Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: _-Target-_ on <09-08-10/0206:17>

Title: It Must be stated
Post by: _-Target-_ on <09-08-10/0206:17>
Hello Fellow Runners,

I am rather new to the scene, and so have recently read many of the jackpoint files (core rule books) to the point that I feel as if my head is going to explode... that aside

It has to be said:

It's a #@$T@  MAGAZINE not a CLIP

Here is a link to a video that will explain it to you
http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/sports/watch/v6609445x3TGfab3 (http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/sports/watch/v6609445x3TGfab3)


Over and Over in print, SR constantly refer to magazines as clips, in the wrong usage...  I have to choke down a sound that I automatically emit when I read that.  Firearms are a necessary part of my life, I spend many hours training with them every week.   The use of clip in the wrong verb-age shows a gross lack of knowledge or even disrespect to the firearm community at large..  SR  does a wonderful job of building plausible technology at least from a conceptual point of view... but dear god this needs to be addressed.  First time I get new people on the firring line I have to beat the Hollywood out of them, Please SR in future editions use a common search and replace function available in both adobe and MS word, or star office to fix this travesty.

I will now get off my soap box and quietly go back to the shadows.. but I am watching you SR...
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Critias on <09-08-10/0213:05>
I've told myself that game companies do it just to save on word count.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Mooncrow on <09-08-10/0230:04>
Yes, it's something that's been mentioned on a fairly regular basis^^ 

But, disrespect, really?  Travesty?  Sorry, I can't say I really see that.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Mäx on <09-08-10/0233:00>
How do you know that any of those weapons in SR use magazines,maybe they all do use clips ;)
Maybe all the artist just got the look of the guns wrong ;D
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Mooncrow on <09-08-10/0241:10>
It's a question of definition:

Magazines feed rounds into the firing chamber

Clips feed rounds into magazines
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Pepsi Jedi on <09-08-10/0326:16>
If you're out in the real world exchanging fire with orcs and trolls and security forces.. I Imagine it might mean something to you.

In our living rooms and such around the gaming table. Why cause such a fuss?
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: kinderkrieg on <09-08-10/0342:57>
i really don't see this point offending a majority of gamers. Kind of confused as to why anyone would feel disrespect at the two being switched. Sorry you feel this way but really, it's a fictional game, in a fictional universe, just chalk it up with creative license and get on with enjoying the rest of the game.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Pepsi Jedi on <09-08-10/0354:48>
Or just use the word you prefer. It's not like it's going to confuse anyone. If you call it a 'clip' or a 'magazine', in reference to something with bullets to go in a gun. Everyone knows what you're describing.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Mooncrow on <09-08-10/0402:02>
Yep.  It's one of those things that can be mildly annoying to those in the know, but it's hardly something to get worked up over.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-08-10/0505:44>
I'm working in the industrial computer industry. If I got worked up over every bit of pure bulldrek regarding the Matrix... I would've stopped playing Shadowrun years ago. *shrugs* Its a game, its fiction, so fraggin what.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-08-10/0543:23>
It's informative and interesting, but I don't imagine many will stick to the technical terms regarding firearms.

Trust me, as a former Navy Nuclear technician, whenever I hear the TV spout "The reactor's going CRITICAL!"  I just want to laugh/cry/hurl heavy objects.

For those who don't know, "critical" means that you have TURNED THE REACTOR ON.  It is at the CRITICAL point where it is now a self-sustaining reaction.

I get where you are coming from, but TV and Hollywood (and, by extension, most of the public) will always use terms they have very little knowledge of.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: raggedhalo on <09-08-10/0543:55>
Rule of Cool, surely?  A little Hollywood is fine in Shadowrun.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-08-10/0551:05>
Rule of Cool, surely?  A little Hollywood is fine in Shadowrun.

QFT
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: John Schmidt on <09-08-10/0557:19>
"The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name." - Confucius

Like the difference between an engine and motor.

Well, Hollywood does things that can be very silly too. The armor piercing 9mm rounds punching a hole through the blade of a bulldozer and killing the bad guy operating it comes readily to mind. Thankfully we have Mythbusters to keep us grounded in reality!

If I am still freelancing for Catalyst when the time comes for 5th Edition I will certainly bring this point up. Just understand though, that my word doesn't carry a lot of weight...heck even I don't listen to myself at time!  ;D
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Jonny Reload on <09-08-10/0558:00>
I gotta side with Target on this one.... Not as passionately as him, but it's still friggin obnoxious. Take a look at fantasy role players and when people in the UK Spell Armor = Armour..... The amount of pocket protectors and blood spattered D20's that lay in the wake of such epic battles only proves that when you build a game around certain aspects, fans of those aspects (Guns) will start to notice your imperfections.

This isn't something that's like stating "Were suspending disbelief since there's Elves and Trolls in the world for the sake of plot." This is basically perpetuating ignorance for no reason to further plot or the game setting.... It's just laziness. I mean I could bet money if one day people started calling Elves in Shadowrun "Ducks" for no apparent reason, it would drive people insane to the point they'd be foaming at the mouth. It's not a "Hollywood Cool" thing, bullet time, slow motion, dramatic pauses while role playing, are Hollywood things.... This is just laziness.

If anyone here could give a logical explanation as to why Shadowrun (after 4 damn editions) keeps calling a Magazine a Clip, I will gladly lay down my beliefs that the writers can be really lazy with certain aspects of the game. For god sakes, they do tons of research on new advances in technology so they can shove it in right away and claim it to be 2070 tech..... They can't figure out the box thingie you put into the hole thing is called a Magazine?!  ???
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-08-10/0607:00>
Because they don't know the difference?  They had no idea one existed?

My nome de plume aside, I didn't even know what the difference between a magazine and a clip was.  I just thought "clip" was slang for magazine.  And that's probably how the writers saw it.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Jonny Reload on <09-08-10/0616:38>
I would love to actually know the history of HOW in American culture this mix up began in the 70's and literally NEVER was brought into question by a growing group of gun fans until the late 2000's! It's just this misconception that has been left unchecked for so long in popular belief that it began to change the definition itself until people who actually run a few gun companies stood up and said "Uhhh, no, we call them magazines"

In all honesty, I'd be happy if Shadowrun even came up with some sort of fluff in the plot to explain WHY people call them clips instead of just letting it stay there without explanation.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: John Schmidt on <09-08-10/0631:23>
I remember during the first Gulf War, Dan Rather is giving this news report where he is talking about this new invention, cut to a Tomcat taking off, the afterburner. I am like, oh really? They date back to before the SR-71.  :-[

Pop culture, movies and the news shows would be my best guess.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Mäx on <09-08-10/0632:47>
And i ask again, how do you know those weapons that in SR use clips don't actually use clips instead of magazines ;)
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Jonny Reload on <09-08-10/0638:15>
And i ask again, how do you know those weapons that in SR use clips don't actually use clips instead of magazines ;)

Because if you tried to put a clip into an Ares Predator, and some how managed to lodge the first round into the chamber, the rest of your rounds would fall rattling onto the ground... That would be to embarrassing for any Shadowrunner to face...

"Time out guys! Sorry, I was using a clip instead of a mag, I know, I know!.... Lemme just... Excuse me... Let me just get a few of... Some of my rounds fell under your legs sir."
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: John Schmidt on <09-08-10/0642:43>
I don't care who you are, now that is funny!  ;D
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Usda Beph on <09-08-10/0738:54>
*Poke*I always thought a clip was something my wife holds her doo in place with and a magazine was a Gossip rag???*Dives for cover*






Never mind my years as a US Marine ;) :D ;D
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-08-10/0740:56>
I remember during the first Gulf War, Dan Rather is giving this news report where he is talking about this new invention, cut to a Tomcat taking off, the afterburner. I am like, oh really? They date back to before the SR-71.  :-[

Pop culture, movies and the news shows would be my best guess.
Wait, what?  Seriously?  He said that?

My opinion of mass media keeps dropping day by day.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-08-10/0745:18>
You still have an opinion on mass media that can drop?? Oh, wait, you dont watch FOX news, do you? ;)
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: John Schmidt on <09-08-10/0755:01>
I am certain that there are topics that Dan Rather is extremely well versed in that I would look (and sound) the fool if I tried to talk about.

We all have our areas of interest and I am not faulting him for that.  ;D

Anyone who knows me will tell you that I have my pet peeves, the hot swapping of truth and fact, democracy for republic, and so forth. As a writer I have to believe that words matter, they have power, shaping perception and policy, so using the right ones are important to me.

Duck for elves...and behold...the immortal ducks.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: John Schmidt on <09-08-10/0759:10>
You still have an opinion on mass media that can drop?? Oh, wait, you dont watch FOX news, do you? ;)

I am mentally smacking myself upside the head for the Dan Rather post now. We (and me included) should endeavor to keep the conversation clear of the political side of things.

Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: DWC on <09-08-10/0801:10>
I've started to assume that the mistake is being perpetuated out of spite.  There's really no other reason to be willfully and constantly wrong about something when being right takes no effort.  It's right up there with the Acceleration/Speed thing in SR4.  Referring to the two stats as Tactical Speed and Chase Speed would have avoided massive numbers of people grossly misunderstanding how vehicles move.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Usda Beph on <09-08-10/0801:54>
John I know the power of the written/spoken word. I use them well to make silly puns out of comments all the time. ;D
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-08-10/0803:58>
Agreed and warning understood, Herr Schmidt ;)

I can understand the frustration of the well versed weapon owners (the same is true for me and the matrix rules and computers). In case of the weapon loading mechanism, I guess someone without the proper knowledge made the definition mistake and the team (and the team after the team) carried that through the versions, maybe because of lack of knowledge, maybe not to cause confusion when different versions are compared, who knows.

Best thing to do is IMHO write the DEVs about this.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Mäx on <09-08-10/0805:23>
Because if you tried to put a clip into an Ares Predator, and some how managed to lodge the first round into the chamber, the rest of your rounds would fall rattling onto the ground... That would be to embarrassing for any Shadowrunner to face...
Considering there are real pistols that use clips, i wouldn't be so sure ;)
Maybe for some bizarre reason noone ever invented a removable magazines in SR world ::)
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-08-10/0819:14>
Somehow, I doubt that...
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Jonny Reload on <09-08-10/0910:17>
Considering there are real pistols that use clips, i wouldn't be so sure ;)
Maybe for some bizarre reason noone ever invented a removable magazines in SR world ::)

See, with the Agility rules in place stating how many rounds you can load per Complex Action, I could actually see that slipping into the storyline!  :D
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: FastJack on <09-08-10/1010:18>
Y'know for a issue that's 'not that big a deal', 31 replies in 7 hours is pretty impressive.

Two things (as someone that has seen many strange behaviors/ideas from working in corporate America and also with marketing reps):

1)  You fail to take into account that the average gamer has no idea of the difference between a magazine or a clip. Or cares that there's a difference. Neither terms are used in great degree, even in movies where guns are prevalent. Most of the time, they simply say "I'm out!" when talking ammo. (If they are shooting 15 rounds without loading a revolver.)

2)  Words cost money. Magazine is twice the length of clip. Might not seem like a lot, but when you're dealing with printed materials, every penny counts. And if you can shorten a book by 2-4 pages by misusing a term that everyone thinks is similar to the correct term, chances are you're going to go with the shorter term. And hope that the minority of your customers that would recognize the difference are forgiving enough to not make a big deal out of it.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Usda Beph on <09-08-10/1016:03>
Y'know for a issue that's 'not that big a deal', 31 replies in 7 hours is pretty impressive.
Did you forget there is someone who's always wrong on the interwebz! ;D
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: MJBurrage on <09-08-10/1018:08>
For better or for worse, English is a descriptivist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_description) language, not a prescriptivist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_prescription) one.

While there is a technical difference, between magazine and clip, that does matters to their designers and historians; the simple fact is that in common English usage, the two words have been conflated for eight decades, as even the NRA’s Firearms Glossary (http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FirearmsGlossary/) acknowledges.

You might as well argue over whether firearms are guns.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: 1 on <09-08-10/1021:00>
I thought all the [C] guns in Shadowrun had fixed magazines and fed in all the ammunition through clips.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-08-10/1030:07>
I thought all the [C] guns in Shadowrun had fixed magazines and fed in all the ammunition through clips.

*head explodes*
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Usda Beph on <09-08-10/1031:30>
Quote from: wiki
A magazine is an ammunition storage and feeding device within or attached to a repeating firearm. Magazines may be integral to the firearm (fixed) or removable (detachable). The magazine functions by moving the cartridges stored in the magazine into a position where they may be loaded into the chamber by the action of the firearm. The detachable magazine is often referred to as a clip; such usage is frowned upon by many authorities on firearms but is nonetheless commonplace.
K Nuff said.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-08-10/1032:53>
Truthfully, using "clip" to refer to external magazines and "magazine" to refer to internal ones does make it easier to distinguish between the two in brief texts.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Usda Beph on <09-08-10/1053:43>
Truthfully, using "clip" to refer to external magazines and "magazine" to refer to internal ones does make it easier to distinguish between the two in brief texts.
Ok so for all this time of me not knowing the difference. Clips go IN the weapon Mags stick out! Thats it? That's the difference? OMG :o That's just to funny!
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Mooncrow on <09-08-10/1055:59>
Truthfully, using "clip" to refer to external magazines and "magazine" to refer to internal ones does make it easier to distinguish between the two in brief texts.
Ok so for all this time of me not knowing the difference. Clips go IN the weapon Mags stick out! Thats it? That's the difference? OMG :o That's just to funny!

Mmm, kind of.  Clips can also go into an external magazine though.  They're more like speedloaders. 
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Usda Beph on <09-08-10/1101:05>
Truthfully, using "clip" to refer to external magazines and "magazine" to refer to internal ones does make it easier to distinguish between the two in brief texts.
Ok so for all this time of me not knowing the difference. Clips go IN the weapon Mags stick out! Thats it? That's the difference? OMG :o That's just to funny!

Mmm, kind of.  Clips can also go into an external magazine though.  They're more like speedloaders. 
Like teh "clips used for rapid loading an M-16?
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-08-10/1101:30>
Wow, I just found a movie mistake! In "Black Hawk Down" there is a scene were the two guys in the downed heli fight for their lives and one yells "I need a pistol mag!" So that should've technically been a pistol CLIP... right...?
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-08-10/1103:47>
Heh, no, they actually got that one right.  The pistol uses an ejectable "external" magazine.  If I'm reading all this correctly.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-08-10/1115:20>
Ok, that's it. I am officially giving up and converting to the "I don't give a frag!" crowd.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Usda Beph on <09-08-10/1117:39>
Ok, that's it. I am officially giving up and converting to the "I don't give a frag!" crowd.
Aww come on I was just about to bring up the difference between a boat and a ship! ;D
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-08-10/1118:41>
LALALALALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU FINGERS IN MY EARS WAX ON MY FINGERTIPS LALALALALALALALALALA
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: 1 on <09-08-10/1129:21>
It's easy to remember. You drive on a driveway and park on a parkway.

No wait. That's not right either.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: FastJack on <09-08-10/1129:39>
Welcome to the group.

Here's your revolver. :D
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <09-08-10/1141:05>
My biggest gripe is the so-called "science" utilized by movies and TV.

I imagine that this is what it is like for the "real" mages and shamans in Shadowrun.  When the latest Karl Kombatmage movie comes out, they let out a collective groan.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: 1 on <09-08-10/1317:23>
My biggest gripe is the so-called "science" utilized by movies and TV.

I think Leverage has it perfect. I fume for a couple days and then crave the next episode, knowing full well they'll stick it to me again.

What's nice is they don't stop at science. I think they get everything wrong in one episode or another.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Jadehellbringer on <09-08-10/1331:58>
Ok, that's it. I am officially giving up and converting to the "I don't give a frag!" crowd.

Au contraire! When you can't figure out the differance between a clip and a magazine, you may be better off using frag grenades anyway! ;)
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Dead Monky on <09-08-10/1334:59>
Do not mock the frag grenade.  You'd be amazed how many household object they can fit in.   ;D
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: FastJack on <09-08-10/1354:02>
Toss a grenade in Monky's doss and you wind up taking out the whole block.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Dead Monky on <09-08-10/1401:53>
Only the block?
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: FastJack on <09-08-10/1407:38>
Depends. If you live in the Barrens, you might take it all out...
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Dead Monky on <09-08-10/1409:28>
Quote
Depends. If you live in the Barrens, you might take it all out...
:D  True.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-08-10/1411:31>
Do not mock the frag grenade.  You'd be amazed how many household object they can fit in.   ;D

I'd never mock something that can kill me by RAW if I roll unlucky on scatter...
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: _-Target-_ on <09-08-10/1427:36>
  Wow I had no idea this was such a heated topic.

I typed this out last night before bed, checking it now an hour before lunch, 4 pages of responses..

Regardless of how you feel about this topic, it does seem clear it should be addressed.  I mean the % of SR players that are even on these forums at this point has to be under 1%.

 Whomever quoted a Wikii about that indicated that the term clip was commonplace, please remember that Wikii's are created and maintained by the public, not industry experts... the same uneducated public that commonly refers to magazines as clips.. I don't think anyone who works with firearms, or has formally trained with them ever makes this mistake.

 There are 2 firearms that come to mind as clip using, one is an SKS with a non removable magazine (its not internal, its held on with a screw) it is loaded by pressing a rounds off a clip down the top of the riffle, the empty clip drops out the bottom.  and the M1 Garand you push down on the back of the clip and it holds them down inside the riffle on the clip, as the rounds are shot the clip slowly climbs out of the riffle until it is launched clear after the last round.. There is no way to unload these weapons without ejecting all the rounds in some fashion.  BTW both these firearms predate 1947, nothing comes to mind as a military used riffle newer then 1947 that uses a clip.

There is a type of clip called a moon clip, that is used for a specific revolver, but it is exactly a clip, and is used to speed load the gun..

My point is still true, to people who spend a lot of time with firearms, the term clip is ignorant.  There is no other viewpoint, especially if they have taken to time to explain the difference to the new people and they still call mags, clips..

To the person that pointed out that magazine is 2x as long as clip, I offer that Mag is 25% shorter than clip and perfectly acceptable in all cases

In game mechanics if they called Magazines (M), and internal Magazines (IM) no one would be confused..Then when I buy clips for my firearms, it would be to load them into my (IM), or to speed load them into my Mags..

So everyone is happy, and you stop propagating ignorance to a new generation of gamers.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Usda Beph on <09-08-10/1434:30>
That was me... I just wanted to know then share! ;D
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: FastJack on <09-08-10/1447:10>
  Wow I had no idea this was such a heated topic.

I typed this out last night before bed, checking it now an hour before lunch, 4 pages of responses..

Regardless of how you feel about this topic, it does seem clear it should be addressed.  I mean the % of SR players that are even on these forums at this point has to be under 1%.

 Whomever quoted a Wikii about that indicated that the term clip was commonplace, please remember that Wikii's are created and maintained by the public, not industry experts... the same uneducated public that commonly refers to magazines as clips.. I don't think anyone who works with firearms, or has formally trained with them ever makes this mistake.

 There are 2 firearms that come to mind as clip using, one is an SKS with a non removable magazine (its not internal, its held on with a screw) it is loaded by pressing a rounds off a clip down the top of the riffle, the empty clip drops out the bottom.  and the M1 Garand you push down on the back of the clip and it holds them down inside the riffle on the clip, as the rounds are shot the clip slowly climbs out of the riffle until it is launched clear after the last round.. There is no way to unload these weapons without ejecting all the rounds in some fashion.  BTW both these firearms predate 1947, nothing comes to mind as a military used riffle newer then 1947 that uses a clip.

There is a type of clip called a moon clip, that is used for a specific revolver, but it is exactly a clip, and is used to speed load the gun..

My point is still true, to people who spend a lot of time with firearms, the term clip is ignorant.  There is no other viewpoint, especially if they have taken to time to explain the difference to the new people and they still call mags, clips..

To the person that pointed out that magazine is 2x as long as clip, I offer that Mag is 25% shorter than clip and perfectly acceptable in all cases

In game mechanics if they called Magazines (M), and internal Magazines (IM) no one would be confused..Then when I buy clips for my firearms, it would be to load them into my (IM), or to speed load them into my Mags..

So everyone is happy, and you stop propagating ignorance to a new generation of gamers.
And I think the main point I was making was that it's not knowledge that's needed. So they call it clip/magazine/bullet box? Some (like yourself) will correct them, and either they will take that knowledge and change or not, since it just a game.

Now, if I was on the firing range with my brother-in-law and his fellow cops, you can bet for damn sure I'm going to use the right terminology. Because in that situation, it truly will make a difference.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Caine Hazen on <09-08-10/1515:19>
Huh... when I'm on the firing range I always shout "throw me a clip" just to watch all the guys give me that dirty look...  But maybe that's just how I am. ;D
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Critias on <09-08-10/1527:34>
Whether it's what's "right" or not (and believe me, I know that it is), it's not necessarily worth getting worked up about, and it's certainly not worth taking as some sort of insult, or slap in the face.  

Given how prevalent the use of "clips" is in modern society -- I've heard it used not only at my local firing range, not only on a firing range where I was punching paper with some local SWAT guys, not only in the Army, but on some of the recent info-tainment gun/weapon shows like Deadliest Warrior and Future Weapons and stuff -- it's perfectly possible that by the time the Shadowrun universe rolls around, clip is the correct term.

Forty, fifty, sixty years from now, it could totally happen.  Just tell yourself that a clip is a magazine in the SR-verse, and go about enjoying the game.  No need to get excited.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Dead Monky on <09-08-10/1529:13>
Indeed.  My brother gets all pissy about the distinction between a "clip" and a "magazine."  I call them all "bullet holdey-things" just to irritate him.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: FastJack on <09-08-10/1616:33>
Indeed.  My brother gets all pissy about the distinction between a "clip" and a "magazine."  I call them all "bullet holdey-things" just to irritate him.
Wait. You carry a gun? Is that in case you (god forbid) run out of grenades?
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Dead Monky on <09-08-10/1617:42>
Quote
Wait. You carry a gun? Is that in case you (god forbid) run out of grenades?
It's just a little one, don't worry.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: 1 on <09-08-10/1634:27>
Indeed.  My brother gets all pissy about the distinction between a "clip" and a "magazine."  I call them all "bullet holdey-things" just to irritate him.
Wait. You carry a gun? Is that in case you (god forbid) run out of grenades?
It's so he has something to check in at the ammo desk. Otherwise they might think he's a mage.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Dead Monky on <09-08-10/1647:38>
Quote
It's so he has something to check in at the ammo desk. Otherwise they might think he's a mage.
Who says I'm not?   ;D
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Casazil on <09-08-10/1818:31>
Sigh someone always wants to bring reality into my fantasy/futureistic game .........

GO AWAY!! :P  :P :P :P :P ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

So ok that said yes in theory it's a magazine so what like I said it's a game go with it.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Turtletron on <09-08-10/1847:05>
Quote
It's so he has something to check in at the ammo desk. Otherwise they might think he's a mage.
Who says I'm not?   ;D

Nice, throw a grenade at your enemies and than create a physical barrier around them to imprison them in the explosion area 8).
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Bisharian on <09-08-10/1856:51>
Sigh someone always wants to bring reality into my fantasy/futureistic game .........

GO AWAY!! :P  :P :P :P :P ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

So ok that said yes in theory it's a magazine so what like I said it's a game go with it.
Bringing reality to fantasy is the easiest way to become apart of that fantasy, if there are at least a few similarities it is MUCH more easy for the brain to accept, thus allowing more pleasure from said fantasy. If there is anything to remind the player that it is just a fantasy, it can become very frustrating. If we precieve our reality is false, we struggle to live. Perception is reality...
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Bisharian on <09-08-10/1904:32>
Btw, I wonder, if magic ever became a reality, how much people should complain that SR gets it wrong? Let that blow your mind! Weee-woo, Ker-plow!
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Dead Monky on <09-08-10/2025:53>
Quote
Nice, throw a grenade at your enemies and than create a physical barrier around them to imprison them in the explosion area  8)
Nice.  Now I'm going to have to try that.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Jonny Reload on <09-08-10/2042:48>
Y'know for a issue that's 'not that big a deal', 31 replies in 7 hours is pretty impressive.

Two things (as someone that has seen many strange behaviors/ideas from working in corporate America and also with marketing reps):

1)  You fail to take into account that the average gamer has no idea of the difference between a magazine or a clip. Or cares that there's a difference. Neither terms are used in great degree, even in movies where guns are prevalent. Most of the time, they simply say "I'm out!" when talking ammo. (If they are shooting 15 rounds without loading a revolver.)

2)  Words cost money. Magazine is twice the length of clip. Might not seem like a lot, but when you're dealing with printed materials, every penny counts. And if you can shorten a book by 2-4 pages by misusing a term that everyone thinks is similar to the correct term, chances are you're going to go with the shorter term. And hope that the minority of your customers that would recognize the difference are forgiving enough to not make a big deal out of it.

I'm so glad we've now found the official representative for deciding on if things are important or not and judge of who "average gamers" are  ::) I mean if you didn't announce yourself, my self identity would be lost in the ether! Thank you so much!
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Kontact on <09-08-10/2057:42>
Regardless of any other meaning, "clip" is street slang for a detachable box magazine.

Process this information and accept it.  The grieving process has gone on for too long now.


If you want to get huffy over the use of street slang on the internet or in rule books, feel free.  Just be aware, that is what you are doing.
Like if you were all in a tizzy because people were saying "cop" instead of "police officer," it's really not important from a linguistics standpoint.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: FastJack on <09-08-10/2100:41>
Y'know for a issue that's 'not that big a deal', 31 replies in 7 hours is pretty impressive.

Two things (as someone that has seen many strange behaviors/ideas from working in corporate America and also with marketing reps):

1)  You fail to take into account that the average gamer has no idea of the difference between a magazine or a clip. Or cares that there's a difference. Neither terms are used in great degree, even in movies where guns are prevalent. Most of the time, they simply say "I'm out!" when talking ammo. (If they are shooting 15 rounds without loading a revolver.)

2)  Words cost money. Magazine is twice the length of clip. Might not seem like a lot, but when you're dealing with printed materials, every penny counts. And if you can shorten a book by 2-4 pages by misusing a term that everyone thinks is similar to the correct term, chances are you're going to go with the shorter term. And hope that the minority of your customers that would recognize the difference are forgiving enough to not make a big deal out of it.

I'm so glad we've now found the official representative for deciding on if things are important or not and judge of who "average gamers" are  ::) I mean if you didn't announce yourself, my self identity would be lost in the ether! Thank you so much!
Sorry, it wasn't my intent to speak for anyone. I was just trying to posit that on average, this isn't that important. I didn't mean to belittle anyone's opinions.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Jonny Reload on <09-08-10/2147:30>
Sorry, it wasn't my intent to speak for anyone. I was just trying to posit that on average, this isn't that important. I didn't mean to belittle anyone's opinions.
Ya know, I think I still have Dumpshock forum troll syndrome from previous experiences of posting but I honestly didn't expect a positive response after I posted that comment... I'm happy to see people can actually speak there minds and not turn threads into flame wars. I really hope this forum experiences a lot less trolling then Dumpshock does.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: FastJack on <09-08-10/2210:05>
Well, unless the troll is 8' tall and has horns. They're allowed. ;)
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Turtletron on <09-08-10/2236:53>
Well, unless the troll is 8' tall and has horns. They're allowed. ;)

http://www.cad-comic.com/cad/20100707
Looks to me like this guy's a real troll, in both ways :D
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-09-10/0017:23>
Nice, throw a grenade at your enemies and than create a physical barrier around them to imprison them in the explosion area 8).

Genius... gotta remember that one...
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Elseabea on <09-09-10/0026:53>
It's informative and interesting, but I don't imagine many will stick to the technical terms regarding firearms.

Trust me, as a former Navy Nuclear technician, whenever I hear the TV spout "The reactor's going CRITICAL!"  I just want to laugh/cry/hurl heavy objects.

For those who don't know, "critical" means that you have TURNED THE REACTOR ON.  It is at the CRITICAL point where it is now a self-sustaining reaction.

I get where you are coming from, but TV and Hollywood (and, by extension, most of the public) will always use terms they have very little knowledge of.

I work on submarines, carriers, and what not for the Navy (hey, the money is good) and you have no idea how much some of this kind of thing drives me nuts at times. Other times, I just get over it.

Same thing with Seattle 2072. I live near Seattle and the little things in there I find.... odd. Wrong.  Oh well.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-09-10/0054:29>
Tell me about it. I am living near the city of Munich in Germany. There is a Munich Sourcebook (published only in german). Need I say more...? :)
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Turtletron on <09-09-10/0216:18>
Nice, throw a grenade at your enemies and than create a physical barrier around them to imprison them in the explosion area 8).

Genius... gotta remember that one...

Happy that you like the idea  :D
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Pepsi Jedi on <09-09-10/0403:46>
Seeing as Clip is common slang for Magazine when speaking of guns and in context. The Shadowrun writers may have chosen "Clip" on purpose. As to avoid confusion with people who's only knowledge of guns, is through RPGs.

Calling it a "Magazine" might conjure images of Toyfare or Newsweek or Wired, or Entertainment Weekly. Or.... Guns And Ammo.  A clip in reference to a gun has fewer ways to be confused. Sure you can clip your gun to your belt but you can put your magazines in your belt as well but what if you have a magazine on guns and in the magazine there are clips or news clips about magazines?

lol

IRL It's nice to be clear and use proper terminology.

In a game. use what's fun and common.

If you want to use Magazine in your games. Use it. :) It's not like it's a consistantly mis-spelled word. It's slang or a synonym through common parlance.

Lighten up!

Be excellent to each other!
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Jadehellbringer on <09-09-10/0648:03>
It's informative and interesting, but I don't imagine many will stick to the technical terms regarding firearms.

Trust me, as a former Navy Nuclear technician, whenever I hear the TV spout "The reactor's going CRITICAL!"  I just want to laugh/cry/hurl heavy objects.

For those who don't know, "critical" means that you have TURNED THE REACTOR ON.  It is at the CRITICAL point where it is now a self-sustaining reaction.

I get where you are coming from, but TV and Hollywood (and, by extension, most of the public) will always use terms they have very little knowledge of.

I work on submarines, carriers, and what not for the Navy (hey, the money is good) and you have no idea how much some of this kind of thing drives me nuts at times. Other times, I just get over it.

Same thing with Seattle 2072. I live near Seattle and the little things in there I find.... odd. Wrong.  Oh well.

I've found a few discrepancies in my old hometown as well... must have totally missed Aztlan getting thrown out of town by a huge freaking dragon, for example. See what happens when I only have time for the sports page?  ;D
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Usda Beph on <09-09-10/0953:26>
LOL But this ain't your Seattle any more. Nor is it my Detroit. It's Shadowruns. So the discrepencies are there because the writers don't live in our home towns and it is supposed to be a fictional setting. So I figure its cool. If I were to GM a Detroit game I'd just use a City map and fluff the Sprawl. In our case I MIGHT have to tone it down a bit... ;D
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Juxtamon on <09-09-10/1051:20>
Nice, throw a grenade at your enemies and than create a physical barrier around them to imprison them in the explosion area 8).

Genius... gotta remember that one...

Just have to get the barrier strong enough so it doesn't pop with the explosion.  If you get a nice small one around, and it holds against the blast?  Tupperware for your chunky salsa!
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Usda Beph on <09-09-10/1104:54>
Nice, throw a grenade at your enemies and than create a physical barrier around them to imprison them in the explosion area 8).

Genius... gotta remember that one...

Just have to get the barrier strong enough so it doesn't pop with the explosion.  If you get a nice small one around, and it holds against the blast?  Tupperware for your chunky salsa!
Ok dude... I'm eating pizza rigt now. I almost shot it out my nose! ;D
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: rockstar on <09-09-10/1203:25>
 the thing is that its not a mis-stated term because some of the guns do use magazines. if it was as simple as that then they'd all use a clip.

as for the physical barrier aroun a grenade thing.... hells yeah!!!
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: FastJack on <09-09-10/1211:39>
It's 2072, 62 years from now. Maybe they DO all use a clip?
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Turtletron on <09-09-10/1220:01>
ok, don't want to be a party pooper, but the guy who first added this post _-Target-_ , he's not even answering to this post anymore, may I suggest we pass to another subject, we pretty much covered the whole thing :-\

and btw, just to be sure there's no confusion, I say this in a very friendly manner :) (it's just that after the second page people started to repeat themselves a lot)
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Critias on <09-09-10/1237:34>
It's 2072, 62 years from now. Maybe they DO all use a clip?
It's obvious from artwork and the descriptions of what a "clip" is (and what it does, and how many rounds it holds, and that they're caseless rounds which would make using an actual clip difficult)...nah.

They're just calling a magazine a clip, is all.  *shrugs*  It's wrong, but not game-breakingly so, or worth a boycott or anything.  I just tell myself "clip" became the accepted term (for what is technically a magazine) sometime over the next 40+ years.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: FastJack on <09-09-10/1245:38>
I figured as much, just thought I'd toss it out there. And kind of on the subject, over 62 years, the word may have changed meaning:

Eight words which have completely changed their meaning over time (http://writinghood.com/style/grammar/eight-words-which-have-completely-changed-their-meaning-over-time/)
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Usda Beph on <09-09-10/1500:44>
*singing*This is the tread that never ends
Yes it goes on and on my friends*Sings*
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-09-10/1521:52>
I figured as much, just thought I'd toss it out there. And kind of on the subject, over 62 years, the word may have changed meaning:

Eight words which have completely changed their meaning over time (http://writinghood.com/style/grammar/eight-words-which-have-completely-changed-their-meaning-over-time/)

Anybody remember the OLD meaning of "gay"?
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Usda Beph on <09-09-10/1522:58>
I figured as much, just thought I'd toss it out there. And kind of on the subject, over 62 years, the word may have changed meaning:

Eight words which have completely changed their meaning over time (http://writinghood.com/style/grammar/eight-words-which-have-completely-changed-their-meaning-over-time/)

Anybody remember the OLD meaning of "gay"?
Exteremely happy and Joyous?
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Doc Chaos on <09-09-10/1530:01>
10 points for the Minotaur  :)
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Critias on <09-09-10/1531:28>
It's not like that's exactly esoteric and ancient word usage, mind.  It comes up every Christmas, at the very least.  ;)
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Turtletron on <09-09-10/1621:28>
*singing*This is the tread that never ends
Yes it goes on and on my friends*Sings*

hahaha, yup :P
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Mystic on <09-09-10/1802:15>
Yep.  It's one of those things that can be mildly annoying to those in the know, but it's hardly something to get worked up over.

As a real life Law Enforcement-type, yeah. It can be, but only when you get someone who starts talking like they are an expert on the subject. It only truly bugs me when, for example, some "armchair" gunbunny lectures me on something about the firearm I carry on duty as if I was some idiot.

Besides, sometimes it's good for the masses to be slightly ignorant on some things. Makes my job easier.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Kontact on <09-10-10/0126:03>
the thing is that its not a mis-stated term because some of the guns do use magazines.

Yeah, internal magazines, like in a pump action shotgun.

This is why common parlance uses "clip" to refer to "Dat ting what puts bullets in a shooter" and "magazine" for internal mags which need to be filled bullet to gun.

Hooray!  Learning, accomplished?
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Dead Monky on <09-10-10/1751:24>
Quote
*singing*This is the tread that never ends
Yes it goes on and on my friends*Sings*
This isn't even close.  Another board I'm on has a Free Will thread over 200 pages long with thousands of posts, all on the same endlessly circling non-debate.  It's amazing.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Turtletron on <09-10-10/2246:57>
Quote
*singing*This is the tread that never ends
Yes it goes on and on my friends*Sings*
This isn't even close.  Another board I'm on has a Free Will thread over 200 pages long with thousands of posts, all on the same endlessly circling non-debate.  It's amazing.

Hopefully the thread will implode when reaching 9999 posts ;D(talking of the 200 pages thread)
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Dead Monky on <09-10-10/2251:21>
I guess it all depends upon whether or not this board has a maximum page/post limit.  We'll see.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Critias on <09-10-10/2253:23>
You do know that you guys that are complaining about the thread never ending are the same guys bumping it to the top and contributing -- meaninglessly -- to it over and over again, right?
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Dead Monky on <09-10-10/2257:42>
Indeed.  The irony of it is hilarious.  As is the irony that you pointlessly contributed to it to tell us that.  ;D
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Critias on <09-10-10/2303:25>
Previously in the thread, I contributed quite pointedly.  I'm willing to do so, again, if the conversation comes back up.  Perhaps because of that, the constant bump-to-top accompanied by nothing more than "Ugh, I wish this thread will end!" was a little tiresome.
Title: Re: It Must be stated
Post by: Dead Monky on <09-11-10/0010:58>
Way to be all serious about it.   :P