
I mean, it's a play-style thing. If you're just starting out and money is scarce and you're trying to save up for expensive foci or whatever maybe you don't need to invest in the expensive lodge right away (especially when you're giving your enemies a target they can knock down, in which case you've just sunk the cost of it anyway). Six spells is also 30 karma of gameplay and if you want to get into ritual spells right away instead of initiating or bonding foci or raising/learning skills then by all means get a permanent lodge; my theory is that for most mages by the time you want to do that you'll be able to afford the nuyen for it anyway and it won't matter, it's karma that's the more precious resource at that point. Early on though you probably want to learn new spells quickly and 240 nuyen a pop (with no set-up time for the lodge) can be a lot more appealing.
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If you use Special Work Area lifestyle expense and get +2 to your pools for summoning, ritials, and enchanting while in the Magicial loge but it cost you 1,000 newyen a month to keep, no one else will get the bonus, and if other people use your Magical lodge you have a chance to lose it until your get it "re-organized" the back the way you like.
????? What does this have to do with the Functions of a Lodge? Color me confused. 8)
@Tym Jalynsfein
Hu... everything... A magic lodge is a form of crafting station just like a box of tools, a shop, or a facility is. In answer to belaran's question "But surely, there is other value for it, right ?" Here is that other value. It is not only a magical barrier but a crafting station which can even be enhanced to in crease summoning, binding, artifice, enchanting, ritual spell casting, and Assensing. That makes it extremely useful at times. Just like a good mechanics shop might be a really good thing for a rigger or a armorer's shop for a street samurai.
Except that you can do everybit of that without ever talking about "Special Work Area" from Lifestyles. Not sure why that particular path was needed... :)
Needed no. But you can only use it if you have a space specific to the skill, which means the only way I know of to get +2 dice pool outside of character creation and Foci is "Special Work Area". Since a magic lodge is the only way to apply that to magic they are connected. If your looking at ways to increase your dicepool then magic lodge has an added ability thought "Special Work Area" to do that for you. While yes it is a specific location. When considering the beifits of a magic lodge that is a consideration of note.
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If you use Special Work Area lifestyle expense and get +2 to your pools for summoning, ritials, and enchanting while in the Magicial loge but it cost you 1,000 newyen a month to keep, no one else will get the bonus, and if other people use your Magical lodge you have a chance to lose it until your get it "re-organized" the back the way you like.
????? What does this have to do with the Functions of a Lodge? Color me confused. 8)
@Tym Jalynsfein
Hu... everything... A magic lodge is a form of crafting station just like a box of tools, a shop, or a facility is. In answer to belaran's question "But surely, there is other value for it, right ?" Here is that other value. It is not only a magical barrier but a crafting station which can even be enhanced to in crease summoning, binding, artifice, enchanting, ritual spell casting, and Assensing. That makes it extremely useful at times. Just like a good mechanics shop might be a really good thing for a rigger or a armorer's shop for a street samurai.
Except that you can do everybit of that without ever talking about "Special Work Area" from Lifestyles. Not sure why that particular path was needed... :)
Needed no. But you can only use it if you have a space specific to the skill, which means the only way I know of to get +2 dice pool outside of character creation and Foci is "Special Work Area". Since a magic lodge is the only way to apply that to magic they are connected. If your looking at ways to increase your dicepool then magic lodge has an added ability thought "Special Work Area" to do that for you. While yes it is a specific location. When considering the beifits of a magic lodge that is a consideration of note.
Got it... I see what you are getting at... Thanks. :)
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Where is it said that the bonus of Special Work Area is +2 to relevant dice pools?
In the core rulebook (p370) as well as in Run Faster (p226), it is said that the limit is increased, but I see nothing about the dice pool, and I didn't see anything in the core rulebook errata changing that.
Moreover, it is specified in Run Faster that the Special Work Area can only be applied to a workshop or a garage, so...
I suppose it could be expanded to a lodge, but to be fair it would probably require the lodge to consume one lifestyle option point to get this bonus.
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Where is it said that the bonus of Special Work Area is +2 to relevant dice pools?
In the core rulebook (p370) as well as in Run Faster (p226), it is said that the limit is increased, but I see nothing about the dice pool, and I didn't see anything in the core rulebook errata changing that.
Moreover, it is specified in Run Faster that the Special Work Area can only be applied to a workshop or a garage, so...
I suppose it could be expanded to a lodge, but to be fair it would probably require the lodge to consume one lifestyle option point to get this bonus.
You are correct about it being +2 limit instead of +2 dice pool. Which is still useful for all these tests. That was a typo in my head. The workshop/garage part I dis agree with. It can be applied to as a lifestyle to organize any space increase efficiency. I believe workshops and garages were just examples. Consider that Special Work Areas come from the SR5 book and there are no actual garages in SR5, only tool kits of different sizes. A lodge is already a tool kit with its on equipment and space. I don't see a difference. As far as I can tell they just did not list all the examples possible.
SR5 p374Special Work Area
The place has a workshop, garage, office, studio, or other kind of large area that can hold a specialized work space of some kind. Specialized equipment can be set up “just the way you like it” so tasks can be accomplished quickly and easily. Skill checks relevant to the setting have their Limit increased by 2 when performed in this space.
Cost: +1,000 nuyen a month
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I'm opening this thread again because I have a follow up question. If one deploys a temporary lodge, how long this temporary ones last? Can you use it 'as long as you want' (and for instance do 3 rituals with it in a row)? That seems counter intuitive, however, I did not see (in core SR5) any limitation about that...
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Temporary Magical Lodge: You can create a temporary magical lodge by spending a number of drams of reagents equal to Force of the lodge. The lodge takes one hour per point of Force to create and thereafter lasts until sunrise or sunset, whichever comes first.
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oh darn, my eyes passed over the "lasts until sunrise or sunset'! Thanks!
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Hum, it also means, there is an implicit limit of Force 12 to a temporary lodge - assuming you can assemble it in a way to finish just after dawn/dusk.
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Not if you go far enough towards the poles ...
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:D
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Note the word thereafter. You could start it so that you finish assembling it only minutes after sunrise and that is fine, it will end at sunset.
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Needed no. But you can only use it if you have a space specific to the skill, which means the only way I know of to get +2 dice pool outside of character creation and Foci is "Special Work Area". Since a magic lodge is the only way to apply that to magic they are connected. If your looking at ways to increase your dicepool then magic lodge has an added ability thought "Special Work Area" to do that for you. While yes it is a specific location. When considering the beifits of a magic lodge that is a consideration of note.
I'm pretty sure that the special work area adds +2 to the limit, not the dice pool. (I'd made the same mis-reading at first). Also I seem to recall that it will only apply to one skill (so you could have a summoning work area -- probably a summoning circle -- but you'd need a second work area if you also wanted that bonus for ritual casting, etc.
Still worth it in many cases, especially for summoning and alchemy which you are often doing ahead of time.
(a few days later) Finally looked up the rule, and:
- the +2 is to limit, not dice pool. But
- what is covered is more nebulous. The work in CRB page 374 is "Skill checks relevant to the setting." I've interpreted this as generally being one skill, but really this could be broader than one skill, but could also be limited to less than a full skill. I.E. a workshop for hand-loading ammo and modifying guns probably wouldn't support some other uses of the armory skill, but a workshop for printing, engraving, etc might help both some uses of forgery and some uses of artisan.
But I would not grant it a bonus on all magic. Magicians don't need that much help, there I'd apply it to one skill -- but that is me, not hard and fast RAW.
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My personal solution for applying the Special Work Area bonus to magical things is treating it as a background count (Rating 2). Essentially, taking Special Work Area for your lifestyle is applying the costs of maintaining the magical juice to sustain a small background.
Back in 4th edition they had something similar (Feng Shui) which worked very similarly...