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Specalized vs. flexable characters

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Glyph

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« Reply #30 on: <01-31-11/2209:19> »
The cost of that 'ware actually runs closer to 32 BP - don't forget to add getting the restricted gear quality, twice.  But it's still worth it - the bonus to Agility alone boosts so many skills, and the increased Attributes can often free up more points to spend on skills.

The whole specialist vs. generalist debate is interesting, because some roles fall more into the latter category.  Sammies get the heat for being one-trick ponies, but honestly, they are one of the easier roles to "multi-class".  Mages and hackers, on the other hand, have roles that are actually comprised of a number of Attributes, skills, and gear, and they usually need to make painful sacrifices to be meaningfully good outside of their area.  Covert ops is a similar broad role, but one that is easier to break into narrower roles.

My characters tend to be either dual specialists (face/sammie, etc.), or specialists with a wide spread of other skills.  Mainly because I would get bored if they could only do one thing well.  I think of shadowrunning as something involving information gathering, people skills, planning, infiltration, combat, and exfiltration.  If you can only do one of those roles, you will likely be bored a lot of the time.  Not just the purely combat types, either.  If you can, say, dig up data, but aren't good at sneaking, talking to people, or handling yourself in a fight, you will probably be as bored as the mono-focused fighter.

That depends on the focus of the campaign, though.  If everyone is playing combat types, your generalist might be as valuable as gold to them for his ability to negotiate pay, scout out the area, etc.  Or, the runs might be nothing but combat, and your well-rounded guy will be a second-rater with a bunch of extra skills that he never gets to use. 

Kontact

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« Reply #31 on: <01-31-11/2232:27> »


I was wandering what cost it would be, but 22 BP is quite cheap...

Well, it's really 22bp worth of gear and then 10bp worth of restricted gear qualities.  Still, it's 8 stat points just from the suprathyroid and the r4 toner.

The point of beefing your attributes at chargen is that they are much harder to raise during play with karma.  Conversely, skills are cheaper to raise in play unless that skill is very high.  So, by min/maxing for your generalist, you end up with a guy who has as much put into his core stats as possible, by bp and by gear.  Lots of soft-maxed attributes and low-level skill groups.  2 Karma is enough to get a specialization.  4 is all it takes to get 1 rank or raise from 1 to two.  A group is ten for 1 or 1->2.  Only a few sessions will have your generalist filling out from 5-12 dice to 8-15 dice at a bevy of skills.  Now you're a generalist.  Meta-gaming, maybe, but there's always a backstory that can explain a gifted type of runner who never had to work very hard since everything came so easy.  "I line up the dot, pull the trigger and the bullets hit the target.  Why would I need to practice that?"

But, branching is basically what a Sam does.  Even a tricked-out, killer Sam.  He hits his ceiling for advancing in his main role, and branches out into supporting roles.  He swaps out meat for augs until he is an unassailable force of action.  New muscle fibers, new brainmeats, that good stink, bones like a tank, genemods, nano-colonies, every bit of awesome he can stuff into his quivering post-human form.


Edit: Getting swooped by Glyph is like getting the thumbs up from mighty Zeus of SR.  Seriously.  Glyph is uncanny about being exactly correct.

Sichr

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« Reply #32 on: <02-01-11/0306:17> »
As factualy I`mworking at R&D and my professional skills tend to be very social (as Im graduated social sciences) and I work mainly in the field of indutrial communication systems, I m part of the team that fits many roles just because we are specialists in our tasks. I also have aquite good longsword fencing training and I do swimming and jogging. And, of course, shadowrun. With all of this ++ my girlfriend, I have no time to learn or train much other things and have more other interrests, in fact, Im glad that I have time to read some literature from time to time or watch some movie.
If you want to be an expert in something, you need at least 40.000 hours of constant praxis. That deffinitely means, that if you are not some longliving pointy ear, you have a chance to become really good just in a few things.
Yes. Talking about IRL now.
The game should be different just because of advanced training and learning technologies (also a part of my pro-field). It should give you grat advantages with all the augmentations. That`s cyberpunk. Using your physical and mental abilities as a tool to get the best out of the world while doing it your own way.
What I think is that the jack-of-all-trades must have is a strong self-concept that would make sense of his selected skills and make them interconnected to become a part of viable/playable personality. so that means, if you want to create this kind of character, you should first find this ..hmmm. ???focus of personality??? and then build a character around it. You shouldnt start from attributes and skills. It takes much more than just a good math and knowledge of the rules...

IMHO...

Damnyankee

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« Reply #33 on: <02-01-11/0853:54> »
"My father was a shadowrunner, or so they say.  I never met him, he died before I was born.  I grew up reading everything I could about them, the comics, the trids. I was reading shadowsea by the time i was 12.  I wana be a shodowrunner like my dad, thats why I have hand razors, and an implant comlink, and...."


The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #34 on: <02-01-11/0925:34> »
My character, based upon Michael from "Burn Notice" (neat that it all ties in), was 400 BP.  All stats except for Edge were 3, and all 24+ skills were either 3 or 4.  Enhanced articulation, reflex recorders, muscle toning, bone density, cybereyes (completely tricked out), smartlink, and wired reflexes 2 were all I needed to get the physical edge he required to perform.  They didn't even need to be that high up; only WR were above rating 1.  A good internal commlink with some high performance Firewall and some black IC protected his PAN, and opened up the possibility of getting some good programs for hacking, later.

He didn't do any one thing great, he could just do whatever the team needed to infiltrate a location.
There is no overkill.

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Dakka

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« Reply #35 on: <02-01-11/1239:43> »
Move by wire is better than Wired Reflexes.  It's restricted so you would need some extra BPs to get it at creation, but it fits nicely into the hole left by your Wired Reflexes as an upgrade later.

I disagree that Sam, Fiona, and Michael all share the same skillset.  There are some major overlaps in asskicking and name taking but Sam is clearly more of a face, Fiona is a demolitions expert and firearms expert (rank 6 firearms group instead of 4), and Michael is an infiltration specialist.  You don't see Sam rappelling off of the roof. 

Damnyankee

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« Reply #36 on: <02-01-11/1245:45> »
You don't see Sam rappelling off of the roof.
No but they often remind us he was a SEAL, so we know he could do it.. just that he doen't want to rumple his Hawaiian shirts. And Fee has been a face a few times (well, a skin anyway...)

DY

Sichr

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« Reply #37 on: <02-01-11/1317:00> »
huh... R U talking about some series??? Cannot get any sense myself from those posts :D

FastJack

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« Reply #38 on: <02-01-11/1357:06> »
huh... R U talking about some series??? Cannot get any sense myself from those posts :D

They are talking about Burn Notice.

Dakka

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« Reply #39 on: <02-01-11/1651:30> »
You don't see Sam rappelling off of the roof.
No but they often remind us he was a SEAL, so we know he could do it.. just that he doen't want to rumple his Hawaiian shirts. And Fee has been a face a few times (well, a skin anyway...)

DY

Right, but he's not a specialist in it anymore.  There is clear overlap in their skillsets, but I would say they are closer to a group of specialized runners than a group of generalists.

Damnyankee

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« Reply #40 on: <02-01-11/1706:12> »
I would counter that argument by saying: when you are all the same  relatively speaking, you are generalists and not specialists. 

Damnyankee

Bradd

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« Reply #41 on: <02-01-11/1859:13> »
They're not all the same, though. Just comparing their "spy" skills (Social and Stealth group), they differ greatly. Michael excels at all of them (5+), Sam is pretty good (3-4), and Fiona is a bit rough (2-3). Sam and Fiona both have specializations in Seduction that put them on Michael's level, but only for that approach. They also both have extensive contacts to back up their overall specializations. Sam's a fixer and recon guy (including sniping), Fiona makes things go boom.

Glyph

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« Reply #42 on: <02-01-11/2217:15> »
Specialist vs. generalist is mainly something to consider at char-gen.  Afterwards, generalists get better at what they do, while specialists spread out.  This is what makes elite mooks such as the Tir Ghosts better than the PCs - the combination of being really good, and having lots of skills, rather than one or the other.

I will mention one thing about Karmagen.  Traditionally min-maxed characters will tend to come out slightly better than standard 400 BP characters (yes, even with the errata), but generalists will come out FAR cheaper, due to the lower costs of low to mid-level skills and Attributes.  In build points, a skill of 6 costs the same as two skills of three, or three skills of two.  In karmagen, a skill of 6 costs the same as three skills of three and a specialization, or five skills of two and a skill of one.

Walks Through Walls

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« Reply #43 on: <02-03-11/0853:34> »
Gun Nut,

I have thought about making a character based on Michael from Burn Notice, and would be interested in seeing your 400 BP version based on him. I hadn't thought about base lining all the attributes, and am now intrigued.

Also I'm not sure that their skills all overlap as much as they complement each other. They each have some low level skills that the others excel at while having their own specialties. 

I cannot wait for the next season to start.
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Digital_Viking

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« Reply #44 on: <02-03-11/0911:14> »
Gun Nut,

I have thought about making a character based on Michael from Burn Notice, and would be interested in seeing your 400 BP version based on him. I hadn't thought about base lining all the attributes, and am now intrigued.

Also I'm not sure that their skills all overlap as much as they complement each other. They each have some low level skills that the others excel at while having their own specialties. 

I cannot wait for the next season to start.

Somewhere I have a thread where I was trying to make a character based on Guererro from Human Target (Similar to Michael, being a generalist) - folks gave me lots of good advice there.
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