[RHat]

I don't agree with the always part, but I'll point out that the other parts of the blend bring in other elements of a counter-balance - the limitations on conduct and how you use spirits would have an impact; for example, a character who tended to throw spirits into the line of fire as bullet sponges would find themselves greatly disliked by spirits, and may well face Edge against summoning SOONER, but a character who treats spirits in a different and far more respectful manner might find they don't face it at all.

At least, that's my approach, and it does what I'm looking for (balances spirits and makes how you interact with your spirits MATTER).  Others are looking for a simple, hard, and fast rule that sufficiently balances things out; Edge against all oversummoning does what they're looking for.

Beaumis is entirely correct that it is simply too heavy-handed.

If the player knows that they may be facing the Edge use anyway, they'll be more likely to do those actions that could be considered 'abusing' the spirit. After all, why bother having the character "treat it well" if they're already resisting with Edge?

The player wouldn't be facing that if they hadn't treated spirits poorly in the first place.  This is a matter of consequences more than anything else.

You miss the entire point. Since any ruling of that nature should be put out there plainly at the start of the game, if the player knows he'll be facing that Edge use from the outset, he may not see as much point in not "treating them poorly".

He'll be more likely to have the following attitude:
"Well, since they'll be resisting with Edge anyway, it doesn't matter how my character 'treats them'. Might as well treat 'em like tools."

...  Obviously springing this on a player without any warning so they can play their character accordingly is a Bad Thing.  That's in the "Dick Move, Do Not Do This" pile and as such isn't relevant to the argument.  I am assuming, and you should be assuming as well, that everyone at the table is fully aware of the functioning of these things before anything relevant to them occurs - which does mean that the player gets a pass for spirit mistreatment occurring before the ruling is in place.

But, given that he needs to deal with multiple rules errors with spirits ANYWAYS, this is the right time to introduce things like that as well.

If the player knows the rule is in place at the outset, then he has a decision between having to deal with substantially less Drain and chance of failure while summoning, or treating his spirits as tools.  He certainly could choose the former, but it's not a case of "they're gonna use it anyways", because they're only using it due to his treatment of spirits (in combination with the Force of the spirit).

[All4BigGuns]

Again you miss the point entirely.

It comes down to this. Why bother treating the spirits well, if there's a good chance they'll resist you with Edge anyway? This is what may just be going through the player's mind.

[RHat]

Because there isn't a "good chance they'll resist with Edge anyway".

[All4BigGuns]

Because there isn't a "good chance they'll resist with Edge anyway".

In your mind. Not necessarily the mind of the hypothetical player in question.

[Fenix]

Because there isn't a "good chance they'll resist with Edge anyway".

In your mind. Not necessarily the mind of the hypothetical player in question.

I think what he's trying to say is that a spirit may choose to use edge if the player has mistreated spirits repeatedly in the past (such as using them as meat shields regularly for several sessions). Yes the player should be fully aware that this is a possible consequence, but I don't see a problem in having one use edge once in a blue moon just to remind the mage to play nice

Now if a GM were to have spirits spend edge regularly, that's entirely a dick move that many players (myself included) would just accept it as the norm and not see a reason as to why they should be respectful to spirits.

It could prove for a fun RP experience for my player as well. His character feels that spirits should be used as tools to do his bidding, it'll be fun to try to influence him otherwise through play

[All4BigGuns]

With how subjective the "mistreating one's spirits" is, it should not only not be all that common but also come with warnings--to the player, not the character--that certain actions may precipitate such starting as they're brought up, because what the GM considers "mistreating them" may be well before the proverbial line to the player.

[Michael Chandra]

The GM should always state upfront they make Spirits use Edge against Oversummoning and if summoned after someone is abusive. Players should be aware of consequences in advance here.

[RHat]

Because there isn't a "good chance they'll resist with Edge anyway".

In your mind. Not necessarily the mind of the hypothetical player in question.

Inaccurate.  Let's look at the simplest way to do this - the first time a player summons a spirit, it's "Edge on oversummoning, and oversummoning only"; if he has Magic 6 there is no chance it will resist with Edge.  The player's actions may transparently influence that mark in either direction - the sorts of things that are considered to be abusive or disrespectful would need to be outlined off the top, as would the reverse.  So, no, the player cannot in fact reasonably think that because he's positing something that he knows to be false.

Michael:  Would you disagree with the idea that if abuse and disrespect can move the "resist-with-Edge" barrier to lower Force, then respectful and kind treatment should do the reverse?

With how subjective the "mistreating one's spirits" is, it should not only not be all that common but also come with warnings--to the player, not the character--that certain actions may precipitate such starting as they're brought up, because what the GM considers "mistreating them" may be well before the proverbial line to the player.

And that's why you outline it off the top.  There has to be a mutual understanding of what will be considered to be negative or positive.  How common it is is completely up to the player - a player frequently using spirits as meat shields doesn't make using spirits as meat shields fine and dandy.

[All4BigGuns]

You can't think of every possible situation "right off the top", hence the need for warnings. There are a few that can be gone over, but not all.

The "Always Edge on 'Over Summoning'" just needs to die in a fire. The Edge use needs to be restricted to if the 'mistreatment' has become habitual and egregious despite multiple warnings both in character and out.

But then, Edge use by NPCs needs to be extremely uncommon anyway. It devalues it's use by the PCs if the NPCs are using it too much.

[Fenix]

I've got some other rules to hammer out next (Matrix and rigging, I'm looking at you!) but I'll definitely have to discuss some of these clarifications/implications before we begin our next session next Sunday. Hopefully I can get away with just making the spirits get pissy with the mage if he mistreats them, but I'll make sure he's aware of what might happen if he abuses them before any edge is expended towards him.

Idk how I feel about edge on oversummoning. Right now I like the thought that spirits who are "bigger" than they are are better at resisting and finding creative ways to throw a wrench in the mage's plans (but still carry them out, of course). Perhaps similar to Charizard from the original Pokemon series (hopefully I don't leave too many in the dust on that reference)

[RHat]

You can't think of every possible situation "right off the top", hence the need for warnings. There are a few that can be gone over, but not all.

The "Always Edge on 'Over Summoning'" just needs to die in a fire.

Sure, but you put out the guidelines - it leaves a lot less room for interpretations, and some "are you sure"s are never a bad thing in these cases.

Still, the "Always Edge on Oversummoning" thing exists around here for a reason - very powerful spirits need a balancing element that their resistance rolls as normal don't sufficiently provide.

[All4BigGuns]

Still, the "Always Edge on Oversummoning" thing exists around here for a reason - very powerful spirits need a balancing element that their resistance rolls as normal don't sufficiently provide.

It's quite sufficient if the character isn't a munchkin monstrosity, IMO.

[RHat]

Still, the "Always Edge on Oversummoning" thing exists around here for a reason - very powerful spirits need a balancing element that their resistance rolls as normal don't sufficiently provide.

It's quite sufficient if the character isn't a munchkin monstrosity, IMO.

You don't have to have a power built character for the problems to set in. Shaman/Face with Summoning 6, Charisma 8, Willpower 4, Magic 6 with a Mentor Spirit, Specialization, or weak Focus adding 2 dice will easily get a service from, say, a Force 9 spirit.  They'll generally take a bit of damage, but it's not gonna be catastrophic - and they can spend Edge on the Drain Resistance if they really need to.  That means DV+Net Hits+AP must be 18 or higher to effect then, and even then they get up to 9 auto hits to soak, on top of a further 7-13 dice to soak.  Their basic ranged attack is DV18 -9AP, with a dice pool of 16-21.

That does NOT take a "munchkin monstrosity".

[All4BigGuns]

You don't have to have a power built character for the problems to set in. Shaman/Face with Summoning 6, Charisma 8, Willpower 4, Magic 6 with a Mentor Spirit, Specialization, or weak Focus adding 2 dice will easily get a service from, say, a Force 9 spirit.  They'll generally take a bit of damage, but it's not gonna be catastrophic - and they can spend Edge on the Drain Resistance if they really need to.  That means DV+Net Hits+AP must be 18 or higher to effect then, and even then they get up to 9 auto hits to soak, on top of a further 7-13 dice to soak.  Their basic ranged attack is DV18 -9AP, with a dice pool of 16-21.

Yes it does, as evidenced by your example stats there which is a "power built character".

[Dracain]

You don't have to have a power built character for the problems to set in. Shaman/Face with Summoning 6, Charisma 8, Willpower 4, Magic 6 with a Mentor Spirit, Specialization, or weak Focus adding 2 dice will easily get a service from, say, a Force 9 spirit.  They'll generally take a bit of damage, but it's not gonna be catastrophic - and they can spend Edge on the Drain Resistance if they really need to.  That means DV+Net Hits+AP must be 18 or higher to effect then, and even then they get up to 9 auto hits to soak, on top of a further 7-13 dice to soak.  Their basic ranged attack is DV18 -9AP, with a dice pool of 16-21.

Yes it does, as evidenced by your example stats there which is a "power built character".

I don't think that is much of a "power built character".  It is a hybrid with less than optimal stats and equipment for summoning specialists, or even for many pure mage builds.  It would be easy to build a summoning specialist who could summon a more powerful spirit, or at the very least a force 9 with more services, and that isn't even getting into binding.  I'm a strong proponent of making a system as mechanically balanced as possible before introducing RP elements into it, so I feel the "edge on oversummon" rule is quite effective in introducing a risk vs rewards element, given the extreme power of a high force spirit. 

I think the treatment of spirits starting out neutral, and giving bonuses or penalties based on interactions with spirits brings the RP into the mechanics, which makes another balancing element that encourages RP, and prevents overabuse of spirits, to be quite effective to balance out everything both in the realms of the crunch and the fluff.