[ZeroSum]

The rules for Toxin Resistance Tests are a little ambiguous. Specifically, what protective gear ratings are you allowed to add to your dice pool?

A Toxin Resistance test (Body + Willpower + the rating of any appropriate protective gear/systems) is used to reduce the damage.

So if Josie the Gun Adept is exposed to CS/Tear Gas, which is both a contact and an inhalation toxin, does she get to add both her Rating 6 Respirator and her Rating 6 Chemical Protection, for a total of 12 additional dice? It sure seems like that would be the case by the strict reading of the rule.

It also seems that any gear that provides immunity to toxins are somewhat useless, because all inhalation vector toxins are also contact toxins. While a gasmask provides immunity to inhalation, the only thing that provides immunity to contact is a full hazmat suit which already comes with an air supply. Am I missing something?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The rules for Toxin Resistance Tests are a little ambiguous. Specifically, what protective gear ratings are you allowed to add to your dice pool?

A Toxin Resistance test (Body + Willpower + the rating of any appropriate protective gear/systems) is used to reduce the damage.

So if Josie the Gun Adept is exposed to CS/Tear Gas, which is both a contact and an inhalation toxin, does she get to add both her Rating 6 Respirator and her Rating 6 Chemical Protection, for a total of 12 additional dice? It sure seems like that would be the case by the strict reading of the rule.

I don't see any reason why you wouldn't add both if both are relevant and you have both.

It also seems that any gear that provides immunity to inhalation toxins are somewhat useless, because all inhalation vector toxins are also contact toxins. While a gasmask provides immunity to inhalation, the only thing that provides immunity to contact is a full hazmat suit which already comes with an air supply. Am I missing something?

First of all, I edited your quote to reflect what I'm guessing you meant to ask.  And am responding to the edited question.

Being immune to inhalation toxins via gas mask, or better yet internal air tank cyberware, is eminently less obvious than wearing a hazmat suit.  You can't go anywhere with chem-seal protection without attracting notice.  Unless of course EVERYONE is wearing a hazmat suit there, and then in that case it makes doubly good sense to wear one yourself...

[ZeroSum]

First of all, I edited your quote to reflect what I'm guessing you meant to ask.  And am responding to the edited question.

Being immune to inhalation toxins via gas mask, or better yet internal air tank cyberware, is eminently less obvious than wearing a hazmat suit.  You can't go anywhere with chem-seal protection without attracting notice.  Unless of course EVERYONE is wearing a hazmat suit there, and then in that case it makes doubly good sense to wear one yourself...

Good edit, I did indeed mean gas masks and internal air tanks. Here's the rub, though; all toxins except nausea gas are contact AND inhalation vectors. Being immune to one does not make you immune to the other, so against CS/Tear Gas a gasmask would provide immunity to the inhalation vector but you would still have to take a test against the contact vector. Right?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Somehow I never noticed that CS was given a contact vector. Even in 5e.  And it's not incorrect from an "in reality" point of view... an anyone who's gone through Chem Warfare training knows!

However it IS fundamentally different than "real" contact agents like nerve gas and so on in that it doesn't go through the skin; it only irritates exposed mucous membranes.  In other words.. contact only "counts" for eyes/nose/mouth. The upcoming combat expansion splatbook could always end up saying otherwise, but I don't think there's a whole lot of need to create a new sub-division of contact vector that's "eyes/nose/mouth contact only".  I'd say it's completely within the bounds of reason to look at the entry for CS and adjudicate that CS's contact vector is foiled in the specific case of a gas mask.

[Kirklins]

So I've noticed the general rule is that protective devices don't stack unless specified. I'm not sure if this is poorly phrased for "appropriate to the vector" or poorly phrased for "all applicable". GM call, I'll be going with appropriate to vector.

In this specific case I have two vectors for the same effect. So I'll use: In a defense against a multivector attack determine the best defense for each vector then use the lowest for its effect. I already can see this gets tricky if you have a dice pool change and a DR change.

Since SSDR was posting while I wrote this, an addendum. in my judgment a mask would protect the face while an inhaler would not. (and an inhaler AND goggles would, because I know a little about CS.) GM call, always, unless/until official rulings are made.

[ZeroSum]

Somehow I never noticed that CS was given a contact vector. Even in 5e.  And it's not incorrect from an "in reality" point of view... an anyone who's gone through Chem Warfare training knows!

However it IS fundamentally different than "real" contact agents like nerve gas and so on in that it doesn't go through the skin; it only irritates exposed mucous membranes.  In other words.. contact only "counts" for eyes/nose/mouth. The upcoming combat expansion splatbook could always end up saying otherwise, but I don't think there's a whole lot of need to create a new sub-division of contact vector that's "eyes/nose/mouth contact only".  I'd say it's completely within the bounds of reason to look at the entry for CS and adjudicate that CS's contact vector is foiled in the specific case of a gas mask.

I would be hesitant to have per-toxin specific rules, because you would then need to evaluate Neuro-stun, Pepper Punch, and Seven-7 too. I wonder if a more elegant solution would be to halve the power of the toxin if it has multiple vectors and you have immunity to one of them, as a sort of universal approach to multi-vector toxins.

Also, on CS; "mucus membranes" are also affected by this gas, and as someone who has gone through tear gas and pepper spray training, your eyes, nose, and mouth aren't the only... orifices... that can be irritated. Just saying.

So I've noticed the general rule is that protective devices don't stack unless specified. I'm not sure if this is poorly phrased for "appropriate to the vector" or poorly phrased for "all applicable". GM call, I'll be going with appropriate to vector.

In this specific case I have two vectors for the same effect. So I'll use: In a defense against a multivector attack determine the best defense for each vector then use the lowest for its effect. I already can see this gets tricky if you have a dice pool change and a DR change.

Since SSDR was posting while I wrote this, an addendum. in my judgment a mask would protect the face while an inhaler would not. (and an inhaler AND goggles would, because I know a little about CS.) GM call, always, unless/until official rulings are made.

Yeah, this is going to be another one of those GM call situations. Also, aside from armor, is there any other reference to protective gear not stacking? While it is a precedent for single-vector attacks (i.e. "high-speed lead poisoning"), I feel like multi-vector attacks are distinct enough that a precedent for the former shouldn't be used for the other.

In your scenario, if a character has invested in both chemical protection and a respirator, should he not get the benefit of both? Otherwise, you're penalizing that character compared to someone who is ONLY wearing a respirator, and who would get the same benefit. That just doesn't seem fair to me.

I'll check the errata thread to see if this has already been brought up, because the wording on "the rating of any appropriate protective gear/systems)" is definitely ambiguous. Although... It does say "systems", plural; but then "rating" is singular. Ah, good old rules clarity...

[Michael Chandra]

If we're going to ignore raw for a bit (warning: I will), I would argue the least protected vector should count OR an average (otherwise a respirator would be better than a mask) and that some toxins indeed cannot easily permeate clothing. Unless the description gives support to defying your clothing, I'd go with exposed skin only so a full facial covering would be plenty unless you're fighting in a bikini or kilt without stockings. But that is spoken as a GM, so no guarantees for if you're facing a strict gm.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Heh.  Yes, basically anything "wet" is potentially vulnerable, yes.

However, less so for Tear Gas than with CS.. which SR are equating as being the same thing when they're only "kind of" the same thing

These kinds of points are below the granularity SR has tried to remain above, particularly in this edition.  Odds are slim to none that "contact vector" will get any more granularity in the rules in the CRB... relying on GM's judgement rather than codifying everything is always a concern in RPGs and 6we does it moreso than many.  Particularly moreso than 4e/5e.  All that said:  I have no idea what the combat book may do on this topic, though.

[ZeroSum]

If we're going to ignore raw for a bit (warning: I will), I would argue the least protected vector should count OR an average (otherwise a respirator would be better than a mask) and that some toxins indeed cannot easily permeate clothing. Unless the description gives support to defying your clothing, I'd go with exposed skin only so a full facial covering would be plenty unless you're fighting in a bikini or kilt without stockings. But that is spoken as a GM, so no guarantees for if you're facing a strict gm.

For sure, unless official clarification comes out each table will have to deal with this themselves. Incidentally, I ran a search on these boards and it seems this has carried over from edition to edition, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that it's still a thing. I do wish Catalyst would take notes from previous editions and clarify these types of issues in the next editions, but alas, here we are.

Heh.  Yes, basically anything "wet" is potentially vulnerable, yes.

However, less so for Tear Gas than with CS.. which SR are equating as being the same thing when they're only "kind of" the same thing

These kinds of points are below the granularity SR has tried to remain above, particularly in this edition.  Odds are slim to none that "contact vector" will get any more granularity in the rules in the CRB... relying on GM's judgement rather than codifying everything is always a concern in RPGs and 6we does it moreso than many.  Particularly moreso than 4e/5e.  All that said:  I have no idea what the combat book may do on this topic, though.

Indeed. And yes, CS and tear gas are "technically" different. Concentration of either will make for a bad day, though, so I'm glad to see that the CRB does actually have rules for concentration.

And while I do get that SR6 is going for simplification, and while I am OK with this, I feel like Catalyst should commit wholly and try to eliminate these kinds of edge cases. Presumably, as this seems to have simply carried over from last edition, I suspect this is yet another "change blindness" issue. What would be the best way to bring this to the attention of CGL, in your opinions?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

What would be the best way to bring this to the attention of CGL, in your opinions?

Well, there is a subforum for proposing Errata to books and/or asking for FAQ style questions.  Of course with the 6we CRB being both new and, ahem, having "so many opportunities for improvement", out of convenience's sake everything relating to the CRB is for now being corralled to a single thread.  That'd be a great place to post suggestions like "you should clarify whether you use best available rating, or ALL available and relevant gear?"

[ZeroSum]

What would be the best way to bring this to the attention of CGL, in your opinions?

Well, there is a subforum for proposing Errata to books and/or asking for FAQ style questions.  Of course with the 6we CRB being both new and, ahem, having "so many opportunities for improvement", out of convenience's sake everything relating to the CRB is for now being corralled to a single thread.  That'd be a great place to post suggestions like "you should clarify whether you use best available rating, or ALL available and relevant gear?"

Thanks! Posting there now.

[Kirklins]

Also, aside from armor, is there any other reference to protective gear not stacking?

I thought I saw it, but all I'm finding are obvious for other reasons - like the fact you can't use a gas mask and a respirator at the same time. I'm still uncomfortable with respirator 3 and tracheal filter 3 giving the player an effective 6 against inhalation toxins, but I could possibly be persuaded it's an armor+shield situation.

In your scenario, if a character has invested in both chemical protection and a respirator, should he not get the benefit of both? Otherwise, you're penalizing that character compared to someone who is ONLY wearing a respirator, and who would get the same benefit. That just doesn't seem fair to me.

Um, Chemical Protection only protects against contact. A respirator only applies against inhalation. If you have protection against contact but you're breathing without filter, I'm going to suggest you're vulnerable to inhaled toxins regardless of the suit.

[ZeroSum]

Also, aside from armor, is there any other reference to protective gear not stacking?

I thought I saw it, but all I'm finding are obvious for other reasons - like the fact you can't use a gas mask and a respirator at the same time. I'm still uncomfortable with respirator 3 and tracheal filter 3 giving the player an effective 6 against inhalation toxins, but I could possibly be persuaded it's an armor+shield situation.

In your scenario, if a character has invested in both chemical protection and a respirator, should he not get the benefit of both? Otherwise, you're penalizing that character compared to someone who is ONLY wearing a respirator, and who would get the same benefit. That just doesn't seem fair to me.

Um, Chemical Protection only protects against contact. A respirator only applies against inhalation. If you have protection against contact but you're breathing without filter, I'm going to suggest you're vulnerable to inhaled toxins regardless of the suit.

My point exactly; the wording is too ambiguous to make a clear call. My example was reversed, in that a gasmask provides immunity to inhalation, but most gas attacks (other than nausea) have contact as a vector as well. So having immunity against one vector doesn't really do anything if the toxin has multiple vectors, RAW, but a Respirator 6 does because the Toxin Resistance Test just says "+ the rating of any protective gear/systems".

Given that there are a number of opinions on how this should be handled equal to the number of participants, I think it might be best to just shelve the discussion here. I've posted in the feedback thread, so maybe we'll get an official answer at some point. Until such time, each table will have to figure out how to deal with this.

If nothing else, this is the kind of thing I'd hope would be addressed by the SRM FAQ once the switch to SR6 is made.

[ZeroSum]

Follow-up questions;
1. If a toxin has an effect that causes damage, is this damage resisted with body as normal?

Page 121, Effect states that

Damage from toxins is treated just like just like any other injury.

Presumably, then, you get a Toxin Resistance Test to reduce the Power of a Toxin, and a Damage Resistance Test (aka a soak roll) to resist the actual damage inflicted. Am I reading that right?

Let's say both that both Thor the Troll (Body 8, Willpower 4, and a Rating 6 Toxin Extractor) and Harry the Human (Body 3, Willpower 3) are each hit with a dose of Narcoject (Power 15, Effect is Stun Damage).

If my reading is right, Thor would roll 12 dice, while Harry would roll 6 dice. Because Thor had a Toxin Extractor that reduces the threshold of a Toxin Resistance test, he would only need to resist a Power of 9 instead of 15.

Thor gets lucky and rolls 5 hits, effectively reducing the Power to 4 (15 - R6 Toxin Extractor - 5 hits), while Harry only rolls 1 hit and has to deal with a power of 15.

Thor then rolls Body to resist the 4 Stun Damage and scores 4 hits, reducing the power to 0; he takes no damage at all, and shakes off the dart used to deliver the toxin while looking around for his attacker.

Harry on the other hand fails to score any hits, and suffers 14 Stun Damage. This fills his Stun Condition Monitor of 10, and puts him at 4 physical damage. He is out cold.

2. The Toxin Extractor "subtracts it's rating from from the threshold of Toxin Resistance Tests", but page 121 makes no mention of any threshold. Is reducing Power by the rating an appropriate approach, or have I missed something?

3. Narcoject has a Duration of "(6 - Body) hours, minimum 1 hour"; what is the purpose of listing this? As far as I can tell, you do not get multiple Toxin Resistance Tests, so the Power suffered is not going to be further reduced.

In out above examples, Thor would be entirely unaffected, while Harry would be sleeping off the Stun Damage for the next several hours. Which brings me to...

4. Is there a rule for what it takes to wake up an unconscious character?

Let's say Harry rolls 4 hits on his Natural Healing test; one hour after being dosed by Narcoject he removes 4 boxes of Stun Dave from his Condition Monitor. Is this enough to wake him up, or does he have to wait until the Duration of the Toxin wears off (6-3=3 hours in this case).

[Michael Chandra]

It says damage, not possible damage, so I'd say the Resistance test already handled your damage reduction. I understand a second test would be welcome, but toxins are already expensive as hell (a grenade requires 20 doses, so you need special dart weapons for less expensive hits and that is still costly).

As for awakening: You're unconscious when either track is full. This implies that if both have boxes left, you awake, which is supported by the example on p120.

Duration is described on p121: It's how long the dose counts for Concentration rules. Concentration rules are on p122, and talk about extra Power when exposed to multiple doses. That duration of Narcoject makes you more vulnerable to a second hit by it, within that timeframe.