Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Incendax on <08-01-13/2200:57>

Title: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Incendax on <08-01-13/2200:57>
This is a request for background information: So what is going on with these two dragons?

Dunkelzahn seems like a very cool character right up until he blows up for unknown reasons (why did he get blown up?). Then he apparently has a will that hands out incredibly powerful items to lots of different people, some of these items that could have been used to avoid his own assassination. What is going on with that?

He then gets replaced by Hestaby who also takes Lofwyrs position on the Council of Princes... but I can't seem to find much information on Hestaby so it looks like she was just given a lot of fake credibility by writers to make her look important and replace Dunkelzahn really fast (including also winning some kind of dragon pride fight and becoming friends with Harlequinn).

So what is the story?
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: CanRay on <08-01-13/2227:53>
Dunkie died for our sins!!!

I'll let someone else handle this one for once.  ;)
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: calaen on <08-01-13/2233:06>
Well, okay, the way I understand it, Dunkelzahn didn't exactly get offed the way it sounds.  He basically did what he did to slow down or halt the impending return of lovecraftian horrorterrors from the places between the stars, and handed out the magic items to make sure some people who needed them for the upcoming battle against the horrorterrors would have them... or at least, that the items would be in a position to end up in the right hands.

Most of the dragons seem to have the common goal of dealing with the horrorterrors, but don't get the idea that the dragons are remotely altruistic.  Some of them like to play 'champions of metahumanity' but at the end of the day, like everything else with the smallest modicum of power in the 6th world, they've got their own agendas, and often times their own menus.  Look who is on the menu!  (Hint: Dragons don't really do vegan diets.)
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-02-13/0614:03>
Dunkelzahn suicided as the ultimate Blood Magic. He powered a magical mechanical heart with it, gave out all that stuff to get things prepared, possessed a cyberzombie and is trying to slow down the thinning of the metaplanes that would allow the Horrors to come in. Basically, since humanity this time is causing things to go too fast (see Shadowrun Returns for an explanation), he died to slow things down because he believes that this time around, humanity might be able to win.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Rapier on <08-02-13/0956:35>
Dunk's suicide is still something I am angry at the writers about .
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: raggedhalo on <08-02-13/1042:20>
Dunk's death is covered in the Dragonheart novels by Jak Koke.  Definitely worth a read if you want the scoop - you'll benefit from having read Harlequin's Back first, too.

As for Hestaby, check out Survival of the Fittest, Dragons Of The Sixth World, and Clutch of Dragons.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Crimsondude on <08-02-13/1557:19>
Dunk's suicide is still something I am angry at the writers about .

It's not really a suicide since he's not dead.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Red Canti on <08-02-13/1833:32>
Yeah because that makes it any less idiotic.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: ZeConster on <08-02-13/1920:59>
How is it idiotic?
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Lumen on <08-02-13/2048:30>
Dunkie died for our sins!!!

I'll let someone else handle this one for once.  ;)

Though there were some excellent summations CanRay sums it up beautifully!
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Red Canti on <08-02-13/2149:09>
How is it idiotic?
Because it was a better story when it was the Kennedy Assassination in a Sixth World Mileau. Because making that into a convoluted not-really-suicide plot to interfere with an artifact of the Earthdawn setting was asinine.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: ZeConster on <08-02-13/2151:09>
I don't know, it seems pretty Shadowrun-y to add a twist to major events.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Red Canti on <08-02-13/2201:46>
The thing that makes Dunkelzahn being assassinated such a powerful part of Shadowrun Lore is it enforces the idea that no one is unapproachable. That even with all of his political, arcane and physical power, the biggest dog in the Junkyard was still mortal. That he could still die. It's makes a neat little cautionary tale for every person in the setting.

Except the "twist" is, that's not how things are at all. And that's bogus. That's weak. That's ruining a perfectly good premise for some cheap heat on a person who's pretty much put themselves on a bus anyway.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: ZeConster on <08-02-13/2213:59>
Dragons are more dangerous now lore-wise, though - it took Aztlan's entire army to take out a single great dragon, IIRC, and it may have survived (can't remember what happened precisely).

Off-topic, could you please not give your text such an awful color? It hurts the eyes.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-02-13/2230:47>
Spirits intervened, decent chance another Great Dragon sent some over to save him.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Red Canti on <08-02-13/2344:07>
Dragons are more dangerous now lore-wise, though - it took Aztlan's entire army to take out a single great dragon, IIRC, and it may have survived (can't remember what happened precisely).
I wouldn't know much about it. I've only read one fiction of him assaulting an AZT complex or factory and one Blurb from Dunkelzahn's Will. Something about him not understanding him, but still respecting him.

Edit: Sirrurg, that's his name, isn't it?

Quote
Off-topic, could you please not give your text such an awful color? It hurts the eyes.
Squint.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Nath on <08-03-13/0623:48>
Dragons are more dangerous now lore-wise, though - it took Aztlan's entire army to take out a single great dragon, IIRC, and it may have survived (can't remember what happened precisely).
The battle with Sirrurg involved three air task force and one air carrier and its battle group, according to Storm Front (the assess the size of those task forces, when nearly half of Task Force Two and Three aircrafts were either destroyed or forced to disengage, it resulted in at least thirty pilots punching out). No ground forces was involved besides three special forces detachment that initially attacked one of Sirrurg's lair as a bait. It maybe took Aztlan entire air force, but not the entire army.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Tzeentch on <08-03-13/0701:05>
There was a surface contingent engaged almost as soon as he was grounded, and then local militias got involved.

The major Aztlan damage was to their air force. But if their force was at least as large as it was in 2056 (Aztlan, p. 77 says about 5,000 'zoomies' and estimates 60% tooth ratio) then it may have been fairly minor in the grand scheme (wiped out a good chunk of their most advanced stuff, though). But they did lose a significant percentage of their Path of the Sun priesthood (Storm Front, p. 27) and most of their anti-dragon special task troops are dead. And Sirrurg still escaped.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <08-03-13/1500:20>
Dunkelzahn's death was just like pretty much everything in the Sixth World. Nothing is simple. There are always layers behind layers that the common people (even those who are fairly high up or far in) will never see. There are some people who whine about anything to do with Earthdawn or the Enemy. However, pretty much every magic-based adventure or plot point relates back to the Fourth World or earlier in some way. Bugs? They were already present in the 4th world, and the Powers That Be regard them as precursors to the Enemy arriving. The Infected? They existed, in one form or another, during the last cycle, and popped up even before the Awakening, in some cases. Some even slept from one age to the next. Artifacts and lost magics? Goes without saying. Dragons and Immortal Elves? These are only the most flagrant things from the past ages of magic, and so people focus their hate and vitriol there.

Dragons are scary creatures, and Great Dragons more so. An adult dragon can be killed. It isn't easy, but it can happen. A Great Dragon is all but impossible to bring down. But it is possible. However, it takes a massive undertaking, not unlike stopping a hurricane from spinning. Could mortal metahumans accomplish it? Perhaps, given sufficient numbers and resources. But it is not something one should consider lightly.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Rapier on <08-06-13/1140:21>
One of the things that always struck me wrong is why this artefact could not have been created using other means than his suicide. How is that a super knowledgable dragon with pretty much unlimited physical and human resources could not figure out a way to create that artefact or something to that effect another way. Could he have not done a great ghost dance using voluntary subjects to create it? Yes another GGD increases the level of magic but what he did also did and created a rift.

Anyway, im beating a dead horse and ill stop. Tome it still doesnt make sense.

Sorry

Rapier
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-06-13/1226:52>
Blood Magic involving the sacrifice of a Greater Dragon? Yeah, sorry, we mere humans are worth squat compared to that. Plus as cyberzombie he's less vulnerable to the Horrors. Did you not notice? ALL Cyberzombie projects have a dragon behind them. Once they kink out the "dies from essence drain" bugs, they got their troops ready.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: GiraffeShaman on <08-06-13/1746:15>
Quote
Blood Magic involving the sacrifice of a Greater Dragon? Yeah, sorry, we mere humans are worth squat compared to that. Plus as cyberzombie he's less vulnerable to the Horrors. Did you not notice? ALL Cyberzombie projects have a dragon behind them. Once they kink out the "dies from essence drain" bugs, they got their troops ready.
I would guess there is inherent magic power in the title "President of the UCAS" as well. Especially if you believe it has power. Kind of like sacrificing a king in ASOIF.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: CanRay on <08-06-13/1829:19>
Especially when you consider that "President of the UCAS" has both the tradition, history, and thus power of both "President of the USA" and "Prime Minister of Canada" behind it as well.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Crimsondude on <08-06-13/1836:15>
That's one way of looking at it ...
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Sendaz on <08-06-13/1836:48>
Check out Blood Oath by Christopher Farnsworth sometime.

It's where in the late 1860's then President Andrew Johnson binds a Vampire with a smidge of Cajun magic to a  blood oath to protect the President of the United States and the Country.

Adds new meaning to Oaths of Office.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: DeathStrobe on <08-06-13/2050:53>
One of the things that always struck me wrong is why this artefact could not have been created using other means than his suicide. How is that a super knowledgable dragon with pretty much unlimited physical and human resources could not figure out a way to create that artefact or something to that effect another way. Could he have not done a great ghost dance using voluntary subjects to create it? Yes another GGD increases the level of magic but what he did also did and created a rift.

Anyway, im beating a dead horse and ill stop. Tome it still doesnt make sense.

Sorry

Rapier

I always figured it'd have been multiple reasons. I always figured Ghostwalker was suppose to play a bigger role. After all he must have been in some kind of astral prison or something and Dunkelzahn must have known that when Halley's Comet appears, it would have made that prison manifest and the rift would allow Ghostwalker to escape. So he also knew that he needed this magical MacGuffin to be empowered, and it'd have been too difficult to get any other Great Dragon to volunteer for it, and needed to spread around a few items of power, and to free his brother, he probably knew the political fallout of having himself appear to be assassinated would act as a catalyst to ease metahuman relationships. So it all just looked like the perfect storm.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: GiraffeShaman on <08-07-13/0310:16>
Quote
Check out Blood Oath by Christopher Farnsworth sometime.

It's where in the late 1860's then President Andrew Johnson binds a Vampire with a smidge of Cajun magic to a  blood oath to protect the President of the United States and the Country.

Adds new meaning to Oaths of Office.
Until he is slain by Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Slayer.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: BlackMyron on <08-07-13/1832:29>
For all intents and purposes, it was Aztlan that "killed" Dunkelzahn.  And that revelation hasn't sunk in yet in the general world - and may never happen.

Then again, I'm looking forward to seeing the consequences of Aztlan's 'victory' that were hinted at in Storm Front...
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Red Canti on <08-07-13/1908:58>
One of the things that always struck me wrong is why this artefact could not have been created using other means than his suicide. How is that a super knowledgable dragon with pretty much unlimited physical and human resources could not figure out a way to create that artefact or something to that effect another way. Could he have not done a great ghost dance using voluntary subjects to create it? Yes another GGD increases the level of magic but what he did also did and created a rift.
Perhaps he lacked the inclination to sacrifice the hundreds of people it would've taken. As I understand it, Dunkelzahn is pretty heavily characterized for looking out for the little guy and really liked Metahumans.

Hell even if he was the kind of Dragon who'd pull that kind of nonsense, maybe there just wasn't any time.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <08-07-13/2038:09>
Remember that blowing himself up was NOT 'plan A'. However, the Azzies found the Nexus before he could finish other plans, so he had to go with the contingency he had prepared earlier for just this situation.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Malathis on <08-08-13/1019:15>
As far as Big D's death ritual causing a spike, I think the type of magic he used (even though it was a type of blood magic) didn't cause the same kind of mana spike that the ghost dance and azzies do. Big D had many titles that he claimed, and from what I remember about old magic is that names have power, so becoming president might have been the power he needed.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Valashar on <08-08-13/1102:12>
Not the lease among those names was his position within dragon society. At the time (and for a LONG time before) he was their Loremaster, which is basically as close to a 'leader' as they get. Title went to Lofwyr next, and then he passed it on to Celedyr, who is Loremaster at start of SR5.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <08-08-13/1417:57>
Yeah, that's something that is touched on when dealing with free spirits and alluded to in his will (and a couple other places), but Names have power. In the 4th world, Names had a lot of power, even for normal people. And note that there was a difference between a name and a Name. A name was just something you called someone. A Name was a representation of who or what they were, and was linked to their Pattern. Name and Pattern magic was a big thing in the 4th world, and something I'd like to see brought back in the 6th.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Maddoux1 on <08-08-13/1432:25>
I thought the primary purpose of his death was actually to drop the magic level in the world?  Ghost Dance brought it back prematurely, Dunklezahn ices himself (or allowed it to happen) to drop it back down, then the comet brings it back to where it should be.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Malathis on <08-09-13/1246:57>
I thought the primary purpose of his death was actually to drop the magic level in the world?  Ghost Dance brought it back prematurely, Dunklezahn ices himself (or allowed it to happen) to drop it back down, then the comet brings it back to where it should be.

The comet was a temporary spike in mana levels, not a permanant boost to them. That spike likely wasn't all that large either as some of the things that happened durring that year continue to happen (changelings), while the "spike" that Dunklezahn sacraficed himself to eliminate was a more localize rise in mana levels. The best annalogy I can come up with at the moment would  be a body of water representing mana levels, the comet raising that level a couple hundred feet over the whole thing, but then receding leaving an extra ten feet of water. While the spike that Dunklezahn wanted to eliminate would be more like a geyser shooting a small area up a couple of hundred miles.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Maddoux1 on <08-09-13/1315:05>
Hmmm, I got into SR in 4th ed, so what I got to read in history was a very abridged version.  Was it the comet that brought the changelings and windl - pixies back?
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Malathis on <08-09-13/1518:26>
The comet is when changelings started showing up, alot to start and less frequently after it passed but it does happen, I think pixies have always been around just somewhat recently been made into playable charachters, along with alot of the other variants.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: BlackMyron on <08-10-13/0006:42>
As far as I can recall, "pixies" were already around by Paranormal Animals of Europe, well before Year of the Comet.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Crimsondude on <08-10-13/0233:25>
Yes, as fae.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Wakshaani on <08-12-13/0210:49>
Hestaby's been around for a long time, just not mentioned terribly often. She's essentially the big stick that keeps the border between the Tir and the California Free State from erupting into warfare (again). She was known for being a pretty kickin' mage, even by Dragon standards, and the Shasta region that she lived in was a major power line access point. You can see her post in older books as Orange Queen (The Shasta region grows oranges, you see), where she puts her good sense of humor to work whapping Harlequin on a regular basis. After Dunk died, she stepped up as the limelight dragon, happy to talk to the media and to start doing good PR work, talking against racism, promoting the 'lesser races' and so on. There's some discussion about how much of this she really believes in and how much is a show.

Her situation got pretty bad lately when she called out Sirrurg on international television and supported his being drug before the UN for a war crimes tribunal. This, and generally flying in the face of Lofwyr, got her set against ol' Golden Snout during te recent Dragon War and, well, she lost. As punishment, she was stripped of her horde, her followers were killed (The ones that could be found, at least), and she was banished from her Shasta lair. She's probably banished from her other (known) lairs as well.

This has given rise to a running joke that she's hitchhiking through California, going to Burning Man, surfing, competing in Hackey-Sack tournaments, and so on. In non-joke time, her activities post-banishment are unknown.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: IKerensky on <08-12-13/0324:11>
Now that Lowfyr have won, I think SK will start his new line of barbecue sauce flavored shower gel.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Red Canti on <08-12-13/0527:13>
I thought he was a Ketchup man.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-15-13/0637:41>
The nasty part is that she actually helped with actions against Alamais, without which Lofwyr would likely have had taken longer fighting him, yet she got zero gratitude from him. The dragons didn't like someone who was on metahumanity's side, so they banished her despite her hard work against Alamais and the fact this move pretty much proves they (and with extension the 3(?) corps they run) consider us their enemy.

And with her gone, the clock for the Tir and CaliFree is ticking...
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <08-15-13/0757:37>
Well, out of the big 10, SK has Lofwyr, NeoNET has Celedyr, MCT has Yakuza which means Ryumyo, Wuxing has Triads which means Lung, and Aztechnology has the Smoking Mirror.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-15-13/0801:48>
And frag them all. I didn't count AzTech, by the way, because they have nothing to do with the Loremaster. SK and NeoNet, on the other hand...

Besides, the new Loremaster is the guy who managed to unleash the Sybil virus on us. Thank you very much, jerkweed!
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Wakshaani on <08-15-13/0807:34>
Allegedly. :)

Besides, it isn't as if Sybil targets *dragons*, so what does he care? :)
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <08-15-13/0810:58>
Allegedly. :)

Besides, it isn't as if Sybil targets *dragons*, so what does he care? :)
That we know of, Wak. That we know of. A Great Dragon getting taken over by Sybil would make things... interesting.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-15-13/0819:10>
If he doesn't care that he's endangering other species, that just proves he's an enemy of this world.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <08-15-13/1217:25>
Depends on what your definition of 'this world' is. If Sybil is the first step to creating metahumans that have no negative emotions, and can, perhaps, be freely controlled with a single will, then by the time the Enemy returns, you may just have an army capable of standing up to them. Maybe even standing up to the Great Hunter himself.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Malathis on <08-15-13/1235:05>
I'm not sure if you could call that meta humanity at that point though. Seems to me that with those methods and that goal, you end up destroying the thing your trying to protect.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Crimsondude on <08-15-13/1737:24>
Allegedly. :)

You learn quickly, grasshopper. :D
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <08-15-13/2204:44>
I'm not sure if you could call that meta humanity at that point though. Seems to me that with those methods and that goal, you end up destroying the thing your trying to protect.
If the thing you're trying to protect is Life in general, the World in general, and Dragons in particular, then those methods would not be so far off the mark, I think. Sure, such a plan is probably Lawful Neutral at best, but oh well.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Red Canti on <08-16-13/0345:30>
Meh. You do that to all of metahumanity and you'll have done far more damage than the Horrors ever managed to wrought.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <08-16-13/0939:24>
Perhaps. But if it eliminates the Horrors, or even just makes it so that the dragons can fight the Great Hunter on an even footing, then the dragons would likely chalk it up as 'worth it'. Especially if you can undo the process over time, once the threat is gone.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Malathis on <08-16-13/1008:47>
I agree, that would be a great stratagy from the dragon perspective, but imo it isn't protecting meta-humanity, it's protecting dragon's.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: IKerensky on <08-16-13/1110:32>
And that be bad ? ... Because ....?

Frankly, If Sybil doesn't make meta-humans taste funny I fail to see how that will bother them at all. After all, before the IE revolt meta-humanity was nothing more than slaves, food proctutors and snacks for the Dragons, some of them still alive remembering this time.

I think we will discover that the real banishment reason for Hestaby was that Dragon Etiquette is a serious matter and toying with food was seen to be rude.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Red Canti on <08-17-13/1800:59>
It's a bad idea, because it's pretty damn unlikely Metahumanity will take it lying down.

In the 4th age, the Dragons probably could've kept that rebellion down. But they're not in the 4th Age anymore. As powerful as the Greats are, they're not gonna be sitting pretty at the end of that fight. This is something that I like to think Ghostwalker, Hestaby, Dunkelzahn and Sirrurg understand.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-17-13/1829:54>
Please remember this. If we continue suspecting each other, continue pursuing our own self-interests... who do you think will be left standing in the ring in the end? There won't be anybody there, ladies and gentlemen. Not you, not me... Not even the ring itself.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: IKerensky on <08-17-13/1906:38>
They could always do it covertly... Are Dragon sensible to VITAS 1 or 2 or HMVV ? Nope, that is weird but does the other people use that as a proof thoses virus were Dragon-engeenired in order to cut the number on meta-humans ? Nope.

If a new virus or mutation happen, Dragon could probably get through. Nobody (alive) would suspect them.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <08-17-13/2142:04>
It's a bad idea, because it's pretty damn unlikely Metahumanity will take it lying down.

In the 4th age, the Dragons probably could've kept that rebellion down. But they're not in the 4th Age anymore. As powerful as the Greats are, they're not gonna be sitting pretty at the end of that fight. This is something that I like to think Ghostwalker, Hestaby, Dunkelzahn and Sirrurg understand.
Only if metahumanity knew it was happening. Dragons have major influence in 4/10 of the big 10, and enough clout and wealth that they could easily get on the board of any mega they wished (except Aztechnology). It wouldn't take much to keep metahumanity at large in the dark. Gaining control over news outlets, controlling the flow of information, etc. Remember, dragons play the long game. If they put forth all their effort to remain covert about things, it is uncertain whether even the shadows would know something was coming. Even if runners ended up dead after hitting a dragon or dragon-controlled corp site, the shadows would likely chalk it up to 'Don't mess with dragons' and be done. Of course dragons have their secrets. Everyone knows that. And they also know that learning those secrets very often proves very fatal.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: SoyCaf on <08-18-13/0142:55>
IEs and Dragons are immune to pathogens. There's why they don't ever end up sucking blood. Doesn't mean they made any one virus digital or not. Metahumans are more like little kids who don't know how to take care of themselves to most dragons. Dragons have a culture to keep their poop in a group. Same can't be said for everyone else. Blame your mages.








Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Red Canti on <08-18-13/1500:40>
It's a bad idea, because it's pretty damn unlikely Metahumanity will take it lying down.

In the 4th age, the Dragons probably could've kept that rebellion down. But they're not in the 4th Age anymore. As powerful as the Greats are, they're not gonna be sitting pretty at the end of that fight. This is something that I like to think Ghostwalker, Hestaby, Dunkelzahn and Sirrurg understand.
Only if metahumanity knew it was happening. Dragons have major influence in 4/10 of the big 10, and enough clout and wealth that they could easily get on the board of any mega they wished (except Aztechnology). It wouldn't take much to keep metahumanity at large in the dark. Gaining control over news outlets, controlling the flow of information, etc. Remember, dragons play the long game. If they put forth all their effort to remain covert about things, it is uncertain whether even the shadows would know something was coming.
To remain covert. About removing a person's ability to feel anger, pain and bitterness. In a world where people literally charge for the air you breathe.

I don't want to accuse you of being ridiculous. But you're not making it easy here. Long Game or not, this is not the kind of thing that can be kept under wraps. Especially not from the Shadows.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. But you can't fool all 700,000,000 of the people all of the time.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-18-13/1534:47>
The only reason the anti-dragon chemical won't be widely stolen and spread around, is that it tends to completely drive metahumans bonkers on contact, they go absolutely psycho. It might even be involved in Lockdown.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: IKerensky on <08-18-13/1653:57>
How long to keep something secret to 700 millions persons or the Shadows ?

Very long. How many people know of the Immortals Elfs ? Of what was really implied in Big D death ?

How many people really known about the Universal Brotherhood until the very last time ?

I have to disagree with you because history told us that it isn't really much difficult to hide something or lie to several billions people than to one person. In fact it is often easier to convince several people because conformism and group mechanism will made it difficult for doubter.

For how long did Church manage to have people convinced that Earth is flat while mathematicien and historiant knowed it was round since several century BC.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Red Canti on <08-18-13/1710:53>
Knowledge and the distribution thereof was treated differently in that era. Not like how it is in the modern days and certainly not in the Shadows.

They can fool some of the people, but not all of them. And not enough to keep the rest from doing something about it.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Nath on <08-18-13/1729:12>
For how long did Church manage to have people convinced that Earth is flat while mathematicien and historiant knowed it was round since several century BC.
I don't know, but we've been convinced that people of the Middle Ages were convinced the Earth is flat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth) for some time now.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Daen82 on <08-18-13/2035:09>
Knowledge and the distribution thereof was treated differently in that era. Not like how it is in the modern days and certainly not in the Shadows.

They can fool some of the people, but not all of them. And not enough to keep the rest from doing something about it.
In Shadowrun, things remain "somewhat" secret at best. Or so I think.

There is a certain desolation in the world, with all the oppressing, beyond-reach powers-that-be such as megacorps and dragons and violent consumerism. It leads some people to seek comfort in either knowing all tidbits of info behind the scenes (such as the average shadowlands type), while some others simply prefer to remain doped on the ignorance and plastic paradise under their best wage-slave's capabilities.

Therefore it should be extremely hard to keep anything an absolute secret for too long; but incredibly easy to manipulate people into resignation or just coping with whatever it is, by said powers that be.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: IKerensky on <08-19-13/0947:36>
If we consider that the vast majority of Earth 2075 population is either : un-educated or educated by corporated run university since 50 years I think that there is a lot of things that are prone to believe that the tiny part of the population living in the Shadows and thinking for themselfs would know.

Look at recent history, WWII era by example. China teach a very different story than the rest of the world and chinese population in their majority believe it. If you asked people about WW2 they will re-hearse things they learned in school and that we know now were false, especially about the german being stopped by the snow in the East, or the reality of their attemps to land in Britain. People know about Stalingrad/Uranus but the majority dont know if was a secundary operation and not the main russian offensive.

Ask an american about WWI and he will tell you they come liberate France and Britain from Germany and think they were the savior, while the situation in WWI was totally different.

How many people know what really happened during Cuba Missile Crisis ? How many people really understand how the internet work ? or what is the Internet...

You can easily hide something from billions, just give them a credible story, someone to hate and something other to really care for (feeding, surviving, sports, porn...).

Look at how the Universal Brotherhood successfully manage to quiet every attempt to reveal the truth to the masses, even when proofs or even videos footage were provided.

People WANT to believe in benevolent Grand Dragon because it is a conforting thought. Heck, they VOTE for Big D ticket afterall.

SR population is immersed in publicity, entertainment and propagand. I am convinced you can make them believe about anything... just ask Horizon.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Red Canti on <08-20-13/0635:53>
There are limits to how much bullshit you can make a given population swallow. And if you think those limits don't stop long before you get to mentally reprogramming them to not feel anger, you are on crazy pills.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: IKerensky on <08-20-13/1104:51>
And if you think that there is limit on how many bullshit you can make a community swallow I think I know someone that have a bridge to sell you. The question is not how much or what you make them swallow, it is how fast you do it, how you do it and with what budget you do it.

Politicians manage to trick their whole population into making decisions that aren't beneficial for them all the time, the only thing you had to do is to make it believable. Agro-Alimentarian, Tobbacco, Alcohol; Nuclear and a lot of other industry keep make people swallow junk without them even noticing or even caring because they know exactly how to sell their junk and how to quiet the opposition.

Simple solution for dragon to do :
  - Propagate a new virus (lets call it VITAS III).
  - Have the governement and corporation unite to come to a miracle cure and vaccination.
  - Distribute the vaccination.

Of course there is a catch : The vaccin also contain nanobot that reprogram the behaviour. Result : all the meta-humanity is quickly reprogrammed, thoses that aren't are exterminated by the virus. Thoses that are reprogrammed doesnt even notice it because : 1- everybody else alive behave like them so everything is fine, 2- Massive propaganda and Matrix/Trideo brainwashing to help the transition, 3- Vaccine is said to have side effect that make the patient droosy for a few days.

Now, not only the Dragon have re-programmed the whole meta-humanity (less the population that is prone to resist them wich die because of the virus) but population thanks them for that and see them as saviour.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <08-20-13/1520:04>
Your problem, Canti, is that you're thinking in a scale of months or years. The plots of dragons can unfold over generations of metahumans. Sure, you won't get people to accept something truly horrible all at once. But then, the Shadowrun world didn't get to the level of nasty its at now all at once, either. What do you think a campaign of subversion and propaganda lasting a hundred years, kept unified by being under the same leadership all that time, with the wealth and power dragons possess (including the largest megacorp in the world) would be able to convince people of? And at the same time, what if you slip the building blocks of your reprogramming into the soy food plants, so that they build up in the body over time. Maybe they don't even have any noticeable effects on the current generation, but their kids have been altered on the genetic level, made to be more pliable to draconic commands. You don't make use of it, beyond a test case or two, so it doesn't get out that things are changing. Anyone who sees the genetic drift can be 'convinced' that it was due to poor living conditions, poor nutrition, etc. Three, four generations in, you've got yourself an army just waiting for the switch to be thrown.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Red Canti on <08-20-13/1549:44>
My problem, Mirikon is that I surround myself with defeatists, cowards and bootlickers and try to convince them that people typically have the ability to observe things and the backbone to do something about them.

You are not going to fluoridate humanity into being brainless stormtroopers without people noticing and you're certainly not going to prevent them for doing something about it. It only takes one crack, and you're at risk for 700,000,000 every single day for the next year, decade, century, millennium.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <08-20-13/1609:59>
Really? Even today, people are well on their way to being easily controlled. The secret is to do it by degrees, so that people never notice the change. And if you can make anyone who might start crying foul into part of the Tin Foil Hat Brigade, then how easily will they get people to resist you? As far as brainwashing goes, you see it in plenty of places on a national/regional scale. To use a simple example from the US, I give you the Tea Party. But because there is no leader in charge, no one directing the narrative, you lose steam, and much of its power is wasted. Likewise, because the people in charge are only looking to two years from now at most, the lack of a long game hampers them. Dragons would not have either of those problems. And they have wealth and power to push aside many of those who would oppose them, or to marginalize them and make them into convenient pawns to further drive people into their net. This is, afterall, the methodology they described in Conspiracy Theories, you know?

Furthermore, you don't run it as one big organization (SK pushes something, Neo-NET and Aztechnology will resist on principle). No, you go through multiple shells and fronts, using dupes who may not even know that they are being controlled. In one place, you might insert someone in a Mothers of Metahumans clinic. In another, you might infiltrate Alamos 20K. You may use a number of A and AA corps (or even unrated local corps) to hide the trails. Lofwyr, for one, has already shown he can do this with the best of them. Dunkelzhan was a master as well. For the common man, it doesn't matter who actually calls the shots, they recognize the name on the door, and often don't even bother to look at who is behind it.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Red Canti on <08-20-13/1611:59>
And if you think that there is limit on how many bullshit you can make a community swallow I think I know someone that have a bridge to sell you. The question is not how much or what you make them swallow, it is how fast you do it, how you do it and with what budget you do it.

Politicians manage to trick their whole population into making decisions that aren't beneficial for them all the time, the only thing you had to do is to make it believable. Agro-Alimentarian, Tobbacco, Alcohol; Nuclear and a lot of other industry keep make people swallow junk without them even noticing or even caring because they know exactly how to sell their junk and how to quiet the opposition.
Liquor and Tobacco doesn't completely strip an entire set of emotions away from you.
I think you are ALL making hilarious efforts to downplay how disturbed and outraged you would be if you found out someone was attempting to do this to you.

Quote
Simple solution for dragon to do :
  - Propagate a new virus (lets call it VITAS III).
  - Have the governement and corporation unite to come to a miracle cure and vaccination.
  - Distribute the vaccination.

Of course there is a catch : The vaccin also contain nanobot that reprogram the behaviour. Result : all the meta-humanity is quickly reprogrammed, thoses that aren't are exterminated by the virus. Thoses that are reprogrammed doesnt even notice it because : 1- everybody else alive behave like them so everything is fine, 2- Massive propaganda and Matrix/Trideo brainwashing to help the transition, 3- Vaccine is said to have side effect that make the patient droosy for a few days.

Now, not only the Dragon have re-programmed the whole meta-humanity (less the population that is prone to resist them wich die because of the virus) but population thanks them for that and see them as saviour.
I think that was a strategy Sun Tzu talked about in Art of War. I have to admit it's very effective, especially as there aren't any members of humanity who could notice that there are machines being put into people's bodies.

Oh right. Except that entire branch of Metahumanity that can do that, AND tell the little fuckers to self terminate. Or worse, alter the programming. Suddenly, they're not answering to Dragons. But to someone who's going to be remembered as the scariest Technomancer in the Sixth World.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Red Canti on <08-20-13/1628:43>
Really?
Really.  :D
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: IKerensky on <08-20-13/1856:21>
Yes, technomancer are so well considered in SR that any warning from them will totally be believed by the masses.

"Dont take the cure, there is nanite in it I swear!"

As another poster pointed out the Dragon could wait to activate the programming, or they could first launch a witch hunt against technomancers and AI.

Even better, dont use a virus, use a nano-virus that shutdown brain fonction resulting in quick but painfull death, pretend that the virus is a doing from Deus and that technomancers helped him develop, propage and control it. Have one or two dragon die from it, play victims, use righteous rage to launch the pitchfork mob.

Technomancers are rare and they are no Gods of the matrix. You can bet that the decking team and material the dragons would use to control the nanites would fry anyone stupid enough to show.

Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Wakshaani on <08-20-13/1901:24>
Well, Dunk's Will *did* have some kind of injection concept in it that he wanted everyone to take, so who knows?

Of course, every pursedog used to be a Wolf, way back in the bloodline, and Dachshunds used to have real legs. Selective breeding's a Thing, and it wouldn't surprise me to see dragons possibly breeding their stock to create something more in line with their desires.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2711/4275973029_04bdb4bb5c_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Red Canti on <08-20-13/2205:58>
Yes, technomancer are so well considered in SR that any warning from them will totally be believed by the masses.

"Dont take the cure, there is nanite in it I swear!"

As another poster pointed out the Dragon could wait to activate the programming, or they could first launch a witch hunt against technomancers and AI.
For one thing, I made no mention of said Technomancer coming out as one. I didn't even try to mention to talk about warning people, as you maniacs are convinced that the Greats could tell the world 2+2=5 and be believed by the general populace.

Secondly, the type of people who ARE willing to believe said Technomancer about it, especially in the face of overwhelming evidence, are the kind of people who can distribute that sort of information really goddamned quickly. I mean. Shit. You know how these Days Fark.Com gets the news before news shows? Just think of that, except Fark.com can briefly take over the transmissions to bring in the news.

Quote
Even better, dont use a virus, use a nano-virus that shutdown brain fonction resulting in quick but painfull death, pretend that the virus is a doing from Deus and that technomancers helped him develop, propage and control it. Have one or two dragon die from it, play victims, use righteous rage to launch the pitchfork mob.
This of course, rouses the suspicions of nobody at all. Everybody unanimously takes up the pitchforks. The AI and Matrix concerned companies make no move to stop it. Nor the Technomancers that work within the system, such as in GOD.

Because we're talking about something that hypothetically the Great Dragons would be doing, and when we do Humanity becomes inexplicably incapable of critical thinking and basic observation.

Quote
Technomancers are rare and they are no Gods of the matrix. You can bet that the decking team and material the dragons would use to control the nanites would fry anyone stupid enough to show.
Yes. You can also bet they had some pretty damned good security in MCT and Renraku. But the word still got out.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Magnaric on <08-21-13/1044:17>
I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. The thing to remember here is that as gamers we are all reading the Jackpointer articles and splat books and such, so we have the collective knowledge of all the informed, enlightened, conspiracy theorists, etc. However, the average citizen of a country in the world of Shadowrun doesn't have access to that, and is largely oblivious of the actual behind-closed-doors deals and meetings of the people in power.

Oh sure, they may suspect that the powers that be are up to something, but that's hardly concrete evidence. Heck, they might even basically "know" that the megacorp CEOs and elected leaders are all greedy, selfish individuals that either buy other people or are bought themselves. But without the evidence shoved in their faces, the greater majority of people simply won't do anything about it. They'll bitch and gripe about the terrible things going on in the world, the trids they see and the articles they read depicting terrible events, and then they'll realize their coffee break is over and they'll happily put it out of their minds and wander back to their cubicles and go back to work, all the while happy that they live in such a developed, first-rate country where they have a job and college fund and relative peace and security.

And on that note, the other thing you have to remember is that almost ALL citizens of the world(not talking about the SINless, but even then they're far from universally aware) are spoon-fed propaganda and heavily-filtered and censored news from whatever federal or corporate government they happen to belong to. Look at Horizon. They are MASTERS of social engineering, and only very recently did their system of making faithful employees 100% loyal start to show any cracks. The great dragons are on par, if not well beyond the level of corporate CEOs(and in Lofwyr's case, he IS one) as far as far-reaching schemes and plans and machinations and webs of intrigue go. So if a megacorp can hide the truth from people, it shouldn't be very hard for a Great Dragon to do so, at least from the majority.

So yes, some people will always be aware of, suspect, theorize, and even work against the plans of the powers that be, but they are in the minority, and they are almost always required to do so in secret, covert ways, because people in power like to keep that power, and the easiest way to do that is to make the guy calling you out look like a raving lunatic. The media and political parties today already do that very effectively. SO without direct, in-your-face, they're-trying-to-kill-us evidence, most regular people won't do much. It's just easier and less trouble to keep your head down and ignore the little cracks in the facade around you, especially when you like the facade.

Oh, and as a last note, I really hope you weren't referring to your fellow posters/forum-users/debaters as "defeatists, cowards and bootlickers". Not exactly a spectacular way to try and win people over to your way of thinking.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Checkmate on <09-20-13/0309:35>
While I would be inclined to agree that the majority of the Sixth World is depressingly gullible/ follow the carrot esque, there are portions that are not at all that way. The Shadows and the The Corps are very aware of what is going on. Other powerful people like Laughing Man and Ehran also have an interest in humanity winning out over the dragons.

However, the concept of the dragons distributing a nanovirus capable of brainwashing humans is ridiculous. That would require significantly advanced coding and technology. I suppose Celedyr or Lofwyr might be able to accomplish this via their corps but that seems unlikely. The concept of a virus like that being distributed on a mass scale is utter insanity. I don't know how many of you have read the nanotech chapter of Augmentation, but that drek ain't cheap. Distributing it to several thousand metahumans(let alone millions or billions) simply wouldn't be economically possible. However if it were distributed to the right people...

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Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <09-20-13/1438:57>
Well, Checkmate, for the sake of argument, I'll point out that Celedyr and Lofwyr could likely code the nanovirus by themselves. After all, each of them is more intelligent than three or four geniuses put together. And Celedyr has spent the better part of the Sixth World diving the Matrix for fun and profit. If anyone could code a nanovirus, it would be him. As for expense, you're talking about beings that keep solid blocks of orichalcum in their sock drawer, own megacorps outright, and otherwise have hoards that could dwarf the wealth of small countries with ease. As for distribution, that's the easy part. Especially if you're going for the long game. You don't have to distribute it globally in a hurry. Just let it trickle out, and spread 'naturally'. Dragons think in the long term. A plan spanning fifty years is certainly something they'd pursue, especially if the reward was great enough.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Michael Chandra on <09-20-13/1449:55>
The two Redmond Dragons are worth what, at least 250 billion combined? And that's just the small names.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Checkmate on <09-20-13/1502:01>
I'll defer to you on the coding bit. I'm not tremendously famailiar with Celedyr so I'm not justified to speak on that. As to the cost of the nanites I'll pull in a little math. Assuming those nanites cost about the average of what nanites cost(which seems unlikely)  ~¥2700 x rating. Assuming an average rating of 3(again seems unlikely but for arguments sake) that means the nanites to infect a single person would cost ~ ¥8,100. Now, that means the cost to infect 1,000,000 metahumans is  ¥8,100,000,000 or just over 8 billion nuyen. I'm assuming SR has a population in the high single or low double digit billions, but if we use earth's present population ~7 billion as the example infecting all of them would cost 56,700,000,000,000,000 or 56.7 Quintillion nuyen to infect the entire population of present day earth (Which I'm assuming is much smaller than SR's population). I'm not aware of SR's GDP but that is a ludicrous amount of money. Moving right past the part where it's unlikely all of the GD's combined have that much wealth even infecting the million metahumans (at 8 billion credits) is likely to raise red flags(as in Hey...why is neonet suddenly funneling Billions into a nanite research program that seems to be going nowhere...) and if you're looking at the bigger number the actual price would be significantly higher(and most likely so would the 8 Billion nuyen number) as the laws of supply and demand on the material needed to make nanites take effect. Not only that there may quite simply not be enough materials to produce that many nanites. And that's just the cost of the nanovirus itself let alone the money needed to distribute it(However that may be performed.)

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Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <09-20-13/1515:37>
Yes, but you've got a few points wrong. Namely, you forgot to ask whether the nanites are capable of making copies of themselves given appropriate materials. This is essential if you're trying to go for a viral propagation. Allow the nanites to build more of themselves out of, say, dead skin cells, slip it in with a 'beauty treatment', and then anyone who touches the 'infectee' becomes infected, and so on. But I agree that nanites aren't the way the dragons would likely go, or rather, they wouldn't use that method alone. Combined with other methods, however...
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Checkmate on <09-20-13/1611:53>
I didnt get those points wrong I just have enough of a personal obsession with nanites to know that's not possible. Sadly the materials in a human body are not sufficient to allow self replicating nanites without supplements. Then again we're talking about whether or not dragons are using nanites to infect metahumanity so what do I know. My short version is: No, I don't think it's the dragons doing this (Or if it is it's not their goal to spawn some sort of world spanning pandemic).

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Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <09-20-13/1630:13>
I didnt get those points wrong I just have enough of a personal obsession with nanites to know that's not possible. Sadly the materials in a human body are not sufficient to allow self replicating nanites without supplements. Then again we're talking about whether or not dragons are using nanites to infect metahumanity so what do I know. My short version is: No, I don't think it's the dragons doing this (Or if it is it's not their goal to spawn some sort of world spanning pandemic).

-]|[-
Yes. Supplements. And can you tell me what exactly is in all those soyburgers and other mass-produced concoctions?
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Checkmate on <09-20-13/1632:08>
For ¥3? Soy.

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Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <09-20-13/1643:23>
You're still not seeing it, Checkmate. Those soy-products all have a taste, yeah? All have flavorings, right? Can you tell me what the flavorings are made of? Or if the 'soy' doesn't have a little something extra to 'enrich' it at the plant? Or perhaps a bit of 'filler' to keep the costs down? See where I'm going with this? Introduce the 'supplements' in small amounts through the food supply. Everyone knows the stuffers aren't great for you, but they beat an empty belly, so no one cares. There's already RFIDs in the packaging (and often in the food itself). RFIDs that could also be broken down as raw materials... All you would need to do is get the necessary materials in the design process, and then the corporations will take care of producing and distributing them for you. And how many shadowruns involve 'enhancing' plans on a corporate server?

If you're looking at things in a linear fashion, it would seem to be impossible. But the plans of dragons aren't limited to Euclidean shapes.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: SpyroD on <09-20-13/1706:06>
Yeah but why? Selling an antidote? If that is going to happens will be an open war and someone (like Atzlan) will take the heed of it, not the best thing to do. Or even if that don't happens, Dragons (expecially Celedyr) know better in how many way they could be sidescrewed with applying a nanovirus around, and that without calling the Sybil names (or the one that hit Sirrug)
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Checkmate on <09-20-13/1733:58>
I see the point you're trying to make, but there are better ways of going about it. The method you're suggesting would be stupidly expensive, and frankly is a bit ridiculous. I mean first their injecting everyone with nanites now they're slipping nanosupplements into our food... Sorry bro you passed the point of reason suspicion a while back.

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Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Sendaz on <09-20-13/1811:35>
7 out of 10 nanites surveyed* prefer McHugh's NanoSupplements to Stuffer's NanoSupplements.




* 15,463,784,456,897,891 nanites surveyed in 2068
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Michael Chandra on <09-20-13/1919:47>
All in favor of having Mirikon's username changed into Plan 9?
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <09-20-13/1941:17>
Heh. I just read a lot of sci-fi, and come from a family of arguers.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Silence on <09-20-13/1942:09>
Or is he the writer for Plan 9?*looks askance at Mirikon*
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-20-13/2038:06>
No, he's not.

On the other hand, Checkmate, I think you misunderstand half the points that Mirikon is making.  (Not that I agree with him, but then I saw Deus's escape plans from the moment I finished the Arcology Shutdown book ...)  They wouldn't be loading 'nanite boosters' into soy flavorings; the nanites would be able to use the artificial products already present.  If you're a sculptor who works in steel, you don't call up some blast furnace in Pittsburgh to have a bunch of blocks of steel made for you; you go down to the junk yard or the Home Depot, sort through what metal they've got, and find your stuff there - and y'know, it works.

... but again, everyone's got this whole thing about 'spreading across the world' going on, but they really, really aren't paying any attention to the similarities involved - or the restrictions on them ...
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Checkmate on <09-20-13/2158:28>
Well... that was enigmatic...

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Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: SpyroD on <09-21-13/0129:17>
and then "Cui Prodest?"  the hired assassin asked himself after completing his run (or before it)
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <09-21-13/0818:09>
Exactly, Wyrm. Though I still have to say that if I were a bunch of dragons trying to make the young races into obedient cattle, I would go with a combo of genetic manipulation, information control, and propoganda. None of the flashy stuff, mind you. More subtle methods. Afterall, most metahumans can't track a plan that lasts more than a year or so, but for a plan spanning decades, perhaps even a century, then many minor changes can add up to major changes over time, and no one would notice until it is too late. Essentially the genetic equivalent of what Lex Luthor did in one of the Superman movies, taking that fraction of a penny from every financial transaction run over the computers, and shunting it into a bank account. Oh sure, a fraction of a penny isn't much, but when you start to add it up over time...

Remember, dragons play the long game. Not just a few weeks or months. They can spend years, decades even, on revenge, as they just showed, and their plans can stretch even further.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-21-13/2340:14>
Well... that was enigmatic...
Not as much as you'd think.  I gave my view on the 'Sybil virus' early on in that thread; it hasn't changed, primarily because the roots of the situation haven't.  But I'm not one to keep blathering.

... well, I am, but ...
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Checkmate on <09-22-13/0355:10>
I'm not arguing that the Dragons arent the cause of the Sybil virus. I'm arguing specifically that the method Mirikon listed (Spread via nanite innoculations[or self replication, whatever]) is not feasible. I'm not denying the existance of the Sybil virus or it's effects. I don't know what it is or how it's spread but I absolutely do not think that's how.

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Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: SpyroD on <09-22-13/0514:34>
All that arguing about Sybil virus and Dragons involved in it made me wonder about that Dunkelzahn bequest...
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Angelone on <09-22-13/1803:38>
All that arguing about Sybil virus and Dragons involved in it made me wonder about that Dunkelzahn bequest...

Immortality serum, was destroyed in the Forever Drug and the creator was killed, by Loffy.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-22-13/2322:29>
I'm arguing specifically that the method Mirikon listed (Spread via nanite innoculations[or self replication, whatever]) is not feasible.

I'd love to debate this, in part because I believe it is possible, but I think it'd belong in its own thread.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Checkmate on <09-23-13/0238:05>
Don't bother. You'd never convince me.

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Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-23-13/1833:36>
Which puts you pretty permanently into the player camp, alas.  The GM mindset requires a lot more flexibility.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <09-23-13/1854:26>
Which puts you pretty permanently into the player camp, alas.  The GM mindset requires a lot more flexibility.
Ideas require the freedom of imagination. A rigid mind cannot create.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Black on <09-23-13/1918:13>
While I Mirikon hasn't convinced me that Dragons are behind this... the logic behind the argument is sound.  Dragons could be the instigators of the nanotech virus for a wide range of reasons.  Heck, if we have a mad e-ghost dragon out there, anything could be possible.  They run megacorps and are, at least stat wise, fricken geniuses at a level humans can never reach.

Still, my instinct says that this time round its not Dragons.  The scaled ancients have had enough time in the spot light for the moment and they need a short break, its time to either bring back a popular older enemy or create a new threat.  Thats not in-unverse logic, thats fanboy logic.

... that said, I do like the idea of an insane e-ghost dragon!

You know, it could be the bugs.  Ares tech combined with the need to make the flesh herds all placid and less nukey.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <09-24-13/0008:37>
Indeed. Personally, I think dragons would go with genetic manipulation rather than nanotech. But I agree that in the case of Sybll, it is something else. Personally, I hope it is 'inhabitation sprites'.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Crimsondude on <09-24-13/0029:40>
Heh. Jason has been quite receptive to my ideas barring maybe three. This was one. You wouldn't believe what I wanted to do with it. Just for comparison's sake one of the others was to kill a seriously major NPC and make the fallout from Dunk's will look like a Saturday afternoon tea party.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <09-24-13/0035:25>
Heh. Jason has been quite receptive to my ideas barring maybe three. This was one. You wouldn't believe what I wanted to do with it. Just for comparison's sake one of the others was to kill a seriously major NPC and make the fallout from Dunk's will look like a Saturday afternoon tea party.
Ooh. Well, there's only a few people who could have that kind of impact with their deaths. Pretty much limited to one of the great dragons, immortal elves, or a megacorp CEO. If this is one of the ideas that was rejected, can you at least tell us the name of the NPC?
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Crimsondude on <09-24-13/0131:41>
Nah. Only because I think I can wear him down eventually—"Eventually" being anytime within the next 5 years.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <09-24-13/0155:37>
Perfectly understandable, then. I hope it is either Damien Knight or Alachia.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on <09-24-13/0805:00>
That or....y'know...a very nasty AI that redistributed itself through Lab Subjects from Renraku some years ago
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Mirikon on <09-24-13/0838:00>
That or....y'know...a very nasty AI that redistributed itself through Lab Subjects from Renraku some years ago
No, I want him to be alive, and stay that way. I still say that he survived the Crash somehow, and rebranded himself as Pulsar.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Malathis on <09-24-13/1015:29>
That or....y'know...a very nasty AI that redistributed itself through Lab Subjects from Renraku some years ago
No, I want him to be alive, and stay that way. I still say that he survived the Crash somehow, and rebranded himself as Pulsar.

I'm with you on the surviving the crash thing, but I think the old AI's are something much much more.

Though I do think it is AI related, if memory serves right the facility that 'Jack broke into and was infected from had numerous AI, e-ghost, etc. Similar to the way Deus wanted freedom these AI's want to be free, so they are creating a way for them to have bodies and be recognized.

So when the splat book that gives rules for creating AI PC's drops you will have an option to (or maybe default), have a human body as a home node, or what ever the 5E equivalant is.

With the way dragons think, I wouldn't be suprised if you could link some of these events to Big D's will, (I know my fanboy is showing).
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Wakshaani on <09-24-13/1224:03>
*twitch*

Me? What? No, just over here, sitting with Crimsondude. Don't mind me. La la la.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Angelone on <09-24-13/1437:44>
I think Dues is behind the upswing of dissonant technomancers.

It's doubtful dragons are behind the Sybil virus, you know other than C starting the whole damn thing by keeping the e-whatevers locked up. 
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on <09-24-13/1438:57>
and somewhere within the Plane of information, Deus is Laughing....
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Angelone on <09-24-13/1444:56>
With us or at us?
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on <09-24-13/1504:15>
At us. Trust me.    >:(
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Crimsondude on <09-24-13/1518:26>
With the way dragons think, I wouldn't be suprised if you could link some of these events to Big D's will, (I know my fanboy is showing).

RA:S had an adventure linking his will to Deus. Room 1835 was a trapdoor access point into its UV Host.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: SpyroD on <09-24-13/1742:05>
At us. Trust me.    >:(

Oh pfew! For a moment I though he's laughing ON us
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Checkmate on <09-24-13/1752:05>
Which puts you pretty permanently into the player camp, alas.  The GM mindset requires a lot more flexibility.
First of all, Ouch. Let's keep things civil please.
Secondly, I have and do GM sucessfully. However I require slightly more realism in my plot than a nonsensical nano-virus that would require in excess of 19 figures to deploy on the scale you're listing. As I said, I'm not saying that is isn't the dragons nor that it isn't a nano-virus. I'm simply noting that if it is then total global infection is not their endgame.

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Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-24-13/2229:45>
Which puts you pretty permanently into the player camp, alas.  The GM mindset requires a lot more flexibility.
First of all, Ouch. Let's keep things civil please.
That was perfectly civil.  Any alienation felt is solely from you, to yourself.

Secondly, I have and do GM sucessfully. However I require slightly more realism in my plot than a nonsensical nano-virus that would require in excess of 19 figures to deploy on the scale you're listing. As I said, I'm not saying that is isn't the dragons nor that it isn't a nano-virus. I'm simply noting that if it is then total global infection is not their endgame.

My apologies - yes, one can GM successfully with the mindset you have.  What you seem to be doing is refusing to listen to any sort of explanation as to How X Can Occur - and you playing a game with dragons, magic, semi-common AI, direct brain-computer interfaces, revealed truth, etc.  My suggestion as to how this could occur (please note that I find the thought that it's the dragons, even only Celedyr and/or Eliohann, excruciatingly laughable) hinges on what is both possible and likely, given the state of Shadowrun.  Your 19-figure monetary requirement (1,234,567,890,123,456,789 - a quintillion nuyen or more, I guess) is as unrealistic as a deployment on the scale you're presuming is being talked about.

What I would suggest, should someone decide that the dragons are pursing this in their campaign, is a set of simple requirements:
Given this list - none of which is beyond realistic, or even unlikely, given the level of nanotechnology we've seen in SR - then it's less a matter of loading food products with nano-ready build materials and less a matter of finding a scientist clever enough to utilize what's already there.

So yeah, flexibility.  And the willingness to take a wonky idea and figure out how it could be possible.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: Checkmate on <09-24-13/2322:30>
Enough. This argument is essentially circular. To prevent further escalation let us simply say that you have your opinion and I have mine. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.

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Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: BetaCAV on <09-28-13/0012:57>

Secondly, I have and do GM sucessfully. However I require slightly more realism in my plot than a nonsensical nano-virus that would require in excess of 19 figures to deploy on the scale you're listing. As I said, I'm not saying that is isn't the dragons nor that it isn't a nano-virus. I'm simply noting that if it is then total global infection is not their endgame.

Alternatively, it could be more localized, in an attempt to make sure that when Horrors show up, that they do so "mostly over there", rather than uniformly distributed everywhere. Yes, I know Horrors are technically off the table due to licensing (pity the Immortal Elves never thought of that -- or did they?). Dragons should know better, but most may just not care all that much, as long as it works for a while.

There's a potentially even more plausible explanation available; were it coming from a former blood elf, it could be a nanotech alternative to the Ritual of Thorns. Stupid, but potentially effective, and someone forcing it on the unsuspecting world despite the readily apparent side effects would probably become the target for so many runs you'd have to take a number on the way in.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: SpyroD on <09-28-13/0344:44>

There's a potentially even more plausible explanation available; were it coming from a former blood elf, it could be a nanotech alternative to the Ritual of Thorns. Stupid, but potentially effective, and someone forcing it on the unsuspecting world despite the readily apparent side effects would probably become the target for so many runs you'd have to take a number on the way in.

Well that kind of action is one of the best way to disseminate something in SR world, do something "interesting", quietly hype it in the right canals and in the right ears without much fuss and all of sudden shadowrun teams and Elite SecOps pops everywhere trying to steal and copy it.
Title: Re: Dunkelzahn and Hestaby
Post by: BetaCAV on <09-28-13/0353:02>

There's a potentially even more plausible explanation available; were it coming from a former blood elf, it could be a nanotech alternative to the Ritual of Thorns. Stupid, but potentially effective, and someone forcing it on the unsuspecting world despite the readily apparent side effects would probably become the target for so many runs you'd have to take a number on the way in.

Well that kind of action is one of the best way to disseminate something in SR world, do something "interesting", quietly hype them in the right canals and in the right ears without much fuss and all of sudden shadowrun team and Elite SecOps pops everywhere trying to steal and copy it.

Or a CZ, like in Chicago? *whistles innocently*

Not sure how to tie it into the dragons, though. Sorry for the tangent.