[Twilight]

A question on the hot-fix errata that I just ran across...

I'm baffled by the Mystic Adept hot-fix errata.

What is the thinking on the massive nerfing of Mystic Adepts?  By making the power point cost 5 karma (instead of 2), it means you can no longer start with 6 power points (at least without eating into positive qualities).  By removing the acquisition of power points post-creation in any way except initiation (in place of taking a meta-magic), you move them solidly back into the nearly-unplayable category (like they were in previous editions).  As written in 5th, they are likely overpowered but the hot-fix moves them solidly into extremely underpowered - a mage or physad will always be a better choice.

Why not an increase to 3 or 4 karma (still allowing buying 6 pp with your 25 karma) and why not apply that to future magic increases (and if you started with fewer pp than your magic)?  Why the complete removal of power point gains post-creation (save initiation)?  I assumed the free pp for Mystic Adepts was an error (and assumed it would follow the logical route of the same karma cost as during chargen).

[RHat]

Uselessness?  I'm going to have to ask you to defend that assertion, as I find it to be baseless.  They're still quite powerful, in particular for hybrid characters where they SHOULD excel, but having to dip into negative qualities to get full power points is part of the balance.

[All4BigGuns]

It's utterly ridiculous that one has to take any Negatives to get their full Power Point allotment. It is even worse that without taking those Negative Qualities, the opportunity to get all of those initial potential Power Points is permanently lost.

[Twilight]

Uselessness?  I'm going to have to ask you to defend that assertion, as I find it to be baseless.  They're still quite powerful, in particular for hybrid characters where they SHOULD excel, but having to dip into negative qualities to get full power points is part of the balance.

It's quite simple really.  I can't come up with any character concept that isn't better as a mage or physad (than a Mystic Adept) when factoring in the hot-fix.  If you think they are still quite powerful, provide some character concepts that are better as a Mystic Adept.

The biggest problem is the lack of new power points.  As play continues, the Mystic Adept will fall further and further behind the mage and physad.  SR4 already established that a 50/50 split doesn't work - with the hot-fix, it's something like 75/75 at chargen but pretty close to 50/50 once play starts.

[Michael Chandra]

Except that after chargen, an MA can always get exactly the same character advancement as the Mage if he so desires. So he won't necessarily fall behind. Furthermore, I think 50/50 is greatly exaggerating. Perhaps you want to post example builds to support your numbers.

[Twilight]

Except that after chargen, an MA can always get exactly the same character advancement as the Mage if he so desires. So he won't necessarily fall behind. Furthermore, I think 50/50 is greatly exaggerating. Perhaps you want to post example builds to support your numbers.

But if you're going to just replicate the mage path as you gain karma then you're better off playing a mage.  The ma gets only the mage benefits of increasing magic (not even the option to gain a pp).  When initiating, the ma gets the benefit of the mage or the pa (50/50) - the only part that pushes it a little above 50/50 is that some metamagics are based on initiate grade.  However, while the ma is forced to initiate twice, the pa and mage can happily spend karma on other things.

Magic types are already huge karma sinks - the ma with extra karma to gain pp is even more so.  It doesn't need even more hamstringing.

I think it's clear there is a vast divide in people's views on what makes a balanced Mystic Adept.  My view is that the hot-fix will make the Mystic Adept unplayed (again).  I have very rarely seen an ma played in past versions of SR (and all of them were quickly dumped for new characters) and I fully expect the hot-fix to have just that effect in SR5.

[Michael Chandra]

A Mystic Adept isn't supposed to be 100/100 anyway. So I really don't see the problem in that they don't get to have their cake and eat it too.

As for them not getting played, the only reason I'm playing a Street Sam is as symbolic successor to my never-got-to-play-in-SR4 build. I can cause far more havoc with my Mystic Adept insane-dodge builds.

[All4BigGuns]

The problem lies in that no character should have to permanently give up something intrinsic to them like the Mystic Adept has to give up any possibility for a number of Power Points if the player does not take any Negative Qualities. It doesn't matter how common/uncommon/rare that event is. If even one hypothetical person out of several hundred trillion may do so, it should be feasible without them losing out.

[Twilight]

A Mystic Adept isn't supposed to be 100/100 anyway. So I really don't see the problem in that they don't get to have their cake and eat it too.

As for them not getting played, the only reason I'm playing a Street Sam is as symbolic successor to my never-got-to-play-in-SR4 build. I can cause far more havoc with my Mystic Adept insane-dodge builds.

I don't want 100/100 - I just want playable (which is where the huge variance in subjective views seems to enter the picture).  In my view, the hot-fix makes Mystic Adepts unplayable and I have yet to see any comments that convince me otherwise (though it wouldn't surprise me if there is a specific MA build that is broken even under the hot-fix).

[Michael Chandra]

I'd love to try to provide arguments to debunk your view, but it's not as if you're given me anything to work with. All you said is that in your view they're unplayable. You haven't even made clear what you think Mystic Adepts are supposed to be able to do. And besides, views are opinions. Those cannot be easily argued against. So what point would there be in this debate to begin with? It's not as if you came with cold hard facts that need to be countered, you have an opinion and the right to have one. And it's not as if we can change it.

[ZeConster]

Mystic Adepts are playable, and vastly improved over 4th edition: what evidence do you have to the contrary? Why should we waste time trying to convince someone who's just stamping their foot and not actually saying anything?

[All4BigGuns]

It's not like you all actually have any real fact supporting your case either. You just have very extreme things that some saw at the convention that the new edition was introduced at and a bunch of exaggerations along those same lines.

"Stamping their foot"? Really? That's all the "MA is broken" crowd is doing too.

[martinchaen]

Burden of proof lies on the one making a statement. In this case, the OP has failed to provide any sort of evidence of his claims. As Michael points out, it's perfectly fine to have an opinion, but it's hard to argue them... So until a claim backed by some form of evidence other than opinion is made, a debate cannot be held.

My statement: Mystic Adept characters can be created under the current Hot-Fix rules. Care to argue that particular fact, considering I make no claim as to whether or not they are "good" since that is a subjective opinion and not objective proof? No? Good...

OPs statement: Mystic Adepts are nearly-unplayable.
My counter-statement: Prove it, objectively, and not by providing subjective opinion. Yes, they cannot take 6 Power Points without taking a Negative Quality (or several). And?

[All4BigGuns]

Again, points gained from Negative Qualities are supposed to be entirely 'extra', not required to have full base resources available for character generation use. That it isn't possible to have the full 6 Power Points without taking Negatives is utterly ridiculous.

Any claim of "overpowered" is by it's very nature a subjective claim laden with personal opinion. "Overpowered" does not exist within a system itself. It only exists once one begins taking an individual table (likely their own) into account.

[Twilight]

Burden of proof lies on the one making a statement. In this case, the OP has failed to provide any sort of evidence of his claims. As Michael points out, it's perfectly fine to have an opinion, but it's hard to argue them... So until a claim backed by some form of evidence other than opinion is made, a debate cannot be held.

My statement: Mystic Adept characters can be created under the current Hot-Fix rules. Care to argue that particular fact, considering I make no claim as to whether or not they are "good" since that is a subjective opinion and not objective proof? No? Good...

OPs statement: Mystic Adepts are nearly-unplayable.
My counter-statement: Prove it, objectively, and not by providing subjective opinion. Yes, they cannot take 6 Power Points without taking a Negative Quality (or several). And?

Okay.  Let's start from a different angle.  The rules as written are the baseline.  What is the justification for the hot-fix?  I haven't seen any evidence that it was necessary (except removing the pp for free on magic increase).  The rules were released with one obvious easily fixed problem - the hot-fix seems exactly like "knee-jerk BS" to borrow All4BigGuns' phrase.