Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: mik212 on <04-21-22/2058:40>
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Spoilers for Third Parallel
So Third Parallel did a thing I didn't think was ever going to happen. Made Magic users plausibly have access to Technomancer-like matrix powers. One question about the new metamagic (Machine Mind pg. 159) would be some clarification on the programs they can use. The description they could emulate matrix programs and buy them like a technomancer. Technomancers can't use Programs to my knowledge and use complex forms instead. Does that mean they buy programs at the same karma cost as Complex Forms and run them on their new magic Living Persona? Was the description supposed to say complex forms instead? Can agents be emulated like this?
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I don't have access to that particular book yet but Technomancers can in fact use programs through the Emulate Complex Form, which is a Complex Form that reproduces a specific program while sustained. So, as a Technomancer you spend 5 Karma per program you want to be able to emulate. If it says you emulate programs like a technomancer, I would reckon you just get a magical version of the Emulate Complex Form.
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Can agents be emulated like this?
It seem as if the intent behind Emulate (Program) is to emulate Basic Utility Programs and Hacking Programs (and even Autosofts for Technomancers that have necessary echo's to enable them to share autosofts and slave drones to their living persona).
Not Agent programs (nor Pilot programs).
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Unless I have missed it, 6E does not have rules for Agents (yet) anyway. So no way to emulate something that's not in the game yet.
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Unless I have missed it, 6E does not have rules for Agents (yet) anyway. So no way to emulate something that's not in the game yet.
True that.
I believe 6th edition also does not (yet) have an Echo (or data stream) allowing you to share autosofts (emulating a RCC).
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So Third Parallel did a thing I didn't think was ever going to happen. Made Magic users plausibly have access to Technomancer-like matrix powers. One question about the new metamagic (Machine Mind pg. 159) would be some clarification on the programs they can use. The description they could emulate matrix programs and buy them like a technomancer. Technomancers can't use Programs to my knowledge and use complex forms instead. Does that mean they buy programs at the same karma cost as Complex Forms and run them on their new magic Living Persona? Was the description supposed to say complex forms instead? Can agents be emulated like this?
Note that The Refugee has these powers. They're not described in any way other than being a unique thing for this one NPC. Your GM can approve whatever your GM would like to approve, but rules for NPCs don't automatically mean they're also rules available to PCs.
And when it comes to The Refugee, no these powers do not allow it to learn (or use) complex forms.
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Spoilers for Third Parallel would have been appreciated
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Thanks for the clarification everyone. I tend to focus more on the magic side and never really paid much attention to Technomancers. Still kinda threw me for a loop that it was made possible for a magic user to mess with the matrix directly like that but I can appreciate the concept. Even if not available to PC's it's still proof it's possible put into an official book.
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Spoilers for Third Parallel would have been appreciated
Sorry. I forgot. It was only that one character who is not irrelevant but also not central or a focal point to the plot of the book.
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Thanks for the clarification everyone. I tend to focus more on the magic side and never really paid much attention to Technomancers. Still kinda threw me for a loop that it was made possible for a magic user to mess with the matrix directly like that but I can appreciate the concept. Even if not available to PC's it's still proof it's possible put into an official book.
You weren't the only one thrown for a loop!
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Very mixed feelings here TBH. Magic users already have such a huge toolbox, and now there´s technomancy as well? Glad to hear that it supposed to be a special NPC quality...
However, maybe this also opens up the door for Technomancers getting more spell-like, logic-defying powers instead of just "hacking, but a bit different" ???
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Very mixed feelings here TBH. Magic users already have such a huge toolbox, and now there´s technomancy as well? Glad to hear that it supposed to be a special NPC quality...
However, maybe this also opens up the door for Technomancers getting more spell-like, logic-defying powers instead of just "hacking, but a bit different" ???
Despite what it looks like at first glance, this metamagic is NOT stealing very much thunder, even if a PC had it. Most notably, it's still not giving a Resonance attribute nor giving any Resonance based powers. The ability to log into the matrix in a deviceless manner kind of resembles having a Living Persona, but it's still not a Living Persona. Pretty much all that's happening is you pay for a cyberdeck+commlink (you don't even get cyberjack functionality) with karma and a metamagic opportunity pick rather than nuyen and essence. Of course even with this metamagic you're useless as a hacker w/o also having cracking and electronics skills, so spread that karma even thinner, still.
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Very mixed feelings here TBH. Magic users already have such a huge toolbox, and now there´s technomancy as well? Glad to hear that it supposed to be a special NPC quality...
However, maybe this also opens up the door for Technomancers getting more spell-like, logic-defying powers instead of just "hacking, but a bit different" ???
Despite what it looks like at first glance, this metamagic is NOT stealing very much thunder, even if a PC had it. Most notably, it's still not giving a Resonance attribute nor giving any Resonance based powers. The ability to log into the matrix in a deviceless manner kind of resembles having a Living Persona, but it's still not a Living Persona. Pretty much all that's happening is you pay for a cyberdeck+commlink (you don't even get cyberjack functionality) with karma and a metamagic opportunity pick rather than nuyen and essence. Of course even with this metamagic you're useless as a hacker w/o also having cracking and electronics skills, so spread that karma even thinner, still.
This is sounding more and more like.... the VERY bad idea it was. Not to mention one more eroding of the "pillars of Shadowrun" (Magic and tech divide)
Or, more to the point: This is what I call "feeding the Snowflakes".
Because they have now put it in a book, this is will now be held up as "proof" that mages can be technos. (and a few will say that mages SHOULD be technos!!!). And if you think I am over blowing this, or that I am wrong... Well, I hope I am, but sadly history says I am not.
This doesn't bode well.
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Not to mention that Mages already have an array of spells which could (or dare I say, should) have been Complex Forms: Overclock, Analyze Device, Disrupt, Ectomagic Pulse, Chaff...
Can´t wait for the new 5-or-so actual Complex Forms in the Matrix supplement: "Make a Computer+Resonance Roll against the device and get like, I dunno, some insight into it? Yeah, somewhat like Matrix Perception. But with Fading (:"
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Regardless of how thin the Karma gets spread it still gives Awakened a chance to be viable hackers without harming their essence with a CyberJack. Machine mind gives them pretty much all wireless capability non augmentation gear could AND Data Processing and Firewall Attributes based of their mental stats instead of a piece of gear. They cant run a chord to directly link with other stuff but it gives them more decent Data Processing and Fire Wall attributes then running a deck with a commlink ever could. The downsides I can see is the Karma cost, limit to programs that can be run, inability to shuffle matrix attributes and the lack of a Data cable. Assuming of course they can choose to turn this power "off" like they can with a deck and commlink.
All in all. Still very surprised it happened given how Resonance and Magic are sort of treated as parallel but not compatible at all. But yeah, I agree PCs probably shouldnt have access to this in most cases.
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Regardless of how thin the Karma gets spread it still gives Awakened a chance to be viable hackers without harming their essence with a CyberJack.
Cyberjack is not mandatory and doesn't really even add any value as long as you are hacking via AR and as long as you are not attacked.
A magician (that already have a focus in Logic anyway) can already also be a hacker by using a regular mundane cyberdeck (to enable attack and sleaze actions and matrix edge actions) + commlink (for basic firewall and data processing) + trodes (for DNI if they want to go VR).
0 Essence.
Karma is still needed for Electronics skill and Cracking skill.
Rest is just resources (and if you don't care about matrix AR you don't even need to invest that much resources).
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Commlinks dont have great stats for Data Processing and Firewall. This has the chance of giving decent stats as long as the Awakened has decent mental stats
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If that is your concern I think it would make more sense to instead use suggested commlink ratings from this source (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DYgYXlKQ5XUG_3R4aDbaTTcm5XeYfdjf6Kqlop1J72k).
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If that is your concern I think it would make more sense to instead use suggested commlink ratings from this source (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DYgYXlKQ5XUG_3R4aDbaTTcm5XeYfdjf6Kqlop1J72k).
Yes. Those are much better. Far more reasonable imo. So this was the writer who did the matrix section in the Core Book?
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If that is your concern I think it would make more sense to instead use suggested commlink ratings from this source (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DYgYXlKQ5XUG_3R4aDbaTTcm5XeYfdjf6Kqlop1J72k).
Yes. Those are much better. Far more reasonable imo. So this was the writer who did the matrix section in the Core Book?
Yes, that was me ... the higher commlink attributes are not necessary but several people thought they should be higher so if that's the case the guide was my suggestion
Also FYI .. I consider the Refugee and it's magical matrix abilities to be an abomination that will never see the light of day in any game I run or material I write.
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Also FYI .. I consider the Refugee and it's magical matrix abilities to be an abomination that will never see the light of day in any game I run or material I write.
Totally fair. Thanks for writing the alt rules.