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ETA on Errata

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Reaver

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« Reply #90 on: <12-14-13/2036:51> »
Nope.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

KraakenDazs

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« Reply #91 on: <12-18-13/1227:50> »
I have mentioned this in the other thread, but ill do it again here.

I'd like to mention my post truly isn't about complaining, nor do i desire to cause ire and/or inflame anyone, on player, freelancer or CGL peeps in anyway. If anything, this post is because i like your work, and i want more of it.

I'm just wondering if an ETA on errata, or a status update, or a brief official mention of this being ''in the works'' has been disclosed as of late. I know CGL have a lot on their plate this year. A lot of product releases and schedule to maintain, and im sure they want this errata out as much as anyone. But the radio silence is a bit infuriating. I've scoured the net, the cgl main site, tried to find twitters and facebooks and whatnots, to no avail. Maybe this isn,t even the right forum for it. Perhaps people ''in the know'' won't even read it. If so, i'd like to know where i can direct this adress, to make it a productive effort rather than just a b*tch-fest :P

While SR is an awesome game, and with a distinctive style like no other in the market, and a system that is extremely complete, i have to admit the latest SR5 releases have gaping editing holes. I've yet to see a single product that doesn't contradict itself or leave blatant holes in the mechanics. And bottom-line is, you buy those books for the mechanics as well as the fluff. Especially a *core* *rule*book.

I just do not feel it justified to purchase additional products knowing the system itself is oh-so flawed and after 7 months (Again, highly validated by the fact that this game is HUGE. BUT i also have to admit i've rarely seen a game that needed that much editing and errata, even after a first release.) We have nothing more than a hot fix that adresses a lot of issues but misses a ton of other, smaller tidbits, and after that long, its worrysome.

I love Shadowrun. I love the fact its being revitalized and that this year has so much SR coming for us. I bought the new pdf within an hour of release, because its that awesome what you guys are doing. But i just can't bring myself to want to buy anymore supplements knowing i have gaping holes in the rules and i have to houserule everything, which i do, but it leaves a sour aftertaste in the sessions, especially among the more rule-lawyer inclined among us. (And with a system this complete/complicated, there's quite a few of those playing SR :P).

I dunno, maybe some official words would alleviate the concern, even if those words are simply that ''Too much stuff is going on BUT this errata is in progress''. Or maybe radio silence is also a fine corporate move, but after having official feedback in the past, its a bit of a letdown.

This post isnt as much about complaining as to bring up this following point: I won't be buying SR5 products for the time being. Because the basis is flawed, it doesnt entice me to buy anything else. A friend purchased (Firing Line? Sprawl Wilds?) lately, and even then i noticed some editing contradictions, sometimes in the same page, or 2 paragraphs apart. It's...shoddy editing. Not shoddy work. They work's there, the ideas are awesome, but editing wise? It's clunky at best. Without a stable ruleset, and with broken editing, i just cant justify purchasing products. It's better to houserule everything and plan things ''in-house''. Even the main catalyst website features more SR4A than SR5, and the transition doesn't seem to be happening at all. Should i simply revert to 4e, stick with the books i have and never look twice at SR5 again?

Should the errata be released, and concerns adressed (editing is an issue, but as long as erratas come out, its forgiveable. The buisness world is demanding and deadlines always seem to fall short of the time you assumed you had.) , i'll gladly return to purchasing SR5 products. But until then, i just dont see the point paying for something that doesn't work. If i buy a new computer, and everything BUT the CPU works...well, the computer still won't run. If everything works, but the power adaptor's cords to make it all run together doesnt work, the computer still won't work. Jury-rigging might make it work, but its not as advertised. Thank you, and i apologize again should my opinion on sensitive matters infuriate anyone. It was never meant so.
« Last Edit: <12-18-13/1233:42> by KraakenDazs »
Maybe, just maybe, concrete and Plasteel are MEANT to armor our planet, and not harm it, omae. Hydroponics can nourish our needy. And i assure you nuclear energy's been involved in getting you that fancy 'ware, chummer.Our mistake? Trading Wisdom for Greed. - Dögan "Babyface" Kross

Crunch

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« Reply #92 on: <12-18-13/1240:24> »
There has been official word that the Errata is in progress.

I'll say that if your perception of SR5 is based on the forums that you're not getting the whole picture. There are only a handful of actuial contradictions in the book, and very few editing errors that are real difficulties absent forum level hounding of minutia. 

KraakenDazs

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« Reply #93 on: <12-18-13/1243:07> »
I also understand a public forum might not be the optimal place for such a post. The reasons i did so however, are simple:

1) Its to transmit any news of Errata to the player population

and

2) There were no means to contact Catalyst directly through the main website. The closest thing was the forums, which is why i posted it here. If someone can give me proper directions to contact the people in charge, i'll gladly to it, and take down this post. (I'm not trying to actively diminish CGL's effort to the public eye. As i mentioned, i love the work put out so far, i just hope it's soon improved to a point where its useable without so much gray areas)
Maybe, just maybe, concrete and Plasteel are MEANT to armor our planet, and not harm it, omae. Hydroponics can nourish our needy. And i assure you nuclear energy's been involved in getting you that fancy 'ware, chummer.Our mistake? Trading Wisdom for Greed. - Dögan "Babyface" Kross

KraakenDazs

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« Reply #94 on: <12-18-13/1248:02> »
True, i'll gladly grant you there's a LOT of nitpicking on these forums that go beyond a reasonnable level of expectations (I won't go as far as to expect each single tidbit to be adressed)

But a lot of editing was /is unclear. For example, cover rules waste entire paragraphs sending you to a page, that redirects you to another, only to be redirected to a 3rd or 4th page.

The Archetypes (Which is basically introductory-level stuff for new players wanting to play quickly) is riddled with god-awful mistakes (I'm aware the system and its components changed between the creation of the Archetypes and the book publication, and as a stand-alone its ...frustrating but not incredibly so)...but...stuff adds :S

Dodging grenades, there's a mention of penalty to grenade dodging, but no actual method of resolve since its an AoE effect. Made even moreso complicated by AoE spells being covered like grenades.

I mean..18 pages of errata clarifications and dozens of Rules And Such pages have me a bit concerned :S

Maybe, just maybe, concrete and Plasteel are MEANT to armor our planet, and not harm it, omae. Hydroponics can nourish our needy. And i assure you nuclear energy's been involved in getting you that fancy 'ware, chummer.Our mistake? Trading Wisdom for Greed. - Dögan "Babyface" Kross

PeterSmith

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« Reply #95 on: <12-18-13/1338:56> »
Catalyst posts errata after it's been compiled. Errata is compiled as part of the reprint process. The only reason it was skipped prior to the current reprinting was due to the proximity to the original release data and the desire to fill the demand that came in above and beyond CGL's initial printing.

You picked up the PDF? Great, you're going to get the updated version when it's available (assuming you hit the notification box when you ordered). Will everything get addressed? Can't say. What I can tell you is when BattleTech's Tactical Operations went through its first errata process there were some sections that were re-written based on fan feedback. Will that happen with SR5? Don't know, that's a down-the-road decision. However there is precedence within CGL to make those changes.
Power corrupts.
Absolute power is kinda neat.

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KraakenDazs

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« Reply #96 on: <12-18-13/1353:15> »
Well, again, great to know, but absolutely no official words in month (that i know of. If this is an official answer...well, okay :) ), and the pdf 's been out for over half a year :S

In the last hour, and 8 pages in the Errata thread, im finding a lot of game-breaking contradictions. On the GM side, those can be houseruled, but on the PC creation side? Its kind of hard to ignore. Does jury-rigging effects have durations?  Is everything in the hotfix considered ''official'' until otherwise. Why can rigged cars go beyond the speed of sound, if not light. Does charge attack take in effect the -2 from running?Submersion has wrong karma costs, but beyond looking through those 8 pages, after 7 months i'd never know that without digging through pages and pages of player input erratas.  Gunnery and it's linked Ability. Hardened Armor and DV of equal value, which wins? Effective time reduction of Instruction skill rolls. Grenades and AoE spells, how do you dodge them, if you can. And most of  those are all not-only oversights, but contradictory statements in the book and i'm only on page 8. But getting there still only took me less than an hour. I'm not even going into the unclear stuff (Mystic Adepts, what exactly stacks in regard to attributes, minions effective skill level, spirit GM or player control and the ''Movement'' Power, etc.  :S 

BUT, i thank you for pointing out the precedents. In any case, I'm looking forward to continuing to support the company's effort in making Shadowrun the epic product it is. But i still won't be doing so until the errata comes out, no matter how many products are pushed out in the meantime. :S
Maybe, just maybe, concrete and Plasteel are MEANT to armor our planet, and not harm it, omae. Hydroponics can nourish our needy. And i assure you nuclear energy's been involved in getting you that fancy 'ware, chummer.Our mistake? Trading Wisdom for Greed. - Dögan "Babyface" Kross

Sichr

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« Reply #97 on: <12-18-13/1418:49> »
There has been official word that the Errata is in progress.

I'll say that if your perception of SR5 is based on the forums that you're not getting the whole picture. There are only a handful of actuial contradictions in the book, and very few editing errors that are real difficulties absent forum level hounding of minutia. 

Catalyst posts errata after it's been compiled. Errata is compiled as part of the reprint process. The only reason it was skipped prior to the current reprinting was due to the proximity to the original release data and the desire to fill the demand that came in above and beyond CGL's initial printing.

You picked up the PDF? Great, you're going to get the updated version when it's available (assuming you hit the notification box when you ordered). Will everything get addressed? Can't say. What I can tell you is when BattleTech's Tactical Operations went through its first errata process there were some sections that were re-written based on fan feedback. Will that happen with SR5? Don't know, that's a down-the-road decision. However there is precedence within CGL to make those changes.

I just read whole thread from the first post and it is nice to see your opinion evolving over the time to stay at least optimistic.
Truth is that The year of shadowrun is almost ower and from whole product line all we have is useless core book, Shadowrun Returns, lots of excuses for SR:O and lot of silence on the rest of planned products. At least for Crossfire there are signs of life, well it seems more like "stay tuned" than "we have developement  done" or "we know the deadline"

Crunch

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« Reply #98 on: <12-18-13/1419:45> »
Having run 4 months worth of games, the core book is in no way useless.

Sichr

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« Reply #99 on: <12-18-13/1445:05> »
Having run 4 months worth of games, the core book is in no way useless.

Nope. We have tried to play by those rules, and get back to SRA. I was a bit annoyed, since my hacker character is quite limited in action due to large gaps in SRA matrix ruls, well, here was too much confusion on rules and too much need for explanations and improvisations due to contradictions or missing text that we spend most time reserved for the game by trying to find out something basic.

This may be caused by the fact our team is not native english speaking, average for most of us. This increases the need for strict, simple rules, because every mistake that can be simply overriden by you means great obstacle for us. SRA was much easier to read/navigate/understand for us.

Having run 4 months worth of games, the core book is in no way useless.

It's not, but to those who subscribe to the entitlement-ridden idea of "the customer is always right", it might be.

Sorry, but I just hate that saying because it leads to those who think that because they have to wait a little longer for their burger at McDonald's because they chose to go in at a time when there's a line extending out the door that they should get their entire meal free. This entire thread reminds me of those people.

Go. Tell. Valve. ;)
You are shooting at wrong target. It seems you think that we are complaining about things getting too long. But what we are really complaining about is lack of regular feedback from CGL. And the year is almost over.

Crunch

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« Reply #100 on: <12-18-13/1448:14> »
I'm sorry if you're having problems with the core book in your group, but calling the book useless is simply untrue.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #101 on: <12-18-13/1457:16> »
This may be caused by the fact our team is not native english speaking, average for most of us. This increases the need for strict, simple rules, because every mistake that can be simply overriden by you means great obstacle for us. SRA was much easier to read/navigate/understand for us.

The company is composed of English speaking employees and is located in a primarily English speaking nation, and most that purchase the game are in that nation. Sorry if you're having problems since you aren't native speakers of English, but that's a very niche situation and does not actually make the book "useless" to the majority of players. Those of us who are native speakers of English would probably have problems with any game published primarily in your home country--it's to be expected.
« Last Edit: <12-18-13/1516:42> by All4BigGuns »
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martinchaen

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« Reply #102 on: <12-18-13/1513:03> »
I'm sorry if you're having problems with the core book in your group, but calling the book useless is simply untrue.
QFT.

My group had some initial frustrations (in large part due to my frustration with the lethality of basic mooks against street level characters, but the GM did an awesome job of adjusting to the new rules), and we are now 8-10 runs deep in a street-level thugs turned shadowrunners style campaign, as well as halfway through the dual-statted CMP2010s, working our way towards SRM Season 5.

SR5 is in no way useless. Could it use some clarifications and elaborations, yes. Can you still enjoy it as is, abso-fraggin'-lutely.

Sichr

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« Reply #103 on: <12-18-13/1527:35> »
This may be caused by the fact our team is not native english speaking, average for most of us. This increases the need for strict, simple rules, because every mistake that can be simply overriden by you means great obstacle for us. SRA was much easier to read/navigate/understand for us.

The company is composed of English speaking employees and is located in a primarily English speaking nation, and most that purchase the game are in that nation. Sorry if you're having problems since you aren't native speakers of English, but that's a very niche situation and does not actually make the book "useless" to the majority of players. Those of us who are native speakers of English would probably have problems with any game published primarily in your home country--it's to be expected.

pah. There is nothing like Shadowrun  :) and it wasnt my point. We will try the 5ed again when erratas are ou and also other core books give us better understanding of RAI, so we are able to rule out where we are confused in basic book.

OK I agree that calling the book "Useless" was a overstated.

Now what about the other part of my message. That about the lack of regular communication from CGL.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #104 on: <12-18-13/1532:57> »
Now what about the other part of my message. That about the lack of regular communication from CGL.

Irrelevant and simply proof that gamers these days are becoming spoiled rotten. Gaming functioned just fine back in the pre-internet days when "errata" wasn't known about and changes weren't seen until a reprint with said changes had already hit the shelves. Claiming that you "need errata to play the game" simply isn't true because of that simple fact.
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