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Specalized vs. flexable characters

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Damnyankee

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« on: <01-29-11/1724:08> »
Both the setting and rules lend toward specialized characters.  Anyone ever successfully play a "Jack-Of-All Trades, Master of none" Character?  If you where to make one, how would you go about it?  Skill wires?  Something else?

Damnyankee

topcat

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« Reply #1 on: <01-29-11/1815:55> »
As high as you can in attributes (especially Edge), as many skill groups as you can swing (1-3pts) and broad-impact augmentations.  Skillwires certainly don't hurt and an expert system will allow Edge to work for you. 

Damnyankee

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« Reply #2 on: <01-29-11/1823:35> »
If you go super high edge then your really more of an edgerunner than a Jack of all trades, though you could be flexible.   

Damnyankee

Glyph

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« Reply #3 on: <01-29-11/1909:26> »
The trick to versatile characters is threefold:

One, make liberal use of the many Attribute, skill, and dice pool modifiers out there.  This is a world of dystopian transhumanism - you can become superhuman by selling bits and pieces of your humanity, or you can be someone gifted with otherworldly power - and alternately feared and envied by mundane metahumanity.  The rules reflect this reality, which is why augmentations and adept powers give you such cheap power boosts.

Two, don't spread yourself too thin, to the point of uselessness.  This varies from skill to skill.  Combat skills require the most dice for consistent success, since you will be making opposed tests with negative modifiers.  But it is best to stop at a point where you are still good at what you do, and not spread out until you can do everything, but do it poorly.

Three, look for useful synergies.  For example, if you are playing a speed sammie, with high Intuition and augmented Reaction, then the Stealth skill group would probably be a good buy for you, even at a comparatively low rating.  Likewise, a shaman who has a high Charisma can become a secondary face with just a bit of tweaking.  Also do this from a more organic, character background point of view.  Why does this character have all of these skills?  What does he use them for?  For example - he is a private investigator who works under the table - that would explain pistols, unarmed combat, the influence group, perception, data search, first aid, and pilot ground vehicle, among other skills.

Damnyankee

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« Reply #4 on: <01-29-11/2031:14> »
Two, don't spread yourself too thin, to the point of uselessness.  This varies from skill to skill.  Combat skills require the most dice for consistent success, since you will be making opposed tests with negative modifiers.  But it is best to stop at a point where you are still good at what you do, and not spread out until you can do everything, but do it poorly.
That brings up a good question, what is good enough?  As we are not talking about specialized characters, "as high as you can get," isn't the right answer.   How many dice do you need to not be a liability in a firefight? a knife fight?  the matrix?  when does a few more dice in a skill make it less of a party trick and something the team can rely on?  Every category will have a different answer as you suggest.  The benchmark I would use is "When the specialist of the team considers you useful."  IE the Sam knows you aren't on his level, but doesn't have to worry about you if you end up in a firefight, and when planing the ambush, he can count on you doing your assigned role, and making a contribution. 

Damnyankee

Glyph

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« Reply #5 on: <01-29-11/2245:19> »
That's a question that can have many different answers, depending on the overall toughness level of the campaign.  Personally, I would say (to be a reliable backup/assistant in a given area) 12-15 dice for combat skills and magical skills such as spellcasting or summoning, 10-12 dice for social skills or hacking, and 8-12 dice for most other things (perception, stealth, technical skills, etc.).  Others might give lower numbers.

I think one thing that trips a lot of people up is that they try to make a Jack of all trades by making a nearly-mundane human with average Attributes and skills, giving them a lot of weak dice pools in the 6-8 range, or even lower.  That's not really playing to the strengths of the system, either rules-wise or fluff-wise.

Kerebrus

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« Reply #6 on: <01-29-11/2331:24> »
it is my curse to be a proponent of both.  When it comes to designing characters for myself, it will often be the flexible / multipurpose character.  but I can easily turn on the min / max engine and completely push the limits of a particular specialty.

In 4th Edition, skillwires are not really worth it, as the skill softs cost as much as the conventional skills (in terms of BP's at character creation, and that is not counting the skillwires).  Sure, money is often easier to come by than karma, and a skillwire character might be able to swing downloading a demo version of a particular skill in a pinch.

that being said, I did make skillwires work for rounding out a character in previous editions, but the 4th edition team plugged that loophole.

and I would also put the question on the flavor of the game / GM.  If a GM has a group of specialized combat monsters, then their games will be combat oriented, and social interactions are a known and accepted weak point.  But if you are running a stock / pre packaged scenario (like MISSSIONS, or at a convention), then characters with a more diverse skill set (and an intelligent / ingeneous players) can handle some of the curveballs that come with those.

and characters with a degree of diversity allow for helpful skill overlap.

Sichr

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« Reply #7 on: <01-30-11/0336:41> »
That brings up a good question, what is good enough?  As we are not talking about specialized characters, "as high as you can get," isn't the right answer.   How many dice do you need to not be a liability in a firefight? a knife fight?  the matrix?  when does a few more dice in a skill make it less of a party trick and something the team can rely on?  Every category will have a different answer as you suggest.  The benchmark I would use is "When the specialist of the team considers you useful."  IE the Sam knows you aren't on his level, but doesn't have to worry about you if you end up in a firefight, and when planing the ambush, he can count on you doing your assigned role, and making a contribution. 

Damnyankee

Looks like to me that this would be one-man-army/team. Shadowrun is mainly cooperative game, Companions talking about different roles and such. You could play more of this roles, that is for sure. For instance Heavy weapon support/Face/Matrix support would be great combination...hell no. Those are specialized roles so specialized characters fit in.

BUT

If you really want to play jack-of-all trades, you should begin with lower stats and wide array of skill groups. About the dicepool...

That's a question that can have many different answers, depending on the overall toughness level of the campaign.  Personally, I would say (to be a reliable backup/assistant in a given area) 12-15 dice for combat skills and magical skills such as spellcasting or summoning, 10-12 dice for social skills or hacking, and 8-12 dice for most other things (perception, stealth, technical skills, etc.).  Others might give lower numbers.

Well. let say. Attribute 4 is better than average, attribute 5 is highly trained - that means specialized one. So if you would want to build Jack-of-all-trades for 400 BP, you would have some different skill groups OR wisely selected specializations with total dicepool of 8 -10(+/-metatype mods)...
It begins to interrests me. I would try to work out a character like that and post it here. Praxis beats the theory :)

Dakka

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« Reply #8 on: <01-30-11/1649:12> »
An agility of 5 doesn't make you specialized, it makes you versatile in agility related skills.  200 points in attributes is a must for a versatility character and another 40 on Edge.  To be decent at everything requires a high Edge, because non specialists are going to have dicepools around 8 to 10 and those don't make for outstanding successes.  Edge helps take the edge off of the smaller dicepools.  You can call them Edgerunners if you want but no other stat can be used on EVERY check, what is more flexable than that?

Sichr

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« Reply #9 on: <01-30-11/1707:58> »
An agility of 5 doesn't make you specialized, it makes you versatile in agility related skills. 

True, although there is a bit missunderstanding.
I`ve been thinkink about thiis table>
\
RATING 5  EXPERT
Star status: your expertise gives you a reputation.
Athletics Example: Athletic star: most major pro sports athletes
(MLB, MMA, NBA NFL, NHL, etc.).
Firearms Example: SWAT team, elite military (Rangers, Special Forces).
Technical Example: Top scientist. Published in peer-review journals.
Social Example: Incumbent politician, Grand Tour regular, corporate vice president.
vehicle Example: Ancients go-ganger. Military combat pilot with combat experience.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): Master’s degree.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): Ran the Seattle shadows for 5+ years.

I know it is about skills, but even attribute 5 is considered "Superior" and as such I understand that character exploits most of potential.
But to have 3 supperior atributes...f.e. Agilitiy, Charisma and Intuition/Reaction to be faster-than-light-marsman-face, well, I would say, this character doesn`t know what to want...

Damnyankee

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« Reply #10 on: <01-30-11/1819:13> »
You are saying that any character that is not specialized/min-maxed is a poorly built character, and I reject that.  Sure, its easily to build a grabastic mess of stuff that looks cool, but that doesn't mean that every flexible character is poor.  I think its about intent.   


damnyankee

Bradd

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« Reply #11 on: <01-30-11/1824:10> »
A high attribute means that you're highly talented and/or cross-trained. For an attribute with as broad an impact as Agility, "specialized" really isn't the right word for it.

Also, I generally assume that a character's overall skill levels and attributes are similar, especially at the high end. For example, skill rating 7 is "the best of the best," but that isn't really true unless you have a 6-7 linked attribute backing it up. When attribute and skill ratings differ by a lot, I adjust how I interpret the numbers. For example, somebody with Agility 3 + Infiltration 1 is a "beginner" who "has done this a few times." However, somebody with Agility 5 + Stealth group 1 is more than just a beginner. They may not have focused specifically on Infiltration as much as a typical "professional," but they are just as effective because of broad training and talent. In that case, I would estimate that the actual skill level is closer to novice or professional than beginner.

In short, the descriptions on p. 119 are for typical people focused on individual skills. It's a different story when you build a broad skill base with groups or attributes.

Kontact

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« Reply #12 on: <01-30-11/2029:01> »
You are saying that any character that is not specialized/min-maxed is a poorly built character, and I reject that.  Sure, its easily to build a grabastic mess of stuff that looks cool, but that doesn't mean that every flexible character is poor.  I think its about intent.   

The problem is that intent does not determine reality.  If someone intends their character to be a realistic "got laid off from ___ job and left SINless and now has to scrape by in the shadows to survive" type, then they are going to suffer the realistic fate of being largely useless and then dying.

Like you said in the first post, the rules and the setting skew towards specialist characters.  If you want to fight against that current, you're going to need every tool in the box to do it.  That's what min/maxing is.  Minimizing weaknesses while maximizing strengths.  Pretty much what a generalist character is entirely about.

Damnyankee

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« Reply #13 on: <01-30-11/2044:42> »
You are saying that any character that is not specialized/min-maxed is a poorly built character, and I reject that.  Sure, its easily to build a grabastic mess of stuff that looks cool, but that doesn't mean that every flexible character is poor.  I think its about intent.   

The problem is that intent does not determine reality.  If someone intends their character to be a realistic "got laid off from ___ job and left SINless and now has to scrape by in the shadows to survive" type, then they are going to suffer the realistic fate of being largely useless and then dying.

Like you said in the first post, the rules and the setting skew towards specialist characters.  If you want to fight against that current, you're going to need every tool in the box to do it.  That's what min/maxing is.  Minimizing weaknesses while maximizing strengths.  Pretty much what a generalist character is entirely about.
You have made your point that you don't think its possible.  I agree that its not easy.  But to continue to argue with me/us about it is not productive.  If you disagree with the concept of the thread, don't participate. 

damnyankee

FastJack

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« Reply #14 on: <01-30-11/2107:08> »
Take a breather boys. No need to start getting hot over some of the comments presented here. I think everyone is just trying to figure out the right definition of "flexible" before they go further.