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[SR6] Sanity check: Hacking scenarios

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penllawen

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« Reply #15 on: <10-11-19/1522:04> »
Away from books, so if 6E split Matrix AR Initiative out from regular Initiative it's a change I missed.  And I have a series of follow up questions, because that's a mess.  The default assumption is that characters are in AR most of the time.
Actually, I think youíre correct. Itís possible to read the CRB and come away thinking that meatspace initiative and AR initiative are different numbers, and augments only change the former. Iím quite sure itís not RAI but the wording isnít crystal clear.


Page 179

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Matrix Initiative

Matrix Initiative is handled as follows (note that the dice are in addition to the customary 1D6, and the maximum of 5D6 Initiative Dice applies):
ē AR Initiative: Reaction + Intuition
ē VR Initiative (Cold Sim): Intuition + Data Processing + 1D6
ē VR Initiative (Hot Sim): Intuition + Data Processing + 2D6

Page 287
Quote
When ac-tivated, each rating point of wired reflexes gives you +1 Reaction (and accompanying bonus to your Initiative Score), 1 additional Initiative Die, and 1 additional Minor Action. Wired reflexes are incompatible with augmentations that affect Reac-tion or Initiative.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #16 on: <10-11-19/1615:41> »
Phear my search skills:

Q Do Wired Reflexes 1 add +1d6 Initiative Dice even if you are using astral projecting, cold-sim VR or hot-sim VR (to a maximum of total 5d6 Initiative Dice)?
No.
This was also the edition where Aaron claimed Headjammers literally could not do what their description said they were made for, which SR6 explicitly fixed. So unfortunately an SR5 quote that was never made official doesn't suffice for SR6.
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penllawen

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« Reply #17 on: <10-11-19/1618:18> »
This was also the edition where Aaron claimed Headjammers literally could not do what their description said they were made for, which SR6 explicitly fixed. So unfortunately an SR5 quote that was never made official doesn't suffice for SR6.
Are you seriously arguing that wired reflexes should affect astral/VR initiative?

Banshee

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« Reply #18 on: <10-11-19/1747:02> »
Ok, couple of things to address but for the most part you can refer to SSDR as being right, but ...

First point, if you're hacking either with backdoor or brute force you never gain legal access of any kind.

Second, yes probe is extended, and no there is not a threshold.  Other than a set threshold it works just like any other extended test so yes the dice pool reduce for each roll for the hacker but not the opposition.  The reason for this is to allow the hacker to push their luck of they choose at the expense of diminishing returns or choose to stop anytime
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Xenon

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« Reply #19 on: <10-11-19/1819:40> »
if you're hacking either with backdoor or brute force you never gain legal access of any kind.

SR6 p. 180 Backdoor Entry
If the test is successful, you gain Admin access to the target, and it does not count as illegal Admin access (though taking illegal Matrix Actions will still increase your Overwatch Score).


Second, yes probe is extended, and no there is not a threshold.  Other than a set threshold it works just like any other extended test so yes the dice pool reduce for each roll for the hacker but not the opposition. 
Huh.... Interesting.

You sure it is not a simple test that just take 1 minute to complete (because that would make so much more sense than what you just said).

If it is resolved as an extended test then I get to reroll many many times. If just a single test end up tie or better then the probe will be successful. Any extra hits on any of the tests will act as bonus when I later take my backdoor test.

And if it is resolved as an extended test then also Matrix Search will be resolved as an extended test. Since this is not even an opposed test it will be crazy easy to always find the most obscure intel in the entire matrix (reach 10 hits on the Legwork table). Every single time.


The reason for this is to allow the hacker to push their luck of they choose at the expense of diminishing returns or choose to stop anytime.
How is it pushing their luck?

It is virtually impossible to fail getting at least one single tie on all your rolls...?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #20 on: <10-11-19/1824:21> »
Let's say you're hacking a host with Firewall 9.  18 dice are coming against you each time you probe, which is on average 6 hits, so you need 7 just to get 1 net hit.  And your OS went up by 6.

Do that however many times you like, with a smaller dice pool each time... that's pushing your luck!
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #21 on: <10-11-19/1827:09> »
Not counting as illegal Admin Access simply would mean your OS doesn't keep going up, I think. Doesn't mean you're suddenly a full-legal user.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #22 on: <10-11-19/1830:31> »
Not counting as illegal Admin Access simply would mean your OS doesn't keep going up, I think. Doesn't mean you're suddenly a full-legal user.

You still get OS from each interval of Probe, however.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #23 on: <10-11-19/1841:36> »
Yes, but that's the opposed test, not this bit:

Quote
Maintaining illegal access to anything on the
Matrix: +1 OS/round for each host where
you maintain illegal User-level access, +3
OS/round for each host where you maintain
illegal Admin-level access.

So the way I read it, a successful Backdoor Entry after a successful Probe will still give you OS from the opposed hits, but you won't be gaining OS like crazy and can take your time snooping around without Convergence. It doesn't mean you're full-legal though.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #24 on: <10-11-19/1844:51> »
Yeah.  But you can dance with convergence just from Probing a few times, so it's a damn good thing you can potentially get access w/o turn by turn OS hikes.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #25 on: <10-11-19/1846:56> »
Let's say you're hacking a host with Firewall 9.  18 dice are coming against you each time you probe, which is on average 6 hits, so you need 7 just to get 1 net hit.  And your OS went up by 6.

Do that however many times you like, with a smaller dice pool each time... that's pushing your luck!
I just need to tie. Once. That is super easy compared how hard the actual Backdoor Entry test or Edit File test will be later once you gained access to the host.

And for matrix search I just need to get a total of 10 hits to find the most obscure information there is. Say I have a pool of 16 dice or so. That give me a total dice pool of.... 136 dice. Which mean that even if I buy hits with a 1:4 ratio I will still end up with a bit more than 30 net hits.


Also look at how Matrix tests are listed, which format they have:
(Legal or Illegal) Skill + Linked Attribute vs. Opposed Test (Duration)


For example:
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Willpower + Firewall (Major)
(legal) No test (Minor)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic (4) (Major)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Encryption Rating x 2 (Major)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Data Processing + Device Rating (Major)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Data Processing + Firewall (Major)
(legal) Electronics + Logic vs. Willpower + Firewall or Firewall x 2 (Major)

Probe and Matrix search seem to follow the same pattern, just that the duration is 1 minute or 10 minutes.
(legal) Electronics + Intuition (Extended, 10 Minutes)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs Willpower + Firewall or Firewall x 2 (Extended, 1 Minute)


Compare this to "proper" extended tests:
Charisma + Magic (10 Ė targetís Essence, 1 minute) Extended test.
Magic + Intuition (5, 10 minutes) Extended test
Magic + Willpower (10, 30 minutes) Extended Test
Engineering + Logic (10, 1 hour) Extended test
Engineering + Agility (lock rating x 2, 1 combat round) Extended test.
Biotech + Logic (10, 1 minute) Extended test


I refuse to think this is intended :-)



Not counting as illegal Admin Access simply would mean your OS doesn't keep going up, I think. Doesn't mean you're suddenly a full-legal user.
Yeah. I think when it says it does not count as illegal admin access that they are talking about this:

SR6 p. 176 Overwatch Score and convergence
Maintaining illegal access to anything on the Matrix: +1 OS/round for each host where you maintain illegal User-level access, +3 OS/round for each host where you maintain illegal Admin-level access


Not counting as illegal Admin Access simply would mean your OS doesn't keep going up, I think. Doesn't mean you're suddenly a full-legal user.

You still get OS from each interval of Probe, however.
That is why you reboot between your probing "extended" test and your backdoor entry test.....



You keep ninja adding more posts while I am editing. Fuck it. I'll just post now. :D

Banshee

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« Reply #26 on: <10-11-19/1850:53> »
Yes like MC says... not counting as illegal access (for OS purposes) is not the same as legal access ..  minor point but still an important one

And as SSDR says when your dice pool is dropping every roll but the opposition isn't then your chance of success is dropping while also increasing your OS score and chance of glitching all in exchange for more successes to use on the future backdoor attempt... that's pushing your luck
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Xenon

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« Reply #27 on: <10-11-19/1852:01> »
Fair enough.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #28 on: <10-11-19/1857:46> »
Let's say you're hacking a host with Firewall 9.  18 dice are coming against you each time you probe, which is on average 6 hits, so you need 7 just to get 1 net hit.  And your OS went up by 6.

Do that however many times you like, with a smaller dice pool each time... that's pushing your luck!
I just need to tie. Once. That is super easy compared how hard the actual Backdoor Entry test or Edit File test will be later once you gained access to the host.

And for matrix search I just need to get a total of 10 hits to find the most obscure information there is. Say I have a pool of 16 dice or so. That give me a total dice pool of.... 136 dice. Which mean that even if I buy hits with a 1:4 ratio I will still end up with a bit more than 30 net hits.

I feel like we're not talking about the same thing.  On Probe, your net hits are represented as a dice pool bonus to a Back Door test which may occur at some point a few hours hence.  If you tie, ok you're successful sure but your bonus is a +0 dice.  Not too helpful.

And I have no idea what you're talking about with Matrix Perception.  I can't imagine how 16 dice are turning into 136 dice, nor how Matrix Perception factors into Probe in the first place.


Quote
Also look at how Matrix tests are listed, which format they have:
(Legal or Illegal) Skill + Linked Attribute vs. Opposed Test (Duration)


For example:
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Willpower + Firewall (Major)
(legal) No test (Minor)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic (4) (Major)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Encryption Rating x 2 (Major)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Data Processing + Device Rating (Major)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Data Processing + Firewall (Major)
(legal) Electronics + Logic vs. Willpower + Firewall or Firewall x 2 (Major)

Probe and Matrix search seem to follow the same pattern, just that the duration is 1 minute or 10 minutes.
(legal) Electronics + Intuition (Extended, 10 Minutes)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs Willpower + Firewall or Firewall x 2 (Extended, 1 Minute)


Compare this to "proper" extended tests:
Charisma + Magic (10 Ė targetís Essence, 1 minute) Extended test.
Magic + Intuition (5, 10 minutes) Extended test
Magic + Willpower (10, 30 minutes) Extended Test
Engineering + Logic (10, 1 hour) Extended test
Engineering + Agility (lock rating x 2, 1 combat round) Extended test.
Biotech + Logic (10, 1 minute) Extended test


I refuse to think this is intended :-)

You don't have to.  But the guy who literally wrote the rule just said as much.

Quote
You still get OS from each interval of Probe, however.
That is why you reboot between your probing "extended" test and your backdoor entry test.....

That's actually a fair point.  I hadn't noticed that Probe doesn't say your benefit goes away if you reboot.  All the more reason then for a nice big dice pool to keep you from racking up a ridiculous number of net hits.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #29 on: <10-11-19/1911:09> »
On Probe, your net hits are represented as a dice pool bonus to a Back Door test which may occur at some point a few hours hence.
The main point of the probe action is to successfully find an exploit to begin with. This is what takes time. And to be successful you only need a tie.

I agree that additional net hits will act as bonus dice on your backdoor entry test later (which might be useful) and since the test is resolved as an extended test you might as well keep rolling as long as you don't hit 40 OS.



And I have no idea what you're talking about with Matrix Perception.  I can't imagine how 16 dice are turning into 136 dice, nor how Matrix Perception factors into Probe in the first place.
There are only two actions in the entire book that have the format (Extended, x Minutes)

One action is Probe
The other is Matrix Search (not Matrix Perception).

Matrix Search have nothing to do with gaining illegal access to a host, but if the Probe action is really resolved as an Extended Test then so is Matrix Search action.

Matrix Search is not opposed. You just count net hits and compare it to the Legwork table on p. 50

If I have a dice pool of 13 dice then I will in practice have a dice pool of... 91 dice

First attempt 13 dice
Second attempt 12 dice
11
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1

Since this is a legal action there is no risk of convergence so I might as well always roll 13 times (or 91 dice) when using matrix search.

Buying hits on 91 dice give me little more than 20 hits. Twice as much as I need to find deep secrets others actively try to hide and other rare knowledge only available to a select few. I will always get 10 hits. Every Single. Time.
« Last Edit: <10-11-19/1913:36> by Xenon »