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SR5 hot-fix errata for Mystic Adepts (what?!?!)

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ZeConster

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« Reply #15 on: <01-06-14/1302:27> »
It's not like you all actually have any real fact supporting your case either. You just have very extreme things that some saw at the convention that the new edition was introduced at and a bunch of exaggerations along those same lines.
"Fact"? I seem to recall being quite factful about why I thought Mystic Adepts shouldn't get a free Power Point when they increase their Magic - you're the ony who came up with baseless and vague remarks. Heck, I suggested pre-errata to make MAs pay extra Karma for their Magic-Increase Power Point.

OPs statement: Mystic Adepts are nearly-unplayable.
My counter-statement: Prove it, objectively, and not by providing subjective opinion. Yes, they cannot take 6 Power Points without taking a Negative Quality (or several). And?
Okay.  Let's start from a different angle.
Let's not. Unless, of course, you're admitting that your claim that they're "unplayable" post-errata is incorrect.

martinchaen

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« Reply #16 on: <01-06-14/1306:55> »
I'll freely admit that I know next to nothing about Adepts and Mystic Adepts, so I'll read through those rules right now. What are the consequences of starting with less than maximum power points?

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #17 on: <01-06-14/1308:44> »
Any rule can be abused. That is no reason to screw everyone else over just because some people can (or do) abuse it.

I'll freely admit that I know next to nothing about Adepts and Mystic Adepts, so I'll read through those rules right now. What are the consequences of starting with less than maximum power points?

The most important is that one can never access those Power Points after play begins, so they're always behind the curve.
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martinchaen

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« Reply #18 on: <01-06-14/1318:52> »
Behind the curve? They are adepts with access to spells. They're a hybrid; isn't that part of the "everything has a price" deal?

By limiting the mystic adept somehow (and the designers chose to do so by making mystic adepts pay karma for power points and making them choose power points OR metamagic at initiation just like adepts, but also restricted mystic adepts from gaining them for free when raising magic), the developers have ensured that both mages, adepts, and mystic adepts have different capabilities and thus roles. The mage is the strongest spell caster, the adept has unique abilities, and the mystic adept is a blend of both but will never be as good at either as the others. Your perception that they will end up "behind the curve" is clearly intended by the designers, not an unintended consequence.

Your claim that mystic adepts are "always behind the curve" is only true if you compare them to their counterparts, but this is an invalid comparison factually as they were never intended to be the same.

I can see your argument from an optimization point of view, but SR5 makes it very clear that everything has a price; unlike the street sam who simply cannot start with synaptic boosters R3, the mystic adept has a choice; spend karma on power points to gain abilities normally unique to the adept AND have the capacity to cast spells, and if the player wants his character to be able to live up to his fullest potential that comes with a very specific cost.

Besides 1: this argument is all over a temporary document, and we don't know for sure if the changes in the hot-patch are going to make it into the official errata.
Besides 2: you are entirely free to house rule whatever you want at your table, so what is up with the subjective insistence that the game is objectively "wrong"? The game is what it is; don't like it? Change it. It's right there in the rules. If you want to play at conventions, however, you've got to follow the official rules. Everything has a price...
« Last Edit: <01-06-14/1330:01> by martinchaen »

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #19 on: <01-06-14/1331:42> »
Your claim that mystic adepts are "always behind the curve" is only true if you compare them to their counterparts, but this is an invalid comparison factually as they were never intended to be the same.

No, it is always true because if a player chooses not to take any Negative Qualities for any other character type, they will not permanently lose out on anything, but if they do so on a Mystic Adept they will permanently lose out on one or more Power Points. The point is that taking any Negative Qualities should not be required for the Mystic Adept not to lose out because it isn't required for anything else not to.
« Last Edit: <01-06-14/1338:20> by All4BigGuns »
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martinchaen

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« Reply #20 on: <01-06-14/1338:02> »
And that is the cost of being a Mystic Adept. You're also neatly ignoring the two distinct other Mystic Adept builds that uses priority Magic B or C, who start with 4 or 3 Magic respectively; neither of these HAVE to take a negative quality to fully realize their potential.

We clearly don't agree on this, and we are still arguing opinion, so I'll just leave it at that. Have a good one.
« Last Edit: <01-06-14/1345:23> by martinchaen »

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #21 on: <01-06-14/1344:11> »
And that is the cost of being a Mystic Adept.

No, the cost of being a Mystic Adept is never gaining Astral Projection; having to spend a Power Point for Astral Perception; needing more skills due to their split focus; needing more attributes to be higher also due to their split focus and having less karma for 'tweaking' things, buying contacts, bonding foci, having bound spirits or getting a little extra cash. Despite the people whinging because the way the book had them isn't 100% perfect for their table, all that evened things out. The BS "Mage+" argument is nothing more than an attempt to create an emotional reaction in support of their position.

You're also neatly ignoring the two distinct other Mystic Adept builds that uses priority Magic B or C, who start with 4 or 3 Magic respectively; neither of these HAVE to take a negative quality to fully realize their potential.

No, I'm not ignoring anything. Those Mystic Adepts have to take Negative Qualities and spend Special Attribute Points in order to realize their full potential. The only difference between those two and A is that A doesn't have to spend the Special Attribute Points.
« Last Edit: <01-06-14/1408:22> by All4BigGuns »
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« Reply #22 on: <01-06-14/1554:42> »
I think this argument has gone beyond studying the facts of the problem and has gone more into the emotional responses to such things.  Even if the book or the errata says something, there's no reason a GM can't houserule things to be differently.  The only time that the rules interpretations even mean anything is when dealing with Missions.  Everything else is up for debate and can be argued until the cows come home.  Personally, I try to respect other people's interpreations, not change them.  I've not always been successful, but I do my best.

Personally, I felt that Mystic Adepts were potentially unbalanced with the original rules.  I had a debate with a player of mine who likes to munchkin things, and he basically built a series of Mystic Adepts that would very quickly overshadow all of the other players in a group.  He would start weaker, but it wouldn't take too long to compensate for the weaknesses.  When I mentioned Astral Projection, he said he didn't need it to be a good mage or to be a good adept.  When I asked him about his attributes, he said he was going to work on getting quickened buffs or sustaining foci for buffs.  When I mentioned the skill distribution to him, he put A in his skills.  His plan was to use special attribute points to max out Magic, and just buy spells later with Karma (they're only 5 karma, so they're pretty cheap).  He had the whole thing mapped out and it would have eventually totally eclipsed the whole game.

His munchkin behavior aside, he had a point.  Mathematically the way that Mystic Adepts were built in the original rules were pretty weak to start but would very quickly become extremely powerful, so long as one was willing to dump a lot of Karma into spells and such.  So I houseruled that the Mystic Adept would have to buy their power points at 5 Karma at start instead of 2.  He took the negative qualities, which gave his character more depth and flavor, and ultimately prevented him from becoming too munchkin.  The houserul actually broke him out of his munchkin role, and he's become a MUCH better player as a result.

I respect everyone's views on this issue, but ultimately houseruling things will solve whatever personal problems anyone has.  It helped to solve mine.
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #23 on: <01-06-14/1600:16> »
That's the whole point, it is primarily munchkins that would pose any sort of a problem with it as originally written. House ruling it if you have such an individual is fine, but insisting on a change to the system because of something that is not an automatic occurrence (especially a change that adds a requirement that no other character type in the game must deal with) is patently ridiculous.
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martinchaen

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« Reply #24 on: <01-06-14/1612:04> »
No, I'm not ignoring anything. Those Mystic Adepts have to take Negative Qualities and spend Special Attribute Points in order to realize their full potential. The only difference between those two and A is that A doesn't have to spend the Special Attribute Points.
To use your method of arguing: bullshit.

And with that, I'm out of this one too. I've already stated in the other Mystic Adept thread that the Hot Patch errata is, as you so desired, only for Missions and only for GenCon and DragonCon, so you are free to happily ignore those rules if you wish, so I have nothing more to add to this debate.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #25 on: <01-06-14/1627:09> »
No, I'm not ignoring anything. Those Mystic Adepts have to take Negative Qualities and spend Special Attribute Points in order to realize their full potential. The only difference between those two and A is that A doesn't have to spend the Special Attribute Points.
To use your method of arguing: bullshit.

Full potential (highest possible in generation without a quality) is Magic 6 with 6 Power Points. Priority B must spend two Special Attribute Points on top of the Karma to reach that and Priority C must spend 4 Special Attribute Points on top of the Karma to reach it.
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RHat

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« Reply #26 on: <01-06-14/1710:03> »
Uselessness?  I'm going to have to ask you to defend that assertion, as I find it to be baseless.  They're still quite powerful, in particular for hybrid characters where they SHOULD excel, but having to dip into negative qualities to get full power points is part of the balance.

It's quite simple really.  I can't come up with any character concept that isn't better as a mage or physad (than a Mystic Adept) when factoring in the hot-fix.  If you think they are still quite powerful, provide some character concepts that are better as a Mystic Adept.

The biggest problem is the lack of new power points.  As play continues, the Mystic Adept will fall further and further behind the mage and physad.  SR4 already established that a 50/50 split doesn't work - with the hot-fix, it's something like 75/75 at chargen but pretty close to 50/50 once play starts.

That's not hard (any time you're doing two main things in the build, especially when the two roles synergize, Mystic Adepts are ahead - the Combat Mage or the Shaman/Face are great examples), but you're trying to shift the burden of proof here.  It is your claim that they are unplayable, and it is thus your responsibility to prove it.

Being "behind the curve" against a Mage or an Adept in their specialty is how it's SUPPOSED to go; that's the cost of having more areas in which you excel.  While it might be better for Mystic Adepts to be able to get power points on Magic increases, let's not pretend for a moment that it would be at all balanced for them to be free.

Guns:  I disagree with your assertion that it is inherently wrong for a character to need to take Negative Qualities to realize their full potential - and in fact submit that no character can realize their full potential if they do not take negative qualities.  Full baseline might be a better term for what you're suggesting (though I'm not prepared to accept the premise upon which you're defining it), but even then I can't agree that it's inherently wrong for a character to need negative qualities to reach that.
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #27 on: <01-06-14/1713:54> »
The Mystic Adept under the Knee Jerk Reaction requires Negative Qualities to get their full Power Point allotment.

If the Mystic Adept does not take their full Power Point allotment in character generation, they lose access to any they do not take permanently.

No other character type is put into such a ludicrous position.
« Last Edit: <01-06-14/1716:12> by All4BigGuns »
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RHat

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« Reply #28 on: <01-06-14/1728:10> »
The Mystic Adept under the Knee Jerk Reaction requires Negative Qualities to get their full Power Point allotment.

If the Mystic Adept does not take their full Power Point allotment in character generation, they lose access to any they do not take permanently.

No other character type is put into such a ludicrous position.

Are you saying it would be just fine if the cost remained 5 Karma/PP, but you could continue to buy them after character creation up to your Magic?
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #29 on: <01-06-14/1731:37> »
The Mystic Adept under the Knee Jerk Reaction requires Negative Qualities to get their full Power Point allotment.

If the Mystic Adept does not take their full Power Point allotment in character generation, they lose access to any they do not take permanently.

No other character type is put into such a ludicrous position.

Are you saying it would be just fine if the cost remained 5 Karma/PP, but you could continue to buy them after character creation up to your Magic?

No. The 5 Karma is complete overkill (using a Nuke when a BB Gun would do, anyone?). For some tables the 2 may not be enough, but I seriously doubt that that applies to that many tables outside of those of the ones so much in favor of the Knee Jerk Reaction.
« Last Edit: <01-06-14/1734:56> by All4BigGuns »
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