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[SR5] Viability of Cyberlimbs and Cyber Implant Weapons

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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #15 on: <06-30-16/1556:58> »
Lets use an example, say we have a cyberarm that can dead-lift 100 lbs. Why would it be less expensive for a strong person to buy this arm than a weak person?

If the system used more complex rules for separating operating costs versus the cost of the device, then I could see an argument for it costing more for the weak person to better adjust to the over-powered arm. But as the rules stand, the actual arm shouldn't have different prices for different bodies.

MijRai

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« Reply #16 on: <06-30-16/1715:50> »
Well, off the top of my head, a stronger person doesn't need extra reinforcement and other things added to make sure they can use it adequately, while the weaker person might require it.  Not saying it is accurate or not, just that it is one explanation. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Novocrane

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« Reply #17 on: <06-30-16/2031:55> »
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Why would it be less expensive for a strong person to buy this arm than a weak person?
(Hypothetically) Let's add the situation of an elf and troll. I'd say there are a range of unenhanced, uncustomised arms available, and though cost is no different, the two metatypes do not purchase the same model of arm by default.
A strong person and a weak person would be in a similar, though less pronounced, situation.

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #18 on: <07-02-16/0239:49> »
Well, off the top of my head, a stronger person doesn't need extra reinforcement and other things added to make sure they can use it adequately, while the weaker person might require it.  Not saying it is accurate or not, just that it is one explanation.

The suggestion that a weaker person would need extra reinforcement to be able to use an implant arm sort of suggests that if you aren't careful that sucker could rip itself off or something like that... It would also potentially require extra implantation (cost more essence) which is also not supported by the rules. Like I mentioned before, if there were more in depth rules for post-implant rehab or something similar, I would totally support the idea that it takes longer to get used to a new cyberlimb that has different attributes from your natural attribute. And if I were running a game where a player opted to get a new arm installed, I might actually impose a "learning curve" to using an arm that is unbalanced compared to the norm.

I would also like to point out that in 4th edition (if I'm recalling correctly) they actually had it set up such that if you tried to use Cyberlimb Strength/Agility enhancements that were too strong (higher than 2) you had to have a Cybertorso. Now, that rule was only for the Enhancements, the ones that take up capacity, but it was an interesting concept.

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Why would it be less expensive for a strong person to buy this arm than a weak person?
(Hypothetically) Let's add the situation of an elf and troll. I'd say there are a range of unenhanced, uncustomised arms available, and though cost is no different, the two metatypes do not purchase the same model of arm by default.
A strong person and a weak person would be in a similar, though less pronounced, situation.

My concept of the cost variation for customizing the cyberlimbs is that it needs better materials, more servos and so forth to improve the overall strength/agility of the limb. Now, I work off of the assumption that these customized limbs have built in limits and are customized to the frame of the recipient, which is why they are limited to the natural limit for the character's metatype. This builds in by default the limit that the limb can't do something more than the character's body is capable of supporting. An arm attached to an elf is capable of attaining an AGI of 7, ergo the body can have the arm flinging around at "Agility 7 speed" without causing undue harm. In these cases, the customization of the cyberlimb has sort of just shortcut-ted the attribute raising process, but for that limb only.

Remember, an unenhanced, uncustomized arm has a STR 3, AGI 3. So by default those two metatypes in Novocrane's hypothetical are getting a very different "deal" if they are looking to go with just a basic arm. Some say that the cost of the customization should be based on the metatype, so Trolls only have to pay for customization levels from some other value for Trolls to start at. Personally, this doesn't seem to follow the logic for me, because you're still paying for a stronger arm, right? Lets use a slightly different hypothetical situation:

Now, say we have two candidates looking to buy cyberlimbs that match their actual attributes. We have a Human with above average attributes, Agility 5, Strength 5. And we have a Troll that is at the top of his game in... table tennis, also Agility 5 Strength 5. Now, these two candidates by all accounts are looking at purchasing the same arm, the rules don't have any alterations to purchasing gear based on metatype, so the troll doesn't have to pay extra for his arm just because he is a big not so burly troll. Again, the game tries to simplify the rules for Metatype, so there are no further changes to these limbs based on that aspect. Both of our implant-ees pay the same amount because they are getting the same product. Seems fair.


Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #19 on: <07-02-16/1150:05> »
I would also like to point out that in 4th edition (if I'm recalling correctly) they actually had it set up such that if you tried to use Cyberlimb Strength/Agility enhancements that were too strong (higher than 2) you had to have a Cybertorso. Now, that rule was only for the Enhancements, the ones that take up capacity, but it was an interesting concept.
That was only for Standard, not Customized limbs. From SR4A page 343:
"On standard cyberlimbs, a cybertorso is required to have cyberlimb enhancements with a rating higher than 3."

Keep in mind that in 4th Edition, enhancements went as high as Rating 7 whereas in SR5 they only go to Rating 3. Customized limbs could go up to "the character's natural attribute maximum)", with each attribute point raised above 3 increasing the availability by 1 and cost by 1,500¥, quite a lot less expensive than the 5,000¥ per rating of SR5. A human has a limit in both editions of 9; in 4th this was due to the maximum augmented attribute value being 6 * 1.5 as per page 68 (which could be achieved with a standard limb with 6 rating points worth of enhancements), in 5th this is due to the max customized attribute of a limb being 6 (i.e. racial max) and the max rating of enhancements being 3.

So really, the two editions changed the rules a little bit, but for limbs the end result is mostly the same for humans; metahumans, trolls in particular, are the exception, where a troll could have a strength 15 cyberlimb in SR4 but "only" a strength 13 cyberlimb in SR5. And, as pointed out above, the customized limbs got a lot more expensive in SR5. A Troll arm with STR 10 would cost 15,000¥ base + either 1500*7 for max versatility (i.e no capacity use) or 250*7 if you didn't care about capacity and didn't want to be able to further enhance it, giving a range of 16.750¥ to 25,500¥; that same limb in SR5 would cost the same base but an additional 5000*7 because enhancements went from 250¥ per Strength rating to 6,500¥, for a minimum price of 50,000¥. In other words, forget about using cyberlimbs if you're a troll focused on strength...

All of that being said, I personally like the idea of a customized cyberlimb being limited by your natural attributes. Thus, a Strength 1 Agility 1 character can only have a Strength 4 Agility 4 arm; this could be circumvented with a cyber torso as per the standard limb rules from SR4 so a STR/AGI 1 character could have a cyber torso with STR/AGI 6 and thus mount arms with STR/AGI 6 + 3 from enhancements for a total of 9. But, this gets overly complicated quickly and brings in the cost issue; in order for this to be viable the cost of limbs and torsos would have to go down, in my opinion, otherwise you're just making a system where things like muscle replacements are even more common, not less.

My biggest pet peeve about cyberlimbs is that a troll gets the same standard arm that a human does, starting out at STR/AGI 3. That's bogus, but again, would require a bottom-up rework of the limb system to make sense. The easiest house rule we've come up with is to allow limbs to affect natural limits regardless of how many limbs you've got, by averaging out the attributes used to calculate the limit. Thus, the character has one limit for using just the limb (limb attributes only), one limit for using the limb in concert with other limbs (averaged across two arms for the most part), and one limit for when the whole body is used (averaged attributes across four limbs plus torso). We've also considered giving the torso more capacity to account for the potential need for enhancements, but haven't settled on a final number (15 and 20 were topics of discussion).

TL;DR
Cyberlimbs are too expensive for what they do in SR5; dramatically lowered cost might help offset the downsides (such as no inherent limit modification) but that could still leave a lot to be desired.
« Last Edit: <07-02-16/1200:00> by Herr Brackhaus »

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #20 on: <07-03-16/0554:09> »
Personally, I don't have a problem with using Cyberlimb attributes for the purposes of calculating Limits, the text of the book only says "When a particular limb is used for a test (such as leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber)"

That can totally be read as "the attribute for that test," but it can also be thought of as any attribute involved. Your Physical limit uses Strength, which is an attribute and the limb has a different one. It takes a little extra work, but it isn't hard to calculate out the various possibilities (Just the limb, average of two limbs, whole body, careful coordination) but as a group you need to make sure you agree on how many "limbs" a human has. I usually go for 5, one each for 2 arms, 2 legs, and the base body of the recipient. Note also, that I go by the idea that a cybertorso, which is just a shell doesn't have attributes, so no matter what you do you are contending with the base flesh of the augmented person.

As I noted in my previous post comparing a high strength human with a "low" strength troll, it doesn't really seem that unreasonable for a troll to have to pay more for the higher strength. I would be open to ideas, but all of the suggestions that Trolls or Orks or whatever should just get free base Strength seems a little odd. They are getting a Stronger machine, why shouldn't it cost more to make?

Hobbes

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« Reply #21 on: <07-03-16/0722:31> »

As I noted in my previous post comparing a high strength human with a "low" strength troll, it doesn't really seem that unreasonable for a troll to have to pay more for the higher strength. I would be open to ideas, but all of the suggestions that Trolls or Orks or whatever should just get free base Strength seems a little odd. They are getting a Stronger machine, why shouldn't it cost more to make?

From a verisimilitude standpoint I think we all can see that, but from a balance standpoint it means that the value of a cyberlimb varies by Metatype. May or may not be desirable. 

Duellist_D

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« Reply #22 on: <07-07-16/0129:43> »
The current way of ruling is pretty much fine, in my opinion.
Your Metatype defines the outer shape of your Arm, not the Power of the Motors put inside.
If anything, one could argue about linking the capacity of the Arm to the metatype.

The German Rigger 5 made an interesting change, linking the capacity of Drone Cyberarms to the Body of the Drone.
This could also work for normal Cyberarms, giving "beefier" Characters more to toy with.

Requiring Cybertorsos for stronger Limbs is a horrible Idea from the point of viability.
Cyberarm Charakters are most often a strictly worse option than the alternatives, slightly less so with german rules.
Requiring the very Essence intensive Cybertorso for better stats, pushes them deep into the "useless" area, barring the "Cyberarm-of-Awesome" Riggers.
« Last Edit: <07-07-16/0134:16> by Duellist_D »

ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #23 on: <07-26-16/0225:33> »
Shadowrun is a game first, a "simulation" se- well, ok, if you're asking me, last.

As it stands cyberarms do not work in-game the way they are meant to work in-fluff.  That means either the fluff has to change (and cyberarms become the sort of things only weaklings and the desperate use rather then a staple of cyber samurais), or the mechanics have to change (cyberarms are altered so that high-stat characters have reasons to use them, and indeed, are not punished for doing so).  Either way, what you have right now simply does not work - it is a sad case of aiming for some sort of real world "realism" and not only failing to achieve it, but failing to likewise achieve in-setting realism, leaving you with mechanics that just kinda suck.

...As is so often the case with "simulationist" design.

Kuirem

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« Reply #24 on: <07-26-16/0332:16> »
Hey ProfessorCirno since you are 'upping' my post I thought I might as well give a new point of view. Since the time I made this post I created a plethora of character and notably lately through Karmagen. And I realized that the problem with Cyberlimbs is not so much from the limbs themselves (except for Torso and Skulls that are crap) but from Priority/Sum to Ten.

Those two gen methods really promote min/maxing. There is simply no point going for 3 AGI/ 2 STR + Cyberarmswhen you can go for 6/5 + Muscle Replacement. But with Karmagen? 6 AGI/5 STR is much more expensive than 3/2, it is a difference of 135 Karma, 135 Karma is 270k Nuyen, more than enough to buy fully boosted Cyberarms (even Alphaware to save on Essence) and freeing tons of Karma to reinvest into Skills or other Attributes. What is worst, an Ork charging at you from the top of his 8 AGI/9 STR or an Ork charging at you from the top of his 9 AGI/11 STR while giving a lecture on nuclear physics?

When you start playing high STR metatype it become even more interesting, an Ork/Dwarf has to pay 150 Karma to go to STR 8, add to that the high AGI and BOD needed to play a melee street sam and the karma cost quickly go through the roof. With Cyberlimbs? Not so much.

So Cyberarms build are much more viable in Karmagen than in others and not limited to the 'Decker who can shot' or the 'super cheesy 50 armor Sam'. This is not the only thing that is made viable, the infamous Aspected Magician is much better in Karmagen since he doesn't have to pay ~50 karma more than the magician just to learn Spells.

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #25 on: <07-26-16/0658:27> »
One of the biggest issues, Kuirem, is that while you may be getting some Karma efficiency when using Point Buy your cyberlimbs are still not affecting inherent limits, which means that if your natural attributes are poor, strength in particular, using those arms for anything that uses Physical Limit is going to be challenging. Sure, you can get around that by using a Katana for a melee weapon so you're using the Accuracy of the weapon instead, but there are plenty of skills that use the whole body and/or rely on limits.

So while you may have saved some Karma, you're restricted in ways that make very little sense and/or that are mechanically difficult to implement.

Kuirem

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« Reply #26 on: <07-26-16/0729:40> »
Yep that's still a problem. Thanksfully RAW says this :

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Often, rather than using their inherent limits, runners will be limited by the piece of gear they are using.

Some will say that it is all a matter of interpretation but I don't see why this sentence from the Core Rulebook (page 47) would not allow you to use Cyberlimbs attributes for your test, especially since it makes sense.

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #27 on: <07-26-16/0740:47> »
Hmm, interesting. I've never seen or heard anyone argue that Cyberlimbs is gear. That still leaves the issue of unifying gear and physical limits when using, say, two cyberarms and the rest of your natural body.

Honestly, we just houseruled this at my table to average stats for physical limit. But that's obviously not RAW.

Kuirem

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« Reply #28 on: <07-26-16/0803:56> »
Well  Cyberware is listed in the STREET GEAR chapter in the core rulebook. Can't make it clearer that it is gear to me.

Once again averaging is RAW, page 455 :

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When a particular limb is used for a test (such as leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber); in any other case, take the average value of all limbs involved in the task

So if you consider that Cyberlimbs = Gear and that they have their own limit taking the average value of all limbs should also take the average limits. Is that stretching the wording? Probably but it is for the sake of balance AND logic ;D

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #29 on: <07-26-16/0815:50> »
Absolutely. It's certainly an interesting and most importantly new argument, at least as far as I know.

Kudos!